Timely piece Irfan;

I reckon it will dismissed out of hand by some of the fellow travellers here -

it may even go unnoticed if the popularity of the Greg Barnes articel is anything to go by - 60+ posts witihn 24 hours is pretty good going by any OLO standard.

The cultural coalescence you describe is more like the Australia I am familiar with - and the more often we look to or are reminded of the common ground we share and not dwell on the petty annoyances - like those who constant harp on about the great Ham Sandwich Conspircy in Hume - the greater chance we can move forward.

I trust every one has the kind if Christmas they long for.

Great and timely article Irfan.

Irfan, you are a brave fellow. Embarking on the cultural outrage of wearing a Wallabies' jersey in NZ. That takes guts.

Thank you for your example of the mixing that sometimes comes naturally but so often is forgotten. The islands of conflict sit in a larger ocean of peace enjoyed by most.

sneekeepete thanks you your excellent posts throughout the various posts. Your contribution are ones which bring some great thought to these discussions. Much appreciated.

Fellow_Human, do muslims do Christmas tree's? If so is their a large "Harley" shapped package under yours? I hope so.

Have a great Christmas all wether you celebrate it as as a rememberance of the birth of Jesus or as a special family time.

Cheers
R0bert

Thank you Robert.

Merry Christmas.

Your post is refreshing, and heartening but...always a bloody but... the Christian side of the story isn't acknowledged in your Koran. Christ isn't just a holy man in Christian eyes. He is the Son of God. And Christians are celebrating the feast of the birth of Christ, the Son of God. Not the feast of Christ the son of Mary.

It is also true the Muslims and Christians of Bethelem have lived together in harmony for centuries. And given the Bethelemites likely conversion was initially from Judeaism to Christianity and then to Islam it is likely initiated by lingering previously held practices and respect for the birthplace of Christ and time simply has carried on the tradition.

The same cannot be said of a great many other areas of the world where forced conversion and destruction of each others religious places and symbols is par for the course.

While it is nice to enunciate the things that do bring us together, for longer term relationships it is best to also acknowledge our differences. In the interests of honesty it is best to remove those rose coloured glasses, Irfan.

ps Your friend was lucky wearing a Wallaby jersey. For had she been wearing a Springbok jersey, in Napier, would have seen you dodging abuse, rocks and other missiles. :-)

Irfan, thank you for a piece that strikes the right note for Christmas. You sound just like my Muslim friends here in Perth. While my Christian views are different in some respects, the agreements are greater.

Keith, the rosy colour of the message in Irfan’s article comes not from a pair of spectacles but from the same impulse that had Jesus tell us: “Love one another as I have loved you.” Let’s respond to him in the same spirit and put the theological differences aside, at least for Christmas.

Joy, peace and goodwill to all.

Irfan - admire your prolific articles and the humour that goes with them.

Crabby - it is good to know that a Christian can acklowledge the commonality between Muslims and Christians. I am always astounded at the hostility expressed by many of the self-proclaimed Christians on these forums.

True our similarities are far greater than our differences - however it is the differences that make life interesting. I can't imagine a world where everything was the same and everyone agreed all the time - actually I can; I think it is called heaven.

Peace

Trust you Sneeky
given that you mentioned the 'ham sandwich' saga and 'those who will dismiss' Irfans post, I guess you must be meaning 'me'.

I have no problem with Irfans clear expression of overlapping of cultures and traditions. That has never been my 'problem'.

The ham sandwich affair as Robert suggested is one of 'principle' rather than substance. When differing cultures overlap, only 3 things are possible, one must give way, or the other must, or they can be expressed separately. In the case of the ham sambo, it was decided by a minority culture that the prevailing one WILL give way (without any ifs or buts) and 'that' is what I and the other thousands of Hume shire residents were outraged by. The second most outrageous aspect of it is the trivialization by media personalities like John Fein (who being Jewish, and probably not a pork/ham eater) just could not see what the fuss was about.

Well based on the 'fuss' in the community, it WAS a big deal, because of the principle that minority cultures must respect the prevailing one.
Within that framework Irfans post makes complete sense.
It would stop making sense on the day he adds "And now lets 'tone down' Christmas" etc.. but he has never suggested such a thing (unlike some other Muslims) and therefore his contribution will go unchallenged by me and any reasonable person.

Keith does however point out an important issue for us, in that reducing God the Son to a 'mere prophet' is quite something. Tantamount to reducing Mohammed to a 'thief and warlord' and would be likely punishable by death in a place like Saudi Arabia.

But this is an issue which will always be the subject of faith, (the Lord Jesus being God incarnate, Son) and free will to believe or not believe.

You seem to demonstrate a very limited tolerance level toward Christians and a notable lack of sensitivity :) to such important parts of our lives. (sound like ur hearing an echo ? :)

So in conclusion, I welcome his post.

Irfan,

The qur'anic story is a nice gesture for Christmas and most appreciated (your fan club above loved it). Sooo very close but not quite the same...

Just to set the record straight - in the spirit of truth – perhaps you could have reported the real account from the people who where there?

For example Luke's account chapter 2:

30But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favour with God.

31You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus.

32He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David,

33and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end."

34"How will this be," Mary asked the angel, "since I am a virgin?"

35The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called[c] the Son of God.

36Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be barren is in her sixth month.

37For nothing is impossible with God."

Some kind of prophet, eh? Could you spot the difference?

Too bad no one said that about your prophet.

God loves you and so do I.

I am praying that this Christmas will be a special for you and that the real Jesus will become your Lord and Saviour.

Then we can celebrate the real Christmas together.

