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The Forum > Article Comments > A primer on Islam and Islamism > Comments

A primer on Islam and Islamism : Comments

By Babette Francis, published 30/11/2016

It is not only a religion but a totalitarian political ideology which encompasses every detail of life including how one washes oneself.

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Failing to "manage" Pauline Hanson? What a self-opiniated, arrogant twerp Paul Kelly is. He, his colleagues in general, and our sleazy media are a disgrace: always whining about their own freedoms to operate, but trying to gag someone elected by the people to speak for them. Hanson is not to be managed by hasbeens like Kelly.

Babette Francis is too kind about the general ignorance of Islam in this country; Kelly and his kind know nothing about Islam; nor do Australian politicans, apart from Pauline Hanson, who has the guts to speak up about the threat. The shrillness of the morons criticising Peter Dutton for his truths about the ratty old autocrat, Malcolm Fraser and Lebanese no-goods clearly shows that dumb Australia still hasn't woken up to the truth about Islam and the menace it is to Australia and the West.
Posted by ttbn, Wednesday, 30 November 2016 10:34:32 AM
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as abhorrent as Islam is, so is socialism. That is why the left are so quick to cover up, hide and tolerate the intolerable. The left are also extremely intolerant of what is good and wholesome like families with a dad and a mum. Both socialism and Islam are death cults.
Posted by runner, Wednesday, 30 November 2016 10:40:54 AM
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I remember reading a scholarly expose of Islam a while ago in which it was claimed that if Muslims are challenged to deny their beliefs, then according to the Quran is is all right for them to lie. I would therefore take with a grain of salt, the low figures of Muslims who don't like what ISIS is doing. Beware of the Trojan horse within our midst.

David
Posted by VK3AUU, Wednesday, 30 November 2016 12:04:48 PM
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Babette. A most enlightening essay. I was once asked if I could identify a 'moderate' Muslim or "where are the 'moderate mulsim voices?. Thinking of an answer, I was compelled to distinguish, not between a shia or sunni (no caps on those nouns you notice) muslim, but to ask, "is the person a 'Meccan' or a 'Medinan' muslim?.
As there is no 'official' delineation between the two in the muslim community, perhaps it would be a possible way to commence a conversation? Until there is that distinction, I think it would be unwise to allow any into the country. Our humanitarian or Syrian quota could be readily filled with Christian, Minoan, zadiki and a number of other 'non-muslim sects.
Posted by Prompete, Wednesday, 30 November 2016 12:49:07 PM
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The majority of the world's Muslims live in 4 countries - Indonesia, Pakistan, India and Bangladesh.

Two of those countries oppressed their women so much that at some time they made one their leader.

Nevertheless they are all judged globally on the extremist cultural practices of a small number of members.

Islam (like Judaeism) is a Law-Giving religion from the Middle East that tells adherents how to conduct themselves in their daily lives.

Christianity (also a Middle Eastern religion - a breakaway Jewish sect) claims to do the same but it's only paid basic lip-service by its followers.

They all practice self-righteousness but only one sells itself door-to-door.

Runner - a religion that eagerly looks forward to a global apocalypse with the subsequent slaughter and eternal torture of all non-believers, that insists that redemption can only be achieved via human sacrifice, that murdered it's own God, that uses a symbol of torture and death as a logo and practices symbolic ceremonial cannibalism rituals - now THAT's what I would class as a Death Cult!
Posted by rache, Wednesday, 30 November 2016 2:06:59 PM
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Rache you have no clue when it comes to Islam, have no moral base to draw from secularism and then try and represent Christianity. Give us a break.
Posted by runner, Wednesday, 30 November 2016 3:08:47 PM
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rache: a religion that eagerly looks forward to a global apocalypse with the subsequent slaughter and eternal torture of all non-believers, that insists that redemption can only be achieved via human sacrifice.

That is true of all the Abrahamic Religions. Judaism is part Sumerism, Egyptian Atenism, Mazdaism, local Levant Religions & Zoastorism. Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism with a bit of Buddhism & Hinduism originally, then it picked up a bit of the local Religion of what ever lands it infused into. Islam is an offshoot of Christianity mixed in with a few violent local Desert Religions. Sorry runner but dems da facts.

Religions rise to prominence then fade away, or adapt to their times & the local population. They change from what they were originally so much so as to be unrecognisable from the original. Well, except Islam. Unfortunately it hasn't changed at all since it was founded in 639 AD. Not only has it been at War with every individual who is not moslem but it is also at War with itself since the death of Muhammad.

Therein lies the problem. The rest of the World has moved on & adapted to the changing customs & information as it became available. Islam has not. To Islam the World is still Flat. Slavery is still prominent, The Sword is still it's greatest weapon. Individuality, Freedom, Democracy are abhorrent ideals to Islam.

Barbette is right. Islam is a Military & Political System masquerading as a Religion that is not compatible with the Modern World. People of this Religion should & must be kept out of Western Countries for our safety. We must also stop interfering in Islamic Countries. The Boarders must be locked & those that have managed to leave the ME must be returned to the ME, or to an Islamic Country that will accept them.
Posted by Jayb, Wednesday, 30 November 2016 4:41:06 PM
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I see the abc again silent on the muslim man who ploughed his car into 11 people in the USA yesterday. No doubt another lone wolf from the religion of peace. I suppose the media are sick of reporting these attacks.
Posted by runner, Wednesday, 30 November 2016 5:29:23 PM
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“Muslims are the main victims of Islam which, in the Middle East is impelling them to kill each other at an even greater rate than they kill "infidels". Islam has kept Muslims (especially the women) relatively uneducated and backward, despite much oil wealth in some Muslim countries. It is incompatible with democratic notions of human rights, democracy and freedom of religion. The Koran has verses demanding the death penalty not only for "infidels" but also for apostates, those who leave Islam.”

It is indeed ironic that Western countries are then called on to accept as refugees the thousands of Muslims that are the main victims of Islam. Witness the more than one million refugees who flooded into Europe in the last few years -- thanks largely to Barack Obama’s misguided support for Sunni-backed rebels in the Syrian civil war.

Not only are Westerners expected to accept Muslim refugees unquestionably, but then to support the majority of them who partake of government welfare – a large number permanently. A large proportion of these then lean on host governments to allow in their relatives who in turn take permanent advantage of government welfare, but yet refuse to integrate into host country society.

Is it any wonder that many, if not most, non-Muslims despise the strong growth in Muslim immigration?
Posted by Raycom, Wednesday, 30 November 2016 5:36:59 PM
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Runner,
The local media were also silent a few weeks ago about the Christian Minister who was banned from entering Botswana due to hate speech plus the other Minister who married a 10-year old member of his congregation or even the other one who insisted that Starbucks were tainting their lattes with semen to turn men gay.

There are literally dozens more examples from the last 12 months alone that are published and reported in local media but never seem to find their way into our mainstream media - but take just one Muslim crackpot who wants to rant on YouTube and we all tremble in terror as it splashes across our TV.

For every locally published extremist Muslim story there are far more unmentioned extremist and bizarre Christian stories out there but of course, we have a certain agenda underway here - don't we?
Posted by rache, Wednesday, 30 November 2016 7:50:29 PM
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rache: the Christian Minister who was banned from entering Botswana due to hate speech plus the other Minister who married a 10-year old member of his congregation or even the other one who insisted that Starbucks were tainting their lattes with semen to turn men gay.

Arrrrh Africans. Strange lot them. Christianity when it goes to another Culture, rather than shun that Culture, adopts some of their original Religious practices. It makes it easier to convert people. Unlike Islam that demands that a population drop their Culture immediately & adopt an Ancient Middle Eastern one, or be killed. We have some weird Christian Sects here too. 7DA, JH's, AOG's, Fishers for Jesus, Scientologists & The Brethren just to name a few. It's not so much the Religion it's self but the Dogma that comes with them.

Anyway Islam is not a Sociopolitical Religious Sect that is Compatible with Australia & should be Banned.
Posted by Jayb, Wednesday, 30 November 2016 8:38:21 PM
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as abhorrent as Islam is, so is socialism.

Whats wrong with socialism
Posted by Referundemdrivensocienty, Wednesday, 30 November 2016 9:43:19 PM
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I think that western nations have to recognise the nature of Islam and the threat that it poses. It would seem to be madness to allow more migrants or refugees from Islamic countries unless the authorities are sure of their likely behaviour. One test is whether they are prepared to swear or affirm loyalty to the Queen and obedience to the laws of Australia (as against Sharia Law).
Posted by Gadfly42, Wednesday, 30 November 2016 9:46:25 PM
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Jayb,
Pastor Steven Anderson of the Faithful Word Baptist Church was deported from Botswana (and banned from entering some other African countries) for his comments on the Orlando massacre - which he not only celebrated but wished that even more gays had been killed.

It's got nothing to do with Africa because locally in the USA, groups like PayPal suspended his Church accounts because they did not want to deal with him.

He's not alone in his beliefs because there are dozens more groups like his and my point was that such stories go unreported in favor of demonising one particular group. The funeral-picketting Westboro Baptists are an obvious target for some of the media but the rest are ignored.

All religion is poison to civilised societies but it's how we deal with it that matters.

Swap the word Muslim with the word Jew and it all seems strangely familiar.

We said most of the same things about Asians not so long ago.
Posted by rache, Thursday, 1 December 2016 8:32:49 AM
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No matter what you say you are all the same.
You xians are no better than any muslim. You are all psychotic idiots. With your beliefs in magic and imaginary friends in the sky. Your souls filled with hate and meanness. You all want to interfere in peoples lives and make them worse. You all want "your" way to rule. You dont care about other peoples views. You are all the epitome of fools and ignorance and dishonest bigotry.
A pox on the lot of you.
Wake up godbotherers it is 2016 not 1600. You say you dont believe in science but then are happy to take advantage of it every day. Filthy hypocrites.
Posted by mikk, Thursday, 1 December 2016 8:38:02 AM
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wow the Christophobes are out in force again. The fact that they have no moral base at all to make rational or moral decisions produces the vomit you read above.
Posted by runner, Thursday, 1 December 2016 9:15:31 AM
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rache: Pastor Steven Anderson of the Faithful Word Baptist Church

Ahh... Baptists. Enough said, self explanatory.

rache: All religion is poison to civilised societies but it's how we deal with it that matters.

Agreed. Unfortunately some are worse than others. Some are vocal about their beliefs & some are physical. Most Christians are just vocal while moslems, even moderated, get violent very quickly.

rache: We said most of the same things about Asians not so long ago.

Not me. Asians are either Christian or Buddhist, both mostly peaceful & non-violent. Are you in favor of converting to Islam when your life will eventually get threatened?
Posted by Jayb, Thursday, 1 December 2016 10:46:21 AM
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Blah blah blah runner
As usual you just come here and spout BS and somehow think you are being clever. You just prove how much of an ignoramus you are every time you refuse to deny and refute charges against you dumb xians et al. Its all just mindless abuse and hyperbole.
Never do you make a logical, coherent argument for what you believe in. Indeed you never bother to rise above the level of insults and lies, let alone make even a vague attempt at an argument.
It is intolerant, religious, closed minded bigots like you that make me want to vomit
Posted by mikk, Thursday, 1 December 2016 4:42:31 PM
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Gadfly " One test is whether they are prepared to swear or affirm loyalty to the Queen and obedience to the laws of Australia (as against Sharia Law)."

Waste of time. Read my previous post. An oath to do anything contrary to their religion is meaningless.

David
Posted by VK3AUU, Thursday, 1 December 2016 9:23:54 PM
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Yeah, it's a bit like trying a witch. If she confesses to being a witch, she's a witch, so you burn her. And if she doesn't confess to being a witch, then she's lying (and whoever heard of an honest witch?), so you burn her for being a witch after you've tortured her for lying about it. This approach generally saves a lot of bother, and the infallible logic behind it ensures that you only end up burning witches, and never just poor old ladies.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Thursday, 1 December 2016 11:26:32 PM
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mikk: You are all the epitome of fools and ignorance and dishonest bigotry.

A pox on the lot of you. It is intolerant, religious, closed minded bigots like you that make me want to vomit

Nice little insulting rants from a moslems lover. I would expect nothing less. Next he'll be chopping off Christians heads.
Posted by Jayb, Friday, 2 December 2016 8:26:56 AM
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Jayb,

Religious conversions are voluntary but of the ones you mention, only one sells itself door-to-door.

Also, why single out Baptists as being unrepresentative? Aren't they Christians too? What about Mormons? At least they get their own planet when they die. Perhaps the Amish are the correct ones . Even the KKK uses religion to justify their beliefs and is a proudly Christian organisation.

There are over 10,000 religious groups globally classified as Christian so which is the correct one?
More importantly, only one can be right so what about the hell-bound fate of the members of the remaining 9,999 groups?

Christians are eager to use a minority of extremists to be representative of a whole competing religion but don't want it to work the other way around.

Hypocritical and judgemental?
No, just being religious - using their beliefs as not a reason but as an excuse for their personal prejudices.
Posted by rache, Friday, 2 December 2016 1:15:43 PM
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I identified the following claims by Babette Francis:

1. ISLAM KEEPS MUSLIMS UNEDUCATED
2. ISLAM IS NOT COMPATIBLE WITH NOTIONS OF HUMAN RIGHTS
3. ISLAM IS INCOMPATIBLE WITH DEMOCRACY
4. ISLAM IS INCOMPATIBLE WITH FREEDOM OF RELIGION
5. ISLAM WAS SPREAD BY THE SWORD
6. ACCORDING TO ARCHBISHOP WELBY, ISLAM BELEIVES THE JESUS WILL RETURN WITH THE PROPHET

Have I missed anything?

We can dispense with claim #6 immediately. Islam does not believe the Prophet Muhammad will return, only the Prophet Jesus will return.

Given this is so basic an error, the Archbishop and Francis are profoundly ignorant when it comes to Islam and they are playing those sincerely seeking the truth for fools

In the Qur'an we read:

<<We cursed Jews because of their saying, “We murdered ‘Isa, son of Maryam, the Messenger of Allah.” In fact, they did not murder him, nor did they crucify him. The murdered one was made to appear to them like ‘Isa. Those who differ over him are in a state of utter confusion; they have no knowledge whatsoever about this matter, but only a conjecture. For certain, they did not murder him. Allah raised ‘Isa up to His presence.) [Surat-un-Nisa’ 157-158]>>

According to the Prophet:

<<When ‘Isa returns to the earth, he will marry, have a son, live for about 40 years, and die. He will be buried beside me.>>

and

<<In the time period close to Doomsday, how beautiful is the life after the descent of ‘Isa. Then the sky will be granted permission to send its rain and the earth will be granted permission to grow its produce. If one sows a seed on a flat stone, it will sprout. When one passes by a lion, the lion will not do any harm. When one steps on a snake, it will not bite. There will be no struggle for interests, jealousy or hatred among people.>>

and

<<Grudge, hatred, and jealousy will no longer exist when ‘Isa descends as a just judge.>>

Isa is the Arabic for Jesus
Posted by grateful, Friday, 2 December 2016 4:53:38 PM
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...And for those who care for the Islamic perspective on Mary and Jesus they can read verses 16 through to 33 of Surah Maryam which describes in detail his birth, the birth pains that Mary suffered, his speaking when his soon after birth (to refute accusations made against Mary that she had been unchaste) and refutation of the claim that he is the son of God.

translation: http://www.noblequran.com/translation/surah19.html

as recited: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCFYhInE38k

So, unless others can add to the accusations I've listed, we are left with five outstanding claims.

Can I thank Babette Francis in advance for her article since it allows us to examine the factual basis of a number of accusations commonly raised against Islam...which by the way is beautiful religion :-)
Posted by grateful, Friday, 2 December 2016 5:13:18 PM
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Grateful: which by the way is beautiful religion

It is not a Religion. It is a Political Ideology masquerading as a Religion & a really terrible one at that. One that kills people just because they don't want to belong to it. One that Rapes children & Goats. One that is constantly at War with itself & Humanity. What a beautiful Religion that is. Not!

Started by a lying Camel Train thief who Raped a child. Good one.
Posted by Jayb, Friday, 2 December 2016 7:42:46 PM
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Jayb:"Started by a lying Camel Train thief who Raped a child. "

Jayb, we best take care. Those allegations against Trump have not been tested in court, although it's clear he has zero regard for the truth as evidence currently in propagating the myth about millions of fraudulant votes...he will destroy democracy.

Speaking of people who rape children, both in Australia and abroad (eg Phillipines);
have you noticed that they are predominately Europian if not Anglo in origin.

Similarly for the middle aged guy on my train home tonight from work who vomited all over the carriage. Just your typical Aussie cultural icon...he was Anglo.

Maybe we should have a peek at the educational outcomes of these anglos and Europeans compared to Asian, Islamic Asian, middle eastern...the order in which top ATRS are distributed in terms of ethnicity.

Anglos are next..which is a bit unfortunate because they are over represented in top level public and private management positions. This may well explain the state of decay in public policy (no medium term strategy)

Of when they stuff things up, as Abbott did, the've always got the Muslims and brown skins to blame.

Now Jayb have you got anything to say that can be construed as approaching a rational discussion?
Posted by grateful, Friday, 2 December 2016 11:05:18 PM
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grateful,

You haven’t really addressed Jayb’s criticism of Mohammed (torment be upon him), all you’ve done is defect with a comment about Trump and committed a sort of Tu quoque fallacy by claiming that Europeans/Anglos rape more than other ethnicities:

<<Speaking of people who rape children, both in Australia and abroad (eg Phillipines); have you noticed that they are predominately Europian if not Anglo in origin.>>

Where are you getting these statistics from? Ethnicity is not recorded by the police or courts in most countries, and while prisons record country of birth, these stats have problems because you’re dealing with the back end of the criminal justice system.
Posted by AJ Philips, Saturday, 3 December 2016 7:55:46 AM
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AJ: You haven’t really addressed Jayb’s criticism of Mohammed (torment be upon him), all you’ve done is defect with a comment about Trump and committed a sort of Tu quoque fallacy by claiming that Europeans/Anglos rape more than other ethnicities:

Thank you AJ. Deflection. We have come to expect nothing less from the moslems Community.

grateful, Why do moslems kill so many moslems? It's sort of fun to watch.
Posted by Jayb, Saturday, 3 December 2016 9:09:03 AM
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Jayb just parrots hate mongers without offering evidence. If he is going to make such claims he is the one who needs offer evidence. It's your intellectual dishonesty that demands the contrary.

Evidence: look at the names of the paedofiles rings that have been exposed or the cases reported to the Royal commision.
Posted by grateful, Saturday, 3 December 2016 10:21:41 AM
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grateful: Evidence: look at the names of the paedophiles rings that have been exposed or the cases reported to the Royal commission

Yes we all know about that & it's disgusting & wrong. But, moslems have legalized in in their Sharia Law. Haven't they?

As far as Muhammad goes it's all history & Islamic History at that. He was a Camel Train Thief & he was a Pedophile. He was a Murderer. You, can not deny that. moslems just make the excuse that "Allah made him do it." BS.
Posted by Jayb, Saturday, 3 December 2016 12:04:35 PM
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Grateful,

The problem with your argument is that it is relying on cases reported in the Aus media, and given that women and girls raped in Islamic countries are often jailed beaten or stoned for reporting the rape, your contention that paedophilia occurs more in the west is complete bollocks.

Mikk,

When Christians start executing thousands for not being Christians then maybe you can equate them to Muslims.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Saturday, 3 December 2016 12:09:30 PM
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Could i ask whether anyone knows how old Mary was when she married? And how old was Joseph?
Posted by grateful, Saturday, 3 December 2016 10:22:58 PM
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The crux of the matter is that Islam wants to force itself on everyone.
It started doing just that from the very begining.
Rome was the original target. But first they had to force the Assyrians
and Mesopotamians to submit. Then Persia and India followed by Nth Africa.
Invasions of Europe (Rome)were the ultimate aim.
They had success in the Middle East and Nth Africa but they had to kill
all the men to do it. The DNA of the Syrian and other women of the
middle east proves that.

