Jayb,

I'm very strict with my kids on being honest, even if it is against themselves:

Two verses from the Quar'an:

“O you who believe! Fear God, and be with those who are true (in word and deeds).” (Quran 9:119)

or

"And, do not cloak (and confuse) the truth with falsehood. Do not suppress the truth knowingly. (The Noble Quran, 2:42)"

Here is an example of what Muslims are taught about honesty:
http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/1669/honesty/

Whoever is giving you this information is playing you for a fool. To protect yourself you need to think a bit more critically and follow up on the facts (in this case the teachings of Islam).

“Reliance of the Traveller: A Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law”, is an authoritative translation of a classical text and Section r8.0 “Lying” will provide the rulings according to the Shariah.

Nowhere does it say “it is permissible to lie to non-believers” or a person being a non-muslim makes it permissible to lie to them. A full online pdf version is available here: https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/the-reliance-of-the-traveller.pd

I'm sure that's what we all teach our kids. but:

While the Qur’an encourages honesty between believers (Sura 40:28), deception directed at non-Muslims, generally known in Arabic as taqiyya, has full Qur’anic support.

The Qur’an (Sura 2:225, 3:28, 3:54, 9:3, 16:106, 40:28, and 66:2) establishes the religious legitimacy of breaking oaths, lying, unilaterally violating treaties, and generally scheming against non-Muslims. Allah Himself is described as “the best of schemers” (3:54, 8:30, 10:21), and Muhammad declared, as a justification for murdering unarmed prisoners after offering them safe passage, “war is deceit” (see the Hadith collection of Bukhari, vol. 4, book 52, nos. 268-271).

The Qur’an and later sources command the obedient Muslim to be engaged in eternal war, jihad, with the non-Muslim world until the supremacy of Islam over the entire world is complete. More than 120 times ((2:193, 4:89-90, 8:12, 8:39, 9:5, 9:11, 9:25, 9:29, 9:39, inter alia; and see here for detailed discussion) the Qur’an calls Muslims to jihad until Islam is the only or dominant religion in the world.

what is the value of a treaty with a country under the control of Muslim extremists who subscribe to this iteration of Islam? The answer to that question comes from Muslim scholars themselves: "By their very nature, treaties (with non-Muslims) must be of temporary duration, for in Muslim legal theory, the normal relations between Muslim and non-Muslim territories are not peaceful, but warlike" (Majid Khadduri, War and Peace in the Law of Islam, Baltimore: The Johns Hopkins Press, 1955, p. 220); and “…open-ended truces are illegitimate if Muslims have the strength to renew the war against them [non-Muslims]" (Ahmad Mahmud Karima, Al-Jihad fi'l Islam: Dirasa Fiqhiya Muqarina, p. 461, quoted by Raymond Ibrahim.

For a more graphic example, note the comments of an Australian Muslim cleric Abu Bakr, also known as Abdul Nacer Benbrika :

"I am telling you that my religion doesn't tolerate other religions. It doesn't tolerate (them). The only one law which needs to spread, it can be here or anywhere else, has to be Islam.”

Cont

cont

Along the same lines, in Kuala-Lumpur (Malaysia), Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadi-Nejad declared that: “... Islam will soon be the domineering force in the world...the world will be in the hands of Islam over the next few years” (ITAR/TASS Russian news agency, March 5, 2006 quoted here and here based upon here).

In March 2009, Saudi legal expert Basem Alem publicly echoed similar sentiments:

As a member of the true religion, I have a greater right to invade [others] in order to impose a certain way of life [according to Shari'a], which history has proven to be the best and most just of all civilizations. This is the true meaning of offensive jihad. When we wage jihad, it is not in order to convert people to Islam, but in order to liberate them from the dark slavery (i.e., adherence to other religions) in which they live.”

Mustafa Mashhur, explains some of the fundamental concepts of the Muslim Brotherhood ideology:

- "...the Islamic Ummah [nation]... can regain its power and be liberated and assume its rightful position which was intended by Allah, as the most exalted nation among men, as the teachers of humanity..."

- "It should be known that Jihad and preparation towards Jihad are not only for the purpose of fending-off assaults and attacks of Allah's enemies from Muslims, but are also for the purpose of realizing the great task of establishing an Islamic state and strengthening the religion and spreading it around the world..."
There can be no reconciliation between such an ideology and the western concepts of peace, freedom and democracy.

While lying to the faithful is Haram, lying to the Kaffir is not.

Jayb; That of course means that Oaths swearing loyalty in
Nationalisation ceremonies and in courts are meaningless.

But Jayb you are being dishonest in not providing the name of the person who is interpreting the Quran in this manner. What is this person's name?

As for quoting the words of convicted criminals and extremists to represent Islam that is a cheap stunt. We are discussing the teachings of Islam not of those who have gone against the traditional teachings.

Grateful: the name of the person who is interpreting the Quran in this manner. What is this person's name?

This is a deflection.

Just about every Quote I have given you has had the name of the person translating it. You obviously only see what you want to see.

Grateful: As for quoting the words of convicted criminals and extremists to represent Islam that is a cheap stunt. We are discussing the teachings of Islam not of those who have gone against the traditional teachings.

They are moslems & they are taken very seriously by most moslems in the World including Australia.

Bazz: That of course means that Oaths swearing loyalty in Nationalisation ceremonies and in courts are meaningless.

Of course they are. It’s not OK to lie to a moslem but it is to a Kaffir. That is something you cannot deny, grateful. The Koran is quite specific on that.

UK & Sharia Law, not in Australia yet, but it’s being pushed a tiny bit at a time. Fences around swimming pools, separate days for men & women, Sharia Courts, no Christmas, Easter, Halal payments, anything that “might” offend a moslem is demanded to be stopped or it’s a declaration of War if it isn’t. It’s Australia. Assimilate & accept out Laws & Customs or leave. Scrimple really.

https://www.facebook.com/OfficialBritainFirst/videos/1212883368856922/

https://www.facebook.com/BIRMINGHAMCRUSADER/videos/1725240964460076/

It’s good to Rape White women.
http://freedomdaily.com/muslim-professor-refugees/

I guess you are pretending to be a Moderate moslem. Let me remind you of the Words of the esteemed P.M. of Turkey. “There are no moderate moslems. The term ‘moderate moslem’ is ugly & offensive. There is no moderate Islam, Islam is Islam.”

Last Friday I just had my third Major Surgery for the year. A Left Elbow Olecranan Bursectomy. The Surgeon took a Golfball size Crystalized Growth from my Elbow, Shaved a Spur & repaired the hole my WD40 was leaking out of. It’s been a fun year.

Anyway. Merry Christmas to everybody & pray next year isn’t as bad as this one has been World Wide.