Yes a great Australian story especially about the Australian 'thugby' jumper.{of course I follow Ozzie rules}
BUT as you said you see Jesus as the Son of Mary whereas He is the Son of God. He, this same Jesus, died for our sins as our Saviour.
Moslems do not see Jesus as the Christ, do not see Jesus as the Son of God, do not see or acknowledge Him as their Saviour. Nor do they acknowledge his ascension to the right hand of The Eternal with His new glorified human body.
So moslems do not see or worship the Christian Jesus.They only see the son of Mary, they only see a human prophet. They do not even see The Eternal - Jesus' Father - all they see is allah.
Righto! now you politically correct writers get me for being cruel, crude and insensitive!
I will admit that I am zealous for my Saviour and my God and I do not like to see Him maligned, that is have Him paganised-that's all. numbat

nice whitewashing of the town of bethlehem, irfan.. those fuzzy little suicide bombers all gathered round celebrating the birth of a man from the people they are sworn to commit genocide against.. christians have been leaving beit lekhem (it's original hebrew name) in vast numbers for a long time, because quite simply, the city is completely unliveable, and the muslim population is completely radicalised..

nice to see you taking a brave stance against those that would be racist towards you aswell, telling your mother and aunt to remove their headscarves.. that's far more insensitive than the vast majority of australians would ever be to them - and you weren't even in australia! am i supposed to feel guilty for being the same colour as those drunken rioters?

your articles all hint at the same - we're such a happy friendly little bunch, and you're all racist pigs who don't want to understand us.. i'm not saying you're not a happy, friendly bunch, it's the accusation that gets thrown on me that i object to..

that said, have a very merry christmas irfan.. my muslim friends all love the holiday too, mona who lives in the apartment next door makes beautiful trifle and shares it with everyone in our building.. it's the spirit of love and kindness that bring us all together on christmas day.. your point about the inherent cultural mixing that goes on in australia rings true.. i wouldn't have it any other way..

HAM SANDWICHES.. just a little follow up there.. which I neglected to mention previously.. I'd be quite happy for the Mayor to have arranged for a table or 2 of Halal food in addition to the regular food. How hard is that ? A simple and obvious non discriminatory non exculsionary solution to a pretty simple problem.
What amazed me is that John Fein on 774 ABC at the height of the problem could not find such an idea in his own (usually) fertile grey matter.

In fact I would say that IS the essense of the Christmas spirit, to include as far as possible, etc.. reaching out in love.

Today I was going past a Pharmacy in Boronia, and they have a very large 'Nativity' scene and a Santa in the Window. They also have a kind of scroll which describes the basic birth of Christ story. Very nice.

ROBERT to answer your question on how I might react to a sex shop, it is with disgust and annoyance. We have a large supermarket one on Canterbury road. My answer is from the pre-amble to the constitution of Australia "Humbly relying on the blessing of Almighty God" i.e. the God known from our Judao Christian heritage. So, I don't see any conflict in a mayor saying 'NO sex shops in OUR turf' :) I don't see it as 'imposing' either. I see it as loyalty to the spirit of our national constitution.

If our preamble said 'In honor of Baal and Ashteroth' I would not have much of a leg up, but it doesnt. There is around 69% of Australians in 2001 who declared their 'Christianity' in various forms. I prefer not to introduce 'high places, baals and cult prostitutes' as Israel did each time it abandoned Yarweh.

I would rather see a national revival and then we would not be arguing about the issue.

Did you have some period of invovlement with a Charistmatic church Rob ? I'd guess u did at some stage. Possibly were let down by someone ?

Irfan, Nice post, kind words. Like holding a cross up to a vampire though for the usual crowd. Lives peopled with demons. All these negative people creating mischief rather than harmony - and at Christmas and often in Christ's name to boot.

Their constant haranging; their use of wounding words and wind up rather than just posit new ideas or opinions; their misleading assertions about others' posts suggests to me a hatred and obsession that goes beyond normal discourse and engagement.

One more thing. Talking to my aunty today. It's been forty years since her boy Jonny and two other lads died in a car accident. Aunty just said, with a tremor in her voice that would break most fella's hearts: "It's been forty years but ..... it still hurts like it was yesterday. Christmas has never been the same."
So please take care on the roads.

Ifran,
You, as ever, are thoughtful, tolerant and open-minded – unlike a number of humans we have come to know. I hope that it is your kind of (non-denominational) faith, tolerance and understanding that succeeds in this world. Thankyou for your efforts.

I would also like to thank those in this forum for helping me clarifying my spiritual position in the last 6 months. Without the pros and cons from all sides, I would not have come to the simple conclusion that dogmatic religion is divisive and intolerant.

As a result, I no longer believe (or require) the divinity of Jesus (or any other god/prophet/deity) to feel secure in the knowledge that the greater universal power – whatever it may be – knows me and holds me in regard, based on my character rather than my earth-bound beliefs.

That some grip so tightly to their beliefs and cry so loudly reveals, to me at least, the insecurity of them. Object as you will, it does not matter to me. Spirituality is and should be personal – not some homogenous, rigid, group-fest…

I will continue to honour those who enact the true message of their faiths and respect their beliefs – and dismiss those who speak in one tongue and act in another.

May whatever god you worship show you the way to true peace, tolerance and humanity… have a pleasant holiday season… why not try keeping the spirit alive for 364 days…?

Hi Irfan Yusuf,

It was pleasant reading your nice post. However, just one thing, the Jesus in Islam is not the same Jesus in the Bible. According to Islam, Jesus is coming back to kill the pigs (the Jews) and break the Cross (the Christians) - just one of many discrepancies.

BD, I'm guessing that the mayor thinks he is honoring his version of "Almighty God", I'm assuming you know enough to recognise that Christains, Jews and Muslims all do worship the same God even if their understanding of his supposed nature may vary.