The Arabs are a degenerate people driven by their religion & a false
sense of superiority.
I called them degenerate deliberately because they have been marrying
their cousins for possibly some thousands of years, certainly since
the start of Islam. It is the cause of most of their problems.
Their inability to compromise or tolerate other beliefs and opinions
is a typical behaviour problem of those whose intelligence is compromised.
We hear about statistics of their high criminal rates, but the
statistic you never hear about is their higher rate of children in
special schools. You do not hear about the studies done in the UK
and Denmark and yes, in NSW of genetic problems amongst Middle East
children born in maternity hospitals in those moslem areas.

Both the NSW & UK governments have done nothing to ban cousin marriage
despite the evidence in reports to those governments.
It is the children that suffer the most.

Finally it has sunk in that after several hundred attempts over
the last 1200+ years that they just cannot defeat European armies, so
they have changed tactics and now plan to force Rome into submission
by immigration. It now seems to be working very successfully so that
in 50 years the European continent will be known as the Eurabian Caliphate.
Posted by Bazz, Saturday, 3 December 2016 10:40:01 PM
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Answer: Mary was 12-14; Joseph: 80-90

This is a lesson in the complete and utter hypocrisy of all Christians who claim the Prophet (peace be upon him) was a paedophile and other hate mongers who fail to take similar issue with Joseph.

https://discover-the-truth.com/2013/09/30/marriage-of-mary-to-joseph-the-carpenter/

Disclaimer: This is in no way an attack on Joseph or Mary, both of whom are pious friends of Allah, but an expose of just how shameless and hypocritical Christians and Atheists can be in their attacks on the Prophet, peace and blessing be upon him and all Prophets and friends of Allah. Sick people...very sick people!
Posted by grateful, Saturday, 3 December 2016 10:50:53 PM
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Bazz:"The Arabs are a degenerate people driven by their religion & a false sense of superiority. I called them degenerate deliberately because they have been marrying their cousins for possibly some thousands of years, certainly since the start of Islam. It is the cause of most of their problems. Their inability to compromise or tolerate other beliefs and opinions is a typical behaviour problem of those whose intelligence is compromised."

Bazz, mate, great to see you are still kicking the old can. So please for you to make an appearance.

I was wondering, would you by any chance classify yourself as Anglo Celtic? It appears the Anglo Celts are being outperformed by the Muslims, including your "degenerate Arabs" .

http://www.smh.com.au/national/education/top-atar-hsc-performances-the-result-of-years-of-achievement-20141210-12442a.html

Students who score 90 or above in an HSC course in 2013 are most likely to be East/SE Asian, then South Asian, then Islamic Asian, then Arabic/North American, then North West European, then East/Central European, then South European then….DRUM ROLL… Anglo Celtic!

Oh dear! A few too many ales I suspect.

Cheers cobber
Posted by grateful, Saturday, 3 December 2016 11:31:07 PM
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grateful,

So you have no evidence that Europeans/Anglos rape more than other ethnicities? I didn’t think you would.

<<Mary was 12-14; Joseph: 80-90>>

We can’t even know for sure if Jesus existed, so how you (or your sources) figure they can determine the age of his parents is beyond me. By the way, this is the Tu quoque fallacy. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

And I hate to get pedantic, but that would have made Joseph a hebephile, not a paedophile. Even contemporary law recognises the differences here with regards to sex offences (although they generally don’t use those terms). Furthermore, one age group is at least capable of falling pregnant in a time where people didn’t live as long as they do now and death during child birth was common. Sex with the other is nothing more than rape for sexual gratification.

Here’s a straight up question that I don’t think you can/will answer: do you think that the Prophet’s (torment be upon him) child sex abuse was acceptable?
Posted by AJ Philips, Sunday, 4 December 2016 7:10:47 AM
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Yes, Grateful the Asians have a lot to teach us on dedication and
work ethic.
Never the less the Arab genome is badly damaged, and will take some
hundreds of years to repair if they stop the practise of cousin marriage today.
Strange that a race of camel and horse breeders took Allah's advice
instead of what they must have seen with their animals.
The story goes I have read, that someone asked Mohammed if it was OK
to marry their cousin, He replied that he did not know but would ask
Gabriel to enquire of Allah if it was OK.
When he next saw Gabriel he passed the information that it was OK.

Now if that story sounds too good to be true then it probably is !
Posted by Bazz, Sunday, 4 December 2016 7:31:11 AM
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grateful: <<Mary was 12-14; Joseph: 80-90>>

No, I believe that Joseph was about 50 odd. Quite old for those days. & yes Mary was 12 when she conceived. Raped by a Roman Soldier called Pandera. Hence the name Joshua ben Pandera or, also AKA Joshua ben Mamzer (Bastard) Then married off to Joseph who had just lost his wife & had a number of children to look after. He was then retired to Nazareth to avoid a scandal as Mary was the Grand-daughter of the High Priest of the Temple. (Talmudic text Sanhedrin 67a; Shabbath 104b. Origen.)

Still deflecting I see grateful.
Posted by Jayb, Sunday, 4 December 2016 9:20:01 AM
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The Arabs and other moslems seem to have a problem with being able to
change their understanding when new information arises.
Take for example the matter of pork.
The reasons for a ban on pig meat was well founded, and as the priests
of times before Islam were the main source of knowledge, they realised
that there was a problem with eating pork.
Being religious people naturally they promulgated that knowledge as a
religious dogma to make the ban effective.

Now this worked well for a couple of thousand years, until somewhere
around 500BC the Chinese worked out the parasite cause and developed
animal husbandry techniques to over come the problem.
This knowledge went down the silk road to the middle east, Russia and
Europe and pig meat became a highly productive food source.

However when this knowledge reached the Israelis they could not just
turn around and say Jehovah got it wrong !
I mean if He got it that wrong, was everything else wrong ?
The Islamists of course were following the Abrahamic tradition and
also could not say that Allah got it wrong.
Well Allah did get it wrong, well no he didn't because I suspect
that Gabriel was a con man in the true Arab tradition.
Posted by Bazz, Sunday, 4 December 2016 10:13:15 AM
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Grateful, some information for you.
Those with a cousin marriage tradition have a 13% greater than the
other populations of giving birth to children with genetic problems.
As it is a widespread problem in most Arab populations it does reduce
the general IQ of the population but it is more complicated than just that.
For instance the incidence may be less in Syrian populations because
the Arabs killed the Assyrian men and took the women.
However that was a long time ago and it is hard to find data on Syria.

Spain is an interesting example. During the Moslem occupation there
was a flourishing of scientific knowledge. I have not been able to
find if the Moors had a cousin marriage tradition and there may have
been intermarriage with the Spanish and Jews who lived there then.

There is only one solution to the difficulty of reaching agreements
with most Arab governments, eg the "Palestinian" / Israel problem
and that is if someone can get them to ban cousin marriage then
wait a few hundred years.
By then they may have cleaned up their genome and be more open to compromise.
Posted by Bazz, Sunday, 4 December 2016 10:33:40 AM
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Hi Jayb:

Still waiting for your evidence to support:

"As far as Muhammad goes it's all history & Islamic History at that. He was a Camel Train Thief & he was a Pedophile. He was a Murderer. You, can not deny that. moslems just make the excuse that "Allah made him do it." BS."
Posted by grateful, Sunday, 4 December 2016 12:40:23 PM
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I didn't think you'd have an answer to that last question of mine, grateful. Best not to think about these sorts of things if you want to leave your religious beliefs intact.
Posted by AJ Philips, Sunday, 4 December 2016 8:52:27 PM
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The evils that we see today, and that we've mentioned, arise because people see themselves as free agents in determining right and wrong. Even the Paedophile thinks he is right.

"One of the men who was awaiting the birth of his child with his girlfriend discussed plans to sexually abuse the baby once it was born, police said." From "Massive paedophile ring uncovered by police in Norway after arrest of 51 men" http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/norway-paedophile-ring-police-arrest-51-men-a7432441.html

The father who molested and allowed other molest his daughter didn't see himself as doing the wrong thing:
"Mr Whalley said the father watched the other pedophiles have sex with or molest his daughter, often encouraging her to engage in the activity and doing nothing when she protested or refused. Other times, the strangers watched the father sexually abuse his daughter. The abuse mainly happened at the father’s home, the homes of the other men or in hotel rooms."

The father is now appealing against his 22 year jail sentence as being "too harsh"!
http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/perth-dad-who-led-evil-8-paedophile-ring-challenges-22year-sentence/news-story/9a68156b36fe691a8be4f6f56cfb9541

The other 7 of Perth's Evil 8: Mark Wesley Liggins, Dawid Volmer,Benjamin Simon Clarke, Nicholas Adam Beer, Troy Phillip Milbourne, Alfred John Impicciatore and Ryan Trevor Clegg. More recently, another has been apprehended: Nicholas Adam Beer.

From <http://www.perthnow.com.au/national/western-australia/evil-8-father-who-organised-pedophile-ring-sexually-abused-daughter-jailed-for-22-years/news-story/6df990855697479a40569ba916405221>

These do not strike me as Muslim names.

Atheists deny divinity arguing that the only sources of knowledge are the senses and reason. But just as our 5 senses cannot help us comprehend questions of science, questions of right and wrong are beyond reason. One atheist may argue a case against paedophilia while another can just as easily make a case for paedophilia, although no amount of reasoning will tell us whether it is right or wrong.

In just one week we have the following headlines:

Child sexual abuse scandal rocks English football as former players allege existence of paedophile rings - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation): http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2016-11-26/former-football-players-come-forward-about-child-abuse/8060276

Massive paedophile ring uncovered by police in Norway after arrest of 51 men
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/norway-paedophile-ring-police-arrest-51-men-a7432441.html

Police to investigate claims of Scottish paedophile ring
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/scotland/police-to-investigate-claims-of-scottish-paedophile-ring-mnwfnrsg5

CONT..
Posted by grateful, Sunday, 4 December 2016 11:05:50 PM
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CONT..

From "How paedophile rings operate in Australia" we read:

<<Dr Freda Briggs, Emeritus Professor in Child Development at the University of South Australia, said paedophile rings were happening in Australia and had been for years.
She’d interviewed victims who told of her of abuse that started when they were young children and didn’t stop until their mid-teens. “Many of the victims are young boys who [more so than girls] tend not to report it.”
Their abusers were “wealthy men across all walks of life” who you wouldn’t normally suspect were capable of such appalling behaviour.
ling behaviour.>> http://www.news.com.au/national/crime/how-paedophile-rings-operate-in-australia/news-story/35a755a4a6bdb0d07c73203d4d74b934

Obviously there are many in the secular West who see no wrong in paedophilia. In Australia, the Royal Commission has ruled out investigating child-abuse in 2 key institutions: Parliaments (State & Federal) and the Judiciary, despite the evidence of paedophile rings among Britain's ruling elite:

More than 10’ politicians on list held by police investigating Westminster ‘paedophile ring’

From <https://theukdatabase.com/councillorspolitical-party-affiliated/westminster-scandal-114-secret-files-on-paedophile-cases-missing/more-than-10-politicians-on-list-held-by-police-investigating-westminster-paedophile-ring/>

And accusations raised against an Australian Prime Minister have bee dutifully ignored:
"Survivor of alleged elite paedophile ring including former prime minister speaks out: http://www.news.com.au/national/crime/survivor-of-alleged-elite-paedophile-ring-including-former-prime-minister-speaks-out/news-story/219c1d581d9453b6baf45a0935af214a

Finally, the U.S. has just elected a self-confessed sexual predator! Doesn't seem like a culture that cares too much about its women and children, does it?
Posted by grateful, Sunday, 4 December 2016 11:09:18 PM
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Grateful, why did you turn that into an attack on atheists? Are you catholic? Paedophilia appears to be built into religions, whether churches, seminaries, nunneries, schools, or whatever. Religions attract nutters of all shapes and sizes.

"Obviously there are many in the secular West who see no wrong in paedophilia."

The SECULAR West?

You holier than thou morons need to wake up to your rank hypocrisy.
Posted by Billyd, Monday, 5 December 2016 12:27:13 AM
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What was that the Koran said about the boys and pearls ?
Posted by Bazz, Monday, 5 December 2016 7:38:24 AM
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grateful,

Your argument again is just one big Tu quoque fallacy. And not all paedophiles see nothing wrong with their desires. Many never end up offending and there are even support groups for paedophiles who do not want to offend. Are you saying that Muhammad's (torment be upon him) marrying of a child was alright because he saw nothing wrong with it?

Just because it’s possible to dig up a bunch of European/Anglo names related to child sex abuse cases, that doesn’t mean that Europeans/Anglos sexually assault children more frequently. It could mean a lot of things such as an increased awareness in Western countries, better policing, better laws, a freer media, stronger condemnation of child sex abuse in Western societies, etc.

<<Atheists deny divinity arguing that the only sources of knowledge are the senses and reason.>>

That’s strong atheism. More broadly speaking, atheists do not have religious beliefs because theists have not yet met their burden of proof.

<<… questions of right and wrong are beyond reason.>>

No, they’re not. I can, for example, explain why slavery is wrong - something the Abrahamic religions doctrinally condone.

<<One atheist may argue a case against paedophilia while another can just as easily make a case for paedophilia, although no amount of reasoning will tell us whether it is right or wrong.>>

So what if the atheist (or theist for that matter) that argues against paedophilia points out the psychological harm that sex abuse does to a child? How is that not exercising reason?

I’m sorry, grateful, but you are simply sidestepping the issue by refusing to either outright condemn or condone Muhammad's (torment be upon him) child sex abuse.

I do agree with your point about Trump, however. Directly or indirectly, his election was the public condoning of sexual assault to at least some degree.
Posted by AJ Philips, Monday, 5 December 2016 9:34:22 PM
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AJ: says:
"Your argument again is just one big Tu quoque fallacy. And not all paedophiles see nothing wrong with their desires. Many never end up offending and there are even support groups for paedophiles who do not want to offend. Are you saying that Muhammad's (torment be upon him) marrying of a child was alright because he saw nothing wrong with it?"

Ayesha was young, as was Mary when she was married to Joseph. Yet in all your attacks on Christianity have you once raised this as an issue? Have you ever described it as sexual assault? You can't because in those days marriage at that age was socially acceptable.

We know that Ayesha was young from her own testimony. In fact there is evidence that she was older based on other facts but scholars (Muslim scholars) have chosen to rely on her testimony.

There were no objections to the marriage of Mary at the time and given the opposition that the Prophet faced, if his marriage to Ayesha had been as you describe it (sexual assault, paedophilia) then we would certainly have heard about it.

So there is no testimony from Ayesha that her feeling for the Prophet was anything but love (there are many hadith to this effect) and no testimony from the enemies of the Prophet, nor of course Ayesha's father Abu Bakr.

We need to remember the Prophet was married to one women, Khadija, for 25 years and most of his other wives were middle age and not particularly attractive.

AJ: "I’m sorry, grateful, but you are simply sidestepping the issue by refusing to either outright condemn or condone Muhammad's (torment be upon him) child sex abuse."

You and Jayb make these accusations without one bit of evidence (which itself is evidence of your fraudulent claims to rely on evidence). There is obviously nothing to condemn. My daughter's name is Ayesha and Ayesha, peace be upon her, is someone all Muslims look to for inspiration and guidance.
Posted by grateful, Tuesday, 6 December 2016 9:21:15 AM
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AJ: Siding stepping the issue:

You and many others are side-stepping the issue: your way of life is failing to protect women and children. This is at root of why I describe Islam as a beautiful religion, a way of life.
Posted by grateful, Tuesday, 6 December 2016 9:22:03 AM
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AJ:<<So what if the atheist (or theist for that matter) that argues against paedophilia points out the psychological harm that sex abuse does to a child? How is that not exercising reason?>>

You can explain why you don't like something (so its wrong for you) why others don't like something (so its wrong for them) but you cannot use reason to apprehend what is right and wrong.

When he was younger, my son would have argued that it was wrong for me to spank him when he was misbehaving but now he would say I was right.

Many paedophiles seem to feel they have done nothing wrong and I've even read that they feel persecuted. They are using reason just like you. Both can't be right, so how do you decide? Obviously not with reason alone.

Islam, and earlier messages protect my children from sexual predators.

Some examples: Muslims are am not permitted to touch someone (non-family) of the opposite sex let alone embrace and kiss (hi, bye, wink wink). If this were the norm in workplaces you would eliminate sexual harassment in the workplace.

My son is not allowed to expose himself between the navel and the knees to anyone other than close family, including the football locker rooms with his mates and coach. It would be very difficult to imagine the circumstances that would give rise to child abuse in any institution that had this as its norm.

My children know they are to lower their gaze with the opposite sex, even on TV. They expect to have sexual intercourse only when they are married. They are far, far away from the drink, drugs and parties that is the typical part of an aussie kids upbringing. What is the single most important cause of violence and crime: alcohol and drugs.

I used to hang around anglo aussie blokes and now I hang around Muslims blokes. There is no comparison when it comes to their respect for women and their care for children.

Islam is a beautiful religion
Posted by grateful, Tuesday, 6 December 2016 9:55:19 AM
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AJ & Jayb:

One final note:

Here is a Muslim blog that addresses the many issues around Ayesha's marriage. Pick through it and if you have any further concerns then feel free to raise them.

https://islamgreatreligion.wordpress.com/2011/04/11/why-prophet-muhammad-married-aisha-when-she-was-only-9/
Posted by grateful, Tuesday, 6 December 2016 10:18:02 AM
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Grateful, how can you say that Islam is a beautiful religion when so many Muslims are currently killing one another as fast as they can, all in the name of Allah or whatever you might like to call Him. Get real mate.

David
Posted by VK3AUU, Tuesday, 6 December 2016 12:21:09 PM
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You're right, grateful. I haven't.

<<Yet in all your attacks on Christianity have you once raised this as an issue?>>

Because there is scant evidence of an historical Jesus to begin with, let alone who his parents were or their ages. Christians don’t revere Joseph either.

<<There were no objections to the marriage of Mary at the time …>>

As far as we can tell, there was probably no Mary either.

<<... given the opposition that the Prophet faced, if his marriage to Ayesha had been as you describe it (sexual assault, paedophilia) then we would certainly have heard about it.>>

So are you suggesting that sex with a nine-year-old isn’t sexual assault or paedophilia then? Or does it depend on if the child consents or loves their victimiser?

<<So there is no testimony from Ayesha that her feeling for the Prophet was anything but love …>>

There are under-aged children who also consent to sex with adults, but it is still legally considered rape because they are not emotionally mature enough to be giving their consent. And how do we know this wasn’t a case of Stockholm Syndrome?

<<You and Jayb make these accusations without one bit of evidence ...>>

Are you denying that Ayesha was nine when Muhammad (torment be upon him) first had sex with her? I thought that was widely accepted by Islamic scholars. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha)

<<You and many others are side-stepping the issue: your way of life is failing to protect women and children.>>

How is this “THE” issue? And what do you mean by my “way of life”? A non-religious way of life has an infinite combination of possibilities. Do you mean secularism? Because secularism has done far more for the protection and rights of women and children than the Abrahamic religions (who have fought against progress tooth and nail the entire way) ever have. Secularism has helped to deliver and unprecedented level of freedoms, rights, and equality.

Continued…
Posted by AJ Philips, Tuesday, 6 December 2016 7:46:17 PM
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...Continued

<<You can explain why you don't like something (so its wrong for you) why others don't like something (so its wrong for them) but you cannot use reason to apprehend what is right and wrong.>>

The Euthyphro dilemma discredits this appeal to the need for a higher authority. And yes, one can use reason to determine what is right and what is wrong. Slavery, for example, is wrong because it is harmful to the slaves and the society in which they live. That’s a reasoned argument, not just a personal preference.

<<Many paedophiles seem to feel they have done nothing wrong and I've even read that they feel persecuted. They are using reason just like you. Both can't be right, so how do you decide?>>

By opting for the opinion that results in the least amount of harm. Unless, of course, you can argue that more harm is beneficial and preferable?