We definately have different views on the role one persons beliefs should play in anothers choices. We've been down that track before you and I.

I'm probably heading off topic with this answer to your question but here goes. I have had involvement in a variety of denominations, some specific individal letdowns but more a belief that there is no evidence that the christain god has an active role in the body which claims him as head. Penticostals just make the lie more clear than others. I found that christains were no more ethical, no more honest, no more caring than others who live by a value system which should encourage those things. I found I was really sick of the cop outs of "Christains aren't perfect just forgiven" and all the rest of the excuses. People are people, some are good, some are not and the best I can be is when I take responsibility for my own life and my own choices. Believe me it is a good life even with it's ups and downs (I'm guessing that you are too thoroughly indoctrinated to ever consider that proposition seriously though).

Have a good Christmas and thanks for what appear to be some balanced posts today (even if I disagree with some of the content).

R0bert

Irf

Thank you for your article. What a nice Christmas gift!

TO ALL POSTERS:

* Peace
* Hope
* Love
* Forgiveness

That's what I think Christmas is about.

MERRY CHRISTMAS ALL
Thank you
Kay

This family in Indiana, USA decorated their house with the following in Christmas 2002:

147,027 lights, 169 strobe lights, 35,834 feet or 6.8 miles of extension cords all of this is hooked to 204 computer controlled circuits.

http://www.computerchristmaslights.com/

All in the name of Jesus, apparently.. this site should please all you bible-bashers.. now we know why the US doesn't want to accept any global warming protocols.. this family is using up half of the world's coal!

And let's not forget this Christmas that the oldest religion on this continent was the Aboriginal Dreamtime (for want of a better term to summarise the complex web of beliefs and customs of the Aborigines), and that the fastest growing religion is actually Buddhism.

How about this Christmas we consider the scourge of consumerism. Anyone here familiar with the Aboriginal story of Tidilik the frog, who drank all the water, refusing to let anyone else drink it?

Here's an interesting story:

In 1991 when the Federal Government vetoed mining at Coronation Hill, Northern Territory, the then Prime Minister, Mr Bob Hawke, justified the decision on the ground that to proceed would violate the sacred beliefs of the local Jawoyn aboriginal community. He argued that the earth's resources should not be mined because the Jawoyn are convinced that the spirit Bula is in the area and, if disturbed, would visit great sickness and upon them.

Responding to criticism of the decision, Mr Hawke said that "it was remarkable in a Christian society that Australians were contemptuous of other people's beliefs. It's an enormous presumption for us to say to about 300 people, you are irrational, fancy believing that Bula is there. I mean, where is our God? It was wrong to criticise the Jawoyn's belief that disturbing Bula would unleash destruction" (The Age, 18.6.91).

Mr Hawke did not actually give reasons for the decision, simply stating that Jawoyn religion should not be criticised because, like Christianity, "it is founded on a bundle of mysteries."

And here's some thoughts about Buddhists and what they think of Christmas:

http://www.aboutulverston.co.uk/celts/buddhistchristmas.htm

'Fröhliche Weihnachten' from snowy Germany..

Ev exaggerates so. Half the world's coal ,really.These are low voltage lights Ev and you would probably use more energy driving to work in a day than these lights would use in a week.Has it ever occured to you Ev that while many celebrate Christmas not many of us actually believe that Jesus was the son of any God.Religion is based on hope because there is no factual evidence.

Go blow your trumphet in some one else's ear since you just too predictable and boring,just like all the other lefties who suffer from this singularity of thought deprivation.The mono-tones of the left cannot cope with the complexities of our world and they continually seek simple idealistic solutions to a real world,they have yet to experience in their cocoon of academia.

ev: There is Christianity and there is man made religion which includes big church buildings, bells and smells and pretty frocks and hats for the preachers. Christmas belongs to religion.
I acknowledge the birth of Christ but do not observe christmas.
Trees, presents, lying santa, parties, booze, lights etc have little to do with Christianity. numbat

I'd like to continue on from Kay's lovely post.

Irfan is talking about the spirit of Christmas, regardless of your religious beliefs.

With this in mind I wish every contributor to OLO all the best the season has to offer.

""Blessed is he who speaks a kindness; thrice blessed is he who repeats it."
Arabian Proverb "

Peace and happiness to all.

Dianne

Nice piece Irfan.
happy holidays.

Arjay - 'Ev exaggerates so. Half the world's coal ,really.These are low voltage lights Ev and you would probably use more energy driving to work in a day than these lights would use in a week.'

Obviously this was meant to be a topical joke. 'Tis the season to be jolly, after all.. Anyway I don't own a car, they are expensive to run and maintain. If you don't consider the light display to be just a little absurd, then you must live in a very strange world indeed.

Arjay - 'Religion is based on hope because there is no factual evidence.'

There are many many Christians who believe that the Bible IS factual evidence. Same with many Muslims and their Qur'an.

Arjay - 'Go blow your trumphet in some one else's ear since you just too predictable and boring,..'

This think this is the first time I've even mentioned religion in my posts. Most of them have been about unsatisfactory policing. I suggest you read them - there's not too many.

Arjay - '..just like all the other lefties who suffer from this singularity of thought deprivation.

Congratulations you are the first person to have ever called me a 'leftie'.

Arjay - 'The mono-tones of the left cannot cope with the complexities of our world..'

I guess you have such a grasp of the complexities of our world that you have to divide everything into either 'left' or 'right'. As soon as you saw the words 'Aborigine' and 'Bob Hawke' you start shrieking 'leftie! leftie!' like a little girl when a cockroach runs across the floor. No better than those squealing 'racism!'.

Arjay - '..,they have yet to experience in their cocoon of academia.'