Either way, appealing to a god would not be a solution for the reasons highlighted by the Euthyphro dilemma.

As for the virtues of Islam that you mention, you and moderate Muslims like you only interpret Islamic doctrine in a way that is more civilised because of secular values that have superseded religious dogma since the Enlightenment. Had you lived before the Enlightenment, you would more than likely be beheading infidels and throwing acid on the faces of the women in your life, just as Christians were torturing people to death using all sorts of creative methods.
Posted by AJ Philips, Tuesday, 6 December 2016 7:46:21 PM
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The frequent mention of the age of Mohammed's wife conveniently ignores the historical fact that the concept of marriage was different back then. Women were traded and treated as property with marriages arranged by parents.

For example, how old was Jesus' mother Mary when she was married?

Historians suggest she would traditionally have been around 12 or 13 when she was married with physical consummation taking place some years later. That's simply how things were done.

Nobody seems to ask why she was married yet allegedly still a virgin?

As for Christians "never killing non-believers", the real history of early Christianity (not the Hollywood Sunday School myths) avoids the truth behind the era of Constantine, the subsequent re-banning of Christianity of his successor and then the following change two years later that made Christianity the sole religion with all the order that all "pagans" should be put to death.

What is now Syria became a vast killing field where thousands of non-Christians were crucified and burned alive. Their temples were torn down or turned into brothels or stables with the stripped marble used to build many of the Christian churches in Italy.

The reason behind the Spanish Inquistion was the hunting down and killing of the remnants of the remaining non-Catholic Christian "heretic" gnostics.

Christianity also has a violent blood-soaked history and has not always been the starry-eyed state of bliss that everybody assumes and arguing over comparative mythologies on the basis of half-truths is pointless.

Typically, religion does not provide a reason for perpetual intolerance but a convenient in-built excuse, and that goes for all sides.
Posted by rache, Wednesday, 7 December 2016 8:41:46 AM
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David: <<Grateful, how can you say that Islam is a beautiful religion when so many Muslims are currently killing one another as fast as they can, all in the name of Allah or whatever you might like to call Him. Get real mate.>>

Raising a family is real. The respect for women and the care for children is real. And I don't see Islam as the cause of "so many Muslims are currently killing one another as fast as they can".

If you want to say that ISIS ideology is Islamic then you'll have to explain why it has been rejected by all schools of Islamic law (e.g. Refuting ISIS, ttps://ia601307.us.archive.org/13/items/RefutingISIS/Refuting%20ISIS.pdf)

The message of God is a message that offers guidance and protection:

"Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.' this is the first commandment. And the second, like it, is this: 'You shall love your neighbour as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these. " (Mark, 12: 29-31)

"Say: He is God, the One! God the self-Sufficient Besought of all!" (Qur'an, Al-Ikhlas 112: 1-2)

"So invoke the Name of thy Lord and devote thyself to Him with complete devotion" (Qur'an, Al-Muzzammil, 73:8)

The Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, said: "None of you has faith until you love for your neighbour what you love for yourself"
Posted by grateful, Wednesday, 7 December 2016 9:27:39 AM
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AJ:<<Are you denying that Ayesha was nine when Muhammad (torment be upon him) first had sex with her? I thought that was widely accepted by Islamic scholars. >>

You obviously didn’t read the link I gave.

AJ: QUOTE<<So there is no testimony from Ayesha that her feeling for the Prophet was anything but love …>>

There are under-aged children who also consent to sex with adults, but it is still legally considered rape because they are not emotionally mature enough to be giving their consent. And how do we know this wasn’t a case of Stockholm Syndrome? QUOTE

These remarks raise a lot of questions?

Well let's be clear about what you are arguing. Are you arguing that because Ayesha was under-age in terms of Australian legal standards then she was raped? Are you arguing that all societies (including Biblical, Roman, Mesopotamian … you name it) that have permitted the marriage of a girl under the age of 16 as condoning rape even if that girl is able to be bear children?

How do you make the case that Ayesha was not "emotionally mature"? Because she was 9 years of age? That's fine when we speak of children raised in our society, but what about in the very different social and historical conditions of the pre-modern world? No baby-bonuses or government support for parents to put their children through primary/secondary/tertiary education.

continue...
Posted by grateful, Wednesday, 7 December 2016 9:39:16 AM
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Continue…
Next question: What basis do you have for saying she had Stockholm Syndrome? From wikipaedia we have the following definition,

<<Stockholm syndrome can be seen as a form of traumatic bonding, which does not necessarily require a hostage scenario, but which describes "strong emotional ties that develop between two persons where one person intermittently harasses, beats, threatens, abuses, or intimidates the other.>>

You’re the accuser, so where is your evidence of Ayesha being intermittently harassed, beaten, threatened, abused or intimidated?

AJ, you are making all these accusations without evidence. Just a bunch of "what ifs". What if she was not "emotionally mature". What if she had Stockholm Syndrome?

In summary, you have no evidence to support the accusation of rape: no evidence of a lack of consent, no evidence of trauma and no evidence of Ayesha's feelings towards the Prophet as being anything other than sincere love.

As for the accusation of paedophilia if you are going to make it in the case of Ayesha then you will need to level it against the lady who first proposed the marriage to the Prophet, Ayesha's parents, the tribal society in which it was not unusual to have girls consummate marriage once they had reached the age when they can bear children and indeed any such society (including those of Biblical times).

AJ, have you ever raised concerns about paedophilia among the Anglo-Celtic or European population which is clearly the highest risk group? And isn't it time you did so given your pre-occupation with the issue in this thread? Or do the children have to be victims of a Muslim before they receive your "empathy and sincere concern"?

The Western lifestyle is failing to protect women and children. That is obvious. It is because they do not have the set of norms and values, and etiquette between men, women and children, that would prevent sexual violence and paedophilia, particularly given the greater opportunities for such behaviour afforded by technology.
Posted by grateful, Wednesday, 7 December 2016 10:05:15 AM
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Rache: Historians suggest she would traditionally have been around 12 or 13 when she was married

From a previous post. Joseph was about 50 odd. Quite old for those days. & yes Mary was 12 when she conceived. Raped by a Roman Soldier called Pandera. Hence the name Joshua ben Pandera or, also AKA Joshua ben Mamzer (Bastard) Then married off to Joseph who had just lost his wife & had a number of children to look after. He was then retired to Nazareth to avoid a scandal as Mary was the Grand-uncle of the High Priest of the Temple through Anne his wife. (Talmudic text Sanhedrin 67a; Shabbath 104b. Origen.)

The other theory is that Mary was betrothed to Antipas the son of Herod. Antipas was good friends with Emperor Augustus while he was Governor of Egypt & went to Agustuses inauguration in Rome. Augustus raped Mary & Antipas came back to Israel where Herod thought Antipas would usurp him. So Herod had him killed which left Mary pregnant & unmarried. Mary was then quickly married off to save the High Priests face. When Pontius Pilot asked Joshua (Jesus) who his father was, Joshua whispered in his ear & Pontius Pilot washed his hands of the matter. If Augustus was his father then Pilot would have been sending his son to death. Whaaa...

grateful: The respect for women and the care for children is real.

Yes, providing they stay in a bag & stay home & not talk to anyone except a relative. Very obvious, rape, stoning, not human, etc, etc.

Grateful: Are you arguing that because Ayesha was under-age in terms of Australian legal standards then she was raped?

Yes. I thought children were protected?

For answers to your questions. Read “The Life of Muhammad.” & many other books written by Islamic Scholars.
Posted by Jayb, Wednesday, 7 December 2016 10:08:58 AM
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Jayb: <<Grateful: Are you arguing that because Ayesha was under-age in terms of Australian legal standards then she was raped?

Yes.>>

So the Australian legal age of 16 for consent is a universal standard for all societies (tribal & modern) and all circumstances?

No-one would agree with you other than those who share your own obsession of demonising Muslims.
Posted by grateful, Wednesday, 7 December 2016 10:39:14 AM
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grateful: So the Australian legal age of 16 for consent is a universal standard for all societies (tribal & modern) and all circumstances?

Sounds like a good idea, makes sense.

No-one would agree with you other than those who share your own obsession of demonising Muslims.

No-one demonizes moslems. They do it themselves. We just point it out the stupidity in their beliefs. Jinn's, flat Earth, Sun goes around the Earth. Women aren't human, Seeing a woman without here Birka will cause men to rape them & it'll the woman's fault for leading the man astray. So stone her to death. Screw goats & little boys & sell the goat to your neighbour. Women can't handle; Carrots, Cucumbers, etc, because it drives them sexually wild. (Fatwa)

It certainly is a great religion. eh. If you are in-bred or kinky, that's Islam for ya.
Posted by Jayb, Wednesday, 7 December 2016 11:56:11 AM
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Jayb,

I think domestic violence, child abuse and sexual harassment in the workplace are serious issues. They have profound effects on the lives of the victims.

Islam offers a way of preventing these from occurring but perhaps people have other ideas.

This is an opportunity to share ideas and have them discussed and debated sensibly.
Posted by grateful, Thursday, 8 December 2016 11:10:47 AM
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Yes, grateful, I read it.

<<You obviously didn’t read the link I gave.>>

But it didn't answer my question.

You said that my claim, that Muhammad’s (torment be upon him) marriage to Ayesha was child sex abuse, was not based on evidence. So I asked if you were denying that Ayesha was nine when Muhammad (torment be upon him) consummated the marriage. Now you say that I obviously haven’t read the link you provided, when that link doesn’t deny Ayesha’s age, it only attempts to justify Muhammad’s (torment be upon him) marriage to her (and fails miserably too, I might add).

I haven’t ignored any evidence.

<<Are you arguing that because Ayesha was under-age in terms of Australian legal standards then she was raped?>>

Yes. That and the fact that she was not even old enough to fall pregnant (despite some freak incidences that are occurring nowadays because we’re fatter).

<<Are you arguing that all societies … that have permitted the marriage of a girl under the age of 16 as condoning rape even if that girl is able to be bear children?>>

Not so much if they were capable of bearing child, if only for the reason that women often died during child birth and the life expectancy was much lower. Then there’s the fact that our laws are superior because they are more evidence-based and less arbitrary.

<<How do you make the case that Ayesha was not "emotionally mature"? Because she was 9 years of age?>>

Yes. What is the evidence that nine-year-olds were significantly more emotionally mature than nine-year-olds today? Let alone mature enough to understand the emotional and physical ramifications of being sexually active.

<<… what about in the very different social and historical conditions of the pre-modern world?

Even if this argument were valid, what would that say for an all-knowing god who realised that little girls would eventually lose their maturity over time?

<<What basis do you have for saying she had Stockholm Syndrome?>>

I didn’t say she had it. I simply raised the question.

Continued…
Posted by AJ Philips, Thursday, 8 December 2016 11:13:05 AM
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…Continued

<<You’re the accuser, so where is your evidence of Ayesha being intermittently harassed, beaten, threatened, abused or intimidated?>>

Well, she certainly would have felt intimidated being forced to be with a significantly older man who was not her father. Let me guess, little girls weren’t intimidated by older men back then?

<<In summary, you have no evidence to support the accusation of rape: no evidence of a lack of consent, no evidence of trauma and no evidence of Ayesha's feelings towards the Prophet as being anything other than sincere love.>>

No, you’ve simply assumed that children back then were more mature. This is the same flawed ‘context’ argument that Christians pull when defending slavery in the Bible. It doesn’t work.

<<As for the accusation of paedophilia if you are going to make it in the case of Ayesha then you will need to level it against the lady who first proposed the marriage to the Prophet …>>

Not necessarily. It’s not as obvious that she was sexually attracted to children under 12.

<<AJ, have you ever raised concerns about paedophilia among the Anglo-Celtic or European population which is clearly the highest risk group?>>

Yes.

<<And isn't it time you did so given your pre-occupation with the issue in this thread?>>

“Pre-occupation”, as if it were unwarranted and obsessive.

<<Or do the children have to be victims of a Muslim before they receive your "empathy and sincere concern"?>>

I’m used to being accused of disproportionately attacking Christianity. This is a nice change.

<<The Western lifestyle is failing to protect women and children.>>

Again, secularism has done far more for the protection, freedoms, and rights of women and children than the Abrahamic religions every have. I've already explained this.

<<It is because they do not have the set of norms and values, and etiquette between men, women and children, that would prevent sexual violence …>>

Actually, it does. Secularism also comes with the added benefit of depriving religious nuts the claim to divine endorsement.
Posted by AJ Philips, Thursday, 8 December 2016 11:13:10 AM
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AJ: <<As for the virtues of Islam that you mention, you and moderate Muslims like you only interpret Islamic doctrine in a way that is more civilised because of secular values that have superseded religious dogma since the Enlightenment. Had you lived before the Enlightenment, you would more than likely be beheading infidels and throwing acid on the faces of the women in your life, just as Christians were torturing people to death using all sorts of creative methods.>>

AJ, you've completely discredited yourself with this paragraph. Your profound ignorance of a topic you profess deep knowledge is demonstrated with the following two accounts of how Islam shaped the European knowledge, thought and institutions.

From BBC's "ISLAM's contribution to Europe and Influence to European Renaissance"

"The great Italian theologian, Thomas Aquinas, used the writings of the Muslim philosopher Averroes to justify the clear separation of faith and reason ; a Muslim ideal that formed the basis of all scientific inquiry."

"At a time when Europeans were praying to the bones of their saints to cure their illnesses Muslim physicians developed an innovative theory: that disease was transmitted through tiny airborne organisms, a precursor to the study of germs."

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nznATCvo5Y&list=RD2nznATCvo5Y#t=2719

continue....
Posted by grateful, Thursday, 8 December 2016 12:05:43 PM
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continue...

From the inaugural lecture of the Legatum Institutes History of Capitalism series, Benedikt Koehler's "Early Islam and the Birth of Capitalism",

"So we have Islamic antecedents for a host of institutional innovations: establishing a company, advancing business studies, founding colleges and trusts, and launching a gold currency. This prompts a question. The mere fact that Europeans took longer to make certain discoveries does not prove that they depended on Islamic models to make them. How can we claim that Islamic templates provided the inspiration for these innovations? To answer that question, let us look at who the innovators were. A pattern emerges: Leonardo Fibonacci, the Knights Templar, and the Franciscan Friars—all had exposure to Islamic approaches to managing institutions. Next, consider the centres where innovation occurred. The vanguard of commercial progress was not in political power centres—not in Rome or Paris; but in cities with the best trade relations with Islamic countries—in Venice and Genoa. The agents of change in Europe were innovators who had insight into Islamic practices. Venice and Genoa had a competitive advantage because they had close trade links with the realm of Islam. This pattern of commercial innovation—one that is kick-started by entrepreneurs who take the risk of investing, and then spreads to promote advances in law and economics—not only replicates the pattern we saw in the early Islamic empire; it also conforms to what Hayek would lead us to expect: that social progress originates in markets, not in government actions."
Lecture: Early Islam and the Birth of Capitalism - with Benedikt Koehler
PDF: https://lif.blob.core.windows.net/lif/docs/default-source/publications/an-introduction-to-the-history-of-capitalism-600-1900-ad.pdf?sfvrsn=4
Posted by grateful, Thursday, 8 December 2016 12:06:16 PM
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grateful,

I haven’t professed a deep knowledge of anything. But I do know enough about the history of secularism and the enlightenment to understand that it is only because of these things that moderates (of all religions) are more inclined to, and allowed to, interpret and cherry pick their religious doctrines in the nicest and most civilised way possible.

I don’t know why you’re spruiking the contribution of Muslims to the European renaissance. Christians contributed to Enlightenment. So what? Progress usually occurs despite religion, not because of it. Everyone in those days identified with some religion somehow, so it’s hardly surprising that a Muslim did this or that a Christian did that.

Christians even try to attribute Christianity itself to modern science as a supposedly necessary factor, with nonsense about an orderly creator, seemingly unaware that the presence of a creator was not only unnecessary inspire a curiosity about an apparent orderliness, but may only have been attributed to it so as to prevent arousing the ire of an anti-scientific religious establishment.

Religion has provided us with nothing positive or constructive that could not have possibly arisen through secular means.
Posted by AJ Philips, Thursday, 8 December 2016 12:53:03 PM
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It is not my wish to disparage any Poster on this Forum, but it seems to me that the more time and effort expended (for example) on the relative ages of certain young women, and the implications thereof, the further we depart from what I believe is the crucial point the Author wishes to make. I'm not saying that such discussion is irrelevant, only that it is largely tangential and thus unproductive.

IMO the essential point the Author makes is when she states: "...we are not fighting terrorism, which is only a tactic, we are fighting an ideology that makes use of terrorism. In order to defeat this ideology, we must first name it, and then understand it."

Earlier the Author had stated that: "...The focus on the violence of ISIS and the conflicts in the Middle East is distracting from the problems inherent in Islam itself...", and concludes the article by recommending that all relevant Muslim persons of authority "...abrogate all verses in the Koran advocating violence - and to implement this in their preaching and teaching in mosques, schools and elsewhere...". The Author's conclusion appears logical given her previous explanation of the source of violence being "...inherent in Islam itself...".

Trouble is, logic does not apply here; the Author would be well aware that asking any Muslim to "abrogate" or deny anything in the Koran is asking that person to deny the very word of God; thus is it written and cannot be changed. Now while it appears to be the case that a Muslim person may (at the least) be evasive when questioned upon matters directly informing their faith, the reasons they may do so will vary I suspect depending upon the perceived threat to them.

TBC
Posted by Pilgrim, Thursday, 8 December 2016 3:50:23 PM
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2. Continued from above:

It is the case that some Muslim scholars in different countries have denounced violence and in particular have singled out ISIS and other similar groups for public criticism. But even these learned men cannot, and/or dare not change or deny what is already written in the Koran, and I am guessing that they can only hope for their views to be understood, accepted and followed by the “mainstream”.

So in a very real sense we are at an impasse in attempting to deal with the vexed subject of “Islamic violence”. Some among us, such as Senator Hanson and others, have definite views on “what needs to be done”, including the cessation of Muslim immigration into Australia. Let’s say eventually that becomes a matter of Federal legislation, by then I would suggest that particular “horse” would have well and truly bolted.

And what of those who say: “Let’s deport the whole bloody lot of them”? OK, but just how do you go about doing that? One thing I can guarantee you is that you will succeed in driving the Muslim Faith underground, in the same way historically that other groups have done in order to survive. What then do you do? At this point I respectfully remind you of the comment above from AJ Philips (I think it was) about witches. Would you or a family member be prepared to go on a Government sanctioned round-up, only to be faced with constant denials? What’s next, torture?

Please give some thought for a moment for the huge and monumentally expensive apparatus required to achieve this mass deportation, and how is it to be paid for? Perhaps a Special Taxation Levy being implemented (anything up to a 50% increase), and once in place, almost impossible to get rid of. Every time you see a truck full of hapless Muslims go by on their way to the docks you can gleefully say: “There’s my taxes at work”.

TBC
Posted by Pilgrim, Thursday, 8 December 2016 3:51:49 PM
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3. Continued from above:

If you reckon that I am being far-fetched, think again. Once something like this is allowed to start, where do you stop? Who knows, by the time such a scheme is up and running, economic circumstances in Australia may have deteriorated to such an extent that anyone seen to be too dangerous, too unproductive, too old, too this, too that, becomes fair game.

What we all need to do is think this whole matter through very, very carefully.
Posted by Pilgrim, Thursday, 8 December 2016 3:52:35 PM
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' Please give some thought for a moment for the huge and monumentally expensive apparatus required to achieve this mass deportation, '

Pilgrim

I don't think anyone in their right mind thinks deporting all muslims is a viable option nor would most want that. What is viable is to learn from our mistakes and minimise the risk by accepting refugees and others who are thankful for refuge and who don't hate western people who are not muslims. Not that difficult really, just needs a pollie with a bit of guts to stare down the white australian hating media such as the abc.
Posted by runner, Thursday, 8 December 2016 4:21:59 PM
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yea the latest from Germany with Afghan refugee raping and murdering a young 19 year old medical student. Her parents worked for the EU.Some quotes

' Maria - who died from drowning - was portrayed as 'the victim of Merkel's welcome culture'.