Arjay I have worked as the following: waiter, kitchenhand, farmhand, warehouse picker/packer, construction labourer, removalist, landscaper, landscape designer, taxi driver, Mission Beat volunteer, sign-writer, electronics salesman, postman, and recently teaching English to those who can't speak it.. Yes I should really break out of my cocoon of academia.. thanks for your advice..

Try to get some more fibre in your diet this Christmas..

Q. What do they yell out in a muslim strip club?

A. Show us ya face

Ev,when you throw the unsubstanciated mud of ridicule,expect the acid tongue of criticism.The Christian religion has it's foilbles but it's philosophy has done much good in this world.

Religion represents the aspirational self and we as humans stop aspiring to be something better,we all might as well give the game of life away.

There is no good or evil,we can only move from the negative to the positive in the light of our experience and education.

Merry Christmas and appreciate what great country Australia is that affords many like you,the luxury to bite the hand that feeds you.

Arjay,
What good has religion done?
If it has done some good it means it has just fixed up the mistakes that it was responsible for in the first place.
If we did away with religion maybe there would be more love and spiritualism in the world.

Arjay, the two by far most brutal and devastating wars in the history of the human species (WW1 and WW2) were primarily conducted by Germany, Russia, France, England, America and Italy - all good Christian nations. Plus the American civil war. And that's just the wars with each other, not the ones with other nations, nor does it include the fine work of christian missionaries across the globe from those European empires and their colonising armies. But I suppose all these things are just 'foilbles' as you say.

Arjay - 'Ev,when you throw the unsubstanciated mud of ridicule,expect the acid tongue of criticism.'

My words aren't the unsubstantiated mud of ridicule, nor are your words the acid tongue of critism, in fact they more closely resemble the loose tongue of impatience.

Arjay - 'Religion represents the aspirational self and we as humans stop aspiring to be something better,we all might as well give the game of life away.'

Why do you need religion to inspire you? Just take a look at the BILLIONS of stars and galaxies on a clear night.. (preferably away from the city).. don't know about you but that keeps me going, in addition to this utterly astonishing blue-green planet that teems with life all around us and inside us, which we call the Earth.

Arjay - 'There is no good or evil, we can only move from the negative to the positive in the light of our experience and education.'

Good and evil are quite prominent in Christian philosophy, wouldn't you say? And do think Pol Pot wasn't really evil, he was just negative due to a lack of experience and education?

Arjay - 'Merry Christmas and appreciate what great country Australia is that affords many like you,the luxury to bite the hand that feeds you.'

I never payed out on Australia in ANY of my posts.. show me a single example of where I did.. Australia is an awesome country.. and the only hands that I do consider biting are those connected to people who speak before they think.

"Think twice." - (a Buddhist saying..)

Irfan, you always write enjoyable articles.

The bloke Jesus, was born around August, not December. The bible is a false account of letters and documents written more than 75 years after jesus and not by those ascribed to them. No mention of a nativity scene, nor a virgin birth. The Koran is just an interpretation of those letters.

Christmas is a foolish illusion when you take into account, it is the one time of the year when domestic and family violence dramatically increase around the world.

It is the time when traumatic accidents and death account for the most people.

It is the time when lots of so called non believers succumb to the illusion and follow the sheep into false joy, moral and fiscal debt.

It is a time when we have to put up with fanciful religious propaganda being forced down our throats, being told that all is well with the world as god is good and great.

It is the time when the deluded religious spew out their messages of how much good religion has brought to the world, yet not one of them can name the good things, except hope. Yet it's that hope the religious follow, that has constantly failed them throughout history, and continues to fail them today.

It is time when I stay home to avoid the hordes of obese whinging city slaves that invade our peace, trample, pollute and desecrate our natural clean environment. It is the one time of they year when we have to lock our cars and houses. It is the time when theft and crime in the area goes from zero to 4-5 incidents a day.

I much prefer August, very pleasant then. If I believed any of the religious crap, I would at least worship the reality and not the delusion the fools follow. So in August, I will sit down and say, poor bastard that Jesus bloke, they really stuffed up anything interesting he might have had to say.

Merry fantasy, and a happy delusion, pity about the peace and goodwill around the world

Alchemist, you're up early today saying "Bah! Humbug!" I presume you also don't believe in the weekend, a concept with religious origins (the Sabbath). The ancient Romans were scathing in their criticism of the Jewish practice of having every 7th day off as a holiday. Now of course, the weekend is universal.

I don't celebrate Xmas. However, I wish a happy safe and healthy Xmas to all my Christian friends, colleagues and fellow Australians.

Ari, the full weekend derives from the need for crowds at sporting events between the gentry. Originally free time on saturdays was just to watch a sporting or community event. Most only stopped work for church on sundays, then they began to give sunday afternoon off. It was only in the last century when people got a bit of power that the weekend began to take shape. Now we are losing it as the religious right elite(gentry of today), strive for more money for themselves. You never see a beaurucrat work weekends, or any day for that matter

Our calenda derives from religion as well, but like time and space are only illusions so they fit well with the illusion of religion. Having spent a lot of life in religion and studying it historically, it is all humbug. The historical facts are interesting. not the illusionary practise.

For most of my life, the weekend has meant work. Now in retirement, it is just another day.

Jewdism, like all religion, is only interested in power and control. Power over the people, and the control of society in religious hands, which it is now. I will wish everyone a happy weekend and holday, when the festive season results on positivity and not delusion. Keep father christmas, he is more real that the illusionary religious event.

Merry Xmas to comrades and "others" alike from me.
Merry Xmas to Graham Young et al who provide this excellent forum.
Merry Xmas Irfan Yusuf and my so called 'ethnic mates' out there.
Ozzie Ozzie Ozzie Oi Oi Oi indeed.