' Public anger about the refugee arrivals has been stoked by high-profile crimes involving immigrants, including alleged rapes and other sex attacks at public swimming pools.'

' such terrible crimes was Julia Klöckner, a politician from Mrs Merkel's CDU party, who said: 'Such brutality is unfortunately perpetuated by natives and foreigners. This unfortunately is not a new phenomenon.'

sounds a little like what was going on in Cronulla before the whites got labelled racist when protesting.
Posted by runner, Thursday, 8 December 2016 4:36:25 PM
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Grateful: Islam offers a way of preventing these from occurring but perhaps people have other ideas.

But it doesn’t Islam actually encourages child marriage. Every Imam confirms that if it was good enough for Muhammad it’s good enough for moslem men to marry children & they do. You cannot deny that.

I have no doubt that early Islam contributed to European advancement. Prior to 14th. Century Islamic Scholars did make great advances. But then, after the 14th. Century the Mullahs took over & demanded that the Koran be the only Book as it explained everything. That’s when Islamic Society went backwards very fast. Let’s not forget that Aquinas was a Gifted Islamic Scholar at a University in Spain. He was offered his place at the University back if he converted to Christianity, & he did. Then he became a great Catholic Scholar. He also taught St. Patrick in England.

Islam went into the Dark Ages & Europe came out of the Dark ages in the 14th. Century.
Posted by Jayb, Thursday, 8 December 2016 9:31:22 PM
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Source: Was Muhammad a pedophile ? <https://islamgreatreligion.wordpress.com/2009/05/31/was-muhammad-a-pedophile-an-examination-of-muhammads-relationship-with-a-nine-year-old-girl/

The author of the above article considers the grounds for two accusations against the Prophet (peace be upon): (i) he was a paedophile & (ii) he was involved in child abuse.

ALLEGATION OF PAEDOPHILIA
Addressing the first accusation the author begins with the definition of a paedophile and diagnostic criteria according to the APA. The criteria are:
1. Over a period of at least 6 months, recurrent intense sexual urges and sexual arousing fantasies involving sexual activity with a prepubescent child or children.
2. The person has acted on these urges, or is markedly distressed by them.
3. The person is at least 16 years old and at least 5 years older than the child or children in A.
“In addition to their paedophilia, a significant number of paedophiles are concomitantly or have previously been involved in exhibitionism, voyeurism, or rape”.

The author then invites us to look to the life and marriages of the Prophet (See the table).

In addition, we know the Prophet was married to one woman, Khadijah, for 25 years. He was 25 and she was 40 when they were married. She was twice widowed. She passed away when he was 50. The Prophet was then married to Suada Bint Zama. She was 50 and a widow when they married. Ayesha started living with the Prophet when she was 9 and the Prophet was 54. The Prophet married a further 10 women, the minimum age was 17 and the maximum age was 38, 7 were known to be widows, 1 was a virgin (17 y.0.) and the widower status of the remaining 2 is unknown (1 was 30 y.o. and th age of the other is unknown).

continue...
Posted by grateful, Friday, 9 December 2016 7:29:09 AM
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Continue….

The author concludes:

"The statistics show that the prophet’s marriage to Aisha at her young age was an exception and not a norm of his other marriages. Furthermore ‘a paedophile’s main mode of sexual satisfaction is with prepubescent girls’, which is contradictory to the 91% of prophet’s marriage to women 17 years and over. An unbiased examination of Prophet’s life and his marriages to his wives blatantly rejects the notion of his lifestyle fitting that of a paedophile. All his brides were aged widows (except Aisha and Marium).
Moreover, according to the criteria in the references cited above in ‘Synopsis of Psychiatry’, a vast majority of paedophiles possess a history of exhibitionism, voyeurism, or rape. Again, there is no single reference from either religious or secular sources that the noble Prophet ever indulged in such sadistic behavior (God forbid). This truth is observed and accepted by both Muslims and unbiased non-Muslims scholars."

Before moving to the second allegation of child abuse, does anyone want to challenge these conclusions?
Posted by grateful, Friday, 9 December 2016 1:40:18 PM
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Found something cool today: how to draw Mohammed (may he be drawn as often as possible) in emojis: (((:~{>>

I also like stoned Mohammed: (((¦~)>>
Posted by Toni Lavis, Friday, 9 December 2016 7:56:38 PM
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New favourite: Mohammed being photon-torpedoed by the Starship Enterprise.

=-o * * * (((:~{>

Life is good :)
Posted by Toni Lavis, Friday, 9 December 2016 8:08:49 PM
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OK, I'll presume from the lack of response to the previous post that people can not challenge the conclusion that the Prophet was not a paedophile.

I'll copy and past the argument against the accusation of child abuse and if anyone can offer evidence to prove the contrary please do:

QUOTE
B. Others claim that the noble Prophet (peace be upon him) indulged in child-abuse when he married Aisha at her young age.
Let scrutinize this allegation…
Definition of Child Abuse:
Child Abuse, also called CRUELTY TO CHILDREN, the willful and unjustifiable infliction of pain and suffering on children. The term can denote the use of inordinate physical violence; unjustifiable verbal abuse; the failure to furnish proper shelter, nourishment, medical treatment, or emotional support; incest; other cases of sexual molestation or rape; and the making of child pornography. Frequently described by the medical profession as the “battered-child syndrome,” abusive treatment of children is almost universally proscribed by criminal statutes. Child abuse can have serious future consequences for the victims involved. Delays in physical growth, impaired language and cognitive abilities, and problems in personality development, learning, and behavior are common following instances of child abuse or neglect.Encyclopedia Britannica, 1998
Comment: None of the criteria of child-abuse applies to the noble life of the Prophet (pbuh). There is no single incident of any infliction of pain and suffering by the prophet on Aisha or any other human being for that matter. Neither any instance of verbal or sexual abuse can be concluded from the relationship of the prophet with Aisha ® or any of his wives.
An abused child can have serious future consequences…delayed physical growth, impaired language..learning and behavior…etc (above definition). As one examines the chaste life of Aisha ®, her personality, physical, mental and spiritual development are all contrary to that of an abused child. In fact through the Prophet’s marriage and his guidance to Aisha, history testifies that she should be labeled not as an abused child but as a ‘blessed child’.
QUOTE

source: https://islamgreatreligion.wordpress.com/2009/05/31/was-muhammad-a-pedophile-an-examination-of-muhammads-relationship-with-a-nine-year-old-girl/
Posted by grateful, Friday, 9 December 2016 9:41:39 PM
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I don't think it takes to many brains to think of whether you would like your young daughter to run into a group of Jesus followers or a group of Mohammed followers while out at night. Just ask the Germans. One group you might hate because they remind you of your sin but the other group is likely to see you as meat.
Posted by runner, Friday, 9 December 2016 10:29:47 PM
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Pilgrim,

I don't mind running with your religion v ideology stunt. My reading of it is that Islam is an ideology committed to kill or convert the infidel blah blah. Correct?

And presumably, your "evidence" will be verses from the Qur'an, a speech by some wahabbi cleric and "as we all know Islam was spread by the sword" narrative.

But before we begin, let me say that your disingenuous remarks about not wanting to attack any posts while casually canvassing the practicalities of deporting me and my family (along with other Australians) fills me with contempt.

I went to my son's school award day today and watched as he and other Muslim boys stood before their parents, teachers and mates with awards for first-in-class in various subjects and sport. The boys sung the national anthem, in the local aboriginal tongue and English, and I was crying. For me the anthem is a song of gratitude.

I fully understand the aversion of people in the West towards religion having to experience people of your ilk.

That said, I'll steel myself for more glib posts as you make the case for Islam being an ideology. Take it away you god-forsaken git (although I'm half expecting you'll to wimp out; that being the nature of people like you).
Posted by grateful, Friday, 9 December 2016 10:30:24 PM
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grateful:"I fully understand the aversion of people in the West towards religion having to experience people of your ilk."

I don't want to post a glib post, but please explain this sentence you wrote. In plain English please.
Posted by Bugsy, Friday, 9 December 2016 10:57:22 PM
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@grateful, , Friday, 9 December 2016 10:30:24 PM

Congratulations. You have managed to completely and utterly misunderstand my comments as well as attribute to me conclusions that I do not make.

Example: “I don't mind running with your religion v ideology stunt…”.

In so far as that may be a reference to anything I have said, you will find that in the first and second paragraphs I am quoting the Author – to whom your comments should rightly be directed. At no point do I say that I agree. Again, it is the Author who uses the word “ideology”. As to “evidence”, take that up with the Author. What on earth makes you think that I quote “ideology” with approval? In fact I go on to conclude that whatever logic the Author wishes to display is in fact misplaced, and that her overall conclusion won’t work.

You contribute further to your silliness when you say: “…let me say that your disingenuous remarks about not wanting to attack any posts while casually canvassing the practicalities of deporting me and my family (along with other Australians) fills me with contempt.”

Once again, what on earth makes you think that is my idea? I endeavour to point out (by implication) that it is openly discussed – which indeed it is, but critically I go on to point out the complete fallacy and total impracticality of such a notion – indeed I issue a warning to those of that mind that once you start down that path, there is no turning back.

As I said above, you have managed to completely and utterly misunderstand my comments as well as attribute to me conclusions that I do not make. Common decency prevents me from calling you a fool.
Posted by Pilgrim, Friday, 9 December 2016 11:34:02 PM
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Grateful, the problem that non Moslem Australian Australians have is that when things such as the Cronulla riots or the rape of a young woman happen, too few of the Moslem leaders come out publicly in the media and condemn their young men for their behavior. In the latter case, a senior imam made derogatory remarks about young women which were decidedly unhelpful to your cause. Unless your leaders are much more proactive in condemning bad behavior by your young men, this anti Moslem sentiment will continue.

On another track, I find your explanation of the Prophet's marriages to be quite reasonable, taking into account the traditions in the Arab world at the time. That is something others might also like to consider. However, these marriage traditions are not current Western traditions and it is also not helpful to your cause when people of other traditions try to maintain their traditions in Australia.

David
Posted by VK3AUU, Saturday, 10 December 2016 6:22:52 AM
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grateful,

I’m not too interesting in whether Muhammed (torment be upon him) was a paedophile or not. Paedophilia is not a crime and not all paedophiles offend. What I’m concerned about is the child sex abuse, and what occurred to Aisha was child sex abuse because she would not have felt that she could turn down or resist the advances of a man who was so much older. And even if she did consent to sex, she was too young to give that consent anyway.

Your quotes don’t get around this.

A further problem for your religion is the fact that, of all the communicating your god supposedly did through Muhammed (torment be upon him), he couldn’t even say, “Child marriage is wrong.” This is why the ‘context of the times’ argument doesn’t work. Firstly, a god would not be bound by the context of the times, and; secondly, there is no context in which child marriage is right.

Your religion is made-up nonsense, leaving its contemporary followers to defend the indefensible.
Posted by AJ Philips, Saturday, 10 December 2016 7:41:14 AM
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Runner: <<I don't think it takes to many brains to think of whether you would like your young daughter to run into a group of Jesus followers or a group of Mohammed followers while out at night. Just ask the Germans. One group you might hate because they remind you of your sin but the other group is likely to see you as meat.>>

Runner you say "other group is likely to see you as meat" about Muslims who practice their religion. It's not true. Nor can it be true that you, by any stretch of the imagination is a follower of Jesus.

From today's news, more arrests:

<<Coffs Harbour men Trent Collins, 24, and Nigel McKee, 31, have subsequently been charged with using a carriage service to procure someone under 16 for sexual activity and using a carriage service to send indecent material to a person under 16.>> http://www.theage.com.au/nsw/coffs-coast-pedo-hunter-poses-as-girl-on-dating-sites-to-confront-paedophiles-20161207-gt5o98.html

Again the names tell a story from what you are spinning. And we will not find you posting on such mundane everyday events…unless they happened to have Muslim names. Am I not correct?

The message? If you’re expecting a Christian like Runner (as opposed to a follower of Jesus) to be there for your child in the event of an attack/abuse make sure your abuser/attacker has a Muslim name.
Posted by grateful, Saturday, 10 December 2016 9:29:03 AM
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' <<Coffs Harbour men Trent Collins, 24, and Nigel McKee, 31, have subsequently been charged with using a carriage service to procure someone under 16 for sexual activity and using a carriage service to send indecent material to a person under 16.>> '

great to hear of the arrests grateful. In Iran or Saudi Arabia under Sharia it would be the victim of the rape being charged.
Posted by runner, Saturday, 10 December 2016 9:34:05 AM
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Grateful: I fully understand the aversion of people in the West towards religion having to experience people of your ilk.

You & your moslem brotherhood don’t seem to understand what it is about Islam that people in the West find offensive. I hear all the time, especially in the UK & Europe, what moslems find offensive about Western Culture. That opinion is allowed to be voiced. If people in the West express their opinion on Islamic Culture we are accused of being Racist. Why is one different to the other?

You didn’t get back to me when I provided you with the proof of your accusation that I had no proof of Muhammad being a Camel Train Thief. Why is that? In fact you never answer directly but only with a deflection. Why is that?

You know I’m right & can’t admit it, can you?

grateful: Coffs Harbour men Trent Collins, 24, and Nigel McKee, 31,

Fair enough. But, these are the exception to the Rule unlike Islam where it almost mandatory &, it's allowed because Muhammad did it & Muhammad is the authority in this matter. Isn't he?

runner: great to hear of the arrests grateful. In Iran or Saudi Arabia under Sharia it would be the victim of the rape being charged.

Yes, Why is that grateful? One of the great tenants of Sharia Law. A Law that must be forbidden to be practiced in Australia even by moslems.
Posted by Jayb, Saturday, 10 December 2016 10:13:02 AM
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Runner: <<great to hear of the arrests grateful. In Iran or Saudi Arabia under Sharia it would be the victim of the rape being charged>>
And indeed such flagrant and disturbing instances of discrimination and oppression would offend against the Shariah as much as Australian law.

From their behaviour, I don't see Runner or Pilgrim as followers of Jesus because they come with a message of hate and intolerance whereas Jesus and Muhammad came with a message of peace and love for one's neighbour:

"Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.' this is the first commandment. And the second, like it, is this: 'You shall love your neighbour as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these. " (Mark, 12: 29-31)

"Say: He is God, the One! God the self-Sufficient Besought of all!" (Qur'an, Al-Ikhlas 112: 1-2)

"So invoke the Name of thy Lord and devote thyself to Him with complete devotion" (Qur'an, Al-Muzzammil, 73:8)

The Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, said: "None of you has faith until you love for your neighbour what you love for yourself"

No-one can rationally claim Runner and Pilgrim are following Jesus in their remarks and the views that they propagate.
Posted by grateful, Saturday, 10 December 2016 2:22:36 PM
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grateful: Muhammad came with a message of peace and love for one's neighbour

But only if you are a moslems, otherwise kill them. Eh.

Do you want me to repeat all the Koranic Quotes demanding that again? There is a whole page or more full of them.
Posted by Jayb, Saturday, 10 December 2016 4:25:41 PM
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funny how you quote the bible and Jesus grateful. Every muslim I have met has told me the bible is totally corrupted and here you are quoting it as an authority. If it ain't the Jesus who died on the cross for your sins grateful then its a made up Jesus. To bad that the muslims I speak to say it wasn't Jesus but Judas. Seems you are as selective and deceitful about which bible verses you claim have authority and which barbaric koran passages you deny.
Posted by runner, Saturday, 10 December 2016 4:56:46 PM
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@grateful, Saturday, 10 December 2016 2:22:36 PM

"From their behaviour, I don't see Runner or Pilgrim as followers of Jesus because they come with a message of hate and intolerance...and the views that they propagate."

Once again grateful I call you to account for your complete and utter misunderstanding of my comments; so much so that I am beginning to suspect your condition is pathological.

If you continue to misunderstand (and totally misinterpret) what I have written, you leave me no alternative but to call you a complete fool.
Posted by Pilgrim, Saturday, 10 December 2016 5:31:46 PM
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Pilgrim,

Your premise is that the violence stems from the Qur'an and your only objection to deportation is its impracticality. Obviously, Muslims are not Australian in your eyes and don't belong here.

David,

Why should Islamic leaders be apologising when a Muslim commits a crime? Do you ask the same of Christian, Jewish, Buddhist and other faith leaders?

AJ,

The Prophet's marriage to Ayesha is perfectly defensible and it is a reflection of the integrity of Islamic scholarship that you can take issue in the first place.

To everyone,

Why don't you treat this article with the contempt it deserves? The only time the author offers support for her long list of accusations is when she quotes Archbishop Welby. The Archbishop states that Muslims believe that Jesus will return with the Prophet.

As you can easily confirm, this is false. We believe Jesus will return. We don not believe the Prophet will return. The author has no credibility.

Islam is a religion that upholds the Biblical guidance such as the 10 Commandments and the Sermon of the Mount, and in fact laid the foundations for constitutional government long before the Magna Carta, Bill of Rights or US constitution through the Charter of Medina.

Among other things the Charter guaranteed its citizens (irrespective of their beliefs) freedom of religion, consultative government, and equality before the law.
Posted by grateful, Saturday, 10 December 2016 11:18:07 PM
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grateful,

I don’t see how you have made the case that Muhammad’s (torment be upon him) marriage to Aisha was defensible. You haven’t addressed anything I said, and now you’re just re-asserting that the marriage was defensible. Furthermore, as I pointed out before, the fact that the marriage happened in the first place is a real problem for your religion, as anything that could qualify as a god would know that child marriage was wrong.

Speaking of re-asserting oneself, you never really gave any reliable evidence for your claim that Europeans/Anglos commit more child sex abuse than other ethnicities, even after I listed reasons as to why it may appear that way.

As for the article, I don't pay much attention to Babette's nonsense. Just look at her website. It links to Conservapedia, for Muhammad's sake!
Posted by AJ Philips, Sunday, 11 December 2016 4:41:21 AM
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@ grateful.

I make a final and yes, despairing attempt to you grateful to engage your intellect, and this is in spite of your being willfully obtuse.

Let’s return to what the Author wrote: she is clearly concerned about what *she* sees as the level of violence in Islam.

My sole purpose in quoting the Author was to endeavour to trace her argument to its initial conclusion: that being that violence is something "...inherent in Islam itself...". You will note that I did not, at any point, say that I agree.

If you disagree with the Author, which is to say that there’s nothing inherently violent in Islam, then address your reasons to the Author. Do not address your comments to me as I am not the one alleging this. In the same way that I remind you that I am *not* the one suggesting the wholesale deportation of Muslims, my reference is to those persons who suggest this. That you wilfully persist in attributing this suggestion to me is bizarre.

Now, are you capable of addressing the Author’s initial conclusion: that being that violence is something "...inherent in Islam itself...". , or do you dismiss the question of Islamic violence as being non-existent and therefore irrelevant?
Posted by Pilgrim, Sunday, 11 December 2016 8:57:49 AM
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Pilgrim: <<Let’s return to what the Author wrote: she is clearly concerned about what *she* sees as the level of violence in Islam.>>

Let's zero in on what is meant by "violence in Islam". Here is a list and I'll ask your advice as to whether it needs modification:

1. ISIS is following the teachings of Islam
2. Islam was spread by the sword
3. Islam teachings allow rape and domestic violence against women

Anything else?

Now, what about dealing with the violence that is inherent in Australian culture. Case in point from today's Age:

Violent brawl spills onto Flinders Street Station platforms
http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/violent-brawl-spills-onto-flinders-street-platform-20161210-gt8gic.html

Finally, those who want to deport/intern/monitor Australians who follow Islam would argue that our values are incompatible with Australian values as expressed in the Australian values Statement: https://www.border.gov.au/LifeinAustralia/Documents/lia_english_full.pdf

I would argue that they are wrong. Islam is a religion that upholds the Biblical guidance such as the 10 Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount, and in fact laid the foundations for a constitutional government, through the Charter of Medina (622 AD), long before the Magna Carta, Bill of Rights or US constitution.

Among other things, the Charter guarantees its citizens (most of whom were non-Muslims at the time) freedom of religion, consultative government, and equality before the law.

There are many here who would argue against with this position. Let them speak up.

Pilgrim, I noticed you have not disassociated yourself from those who would advocate the need (if not the practicality) of deportation. Instead, you protest: "Thems not my words".

You raised the issue as significant so it's time for you to clarify your position.
Posted by grateful, Sunday, 11 December 2016 11:09:02 AM
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We can all argue back and forth but I think this writer says it all
and while it is a depressing article to read, it does seem to hit the
nail squarely on the head.

http://tinyurl.com/znllf6r

There really is no hope for moslem countries and really there is
nothing the western or eastern countries countries can do to help.
I also agree with the author, just pull away from the middle east
and let it dissolve away.
Probably the kindest thing anyone can do.
Posted by Bazz, Sunday, 11 December 2016 11:51:54 AM
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grateful: Muslims are not Australian in your eyes and don't belong here.

Pilgrim is completely right. Islam is not right or good for Australia. It will not ever fit into Australian Society, as it Shuns Australian Society & demands Australia become Islamic & end up like the Middle East.

Grateful: the Charter guarantees its citizens (most of whom were non-Muslims at the time) freedom of religion, consultative government, and equality before the law.

But it does not deliver, if fact Islam does the exact opposite. Islam is bent on destroying all other Religions & their adherents with out mercy.

Grateful: I noticed you have not disassociated yourself from those who would advocate the need (if not the practicality) of deportation.

I definitely support the deportation of moslems even if the people ancestors have been here for 250 years. Much too dangerous a Theocracy for Australia.

Bazz: I also agree with the author, just pull away from the middle east and let it dissolve away. Probably the kindest thing anyone can do.

I agree Bazz. Send the Moslems all back to the Middle East & seal the Borders. Let no-one out & accept no moslem into any Western Country.
Posted by Jayb, Sunday, 11 December 2016 3:54:14 PM
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@runner, Thursday, 8 December 2016 4:21:59 PM.

Runner, I missed your post of 8 December, it was only recently brought to my attention. As a consequence I apologise for not replying sooner as it deserved a response. When you say in your post: “I don't think anyone in their right mind thinks deporting all muslims is a viable option nor would most want that.”, I agree, because that was the intent of my comment – albeit with rather heavy irony which I can now see has completely escaped our mutual friend grateful.

As to the second part of your post: “What is viable is to learn from our mistakes and minimise the risk by accepting refugees and others who are thankful for refuge and who don't hate western people who are not muslims.”; A fair comment which does'nt thereby make either of us a racist or Islamaphobic.
Posted by Pilgrim, Sunday, 11 December 2016 5:33:11 PM
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#Jayb, Sunday, 11 December 2016 3:54:14 PM.

"Pilgrim is completely right. Islam is not right or good for Australia..."

Jayab I am sorry to disillusion you, but I did not say that, nor did I imply that. If you still think so, then you also have misunderstood the thrust of my comments. At all relevant times I was quoting the Author in the attempt to tease out her argument. As far as I can see, the Author most certainly did imply that "Islam is not right or good for Australia...".

The tenor of my comments was directed to what might flow from the Author's final conclusion: that being the proposed "abrogation" of violence by the Muslim hierarchy in Australia.
Posted by Pilgrim, Sunday, 11 December 2016 5:47:37 PM
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Lol.
Not an intelligent conversation in sight.
Posted by grateful, Sunday, 11 December 2016 8:59:14 PM
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pilgrim: but I did not say that, nor did I imply that.

Then my apologies though I still contend that Islam is not right or good for Australia.

pilgrim: the Author's final conclusion: that being the proposed "abrogation" of violence by the Muslim hierarchy in Australia.

That will never happen.

Grateful: Not an intelligent conversation in sight.

We never ever get an intelligent conversation from you..., only deflection. So when are you leaving. Will you be taking you other friends on here with you, or have they already left for the Middle East.
Posted by Jayb, Monday, 12 December 2016 8:32:53 AM
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Jayb: Then my apologies though I still contend that Islam is not right or good for Australia.

I beg to differ. I think if people of different faiths/non-faiths engage in a practical manner and focus on addressing society's problems, then Australia has much to gain from the teachings and practice of Islam

Jayb: "So when are you leaving. Will you be taking you other friends on here with you, or have they already left for the Middle East."

And if we don't go?
Posted by grateful, Monday, 12 December 2016 1:25:53 PM
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Jayb
And what if we don't go?

Pilgrim
State your position. Do you regard Islam as a religion or an ideology?.
Posted by grateful, Monday, 12 December 2016 9:24:28 PM
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grateful: And what if we don't go?

Then Australia should use the Islamic method & lop a few heads off.

Grateful: State your position. Do you regard Islam as a religion or an ideology?.

Oh, that's easy. It's a Sociopathic Ideology masquerading as a Religion that not only wants to control its people but dominate the World.

Now wouldn't that be fun. Permanent Civil War in every Community all over the World just because moslems can't agree on anything. The World would become flat instead of round. Jinns would control Medicine. No woman would ever be seen in Public unless it was to get publicly flogged or Beheaded for being Raped. What a wonderful would that would be to live in.

NOT!
Posted by Jayb, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 8:34:56 AM
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//Australia should use the Islamic method & lop a few heads off.//

Because that's what civilised countries do? Stop watching Game of Thrones and go outside and get some fresh air. Our system of law is inherited from the British and they gave up beheading in 1747, before we were settled.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 8:47:43 AM
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Jayb: "grateful: And what if we don't go?

Then Australia should use the Islamic method & lop a few heads off."

So you're advocating murder.
Posted by grateful, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 8:49:05 AM
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Pilgrim

Your position please: ideology or religion?
Posted by grateful, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 8:52:08 AM
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grateful: So you're advocating murder.

No. It's not murder if it's done in the Islamic fashion. Is it? moslems are using our own Laws to destroy us.

Toni Lavis: the British and they gave up beheading in 1747, before we were settled.

Yes, I know that, but I'm an advocate of imposing the Laws of the Country these people came from on them. Using, say, their Immigration Laws on whether or not we could, as Christians or Atheists, settle in their Country become Citizens, build a Christian Church, show their face let alone wear a bikini shopping, etc.

So after the Islamic fashion, if they don't Convert to Christianity pay the Government a similar Tax as the Jizya Tax or wear a bikini when they go to the Beach, then lop a few heads off. Just like they would do in the Country they came from. After all, they are used to that sort of barbarity, aren't they. Scrimple, yeck!
Posted by Jayb, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 9:43:40 AM
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Islam is a religion... it is also a very demanding way of life. It covers all aspects of life; social political, religious.

It is a way of life that is vague and misinterpreted even by its adherents. It is contradictory. There is no set order within it as there is in many other religions, and almost anyone can set themselves up as a teacher or authority figure.

It is divided into sects that are continually at war with each other and at times, the rest of the world. It requires individuals to submit to its tenets, it does not allow dissent or individuals to leave under penalty of death. Its ultimate goal is to create an Islamic world.
Posted by T800, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 10:43:23 AM
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" Its ultimate goal is to create an Islamic world."

and don't you lot out there forget it.

David
Posted by VK3AUU, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 1:04:38 PM
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David: Quote Its ultimate goal is to create an Islamic world."

and don't you lot out there forget it."

Not true

I know ISIS and al-Qaeda would disagree, as would neo-cons and an eminent historians such as Huntington and the intellectual father of the Second Iraq War, Bernard Lewis, there is no desire to "conquer the world". Historically Islam was spread through peaceful means and by conquering the heart through reason and good conduct.

Even when Muslim armies invaded lands it took centuries before the majority of the population were Muslim (Richard Bulliet, Conversion to Islam in the Middievil Period).

You will have noticed that governance of Muslims in the MENA region over the last 80 years has been been through military dictatorship or absolute monarchy (in the majority of cases sponsored by the West). Historically, when leadership has been tyrannical the people have turned to their Muslim scholars for justice.

The dynamics are explained by Richard Bulliet in 'Understanding Muslim Countries' and "Religion and the State in Islam: From Medieval Caliphate to the Muslim Brotherhood ".

He has examined the Islamic court documents from the Ottoman period and concludes that justice was dispensed fairly, between rich and poor, Muslim and non-Muslim, man and women. He concludes the people have had good reason to place their trust in Islamic scholars for protection against the injustices of their rulers.

Bulliet was one of the few historians to predict the Arabic Spring suggesting he has a better grasp of the dynamics of the region than the aforementioned historians.
Posted by grateful, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 6:06:02 PM
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grateful: there is no desire to "conquer the world". Historically Islam was spread through peaceful means and by conquering the heart through reason and good conduct.

Ha, ha, ha, hawwww, ha, ha!, & if you don't convert or you are an atheist, queer & a million other reasons we'll kill you. Ha, ha, haaaaa! Peaceful? Yes, we see that all the time in Europe & the UK. Did you see the latest at the lakemba mosque. The call for a moslems Army in Australia to force Sharia law on Australians. Did I see you there with poirot, Arjay, rache, csteel etc, calling for a jihadi Army ot rise up & attack Australians until they accept Sharia Law as the only Law. Peaceful? pull the other leg it plays Jingle Bells.
Posted by Jayb, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 7:12:36 PM
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Oh Greatful you pontificate about history and think we do not see you
changing it as you go.
Islam was spread by the sword at the command of Allah and Mohammed.
Why do you think the DNA of Syrian women shows that the microdendrial
DNA is Assyrian and the male DNA is Arab ?

The DNA holds the truth.

Why did the Ottomans try to conquer Europe and were defeated at the gates of Vienna ?
Why do you think the Hungarians don't want a bar of the current invasion flow ?

Been there done that! comes to mind.
Either admit the truth of the command to take Rome or go away.
Posted by Bazz, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 10:10:36 PM
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Bazz and Jay
if what you say has any truth then I'm sure there will someone to refute what I've said in a scholarly and civilisation manner.
Cheers bros
Posted by grateful, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 10:48:22 PM
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//After all, they are used to that sort of barbarity, aren't they.//

Ah, right. We fight barbarity by embracing barbarity ourselves... wait, what? I thought barbarity was the thing we were against.

Do you really believe that two wrongs make a right? If I was your dad, I'd be monitoring your internet activities a lot more closely young lad. Clearly some irresponsible jerk out there is radicalising you.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 11:38:11 PM
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TL: We fight barbarity by embracing barbarity ourselves

Seeing that the followers of Islam are intent on Converting everyone or if they don't, kill them. How do you propose we handle the situation. Convert, just talk to them nicely & they'll see sense, trust that they won't harm us? I really would like to see you answer my question. Please don't deflect.

OH! I believe the old adage, "Do unto others as they would do unto you. only do it first."

It may eventually come to killing in Australia.(It has already started, in a small way) Seeing they are recruiting an Islamic Army at the Lakemba mosque. When push comes to shove which side do you think the Moderate moslems will take. Believers or non-believers?

Straight answers please, no deflection allowed.
Posted by Jayb, Wednesday, 14 December 2016 10:20:00 AM
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//How do you propose we handle the situation.//

Oh well.. in for a penny in for a pound.

I propose we show them how barbarity is really done. Rape their women, bludgeon their kids to death in front of them... that'll teach 'em who's boss. Any sociopaths out there keen to volunteer? Other than Jay? Oh well, I'm sure we can find enough in our supermax prisons who'd be only too happy to take on the job.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Wednesday, 14 December 2016 10:33:58 AM
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Don't you just love Islam.

http://www.9news.com.au/world/2016/12/14/10/20/saudi-woman-arrested-after-sharing-photo-of-herself-outside-without-a-hijab

Aisha said (to Mohammed) "You have made us equal to the dogs & Asses." Salih Muslim 4:1039.

"A woman may be likened to a sheep, a Cow or a Camel... for all are to be ridden." Tafsir al Qurtubi Page 172. Vol 15.

Life under Islam must be great. eh. NOT.
Posted by Jayb, Wednesday, 14 December 2016 11:31:53 AM
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Jayb: <<OH! I believe the old adage, "Do unto others as they would do unto you. only do it first.">>

So what are your plans?
Posted by grateful, Wednesday, 14 December 2016 11:36:03 AM
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JB to Gratefull: Did you see the latest at the lakemba mosque. The call for a moslems Army in Australia to force Sharia law on Australians. Did I see you there with poirot, Arjay, rache, csteel etc, calling for a jihadi Army ot rise up & attack Australians until they accept Sharia Law as the only Law. Peaceful? pull the other leg it plays Jingle Bells.

No comment on this, my friend. Why is that?

grateful: So what are your plans?

When the Ship hits the Sand, I should imagine you will be one of the first not to know. ;-)
Posted by Jayb, Wednesday, 14 December 2016 3:18:08 PM
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Jayb:"No comment on this, my friend. Why is that?"

Because you make up stories with a view to promoting hatred and violence.

By the Shariah: A Muslim that arrives in any country accepts the protection of the country and in so doing must abide by its rules. Secondly, an army cannot be formed by an individual. An army requires the existence of a government and state. There is only one army the Shariah would recognise in Australia and that is the Australian army.

Jayb:"When the Ship hits the Sand, I should imagine you will be one of the first not to know. ;-)"

I'm not into country music but whatever you mean by this it sounds like you are planning a terrorist act.
Posted by grateful, Wednesday, 14 December 2016 4:44:43 PM
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//it sounds like you are planning a terrorist act.//

Yes... given his previous comments in favour of barbarity and beheading, I think maybe somebody should report this clearly disturbed person to the terrorist hotline before he hurts somebody.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Wednesday, 14 December 2016 6:15:09 PM
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Grateful: Because you make up stories with a view to promoting hatred and violence.

Don’t you ever watch the News

https://au.news.yahoo.com/nsw/a/26035713/call-for-muslim-army-in-australia/#page1

Grateful: sounds like you are planning a terrorist act.

It sounds like moslems are planning more than a Terrorist attack.

Let me quote the Koran. All though you would know these verses of by heart.

Ch 2 v191. Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme.

Ch2 v216. Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.

Ch 4 v 95. Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the Cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home): unto all (in faith) hath Allah promised good: but those who strive and fight hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward.

Ch 8:39: “And fight them until there is no more disbelief in Islam and the religion will all be for Allâh Alone...”

Ch 9:123: “O you who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are close to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allâh is with those who are the pious.”

I could go on & on & on. If a moslems demands a kuffer do something & they refuse that is waging War on Islam.

& just whose side are you going to be on Tony, with the moslems I guess.
Posted by Jayb, Wednesday, 14 December 2016 8:21:47 PM
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..and I think he's saying: When the proverbial hits the fan I wont know what happened

Is this what you're saying Jayb?
Posted by grateful, Wednesday, 14 December 2016 8:22:34 PM
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Jayb: "Ch 2 v191. Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme."

Jayb, whoever is feeding you this stuff is playing you for a fool. I may not to have time to cover all the quotes (although i'll try) but you can look up the tafsir for all your verses from the link below.

You'll see how critically important it is to defer to scholars for interpretation of the Qur'aan. ISIS and others have no scholars and do what you do: apply their own self-serving interpretation.

The following are excerpts from the Tafsir, Interpretation, of one of the most eminent scholars of the 20 Century, Mufti Muhammad Shafi Usmani. These were originally broadcast in Urdu to a Pakistani radio audience in the 1960s (maybe 1970s). So they represent Islamic teachings. they come from Vol. 1 of Maariful Quran, pp482-485; (or PDF pages: pp498-501) which can be downloaded from http://www.maarifulquran.net/index.php/maarifulquran-english-pdf


The translations of the verses are:
"And fight in the way of Allah against those who fight you and do not transgress. Verily, Allah does not like the transgressors. And kill them wherever you find them and drive them out from where they drove you out, and Fitnah (to create disorder) is more severe than to kill. And do not fight them near Al-Masjid al-Harim unless they fight you there. However, if they fight you (there) you may kill them. Such is the reward of the disbelievers. (2:190-191)


Excerpts from the commentary:

"fighting against disbelievers was prohibited prior to the emigration to Madina is a fact the entire Muslim community agrees upon. All verses revealed during that time advised Muslims to be patient against pains inflicted on them by disbelievers, even to ignore and forgive when they can. It was after the emigration to Madina that the first command to fight against them came through this verse"

continue....
Posted by grateful, Wednesday, 14 December 2016 11:59:13 PM
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Continue…
 
" The command in this verse is that Muslims should fight only those disbelievers who come to fight against them. It means that there are other people too who do not take part in fighting, such as, the women, the children, the very old, the priests and monks and others devoting themselves to quiet religious pursuits, and the physically handicapped, and those casual labourers who work for disbelievers and do not go to fight along with them; it is not permissible to kill such people in a Jihad. The reason is that the command in the verse is restricted to fighting those who come to fight Muslims. "
 
"The kind of people mentioned above are not all fighters. That is why Muslim Jurists , have also ruled that should a woman, an old man or religious person take part in actual fighting along with disbelievers or be helping them in any manner in their fight against the Muslims, then, killing them is permissible because they come under the purview of 'those who fight you."
 
The battle orders of the Holy Prophet given to the mujahidin of Islam at the time of Jihad carry a good explanation of this injunction. A hadith from al-Bukhari and Muslim, as narrated by the blessed companion 'Abdullah ibn 'Umar, it is said: 'The Holy Prophet has prohibited the killing of women and children.'
 
The following instructions from the Holy Prophet given to the companions going on Jihad have been narrated in a hadith from Anas which appears in Abu Daud: 'Go for Jihad in the name of Allah adhering to the community of the Messenger of Allah. Do not kill anyone old and weak, any young child or any woman.'
 
When Sayyidna Abu Bakr al-Saddiq sent Yazid ibn Sufiyan to Syria he gave him the same instructions. Also added there is the prohibition of killing the religiously-devoted, the monks and priests, and the labourers employed by disbelievers, especially when they do not take part in fighting…
 
 
Continue…
Posted by grateful, Thursday, 15 December 2016 1:52:26 PM
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Continue…
"The expression ..( and do not transgress) towards the end of the verse, according to the majority of the commentators means - 'do not go beyond the limit in fighting as to start killing women and children'. "

" …..the verse 191,…. (And kill them: wherever you find them and drive them out from where they drove you out...), was revealed after the happening at Hudaybiyyah at a time when the Holy Prophet & decided, in accordance with the condition agreed upon in the Peace Treaty of Hudaybiyyah, to embark on a journey to Makkah to perform the qadi' of 'Umrah along with his Companions, something he was stopped from doing a year before by the disbelievers of Makkah. The noble Companions, on the eve of this projected journey, had started to worry about the disbelievers who could not be trusted upon in a peace treaty. If they chose to be aggressive, as they did a year before, what option are they going to take? Thereupon, the words used in the present verse gave them the permission to meet the challenge of their aggression and kill them where they find them. And if they could, it was permissible for them to drive the disbelievers out from where they had driven the believers out."

That concludes the commentary to Qu'ran 2:190-191

In relation to the article, that was from Jan 2015. I'm no fan of Hizbut Tahir but you'll notice it was the journalist, not HT, who said " They were told Australia's democratic government has to go in favour of an Islamic Caliphate ruled by Sharia Law." and there was nothing in what the journalist quoted that supported the headline: Muslim army in Australia. The journalist states he had a full recording of the proceedings so if such a remark was actually made he would have quoted it directly. So the journalist has deliberately misrepresented what took place.

Like I said, don't let yourself be played for a fool
Posted by grateful, Thursday, 15 December 2016 6:23:12 PM
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One interpretation of the Koran is no more relevant than another. It says what it says, you cannot take one interpretation and claim it as the only truth.
Posted by Billyd, Thursday, 15 December 2016 7:19:50 PM
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Grateful: You'll see how critically important it is to defer to scholars for interpretation of the Qur'aan.

Yes, well you want to talk to you fellow compatriots about that.