Buggar it,

Merry Christmas to everyone...regardless of how different we are.

The alchemist,

Delusions, illusions and fantasies - what a small world you live in.

"This is the day The Lord has made, let us rejoice and be glad in it"

God loves you and so do I. And that is real reality.

Meredith

Your post is still cracking me up! What a rort!

Coach

You always come across as an angry, horrible, so-called Christian who is trying to convert the world. For me, you are no better than those who you incessantly critisise and defame. Frankly, you make me sick. I wish BOAZ_David would have a go at you. BD and other committed Christians must be extremely embarassed by your behaviour on this and other threads on OLO. You old HUMBUG!

Such is life
Kay

heheh yeh Kay

i cracked up heaps on that one as well :P

Coach, I would reply to you in a reasonable, constructive manner, if I could find any semblance of fact or reality within what you say. Sadly you appear to lack any understanding of the subject you are deluded by. I would advise you to either study theological history, or shut up. It is apparent that you have no understanding of anything to do with the subjects you post on.

I really appreciate it when people point out where I am wrong regarding the history and veracity of religion. Sadly it is rare for them to be able to do this, as religion is what it is. Totally false and without substance, historically or in the present. With the wealth of knowledge that you have, surely you could point out to me, the great and wonderful things religion has brought to this planet. The loving benefits that religion has showered upon us and the care and diligence that religion has shown to the life forms of that exist here.

I am sure that you can show us how well true believers have heaped kindness and love upon the animals and other living beings here that were lovingly created by your god. How they reliigious turned the other cheek and were humble and loving in their dealings with the indigenous peoples of the world that they have encountered, or should I say destroyed. Just point me in the right direction to see the evidence of how well god fearing people have cared for your gods carefully planned and implemented creation.

But then again I may not be able to answer, as sometimes when I read what you say, I can't stop laughing at how sad your life must be in the depths of your god fearing deluded existence. I would be fearful of your god if it existed, considering the weight of evidence against it.

The alchemist

"I really appreciate it when people point out where I am wrong regarding the history and veracity of religion. Sadly it is rare for them to be able to do this, as religion is what it is. Totally false and without substance, historically or in the present."

This would have to be one of the best statements I have read on religion for quite some time.

You have to admit religion is pretty amazing. It is such an elastic concept. It can mean all things to all people and as such is totally meaningless and impossible to argue against.

Religion can be used to justify every cruelty, unfairness and exploitation there is and we see this happening daily at all levels - from heads of government to posters here. How can you rationally debate blind faith and the "Word of God"?

The alchemist,

My last message to you was just a courtesy post – no malice intended – but it appears you are all strung up and eager to attack.

You and your supporters are badly mistaking religion with relation.

I personally do not subscribe to religion and agree that it often is the source of most evil.

I enjoy a personal and intimate relation with God The Father through His Son Jesus; made possible by The Holy Spirit that is in me.

Contrary to what you CAN imagine; it takes humility to begin understanding what is beyond the human mind.

You have always found recourse to personal intimidation, from historicity to histrionics, to evade the simple questions that I posed and repeatedly invited your response but to no avail.

I won't bother you again. Your dogmatic stubbornness and hermetically closed mind is pathologically disheartening.

You are entitled to your opinions – may they be wrong, imagined or otherwise.

Your refusal to engage God in your life is the source of all your anxieties and fears.

Just remember: God is God and you are not; you are a mere human in dire straits for redemption that only HE can provide.

Ah! Boaz my friend - I merely use the Ham sandwich issue to point to some of the more tangential issues that seem to focus some minds when there are more important matters afoot.

And while I concede it is for some a matter of principle it struck me as a matter of bad judgement by the censor of cuisne at the time rather than a pointer to the type of insidious trend that some infer.

And as for Christians I think I have confessed to being one - and if I seem intolerant and insensitive I will need ot examine my conscious on that accusation.

I trust you had and yours had a good Christmas.

Rgds Kym

Coach, “I personally do not subscribe to religion and agree that it often is the source of most evil.”

What a perfect answer from someone that can only quote passages from the bible out of context and with little association to the facts.

Coach, blind faith is just that blind, as you show. As to answering you questions, Its hard to answer such rambling stupidity. The more you say the more you show that your understanding of the subject is zero.

I usually respect a persons views on their beleifs, even if I have a go at them, it is not personal. With apologies, I will not discuss scripture, as what is classed as that, is just a manipulated load of rubbish.

If you are to incompetent to make an effort to study the facts, then you place yourself within the realm of the enslaved blind, dumb, sad fools that follow illusional fantasies, that are destroying our planet.

Coach, your belief is false and history supports that fact. Like islam, none of you are prepared to support your beliefs with fact. All you can do is repeat like little rabbits, untrue and manipulated words. Start at the beginning and learn history. Ask any zealot to explain the difference between what religion says and the historical facts. They can't, they just disappear, just like your christmas, totally false.

But then again, I support you, as the need for cannon fodder is increasing within the religious world. Luckily wee non believing sane ones, have an intelligence that allows us to see reality. We see the danger and get out of the way to give slaves the chance to die for their god.

If your god is true, then your heaven will be filled with all the despots of history. As your god forgives all his followers, no matter what they do. Me I shall rejoice and go to hell with all the nice unbelieving, non violent people of the world. I'm sure they'll have Tassie wine there. As the wine in heaven is heavily diluted with fallacy and undrinkable.

Dear all

Thank goodness Christmas is over.

Hopefully the drinking binge has stopped, and the record roadkill in Queensland will not be repeated again.

The retailers have had their prayers answered - the last few days of credit card exercise had made up for a sluggish season until then. Hopefully the personal counsellors will not see a huge rise in their activites this autumn, trying to help those hopelessly in debt.