Grateful: And kill them wherever you find them and drive them out from where they drove you out, and Fitnah (to create disorder) is more severe than to kill.

Meaning that if you sneak in pretending to be refugees to a Country & they don’t want you & send you back then that is a declaration of War against Islam & therefore moslems have the right to take up arms & create havoc in that country.

Grateful: Muslims should fight only those disbelievers who come to fight against them.

This is generally interpreted by Islam as anyone who refuses anything a moslem demands is declaring War on Islam. Such as refusing to convert. Sending them out of the country they have infiltrated (as in Australia, EU & the UK) refusing not to eat Pork, Refusing to allow them to build a mosque. Wearing moslen inappropriate clothing (Bikini) & Banning the birka, etc.

Grateful: 'The Holy Prophet has prohibited the killing of women and children.'

I notice they take a lot of notice of that one. Eh!

Grateful: Do not kill anyone old and weak, any young child or any woman.'

Or that one.

Grateful: "fighting against disbelievers was prohibited prior to the emigration to Madina is a fact the entire Muslim community agrees upon.

Yes I know the story. Muhhomad was beaten twice at Medina. So he sent his emiseries into Medina to convince the Jews to rise up against the Christians & they would be spared & given part of the spoil. The Jews joined him & they combined to beat the Christians then the moslems massacred the Jews. It’s called “Taqiyya” isn’t it. Proving that you can never trust anything a moslem says.

You are full of crap grateful. I see another one of your Compatriots got caught planning to wage War on Australia today.
Posted by Jayb, Thursday, 15 December 2016 7:26:20 PM
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//just whose side are you going to be on Tony//

Who is Tony? Are you talking to voices that only you can hear, Jayb? My name is Toni. If you don't like it, you may call me 'sir', 'dude', 'cobber', 'comrade', any title you like really. But please cease and desist from misspelling my name. I extend you the same courtesy, don't I?

Now that we've got that misunderstanding cleared up: I'll be on the side of the civilised people, fighting every step of the way against barbarity. My ancestors have worked too long and hard, and survived against the odds against one too many Potato Famine, for me to not stand against barbarity. I'll be fighting against those who want to drag our civilisation into the mire of sword, fire and rape. I'll be fighting to preserve the things that matter, likes books and science and logic. When the call is made, all who fly under the banner of House Ravenclaw will flock to the side of Reason.

Knowledge is Power!
Posted by Toni Lavis, Thursday, 15 December 2016 9:42:38 PM
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And all that lovely talk while they are tearing themselves apart in
that cesspit known as the Middle East.

No point worrying about it, they are Arabs and that is what they do.
Posted by Bazz, Thursday, 15 December 2016 10:32:19 PM
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TL: But please cease and desist from misspelling my name. I extend you the same courtesy, don't I?

My apologies, just a slip, there is no need to go ballistic Toni.

Anyway, nice deflection, but I'll catch it on the Boundary. I'll put the question another way. Will you join the West or will you join with the moslems when the "S#it hits the Fan?" A direct question requires a direct answer. If you deflect again I'll know where you stand.

O' my friend grateful
Come on, let us hear
crap by the spadeful
give us another, Taqiyya.
Posted by Jayb, Friday, 16 December 2016 7:41:35 AM
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I am not sure where the boundary is but not all the middle east inhabitants are Arabs even though they might be mainly Moslems.
According to Wikipedia Arabs primarily inhabit the 22 Arab states within the Arab League: Algeria, Bahrain, Comoros, Djibouti, Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Mauritania, Morocco, Oman, Palestine, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, Tunisia, United Arab Emirates and Yemen. Iran is not an Arab country.

David
Posted by VK3AUU, Friday, 16 December 2016 8:59:02 AM
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Toni: I'll be on the side of the civilised people, fighting every step of the way against barbarity.....knowledge is power

Beutiful. And let truth be your sword
Posted by grateful, Friday, 16 December 2016 12:24:55 PM
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"Bazz and Jay
if what you say has any truth then I'm sure there will someone to refute what I've said in a scholarly and civilisation manner.
Cheers bros"

Well if you doubt Islam was spread by the sword then you are no scholar and there will be no point telling you otherwise because apparently you live in denial.

If you were not Muslim you were Kafir and if you lived in an Islamic country you needed to Convert, leave, die or be a Dhimmi and pay the tax. Protection money if you like.

If you decide to change your religion you become an apostate and the "price" of apostasy is death.

Then there are those other less than honest behaviours sanctioned in Islam like Taqiyya and Kitman... and that is just scratching the surface.
Posted by T800, Friday, 16 December 2016 7:53:27 PM
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grateful: Beutiful. And let truth be your sword

& what side would that be grateful? The Islamic side or the enlightened Western side? No deflection now, just "Islamic" or "the Western side."

If you deflect again I'll know where you stand.
Posted by Jayb, Friday, 16 December 2016 8:17:19 PM
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Jayb

As Toni said the side of reason and civilisation.

Not the side of barbarity. People like yourself who resort to violence when reason invariably fails to affirm their violent and intolerent ideologies.

This is what you did when you declared your intention to decapitate Muslims and myself.
Posted by grateful, Friday, 16 December 2016 10:56:29 PM
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Jay
Did you read about the hsc results and look at the photos of students who have had their heads down studying hard for most of their lives ?

http://www.smh.com.au/national/education/hsc-results-2016-james-ruse-agricultural-high-school-tops-the-hsc-for-the-21st-year-running-20161215-gtbnwa.html

I want these guys, as well as those who didnt do so well and need a second chance, to have the chance to do well and not be thwarted by the lawlessness and barbarity you are advocating
Posted by grateful, Saturday, 17 December 2016 8:15:30 AM
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grateful: Thank you for your clear & concise answer. So you intent is to join with the Islamists & fight against anyone who does not convert, pay the Jizya Tax or is GLBT, non-moslems. These people will be beheaded by your moslems army of course. Peaceful, eh! not.

Australia should have to wait until you army starts it's rampage against Australian. All moslems must be sent packing as soon as it can be arranged.

Of course would invoke: from https://quran.com/

Chap 60:9 Allah only forbids you from those who fight you because of religion and expel you from your homes and aid in your expulsion - [forbids] that you make allies of them. And whoever makes allies of them, then it is those who are the wrongdoers.

Chap 47:4 Yusuf Ali

Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.
Posted by Jayb, Saturday, 17 December 2016 9:37:07 AM
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grateful is this what moslems have planned for Australia. I believe so & if we refuse you then you believe we have declared war on Islam when the opposite is true.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZINdCAmdXoQ

How say you?
Posted by Jayb, Saturday, 17 December 2016 5:20:15 PM
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I've found a forum where people of different faiths can have intellelligent and purposeful discussion. I'm done with barbarians
Posted by grateful, Saturday, 17 December 2016 9:52:29 PM
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Jayb

From those Muslims I do know the 'plan' is to raise children who respect their parents and elders, learn and follow the teachings of Islam, support the broader community, educate themselves and start families.

Hope that helps
Posted by grateful, Saturday, 17 December 2016 10:55:56 PM
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An important source of Islamic teaching is Al-Ghazali's Revival of the Religious Sciences. Look through it and see if what you say is correct:

"The Revival of the Religious Sciences (I&#7717;y&#257;&#702; &#703;ul&#363;m al-d&#299;n) is widely regarded as the greatest work of Muslim spirituality, and is perhaps the most read work in the Muslim world, after the Qur&#702;&#257;n.
The Revival of the Religious Sciences is divided into four parts, each containing ten chapters. Part one deals with knowledge and the requirements of faith—ritual purity, prayer, charity, fasting, pilgrimage, recitation of the Qur&#702;&#257;n, and so forth; part two concentrates on people and society—the manners related to eating, marriage, earning a living, and friendship; parts three and four are dedicated to the inner life of the soul and discuss first the vices that people must overcome in themselves and then the virtues that they must strive to achieve. Below are details of the contents of the books, translations (mainly into English) and a link to the original Arabic here for the first time on the internet."
http://www.ghazali.org/
Posted by grateful, Sunday, 18 December 2016 5:11:51 AM
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grateful: An important source of Islamic teaching is Al-Ghazali's Revival of the Religious Sciences. Look through it and see if what you say is correct:

Taqiyya & Kitman. The real aim of Islam.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZINdCAmdXoQ
Posted by Jayb, Sunday, 18 December 2016 7:48:14 AM
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Jayb,

I'm very strict with my kids on being honest, even if it is against themselves:

Two verses from the Quar'an:

“O you who believe! Fear God, and be with those who are true (in word and deeds).” (Quran 9:119)

or

"And, do not cloak (and confuse) the truth with falsehood. Do not suppress the truth knowingly. (The Noble Quran, 2:42)"

Here is an example of what Muslims are taught about honesty:
http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/1669/honesty/

Whoever is giving you this information is playing you for a fool. To protect yourself you need to think a bit more critically and follow up on the facts (in this case the teachings of Islam).

“Reliance of the Traveller: A Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law”, is an authoritative translation of a classical text and Section r8.0 “Lying” will provide the rulings according to the Shariah.

Nowhere does it say “it is permissible to lie to non-believers” or a person being a non-muslim makes it permissible to lie to them. A full online pdf version is available here: https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/the-reliance-of-the-traveller.pd
Posted by grateful, Monday, 19 December 2016 2:57:28 PM
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I'm sure that's what we all teach our kids. but:

While the Qur’an encourages honesty between believers (Sura 40:28), deception directed at non-Muslims, generally known in Arabic as taqiyya, has full Qur’anic support.

The Qur’an (Sura 2:225, 3:28, 3:54, 9:3, 16:106, 40:28, and 66:2) establishes the religious legitimacy of breaking oaths, lying, unilaterally violating treaties, and generally scheming against non-Muslims. Allah Himself is described as “the best of schemers” (3:54, 8:30, 10:21), and Muhammad declared, as a justification for murdering unarmed prisoners after offering them safe passage, “war is deceit” (see the Hadith collection of Bukhari, vol. 4, book 52, nos. 268-271).

The Qur’an and later sources command the obedient Muslim to be engaged in eternal war, jihad, with the non-Muslim world until the supremacy of Islam over the entire world is complete. More than 120 times ((2:193, 4:89-90, 8:12, 8:39, 9:5, 9:11, 9:25, 9:29, 9:39, inter alia; and see here for detailed discussion) the Qur’an calls Muslims to jihad until Islam is the only or dominant religion in the world.

what is the value of a treaty with a country under the control of Muslim extremists who subscribe to this iteration of Islam? The answer to that question comes from Muslim scholars themselves: "By their very nature, treaties (with non-Muslims) must be of temporary duration, for in Muslim legal theory, the normal relations between Muslim and non-Muslim territories are not peaceful, but warlike" (Majid Khadduri, War and Peace in the Law of Islam, Baltimore: The Johns Hopkins Press, 1955, p. 220); and “…open-ended truces are illegitimate if Muslims have the strength to renew the war against them [non-Muslims]" (Ahmad Mahmud Karima, Al-Jihad fi'l Islam: Dirasa Fiqhiya Muqarina, p. 461, quoted by Raymond Ibrahim.

For a more graphic example, note the comments of an Australian Muslim cleric Abu Bakr, also known as Abdul Nacer Benbrika :

"I am telling you that my religion doesn't tolerate other religions. It doesn't tolerate (them). The only one law which needs to spread, it can be here or anywhere else, has to be Islam.”

Cont
Posted by Jayb, Monday, 19 December 2016 4:05:29 PM
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cont

Along the same lines, in Kuala-Lumpur (Malaysia), Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadi-Nejad declared that: “... Islam will soon be the domineering force in the world...the world will be in the hands of Islam over the next few years” (ITAR/TASS Russian news agency, March 5, 2006 quoted here and here based upon here).

In March 2009, Saudi legal expert Basem Alem publicly echoed similar sentiments:

As a member of the true religion, I have a greater right to invade [others] in order to impose a certain way of life [according to Shari'a], which history has proven to be the best and most just of all civilizations. This is the true meaning of offensive jihad. When we wage jihad, it is not in order to convert people to Islam, but in order to liberate them from the dark slavery (i.e., adherence to other religions) in which they live.”

Mustafa Mashhur, explains some of the fundamental concepts of the Muslim Brotherhood ideology:

- "...the Islamic Ummah [nation]... can regain its power and be liberated and assume its rightful position which was intended by Allah, as the most exalted nation among men, as the teachers of humanity..."

- "It should be known that Jihad and preparation towards Jihad are not only for the purpose of fending-off assaults and attacks of Allah's enemies from Muslims, but are also for the purpose of realizing the great task of establishing an Islamic state and strengthening the religion and spreading it around the world..."
There can be no reconciliation between such an ideology and the western concepts of peace, freedom and democracy.

While lying to the faithful is Haram, lying to the Kaffir is not.
Posted by Jayb, Monday, 19 December 2016 4:08:31 PM
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Jayb; That of course means that Oaths swearing loyalty in
Nationalisation ceremonies and in courts are meaningless.
Posted by Bazz, Monday, 19 December 2016 5:52:48 PM
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But Jayb you are being dishonest in not providing the name of the person who is interpreting the Quran in this manner. What is this person's name?

As for quoting the words of convicted criminals and extremists to represent Islam that is a cheap stunt. We are discussing the teachings of Islam not of those who have gone against the traditional teachings.
Posted by grateful, Monday, 19 December 2016 6:01:58 PM
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Grateful: the name of the person who is interpreting the Quran in this manner. What is this person's name?

This is a deflection.

Just about every Quote I have given you has had the name of the person translating it. You obviously only see what you want to see.

Grateful: As for quoting the words of convicted criminals and extremists to represent Islam that is a cheap stunt. We are discussing the teachings of Islam not of those who have gone against the traditional teachings.

They are moslems & they are taken very seriously by most moslems in the World including Australia.

Bazz: That of course means that Oaths swearing loyalty in Nationalisation ceremonies and in courts are meaningless.

Of course they are. It’s not OK to lie to a moslem but it is to a Kaffir. That is something you cannot deny, grateful. The Koran is quite specific on that.

UK & Sharia Law, not in Australia yet, but it’s being pushed a tiny bit at a time. Fences around swimming pools, separate days for men & women, Sharia Courts, no Christmas, Easter, Halal payments, anything that “might” offend a moslem is demanded to be stopped or it’s a declaration of War if it isn’t. It’s Australia. Assimilate & accept out Laws & Customs or leave. Scrimple really.

https://www.facebook.com/OfficialBritainFirst/videos/1212883368856922/

https://www.facebook.com/BIRMINGHAMCRUSADER/videos/1725240964460076/

It’s good to Rape White women.
http://freedomdaily.com/muslim-professor-refugees/

I guess you are pretending to be a Moderate moslem. Let me remind you of the Words of the esteemed P.M. of Turkey. “There are no moderate moslems. The term ‘moderate moslem’ is ugly & offensive. There is no moderate Islam, Islam is Islam.”

Last Friday I just had my third Major Surgery for the year. A Left Elbow Olecranan Bursectomy. The Surgeon took a Golfball size Crystalized Growth from my Elbow, Shaved a Spur & repaired the hole my WD40 was leaking out of. It’s been a fun year.

Anyway. Merry Christmas to everybody & pray next year isn’t as bad as this one has been World Wide.
Posted by Jayb, Wednesday, 21 December 2016 8:08:41 AM
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Grateful, I wonder what your take in this is then?

Radical group calls for global Islamic rule

RADICAL Islamic group Hizb ut-Tahrir held a rally in front of hundreds of supporters in Western Sydney last night denouncing the US.

David
Posted by VK3AUU, Wednesday, 21 December 2016 11:58:12 AM
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Jayb, you are the one deflecting.

Consider these 2 paragraphs from your post:

<<The Qur’an (Sura 2:225, 3:28, 3:54, 9:3, 16:106, 40:28, and 66:2) establishes the religious legitimacy of breaking oaths, lying, unilaterally violating treaties, and generally scheming against non-Muslims. Allah Himself is described as “the best of schemers” (3:54, 8:30, 10:21), and Muhammad declared, as a justification for murdering unarmed prisoners after offering them safe passage, “war is deceit” (see the Hadith collection of Bukhari, vol. 4, book 52, nos. 268-271).

The Qur’an and later sources command the obedient Muslim to be engaged in eternal war, jihad, with the non-Muslim world until the supremacy of Islam over the entire world is complete. More than 120 times ((2:193, 4:89-90, 8:12, 8:39, 9:5, 9:11, 9:25, 9:29, 9:39, inter alia; and see here for detailed discussion) the Qur’an calls Muslims to jihad until Islam is the only or dominant religion in the world.>>

Whose interpretation (and i'm not just talking about translation but interpretation) are you using when you say certain verses "establish the religious legitimacy of breaking oaths, lying, unilaterally violating treaties, and generally scheming against non-Muslims" or "the Qur’an calls Muslims to jihad until Islam is the only or dominant religion in the world"?

As for the other sources their views are at variance with traditional Islamic teachings and practice. What you are witnessing today is the result of 2 centuries of attacks on the authority and influence of the ulema (Islamic scholars) by authoritarian rulers in the MENA region because the ulema have traditionally been the ones to whom Muslims have turned when faced with injustices of tyrants (see references to Bulliet in a previous post). The vacuum of ignorance has been filled by the likes of Al Qaeda and ISIS.

The question is whether they are truly following Islamic teachings? The distinction is absolutely critical in understanding the problem and addressing it.

For an example of what a real Jihad looks like read the bio of Abdelkader: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emir_Abdelkader
Posted by grateful, Wednesday, 21 December 2016 12:08:01 PM
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Bazz,
Actions speak louder than words:

"Five schools across Sydney are bucking the trend of Australia's decline in science, technology, engineering and mathematics, leaping more than 10 places compared to their overall HSC ranking to become one of the state's top 20 schools for STEM, a Fairfax Media analysis has revealed.
Among those leading the way is Auburn's Islamic non-government school Al-Faisal which surpassed its overall ranking by 23 places to finish equal 19th on the STEM scoreboard."

http://www.smh.com.au/national/education/hsc-results-2016-the-schools-that-topped-stem-courses-20161220-gtets4.html
Posted by grateful, Wednesday, 21 December 2016 12:09:02 PM
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David: Grateful, I wonder what your take in this is then? Radical group calls for global Islamic rule

In terms of the group, HT, I think I'm addressing the problem i have with such groups already in relation to the teachings of traditional Islam.

In regard to article that you mention: It is garbage and I'm surprised you would quote it as a reliable source.

The heading states: "Hizb ut-Tahrir: Radical group calls for global Islamic rule during Sydney protest about Syria"

But the article does not quote anyone to this effect. The video is heavily edited so that when the speaker states that there are 4 things "we need to do", it breaks off to the end when the crowd saying allahu akhbar.

Obviously the journalist does not want us to hear the actual message being delivered. Why? It would contradict the message the journalist wants us to hear.

So my conclusion is the article is fabricating news and not reporting it and i cann't see how anyone can reasonably conclude otherwise.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/hizb-uttahrir-radical-group-calls-for-global-islamic-rule-during-sydney-protest-about-syria/news-story/cc91df71ccd3ad269ee3b1ccdb9868ea
Posted by grateful, Wednesday, 21 December 2016 12:30:10 PM
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With regards to the Islamic Demonstration. RADICAL Islamic group Hizb ut-Tahrir held a rally in front of hundreds of supporters in Western Sydney last night denouncing the US.

grateful: So my conclusion is the article is fabricating news and not reporting it and I can't see how anyone can reasonably conclude otherwise.

"There are none so blind than those who cannot see." So what do you say the Demonstration was about?

What do you say the Demonstrations in my posts were about? You didn't say anything about them. Why is that?

https://www.facebook.com/OfficialBritainFirst/videos/1212883368856922/

https://www.facebook.com/BIRMINGHAMCRUSADER/videos/1725240964460076/

What do you say this moslems woman was on about? She says it OK to Rape White Women (Slaves) because Muhammad instructs it to happen therefore it must be a good thing. Anyway you women are only "As cows or Animals" according to Aishia. So why should I take any notice of what you say. Woman!

Aishia said (to Mohammed) "You have made us equal to the dogs & Asses."

Salih Muslim 4:1039.

"A woman may be likened to a sheep, a Cow or a Camel... for all are to be ridden."

Tafsir al Qurtubi Page 172. Vol 15.

Life under Islam must be great. eh. NOT.

It’s good to Rape White women.
http://freedomdaily.com/muslim-professor-refugees/

grateful: Jayb, you are the one deflecting.

I can't see how. All of my posts are accompanied with whose translation it is.

Ie; see the Hadith collection of Bukhari, vol. 4, book 52, nos. 268-271).

(Majid Khadduri, War and Peace in the Law of Islam, Baltimore: The Johns Hopkins Press, 1955, p. 220); and “…open-ended truces are illegitimate if Muslims have the strength to renew the war against them [non-Muslims]" (Ahmad Mahmud Karima, Al-Jihad fi'l Islam: Dirasa Fiqhiya Muqarina, p. 461, quoted by Raymond Ibrahim.

Chap 47:4 Yusuf Ali.

I have crossed referenced hundreds of Passages by dozens of different Translators. Regardless, all the translations, by no matter "Who," for all intended purposes are identical. So what you are asking, is just a deflection.
Posted by Jayb, Wednesday, 21 December 2016 1:22:51 PM
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Deflecting Jayb.

A bit of panic setting in?

Who is the author of "your" post: http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=18693#333745
Posted by grateful, Wednesday, 21 December 2016 1:29:04 PM
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Fatwa
"A man can have sex with animals such as sheep , cows , camels etc. However he should kill the animal after he has his orgasm. He shouldn't sell the meat to the people in his own village; however selling the meat to the next door village should be fine" Khomeini's book "Tahrir- al-Vasyleh"...

Apparently it’s OK for your neighbor & your husband to have sex slaves. That way he can visit the neighbor & get his rocks off with the neighbors Slave girl. Then invite his neighbor back to his home & then the neighbor can have sex with your husbands Slave girl. & according to this guy you’ll be fine with that. Is that right?

http://patriotnews.uk/slavery-sex-slaves-in-islam-video-2/

You have said nothing about the female Professor saying that it’s OK to Rape White girls. I guess you’re OK with that.

While I don’t know who is directly responsible for the quotes this is the Site my Quotes came for.

https://quran.com/

2:225 &#64337;Not&#64338;will take you to task&#64339;Allah&#64340;for (what is) unintentional&#64341;in&#64342;your oaths&#64343;[and] but&#64344;He takes you to task&#64345;for what&#64346;(have) earned&#64347;your hearts&#64348;&#64349;And Allah&#64350;(is) Oft-Forgiving&#64351;Most Forbearing&#64352;

It was in Arabic when I copied it.

Surah Yasin (Yaseen) Surah Ar-Rahman Surah Al Mulk |Ayat Al-Kursi

Is that valid enough for you.
Posted by Jayb, Wednesday, 21 December 2016 6:14:53 PM
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Before I begin allow me to demonstrate an awareness of the grot of Islam and undermine a false image. Putin supports Khadyrov, which in turn enables Khadyrov to maintain a horrific interpretation of Islam (child-marriage, domestic violence, denigration of women [they're all about foreigners because foreign women are just better, but of course there is more to it such as treatment of minorities]). Putin i seen to prance about in Syria like Islam is simply unacceptable, which is a false image. Putin is about power, not a code and does not belong fully to the revolutionary democratic tradition (French Revolution, Haiti Revolution, Suffragettes <---> Pussy Riot and so on and so forth).

https://www.opendemocracy.net/od-russia/zura-khatueva/%E2%80%98-chechen-mentality%E2%80%99

My multi-culturalism would dictate that women matter as much as men, that non-Muslims as much as Muslims. This multi-culturalism sees the Sydney city decision to exclude Christmas from banners as pitiful. I'm not that type of bleeding heart leftist. Bring on a challenge to multi-culturalism, or to socialism, please!
Posted by Abraham Lewik, Thursday, 22 December 2016 9:32:19 AM
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JayB,

I come to these comments very late, but to you (other watchers lurking online) I make a challenge. If Muslim immigration should be banned so to should Christian immigration, if their religious materials are to be banned so to should Christian materials. My own position is that neither should, and that migrants should be judged by actions more than ideas.

They worship a Divinity who is responsible for everything evil. - Isaiah 45:7

Suffragettes championing women's right to vote had to speak from behind a curtain. This was the Christian burqa (which was actually the wimple). - http://www2.maxwell.syr.edu/plegal/history/reedwq1.html

Jesus said "Sell your clothes and buy a sword" - Luke 22:36

Christian ideology is responsible for killing witches & possessed, in modern times. Google Joan Vollmer.
Posted by Abraham Lewik, Thursday, 22 December 2016 9:40:57 AM
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In the Middle East, the secular nations are not doing so well. Compare Iraq to Iran, which is more stable? Saudi Arabia to Syria, which is wealthier? Afghanistan to Oman, which has more violence?

Compare suicide rates between religious and secular nations. The former absolutely has obfuscated data, nevertheless when inflated by say 20% the suicide rate is still less than some secular nations like Australia or Korea.

Would it seem unreasonable that a common identity is necessary for a healthy community? What identity would unite the Middle East?

ISIS / Daesh is horrific, they kill people for magic and take sex slaves to found an Islamic state. What had to happen to found a Jewish state? Wasn't much better. In contemporary times it (Israel) is better than ISIS / Daesh, absolutely. Even so, they still cruise through Palestine and tear down street signs, destroy fishing boats, and prevent charitable donations reaching the intended recipients.
Posted by Abraham Lewik, Thursday, 22 December 2016 9:47:44 AM
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Fourth & finally, I fully accept One Nation. That party mostly honestly represents its constituents. The 2 big ones do not and cannot because what code or ideology unites 10 000 000 Australian citizens? One Nation represents the de-monopolisation of politics, to some extent. I am disgusted when the 2 big ones try and wick up her supporters instead of producing a code / ideology worth championing.
Posted by Abraham Lewik, Thursday, 22 December 2016 9:55:50 AM
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Abraham Lewik, you are extremely hard to understand, but I will try.

AL: Putin I seen to prance about in Syria.

What ever Putin is doing in Syria, it's working. The US, misguidedly, supported the Rebels who are the enemy of the US. No-one in the World understands that. As for what's happening in Chechena, I don't have a clue other than it's overrun by some very nasty moslems.

AL: My multi-culturalism would dictate that women matter as much as men, that non-Muslims as much as Muslims.

It's not Australians that are against Multi-Culturism, as such. it's the moslems. They demand that Australians integrate with Islam, or else.

AL: If Muslim immigration should be banned so to should Christian immigration,

Yes we all know about those passages in the Bible. Christianity hasn't acted on those passages for about 300 years. Christians don't thake the Bible as literal. Moslems take their Koran as literal & take every opportunity to act on it, therefore it should be banned in Australia under 18c.

AL: In the Middle East, the secular nations are not doing so well. Compare Iraq to Iran, which is more stable? Saudi Arabia to Syria, which is wealthier? Afghanistan to Oman, which has more violence?

Where are the Secular nations in this lot. There are none. Apart from Saudi Arabia which is one of the worst Human Rights Violators on the Planet.

AL: What identity would unite the Middle East?

Certainly not Islam. All the different Sect seem hate each other more than they hate Kaffirs.

AL: I fully accept One Nation. That party mostly honestly represents its constituents.

You can say that again, it's true.

AL: The 2 big ones do not and cannot because what code or ideology unites 10 000 000 Australian citizens?

The big 2 are more interested in fighting each other than Governing for the People.

AL: One Nation represents the de-monopolisation of politics, to some extent.

One would hope so. She just has to weed out the stooges sent in by the Big 2 to ruin her again.
Posted by Jayb, Thursday, 22 December 2016 10:35:11 AM
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Jayb, there are 2 reasons why you would fail to fess up to the authorship of your post, http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=18693#333745.

The first is the blatant failure to acknowledge sources. This would make your behaviour dishonest and your repeated failure to respond to my request for the sources deception.

Secondly, the true author is not a scholar of Islamic teachings. The author is Israeli educator David Meir-Levi and the article you have plagiarised is David Meir-Levi TAQIYYA VS. OUR PRESIDENT Is Taqiyya winning? January 18, 2012, From <http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/119649/taqiyya-vs-our-president-david-meir-levi>.

This is how his modus operandi is described by one writer:

<<Many Western conservatives focus exclusively on the rhetoric and teachings of radical Muslims. Additionally, they conflate them with the works of secular Arab intellectuals. Writing in the conservative magazine Front Page, Jewish educator David Meir-Levi illustrates this tendency. “To answer the question: ‘Why do they hate us?’ we need look no further than at the Islamofascist leaders worldwide who are confronted with our success, threatened by our freedom, humiliated to the point of fury and violence due to their culture’s emphasis upon shame vs. honor. Rather than learn from us or work with us, they seek to destroy us... In addition, they are buttressed by Arab and pro-Arab intellectuals and professors in the West who re-write history in order to make us believe that this hatred is new and is a function of the fictional crimes of which we are accused.”

Thus, conservatives merge three things: the teachings of radical Muslims, the posturing of Middle-Eastern leaders, and the pontification of Arab intellectuals. The result is equivalent to claiming that George Bush speaks for all Christians.>>

Source: Bob Burnett, Islamophobia, Huffington Post: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-burnett/islamophobia_b_21339.html

Returning to my previous point if you are to say that Islamic teachings support something you need to provide evidence of Islamic teachings and not interpretations of ideologues (Muslim or non-Muslim).

In particular, when are quoting verses from the Qur'an you need to go to the traditional Tafsir (interpretation of the ulema) for an idea of the teachings that stem from the quoted verses. Otherwise, you are off topic.
Posted by grateful, Thursday, 22 December 2016 3:15:56 PM
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grateful: Jayb, there are 2 reasons why you would fail to fess up to the authorship of your post, http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=18693#333745.

I'm at a complete loss as to understand what you mean by Authorship. It must be some difference in your understanding of English. I thought the Site Quran.com would be good enough in regards to 2:225 etc, etc,.

Yes the TAQIYYA VS. OUR PRESIDENT is Levi. but what he says is true never-the-less. You seemed to understand the Authorship of that site with no trouble.

grateful: the Islamofascist leaders worldwide who are confronted with our success.

What success. If you mean the Islamic invasion of the West, you may be right for the time being. Chance is on the way though & mass deportations are on the cards. As far as Scientific success there is none. The Mullars haven't proved that the World is flat, Just because it interpreted as so in the koran. Even you believe the World is flat.

grateful: conservatives merge three things:

You say the Conservative mullars don't speak for Islam & ISIS & the other multitude of Rebels don't speak for Islam. The various Sunnies don't, the various Shite sects don't. The Alawati, Bahi, etc, etc don't.

Who speaks for authority in Islam. No One Person. All the Intellectual Mullars (in knowledge of the koran only) all quote what I have posted. They appear to with speak with authority. They are all full of Infidelophobia.

It's an old trick. A Christian Pastor commits a crime. Oh, he's not a Christian, he was before he got caught. The same with the spokes people for Islam. One runs a truck through a Christmas crown, Oh, he's not a moslems. He was before. All Bulldust!

grateful: if you are to say that Islamic teachings support something you need to provide evidence of Islamic teachings and not interpretations of ideologues (Muslim or non-Muslim).

See what I mean.
Posted by Jayb, Thursday, 22 December 2016 6:36:52 PM
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“Om?”

“What?”

“The captain just said something odd. He said the world is flat and has an edge.”

“Yes? So what?”

"But, I mean, we know the world is a ball, because . . .

The tortoise blinked.

“No, it's not,” he said. “Who said it's a ball?”

“You did,” said Brutha. Then he added: “According to Book One of the Septateuch, anyway.”

I've never thought like this before, he thought. I'd never have said “anyway.”

“Why'd the captain tell me something like that?” he said. “It's not normal conversation.”

“I told you, I never made the world,” said Om. “Why should I make the world? It was here already. And if I did make a world, I wouldn't make it a ball. People'd fall off. All the sea'd run off the bottom.”

“Not if you told it to stay on.”

“Hah! Will you hark at the man!”

“Besides, the sphere is a perfect shape,” said Brutha. "Because in the Book of-

“Nothing amazing about a sphere,” said the tortoise. “Come to that, a turtle is a perfect shape.”

“A perfect shape for what?”

“Well, the perfect shape for a turtle, to start with,” said Om. “If it was shaped like a ball, it'd be bobbing to the surface the whole time.”

“But it's a heresy to say the world is flat,” said Brutha.

“Maybe, but it's true.”

“And it's really on the back of a giant turtle?”

“That's right.”

“In that case,” said Brutha triumphantly, “what does the turtle stand on?”

The tortoise gave him a blank stare.

“It doesn't stand on anything,” it said. “It's a turtle, for heaven's sake. It swims. That's what turtles are for.”

- Small Gods, Terry Pratchett
Posted by Toni Lavis, Thursday, 22 December 2016 7:17:50 PM
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Grateful said : if you are to say that Islamic teachings support something you need to provide evidence of Islamic teachings and not interpretations of ideologues (Muslim or non-Muslim).

Notice he referred to Muslim and non-Muslim ideologues who fail to support their interpretations with tasfir of ulema. He is not denying there are Muslim ideologues (like ISIS) just as there are non-Muslim ideologues (like yourself). So it is false to say:

<<It's an old trick. A Christian Pastor commits a crime. Oh, he's not a Christian, he was before he got caught. The same with the spokes people for Islam. One runs a truck through a Christmas crown, Oh, he's not a moslems. He was before. All Bulldust!>>

ISIS are Muslims. ISIS are the ones who declare any Muslim who disagrees with them as out of Islam and so in their view ripe for slaughter.

So now your dishonest behaviour extends to erroneous claims about what I said: your words reak of bulldust!

What I said goes: if you are to say that Islamic teachings support something you need to provide evidence of Islamic teachings and not interpretations of ideologues (Muslim or non-Muslim).

Just saying "what he says is true never-the-less" doesn't cut it.
Posted by grateful, Thursday, 22 December 2016 9:51:30 PM
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Toni Lavis I can dig it.
Posted by Abraham Lewik, Friday, 23 December 2016 9:45:07 AM
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JayB,

Thanks for your prompt response. It seems we agree about some aspects of multi-culturalism, though a full agreement would appear to elude us. Surely there are other things we agree on. Now the bones of contention. THE WALL OF TEXT BEGINS! ! !

Mr. Putin is inconsistent, I accuse him of seeking power above & beyond any code (I could continue on about the evolution and application of the multi-cultural code, but simply want to mention and promote a code rather than solely criticise) Khadyrov & Chechnya are supported by him and his government, despite that person & place have bad Islam. The link to oDR asserts that women's groups there do not use the word "women's" because it is likely to induce attacks by Islammic bigots. There is a lot more to that situation.

"Christianity hasn't acted on those passages for about 300 years. Christians don't thake (sic) the Bible as literal. Moslems take their Koran as literal & take every opportunity to act on it, therefore it should be banned in Australia under 18c."

This is a lie, either from ignorance or intent. Heard about creationism? That is literal interpretation which spits in the face of the best explanation with the best predicitive power. Further, ignorance is no protection from anything, be it bad Islam or a bad heart or an angry hippopotamus.

You clearly did not Google Joan Vollmer. She died because people literally interpreted daemonic possession, an interpretation shared by Catholicism (although I cannot help but believe the Catholic exorcist rites would have a non-lethal conclusion.).

"“Christianity in Africa is under attack by Gays and Christians in Europe and the Americas,” he said. “Africans do not need Europeans to teach them what the Gospels say … The vice of homosexuality through the necessary laws [DEATH PENALTY, my words] in place can be checked.”"

https://www.onfaith.co/onfaith/2009/12/07/ugandas-anti-gay-law-rile-us/5083
More bad Christianity from a literal interpretation of Sodom & Gomorrah.
Posted by Abraham Lewik, Friday, 23 December 2016 10:10:29 AM
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So I would ask you to go out and find a Muslim (or a pretty [or ugly] Muslimah) in the flesh & blood. Not some nebulous, virtual presence. Ask them about the Buraq. If the Muslimah are like those I have met, they will answer you despite your insistence on a Wahhabi-style Islam being the only true, the only applied interpretation. I don't any of them will know what the Buraq is, and those who do, will treat it like Rudolph.

Syria and Iraq were secular, under the Ba'ath party. Now there is a lot of blood on the hands of the Ba'ath party, no bath is going to wash it off. Ha ha, I joke, I joke. Afghanistan was included because I was rolling on a rhyme scheme and I regret that got in the way of a clear argument. Basically this, imagine a Middle Easterner (Arab, Parsi whatever) who is too busy for reading. They might learn that the failed governments of Syria and Iraq were secular and the governments of Saudi Arabia and Iran are not. So they may assume there is something constructive and helpful about religious government. I would vehemently disagree because the multi-cultural code, of the separation of powers.

You say:
"Where are the Secular nations in this lot. There are none. Apart from Saudi Arabia which is one of the worst Human Rights Violators on the Planet."
This is a lie, either from ignorance or intent and I simply do not care which. They have religious police there.

Me: Simples. *saidlikemeerkat*
Posted by Abraham Lewik, Friday, 23 December 2016 10:10:42 AM
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Grateful: if you are to say that Islamic teachings support something you need to provide evidence of Islamic teachings
Grateful: you need to provide evidence of Islamic teachings and not interpretations of ideologues

Well I give up. What more can you want than Esteemed Middle Eastern mullars reciting the Koran on Utube. Calling for the destruction of Kaffirs. Saying it’s OK to have sex with your goat. Stoning women to death because a husbands friend screwed her. I suppose it would be a good way to get rid of your wife, get your neighbour to screw her. She gets stoned to death & he gets to pay retribution to the husband & they’re both happy.
By the way you never replied about how happy you would be with you husband screwing you neighbours Slave Girl. I take it by your lack of reply that you wouldn’t mind. Do you get to watch?

Grateful: ISIS are Muslims. ISIS are the ones who declare any Muslim who disagrees with them as out of Islam and so in their view ripe for slaughter.

& Sunnies & Shite, etc, etc.

AL: Joan Vollmer. died because people literally interpreted daemonic possession,
AL: "“Christianity in Africa is under attack by Gays and Christians in Europe and the Americas,”

Idiots. There are some areas of the Christian World, especially in Europe, that are still living in the 13th Century & some Christian Fundamentalists in America that are totally Bonkers, but that has more to do with the Deep South of America, definitely weird.

AL: he said. “Africans do not need Europeans to teach them what the Gospels say

Most of Africa is still Tribal in Essence. Any excuse to kill a rival Clan or Tribe regardless of the Religious affiliation.

It’s not wholesale slaughter or the wanting to murder anyone who is not Islamic by the entire Stupid Religion of Islam. Then there are stupid individual Christian fundamentalists who believe that the World is only 6000 years old.

I see they arrested 7 moslems going to blow up Christmas in Melbourne. How do you feel about that?
Posted by Jayb, Friday, 23 December 2016 7:05:54 PM
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Jayb: What more can you want than Esteemed Middle Eastern mullars reciting the Koran on Utube. Calling for the destruction of Kaffirs.

Honesty.

You know this is not evidence. Anyone can recite verses on the Utube and add their interpretation which is why i don't bother watching them.

I will take you seriously when you demonstrate serious study. This requires serious reading referring to the ulema who are the source of the traditional teachings of Islam.

The Tafsir I have used in previous posts to refute some of your claims has been by one of the most eminent scholars of the 20 Century, Mufti Muhammad Shafi Usmani. These were originally broadcast in Urdu to a Pakistani radio audience in the 1960s (maybe 1970s). So they represent Islamic teachings.

You can find his commentary here:  http://www.maarifulquran.net/index.php/maarifulquran-english-pdf

If you can come back to me with commentary that support your interpretations then I'll take you seriously.