Pity that those nice warm feelings in this thread before Christmas did not produce a lasting effect.

Irfan is good at telling nice stories about himself. Do hope he will venture into the real world sometimes, without being selectively pollyanna-ish. (Not every ethnic immigrant gets a toffy private school education, and then has the wherewithal to live on the fat of the land and the oomph to propel oneself onto the priviledged.) But of course if he follows the craft of Alan Jones he would never do that. Jones and his likes seem to be our icons. Even David Flint put his admiration in writing whilst ivestigating Jones' misdeameander when Flint was in Howard's sinecure- Chair of ABA.

I often wonder what this OLO really achieves. I guess if it is like footy which is sometimes said to be an alternative to sending young men to war then it does serve some purpose.

cheers

Perhaps we can learn, for the new year, to be more focused (on the suject matter), more restrained (in point scoring), and above all more reflective of the 'reality' inhabited by the "other".

chek

Alchemist,

I usually appreciate your comments except for the 'religion is the source of all evil'.

Wars, crimes and all evils existed in all empires throught history way before any religion did. Control, greed, Gold, even a conflict over a woman (Helen of Troy) was a good enough reason to wage war, destroy nations and cultures.

Good and evil is part of every human being I guess. Its the internal battle that counts.

I took the kids to Dubbo Zoo and I personally prefer the way animals mark their territory: they just wee everywhere rather than killing everyone else! sounds good to me.

Peace,

Fellow_Human,

Hamdella alal salama! I can’t believe I am saying this but I really missed you.
I am also glad you visited your fellow animals and reconnected with nature. Perhaps The Alchemist needs a bit of that too except he probably thinks he is one of them (evolution theory).

Just on >> Its the internal battle that counts.<< thingy...

I don’t know if you rightly realize that all of the works you could ever do, and all of the prayers you could ever pray, all the internal or external struggles you could eve endure, cannot take the place of God’s way.

Only God’s way is perfect. God is gracious, compassionate, and merciful

God has provided THE way, and every man and women must choose whether to accept God’s way or try things on their own way (i.e. religion)

The alchemist,

Once again, a lot of smoke but no meat.

In your opinion:
>> Coach, your belief is false and history supports that fact.<<

So let’s consider your belief (or the lack thereof) your “REALITY” (I won’t quote any scriptures)

To assert that reality ends where your perceptions end is completely unjustified.

1. If you cannot see or otherwise perceive something does it mean that it doesn’t exist?
2. Is reality what is only real to you?
3. Could what is real to you be also not real (or false) to someone else?
4. Do you need to qualitatively and quantitatively experience something before you can perceive it as real?
5. What if the true nature of reality lies in an area inaccessible to experiment?
6. Is it possible to assemble ‘reality’ with enough pieces of evidence?
7. Is it possible that something is real but remains elusive and unprovable?
8. Could any part of your perceived reality be considered unknown or inaccurate?
9. Is it fair to assert that unless all reality fits your understanding it is deemed wrong?
10. Can a theory be considered real even if it lacks some evidence?

Please log-on to http://www.jihadwatch.org and see just what worldwide pagan islam is really up to. numbat

coach, first up congratulations on one of your best posts.
I liked the fact that it included
- A friendly greeting to a muslim (assuming that the non english phrase fitted into the rest of the greeting)
- some humour
- reasonable questions

Your questions make sense. I wish to add an item to the list
Is a theory void if one verifiable exception to the theory exists?

Cheers
R0bert

Coach,

Thank you for your clear well wishes in ‘north African’ accent. ‘Allayessalemak’!
I am beyond conversion but will watch with passion your attempt to convert Alchemist. HE (meaning ALchemist) is a tough one to crack. Be careful that HE (meaning Alchemist again!) will not pull you his way.

Numbat,

As per your request I visited the site you refer to in many posts. It basically picked a shallow understanding of Islam and Jihad often used by terrorists and stretched it to fit every muslim. Good propaganda website for simple readers looking for microwaveable answers. I am yet to see an objective website.

Peace

Hi all, I survived the sun, sleep, sand and glorious bird songs, and event he MARCH flied.. (thanx to aeroguard).

My time away was also a tribal re-union, and I met many characters from the book of Genesis (which I read again, with many amazing new insights) but they just had different names.

The man who sells bait, tried to promote a by law which would give him exclusive rights to sell bait, and prevent OTHERS from pumping their own ! If people of the same race will do this, now much MORE will those of different 'tribes' do so ?

F.H. "beyond conversion" ? well, please don't insult God, and I mean that in the nicest way. Many an old testament character were at their 'last gasp' and about to give up, when God met them at their point of need. He will meet you at yours also, and you will know Him.

Alchemist ... well refer my comment to Rob about the man who spilled his semen. (and then watch out crossing roads)

Robert, maybe now you see why I didn't jump on Coach :) for his 'boldness' ? "And I give you another comforter, who will lead you into all truth"......

Rob, was thinking about your description of your pilgrimage while reading Genesis over the hols. I'm edging towards the view that you had a predetermined idea of what you think God should be like, and when you did not see this in His Church/people, you felt He was not there. I thoroughly recommend a nice slow read of Genesis again, and even the hard bits like 'And God KILLED him,'(referring to a man who spilled his semen on the ground while having intercourse with his late brothers wife to make a child) and try to comprehend that "our" ideas of God, are conditioned by so many contemporary factors.

You suggested I might be 'so indoctrinated', etc, but if I am, it is my own doing. Come, join my club :)

Thanks Bronwyn, I'm sometimes lucid. F H, could you point me to where I said that, I think that was a quote by coach, If not, I stand corrected.

Coach,
1, No

2, No, reality is all things that can be quantified and measured.