In Islam there is a crisis of authority and the first victims are those youth who are being brainwashed by wahabbi doctrines which have no place in traditional Islamic teachings.

In fact, what you are witnessing today is the result of 2 centuries of attacks on the authority and influence of the ulema (Islamic scholars) by authoritarian rulers in the MENA region because the ulema have traditionally been the ones to whom Muslims have turned when faced with injustices of tyrants (see references to Bulliet in a previous post). The vacuum of ignorance has been filled by the likes of Al Qaeda and ISIS.

To support this case I'll give you an example of a REAL jihad base on the work of John Kiser, author of Commander of the Faithful, The Life and Times of Emir Abd el-Kader A Story of True Jihad http://www.truejihad.com/pages/true-jihad.php.

continue..
Posted by grateful, Friday, 23 December 2016 9:03:06 PM
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Continue..

Kiser writes:

<<It would be profitable to dwell at some length at one of the most important figures of recent history, the Emir Abd el-Kader, leader of the Algerian Muslims in their heroic resistance to French colonial aggression between 1830 and 1847. For his conduct is a perfect exemplification of the principle enshrined in this verse, and, in general, he stands forth as a powerful antidote to many of the most insidious poisons afflicting the body politic of the Muslim world in our times. For his response to a truly despicable enemy‚ if ever there were one‚ was never tainted with the hint of injustice; on the contrary, his impeccable conduct in the face of treachery, deceit, and unspeakable cruelty put his civilized adversaries to shame. His enemy, the French, who initiated imperialistic aggression against the Muslims of Algeria, were guilty of the most horrific crimes in their ‚mission civilisatrice,‚ crimes that were in fact acknowledged as such by the architects of this mission, but justified by them on account of the absolute necessity of imparting civilization to the Arabs. This was an end which justified any means, even, ironically, the most savage.

Bopichon, author of two books on Algeria in the 1840s, states the underlying ethos of the French colonial enterprise as follows: Little does it matter that France in her political conduct goes beyond the limits of common morality at times; the essential thing is that she establish a lasting colony, and that as a consequence, she will bring European civilization to these barbarous countries; when a project which is to the advantage of all humanity is to be carried out, the shortest path is the best. Now, it is certain that the shortest path is terror. Terrorism well describes the policy carried out by the French. >>

Continue
Posted by grateful, Friday, 23 December 2016 9:05:05 PM
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Continue….

<<Testimonies abound as to the atrocities perpetrated by French forces. Bopichon, author of two books on Algeria in the 1840s, states the underlying ethos of the French colonial enterprise as follows: Little does it matter that France in her political conduct goes beyond the limits of common morality at times; the essential thing is that she establish a lasting colony, and that as a consequence, she will bring European civilization to these barbarous countries; when a project which is to the advantage of all humanity is to be carried out, the shortest path is the best. Now, it is certain that the shortest path is terror. Terrorism well describes the policy carried out by the French. Testimonies abound as to the atrocities perpetrated by French forces.

An evidently remorseful, if not traumatized, Count de Herisson recounts in his book La chasse a l’homme (Hunting the man) that “We would bring back a barrel full of ears harvested, pair by pair, from prisoners, friends or foes,” inflicting on them “unbelievable cruelties.” The ears of Arabs were worth ten francs a pair and their women remained a perfect prey. Official French reports eventually registered with shame these monstrous acts. A Government Inquiry Commission report of 1883 frankly admitted: “We massacred people carrying [French] passes, on a suspicion we slit the throats of entire populations who were later on proven to be innocent; we tried men famous for their holiness in the land, venerated men, because they had enough courage to come and meet our rage in order to intercede on behalf of their unfortunate fellow countrymen.” >>

Continue
Posted by grateful, Friday, 23 December 2016 9:05:53 PM
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Continue..

<<How did the Emir respond to such unbridled savagery? Not with bitter vengefulness and enraged fury but with dispassionate propriety and principled warfare. At a time when the French were mutilating Arab prisoners, wiping out whole tribes, burning men, women, and children alive; and when severed Arab heads were regarded as trophies of war‚ the Emir manifested his magnanimity, his unflinching adherence to Islamic principle, and his refusal to stoop to the level of his “civilized” adversaries by issuing the following edict: Every Arab who captures alive a French soldier will receive as reward eight douros. “Every Arab who has in his possession a Frenchman is bound to treat him well and to conduct him to either the Khalifa [Caliph] or the Emir himself, as soon as possible. In cases where the prisoner complains of ill treatment, the Arab will have no right to any reward.“ When asked what the reward was for a severed French head, the Emir replied, twenty-five blows of the baton on the soles of the feet. >>

So returning to your "Esteemed Middle Eastern mullars reciting the Koran on Utube calling for the destruction of Kaffir". What are their names? What makes them "esteemed"?

So why do you want to insist your "esteemed Middle Eastern mullars" (who you cannot even name!) represent the teachings of Islam when there is so much evidence to the contrary?

How do you account for the "men famous for their holiness in the land, venerated men" who were tried "because they had enough courage to come and meet our rage in order to intercede on behalf of their unfortunate fellow countrymen."? Are you saying they were not following the teachings of Islam?

continue
Posted by grateful, Friday, 23 December 2016 10:32:03 PM
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JayB,

Attempted bombing in Melbourne was horrible. The assassination of the Russian diplomat was horrible. I'm not burying my head in the sand, Islam was one of the causes of the Sydney siege, the Sultan of Brunei banned Christmas and so on. It fits into a hierarchy of problems. How many gangland killings or DV or rape happened here without Islam? How many people die overseas by diarrhea each year?

I fully accept Muslims deserve certain police scrutiny; interaction with radicals or online activity and such like. Realistically crimes will come from that community that won't come from elsewhere. Too much fervour and the Dr. Haneef case will be repeated.

Leviticus 20:13 is crystal clear. How is the Ugandan legislative effort to kill homosexual men & women about taking power from the gay & lesbian tribe? I would agree a certain culture is required for it to supercede common decency, a culture which is irreconcilable with multi-culturalism. That strand of culture must be ended the same as the Hindi practice of sati has already been.

Why did you post Saudi Arabia is secular?

I reckon you have fixated blame on Islam. You see reality as there to support your attitude, not to test how good your explanation was, terribly unscientific. Analogies abound, but I will rise above Godwin's Law.
Posted by Abraham Lewik, Saturday, 24 December 2016 8:16:28 AM
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Grateful, the problem with your argument is that what you yourself believe about your religion may be OK, but the demonstrated fact, confirmed by events in Melbourne in recent days, is that there are also men who also profess to belong to the Muslim faith, who take a contrary point of view. Now, one might ask, from whence does that point of view have its source. Also, one might also ask, what are the mullars in Australia doing to dispel these ideas. Those of us outside your faith need to have some public assurances and we do not seem to be getting them.

Can you give us some assurance. We need more than quotations from your Holy book.

Have a Merry Christmas.

David
Posted by VK3AUU, Saturday, 24 December 2016 10:46:03 AM
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grateful:At a time when the French were mutilating Arab prisoners,

No doubt that the French were bad masters, but let's look at the Hierarchy of bad Colonial Masters. Starting with the Worst to the least worst; Belgian, Dutch, German, French... English. It was the times they lived in, last Century & beyond. The Upper Class even treated their own people with distain. At least they had eliminated Slavery... Which Islamic Countries have yet to do. I make no excuses for what happened 150 years ago.

grateful: What are their names? What makes them "esteemed"?

Well they are the Grand Mufti's of Saudi Arabia, Iran & various other Islamic Countries who are held up to the world as the foremost Authority on Islam. I have given you their names quite a few times & you purposely ignore them.

Khomeini brought Iran under the Islamic Lash leading the race for the most esteemed. Have you read his book yet, very interesting. " Khomeini's book "Tahrir- al-Vasyleh".
Surah Yasin (Yaseen) Surah Ar-Rahman Surah Al Mulk |Ayat Al-Kursi from the Noble Quran Site. "Quran.com"

grateful:
Three verses from the Quar'an: (Quran.com) Your site.

“O you who believe! Fear God, and be with those who are true (in word and deeds).” (Quran 9:119) or
"And, do not cloak (and confuse) the truth with falsehood. Do not suppress the truth knowingly. (The Noble Quran, 2:42)"
"A woman may be likened to a sheep, a Cow or a Camel... for all are to be ridden." Salih Muslim, Quran 4:1039.

These are quotes you gave me. I quote that particular site & you tell me it's not good enough. I got the Site from you. Thank you.

AL: Why did you post Saudi Arabia is secular?
My apologies.

the failed governments of Syria and Iraq were secular and the governments of Saudi Arabia and Iran are not
Posted by Jayb, Saturday, 24 December 2016 11:25:14 AM
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Grateful,

I assert the Qurannic Challenge has been met and the Islamic faith is false upon it's own foundation. My position is as follows.

The original bhudda, an unlettered man, created an equivalent social movement.

Mr. Duetsch's book, The Beginning of Infinity, is of greater value scientifically as well as better in terms of social dogma.

The entire discography of the Golden Era record label, particularly the Hilltop Hoods, is again superior, morally as well as rhythmically.

I eagerly await your response and wish ask the commenters (except the bastards) a joyous Christmas.
Posted by Abraham Lewik, Saturday, 24 December 2016 6:59:42 PM
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Weeeeeeee! AL, what ever it is it must be good stuff. Merry Christmas. Don't drive.

Grateful you haven't got back to me on weather or not you mind your husband screwing his mates Slave Girl. Seems to be allowed by Sharia Law. Merry Christmas luv. XXXOOOXXX
Posted by Jayb, Saturday, 24 December 2016 8:31:55 PM
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Jayb,

I'm not interested in the interpretations of ideologues, murderers or misogynists. I'm interested in the traditional teachings of Islam.

Your plagiarised posts included the following:

<<The Qur’an (Sura 2:225, 3:28, 3:54, 9:3, 16:106, 40:28, and 66:2) establishes the religious legitimacy of breaking oaths, lying, unilaterally violating treaties, and generally scheming against non-Muslims. Allah Himself is described as “the best of schemers” (3:54, 8:30, 10:21), and Muhammad declared, as a justification for murdering unarmed prisoners after offering them safe passage, “war is deceit” (see the Hadith collection of Bukhari, vol. 4, book 52, nos. 268-271).

The Qur’an and later sources command the obedient Muslim to be engaged in eternal war, jihad, with the non-Muslim world until the supremacy of Islam over the entire world is complete. More than 120 times ((2:193, 4:89-90, 8:12, 8:39, 9:5, 9:11, 9:25, 9:29, 9:39, inter alia; and see here for detailed discussion) the Qur’an calls Muslims to jihad until Islam is the only or dominant religion in the world.>>

Now offer me Tafsir that supports these conclusions.

As I've said you will find a Tafsir from Mufti Muhammad Shafi Usmani one of the most eminent scholars of the 20th Century. These were originally broadcast in Urdu to a Pakistani radio audience in the 1960s (maybe 1970s). So they represent Islamic teachings. they come from Vol. 1 of Maariful Quran, pp482-485; (or PDF pages: pp498-501) which can be downloaded from http://www.maarifulquran.net/index.php/maarifulquran-english-pdf
Posted by grateful, Monday, 26 December 2016 8:10:03 AM
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David:
<<Grateful, the problem with your argument is that what you yourself believe about your religion may be OK, but the demonstrated fact, confirmed by events in Melbourne in recent days, is that there are also men who also profess to belong to the Muslim faith, who take a contrary point of view. Now, one might ask, from whence does that point of view have its source. Also, one might also ask, what are the mullars in Australia doing to dispel these ideas. Those of us outside your faith need to have some public assurances and we do not seem to be getting them.>>

The key question you pose is "whence does that point of view have its source?"

That's the question I'm trying to answer for myself. Their behaviour is not consistent with traditional Islamic teachings.

The example of Amir Abdulkader is in stark contrast with the behaviour of those who allegedly were plotting violence on xmas day....as is their knowledge of Islam.

At this stage, I believe the answer can be found in the loss of voice and influence of the ulema during the colonial era and under the tyrants of the 20th century. When Muslims turned to Islam (as they have done in the past) for justice they found a host of doctrines which did not have their source in traditional Islam.

Merry Christmas
Posted by grateful, Monday, 26 December 2016 8:28:46 AM
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AL: I haven't read Mr. Duetsch's book, The Beginning of Infinity, so i cann't really comment

AL: "The entire discography of the Golden Era record label, particularly the Hilltop Hoods, is again superior, morally as well as rhythmically. "

I mainly listen, and attempt to sing, Islamic poems (eg. http://www.islamicedfoundation.com/material.htm). Different genre to Hilltop Hoods:

Allah

I tried to find Him on the Christian cross, but He
was not there; I went to the Temple of the
Hindus and to the old pagodas, but I could not
find a trace of Him anywhere.

I searched on the mountains and in the valleys
but neither in the heights nor in the depths was I
able to find Him. I went to the Ka'bah in Mecca,
but He was not there either.

I questioned the scholars and philosophers but
He was beyond their understanding.

I then looked into my heart and it was there
where He dwelled that I saw Him; He was
nowhere else to be found. (Rumi)

Merry Christmas to you as well.
Posted by grateful, Monday, 26 December 2016 8:52:12 AM
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AL, have you heard of Redgum?

One of my favourites: "I was only 19": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Urtiyp-G6jY

I used follow them and attended several live appearances usually at some country event or outer suburban oval.
Posted by grateful, Monday, 26 December 2016 9:06:35 AM
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grateful: One of my favourites: "I was only 19": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Urtiyp-G6jY

Yes & I was there for the first time it was ever played in Public. The Welcome Home Parade in Sydney, 87.

A couple of things about the clip.

0.00 to 0.05 is 4 Section, 5 Platoon, B Coy, 1 R>A>R> emplaning Bien Hoa, at the Snake Pit. (Charlie Coy 1st Air Cav., Cobra's, Snoopy, Casper, Diamonds, Full Deck & a few others)
3.34 to 4.10 is a composite of 1 R.A.R. at Ben Cat 1, Ho Bo Woods & Silver City Operations. The Guy standing in the Tunnel is Bowtells. He died in a Tunnel later that day. In the original clip (missing from this one) on Silver City is Billy Coolabra (Aboriginal from Palm Island) sitting on a Tree Stump. That's my arm will see pulling him of the Stump & him grinning on the ground. We got ambushed cutting a hole in the Canopy to get the VC Rice, Flour, Salt & Peanuts out. We got hit again on the way back to our position but one of our guys hit a VC setting up a large Dish Claymore & it went off. The VC then took off.

The next night the VC hit that position from 10 at night until 5 next morning, but the Delta Coy, 2/503rd, Yanks, had taken over from us. Poor bastards. Two Congressional Medals of Honour were issued for that Fire Fight. I just glad it wasn't us
Posted by Jayb, Monday, 26 December 2016 10:10:31 AM
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Rumi's answer to questions asked by a disciple -
What is Poison?
He replied with a beautiful answer - Anything which is more than our necessity is Poison. It may be Power, Wealth, Hunger, Ego, Greed, Laziness, Love, Ambition, Hate or anything

What is fear.....?
Non acceptance of uncertainty.
If we accept that uncertainty, it becomes adventure...!

What is envy ?
Non acceptance of good in others
If we accept that good, it becomes inspiration...!

What is Anger?
Non acceptance of things which are beyond our control.
If we accept, it becomes tolerance...!

What is hatred?
Non acceptance of person as he is.
If we accept person unconditionally, it becomes love...!
Posted by grateful, Friday, 6 January 2017 3:51:53 PM
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What is fear.....?
Non acceptance of uncertainty. If we accept that uncertainty, it becomes adventure...!

It's wise to know what to fear.

What is envy ?
Non acceptance of good in others. If we accept that good, it becomes inspiration...!

Everybody has their good side but if the bad side out weighs the good, be fearful.

What is Anger?
Non acceptance of things which are beyond our control. If we accept, it becomes tolerance...!

It is not good to tolerate bad things. Like Islam.

What is hatred?
Non acceptance of person as he is. If we accept person unconditionally, it becomes love...!

You can't accept any person whose sole aim is to; Convert, Demand payment to live or kill you. Hate is not involved.
Posted by Jayb, Friday, 6 January 2017 4:09:21 PM
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Grateful: the name of the person who is interpreting the Quran in this manner. What is this person's name?

This is a deflection.

Just about every Quote I have given you has had the name of the person translating it. You obviously only see what you want to see.

Grateful: As for quoting the words of convicted criminals and extremists to represent Islam that is a cheap stunt. We are discussing the teachings of Islam not of those who have gone against the traditional teachings.

They are moslems & they are taken very seriously by most moslems in the World including Australia.

Bazz: That of course means that Oaths swearing loyalty in Nationalisation ceremonies and in courts are meaningless.

Of course they are. It’s not OK to lie to a moslem but it is to a Kaffir. That is something you cannot deny, grateful. The Koran is quite specific on that.

UK & Sharia Law, not in Australia yet, but it’s being pushed a tiny bit at a time. Fences around swimming pools, separate days for men & women, Sharia Courts, no Christmas, Easter, Halal payments, anything that “might” offend a moslem is demanded to be stopped or it’s a declaration of War if it isn’t. It’s Australia. Assimilate & accept out Laws & Customs or leave. Scrimple really.

https://www.facebook.com/OfficialBritainFirst/videos/1212883368856922/

https://www.facebook.com/BIRMINGHAMCRUSADER/videos/1725240964460076/

It’s good to Rape White women.
http://freedomdaily.com/muslim-professor-refugees/

I guess you are pretending to be a Moderate moslem. Let me remind you of the Words of the esteemed P.M. of Turkey. “There are no moderate moslems. The term ‘moderate moslem’ is ugly & offensive. There is no moderate Islam, Islam is Islam.”
Posted by Jayb, Friday, 6 January 2017 4:09:39 PM
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Islamic Sciences, Proclamations & Fatwa’s just for you grateful.I’d be interested to know how you feel about them.

Women who drive cars suffer from ovarian problems & rolled up pelvises, giving rise to congenitally defective babies. Sheik Salah al-beholdran. Saudi Psychologist.

DNA testing should not be used as evidence in Rape Cases. Maulana Mohammad Khan Sherini. Head of the Council for Islamic Ideaology.

The Earth is rotating as they claim the Countries, the mountains, the Trees, the Rivers, & the Oceans will have no bottom & the people will see the Eastern Countries move to the West & the Western Countries move to the East. The World is Flat & everyone claiming it is round is an Athiest & is deserving to be punished. Shaik Abdul Aziz ibn Baaz. Supreme Authority of Islam in Saudi. “Walking Islam.”

Women who do not dress modestly lead men astray, corrupt their Morals & spread Adultry in Society. Hajatosalem Kajem Sedijhi, Iranian Islamic Scholar.

Saudi men can eat body parts of their wives if they are too hungry. Saudi Grand Mufti Abdul Aziz bin Abdullah.

women are meant to deliver children; they cannot be compared with men gender equality is un-Islamic. Kanthapuram Aboobacker Musalyar. Kerala, India, prominent Sunni Muslim leader.

Farzana Hassan, a progressive Canadian-Muslim leader. In our Muslim community, we’ve had enough comic fatwas to create our own Fatwa Ridiculist. Some of my nominees:

1. A man can work with a woman to whom he’s not a brother, father, uncle, or son, if he drinks her breast milk first.
2. A husband can divorce his wife with a text message, declaring: “I divorce you. I divorce you. I divorce you.”
3. Muslim girls can’t be tomboys.
4. Mickey Mouse is a corrupting influence and must die.
5. Emoticons are illegal.
6. You can’t wear a Manchester United soccer jersey.
7. A husband and wife can’t have sex naked.
8. Pokemon is as bad as Mickey Mouse.
9. Ditch the downward dog. Yoga is forbidden.
10. Girls above the age of 13 can’t ride bikes. (See fatwa No. 3.)

Child Mariages
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Unw2iM96A_4

Imagine
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKNnBaaBrME&feature=youtu.be
Posted by Jayb, Friday, 6 January 2017 4:14:21 PM
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