3, Yes, That is the difference between a factual historical witness and an assumed understanding, or non witness account.

4, No, but you have to witness the experience to accept it as real, otherwise it is hearsay.

5, I am sure that it presently does, reality consists of many dimensions that interact within and outside our 3 dimensional world. But our understanding of reality lies in this material dimension, until we can access consciously and in a quantifiable manner others outside our current senses, then the answer is no

6, Yes, take the belief in god. The reality of god and its nature is determined by the evidence accumulated since the inception of the theory. The theory is that god is a wonderful, loving, caring entity that has created the universe and all its inhabitants, then humans in his own image. The evidence shows that those created in his image are the opposite to the theory and god has shown no compassion or care for any being that has been destroyed in his name. There is no factual evidence to support the theory

7, Yes when it becomes provable, until then it is just unsubstantiated theory.

8, Yes, if you speak of psychological reality as opposed to material reality.

9, No, I don't believe in god

10, A theory remains a theory until it changes to evidenced fact.

Robert, Not necessarily, if that were so then we would have no progress. A theory becomes void when it is proved unsustainable in its action, or it's implementation. Religion is a good example of a voided theory, unsustainable, evidenced by its actions and implementation.

Alch,

(off topic)

Yahoo used to have a chat room called "athiests verses xtains", it was dam funny i used to go all the time, did you ever know it?

The Alchemist,

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. I found some of the answers interesting and somehow a reflection of your inner thoughts and presuppositions.

Current events involve making logical assumptions which are closely related to the evidence - often with little room for speculation - and arrive at verifiable conclusions.

Conflicts arise when it comes to past events, relying on historical records and science alone we become limited because we lack observable facts and concrete proofs to support our theories.

The inferences require a deal of extrapolated guesswork. Inevitably non-scientific factors, errors, oversights, and our personal worldview often lead to inaccurate, inconsistent, illogical interpretations and naive conclusions.

Your wilful rejection of God’s Word – the bible – as a dependable historical source is at the root of our disagreements. I consent that the bible is not a science book and should not be used as such; but science and history could never categorically fault it.

Your insistence on refuting the very existence of God – or even a higher power – with so much credible evidence surrounding you is quite a feat in itself and puts you in a minority group

Boaz,

When I said 'beyond conversion' I meant I found God through another faith. For those of us with religion we believe there is only one God anyway. Not sure why would you interpret my comment as an attack on your faith.

coach

"Your insistence on refuting the very existence of God – or even a higher power – with so much credible evidence surrounding you is quite a feat in itself and puts you in a minority group"

I very much doubt it, coach. And where is this credible evidence?

Besides, which god are we talking here? There are so many of them - each with followers all claiming theirs to be the one true god and all spouting from different versions of "his" word. The very fact that none of you can agree is telling in itself.

It is understandable that egocentric creatures such as ourselves find it hard to accept that our existence is temporary, our lives finite and that we will all end up as nothing more than dust. I can understand that believing in a god gives some meaning, purpose and hope to those who need it.

Many of us, however, and I would argue the vast majority, don't need it. We feel at one with the earth and understand our place in it. We have no need to waste time and effort looking for some higher deity to explain our existence. We look to do good in the world because we want to, not to shore up some place in some imaginary heaven.

We accept your right to believe in a god. That is your perogative and we respect it. Just don't ram it down our throats. If you do we will end up hating your god instead of treating him with indifference as we do now.

F.H. I also don't know why you sense me feeling you attacked my faith :) I felt you were saying that you at never going to change from your current position re faith and I was merely pointing out that with God, nothing is impossible. You did not insult or offend me.

I was suggesting that conversion from Islam to knowing God through Christ is not beyond Gods capability.

But...different issue now, what is the story among Egyptians concerning their origins ? Do they relate it back to one of Noah's sons ? I'd guess the Jordanians would, and Arabs for sure, but I don't know about Egyptians. (this aint a trick question by the way, I'm doing a bit of research I guess)

Hey, I read an article on Irfs blog, about the various factions among the Muslims in Australia, mosques run on ethnic/language lines etc...
quite a cesspool of racism :) But no biggy, we knew this all along, as most humans are kinda territorial about those they associate with.

Today I was down at the local swimming pool. Lots of Aussies(most), some Tongan Islanders, Asians etc.. all getting along fine. Mainly because no one is trying to 'corden off' part of the pool for 'their' women, nor were they playing rough games which annoyed others etc How easy it is to have cultural/racial peace when people are basically culturally compatable. But the Tongan guy I befriended (a policeman) told me of growing resentment of the influx of Chinese over the past 5 yrs. Watch that space.

Those who object to Christians defending the Biblical Jesus against the Qur'anic account should take note that the Qur'an directly challenges Christians to reject what they hold to be true about Jesus. Therefore, Christians must respond. The Qur'an demands a response from all who claim to believe in the Bible. It is not a matter of unity between Christians and Muslims, it is about truth. Will you acquiesce to a lie? That is what people are in the habit of doing these days for the sake of not wanting to offend.
The references to Jesus' birth in the Qur'an originate from the Infancy Gospel of Thomas (not the Gospel of Thomas which is a non-canonical compendium of Jesus' sayings). This is what the Wikipedia has to say about its authorship. "The Infancy Gospel of Thomas is, like many such texts, a pseudepigraphical work, for it claims within itself to have been written by 'Thomas the Israelite' (in a medieval Latin version). An historical Thomas (or Judas Thomas, Didymos Judas Thomas, etc.) is very unlikely to have had anything to do with the text: whoever its initial author was, he seems not to have known anything of Jewish life except for the Passover observance, and certainly had a completed Gospel of Luke to refer to."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Infancy_Gospel_of_Thomas

"Jesus spake when he was in the cradle, and said to his mother: 'Mary, I am Jesus the Son of God, the Word, which thou didst bring forth according to the declaration of the angel Gabriel, and My Father hath sent me for the salvation of the world'"
http://www.octc.kctcs.edu/crunyon/CE/Koran-Rushdie/Koran/infancy_gospel.htm

Matthew's gospel reads, "Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly. But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, 'Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.'" - Matt. 1:19-21

Boaz,

Thanks for your comment. I guess if I apply your logic I would say something like "Boaz, you are a good man and hopefully one day THE TRUE God will reveal himself to you" how does that sound?

I guess it is your 'exclusivity' to God that I find interesting..can't tell if its insecurity, naivity or just plain ego..

Crusader,

The Quran is not challenging Christians on Jesus but confirming the contents of the bible. The trinity is a non-biblical related philosophy and apart from it, there is no difference between the Quranic Jesus and the Biblical one.

Rather than challenging Quranic jesus here is a simpler suggestion: C14 (Carbon 14 technology) dig out the oldest scripture of the Bible and you will be amazed to see the resemblence. Today's common bibles were re-written early last century. Ask Boaz!

Peace

[Comment deleted and poster suspended for flaming]

"The Quran is not challenging Christians on Jesus but confirming the contents of the bible. The trinity is a non-biblical related philosophy and apart from it, there is no difference between the Quranic Jesus and the Biblical one."

First, the Qur'an in many places directly addresses the "People of the Book", [I]Ahl Al Kitab[/I], the Jews and Christians, which demands a response from them in one way or another. Surah 5:15 charges Jews and Christians with having concealed from their scriptures what has been revealed by Muhammed asserting him to be an Apostle.
"O followers of the Book! Indeed Our Apostle has come to you making clear to you much of what you concealed of the Book and passing over much; indeed, there has come to you light and a clear Book from Allah;"

But the most irreconcilable disagreement between the Qur'an and the Bible is the death of Jesus [Isa in the Qur'an] which the Qur'an explicitly denies. "And their [the Christians] saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa [Jesus] son of Marium [Mary], the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure." - Qur'an surah 4:157

The Bible affirms Jesus death, " It was the third hour when they crucified him [Jesus]. The written notice of the charge against him read: THE KING OF THE JEWS. They crucified two robbers with him, one on his right and one on his left. Those who passed by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads and saying, 'So! You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days, come down from the cross and save yourself!'" - Mark 15:25-30 (NIV)

Crusader: There is Christianity and the Bible.
There is pagan islam and the koran.
As I have said previously "By their fruits you will know them"
By the way you chose a strange name as a pagan moslem lover - crusader! numbat

What Irfan fails to mention is that while the Koran mabye mentions Christ in a good light here or there, it denies the crucifixion, denies Mary was a virgin, and throughout most of the Koran condemns Christians as liars, cheats, disseminators of the truth, and so on.

It further encourages the murder of people of the book on numerous occassions (I can find the specific sections if anyone wishes, although just open pretty much any page of the Koran & you will find hateful stuff towards non-Muslims)

Irfan, the problem with Muslims today is that too many follow the Koran literally, which means that those things I mentioned above become real, hence the suicide bombings, beheading of Christians in Indonesia, attacks by Muslims on churches here & abroad (five burnt after the Cronulla riots).

Words, words, words, Irfan. That is all you are. Form a group that protests out the front of radical mosques like Sheik Hilali's Lakemba, and I'll join you.

Until then, how can you have any credibility?

Crusader,

The disappearance of Jesus (pbuh), regardless of the Quranic story is complex and confusing. It gets more confusing the more you research it. Early Christians (and old gospels) had different theories on Jesus and the wisdom of his disappearance.

Jesus story in the Quran does not confirm or deny his death. Islamic philosophy on prophets is that they are all mortals and they all die. How did Jesus leave the earth is not a ‘faith matter’ in Islam. The Quran is concerned with the commandments and contextual wisdom of prophet’s stories but all interpretations cannot break the commandments.

When you say the Quran addresses people of the book because the prophet Mohamed (pbuh) was challenged by the people of the book at the time.

Benjamin,

Obviousley you never read the Quran.
Mary is the only woman mentioned by name in the Quran and have a full chapter on the virgin birth of Jesus (pbuh).The Quran describes people of the book, especially Christians with caring and loving words. God asked them ‘not to exagerrate’ their faith by taking a concept that questions their monotheism.

http://www.musliminsight.blogspot.com

Peace,

"Jesus story in the Quran does not confirm or deny his death"

Fellow_human, what do you think of the part of surah 4.157 which reads, "they did not kill him [Jesus/Isa] nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa)"? This is at least a denial of the gospel account of Jesus death, even if it does not deny that he died in some other way.

Crusader,

It’s a little more complex than that. There are 33 references for Jesus story in the Holy Quran. The way Jesus died or was lifted up in the Quran is and remains a mystery. Ahmad Deedat, a Muslim scholar developed a theory that he (Jesus) maybe was on the cross but God lifted him up from there (‘and they did not slay him for certain’). The how, when and why Jesus left the earth is a reserved right to the creator.

None of the above is a faith related issue for Muslims. Jesus is clearly mentioned as the word of God, his messenger and spirit of mercy and tolerance and no Muslim is or should argue that because it is part of the faith. The Christian faith stretches it further into the son of God and Jesus is God type of beliefs which is inconsistent with the first commandment in the Torah. If the Torah prophesised the Trinity there should be no more Jewish people then.

Peace,

Somewhat belatedly, happy Saturnalia to you all, kids. Really. Just because my good wishes are historically accurate doesn't mean they're less genuine.