NC,

You honour me :)

Are you maintaining that, whatever may have been the practice many centuries - and even millennia - ago, is still the approved practice ?

Do you have any concept of change, of the painful and hard-fought 'evolution' of social practices and standards in many societies, since our barbaric-past days up to the present ? Perhaps even in yours - I live in hope :)

Joe

NC

Do you think your dishonesty and stupidity is not obvious to even a casual onlooker?

Your flimsy attempt to confuse "A" with "not-A", my opinion with SOMEONE ELSES - you idiot - only exemplifies that you are operating at the mental and moral level of an infant.

Because you obviously don't know or don't care what an intellectually honest discussion would look like, IT WOULD LOOK LIKE THIS:

JKJ: "Do you think it's okay for a 54-year old man to have sex with a 9-year old girl?"

NC: "YES I DO, for five reasons:
1. I make no distinction between my own moral opinion, and the moral opinion of other people in a former age
2. Mohammed did it, and I think he is the supreme example of moral goodness, therefore I approve of rape, murder, slavery and phucking children BECAUSE MOHAMMED DID IT AND I THINK HE'S WONDERFUL
3. I have no content to my moral opinion other than to ask, like a moral imbecile, if other people are doing something,
4. I am too embarrassed in contemporary Australia to admit what a moral turd I am, and so I try to squirm out of admitting it by pretending that some other question has priority every time I am asked; this childish evasion satisfies my kindergarten-level intellectual standards, and
5. I have no argument but only snivelling dishonesty, misrepresentation, mind-reading, and PRETENDING that I'm not being thrashed when any child can see that I am."

Thank you for demonstrating why the Muslim world is so intellectually and morally backward. You think having sex with little children is good, are too dishonest to admit it, and try to defend it by confusing the difference between what YOUR moral opinion is, and what the moral opinion of OTHER PEOPLE is

Hi JKJ,

In 'traditional' societies, - tribal, pre-civilized, primitive, whatever term one likes to use - there were and are many practices which people in modern societies, with long histories of hard struggle for the expansion of human rights, including the rights of children and women, would agree were and are abhorrent.

In tribal societies, female children are tradeable goods, used to strengthen links between clans, the property in patriarchal groups of their fathers, then of their husbands (probably an anthropologist would quibble that really they were transferred from the property of their clan to that of their husband). As children, they had no rights. As women, they had no rights, only duties - not to disgrace their clan, and not to disappoint their husbands.

Such barbaric practices are long gone in civilized societies. To believe that, if such practices were okay in one society, then they are okay in all societies, shows a backward mentality and inability to understand - or even approve of - the slow and painful evolution of the rights of women and children in societies over especially the past thousand years.

That anybody should actually defend and champion such barbaric practices today demonstrates an infantile mind-set. For such notions to be purveyed as 'religious principles', and therefore sacrosanct, is contemptible, and should have no place in modern societies. They belong in the dust-bin of history.

Joe

AISHA’S AGE when she was MARRIED TO MUHAMMAD (Saw) [1 of 3]

JKJ is the person, I should address this message to.

But JKJ’s post of the 2 Feb 9:57 PM shows that the ‘small mind’ has now totally been taken over by the ‘foul mouth’ this person had shown previously as well.

Does not answer my questions.
One step further: now answers his own slanderous questions on my behalf.

For the other readers, I provide the following historic information for them to make up their minds on the issue in discussion.

BASIC FACT 1: Aisha’s age of 9 years when she was married to Muhammad (Saw) is reported by ONE source ONLY against a host of sources reporting that age from 14 to 19 years.

BASIC FACT 2: Marrying a 9 year old girl was not an Arab practice even in the period in question.

BASIC FACY 3: There should have been a surprise, dislike or protest recorded in that time if Aisha was 9 years old. A complete absence of any of this conclusively shows that she was much older than the reported 9 years of age at the time of he marriage.

ON THE ONLY SOURCE [Bukhari (d 870 ad)]

• The age of 9 years was reported on narration of one person (Hisham ibn urwah) ONLY. He is one of the hundreds of people recorded as narrators of Hadith;

• Hisham lived in Madina first 71 year of his life, and NO ONE from Medina narrates the age of 9 years to Bukhari or a number of other Hadith collectors. Hisham experienced memory problems in his old age, and has been widely observed to have reported incidents inconsistent with historical facts when he was in Iraq. Scholars have warned against his narrations during his old age.
Continued …

AISHA’S AGE when she was MARRIED TO MUHAMMAD (Saw) [2 of 3]
ON SOME OF THE OTHER SOURCES

1. Aisha was engaged to son of Mutam about 9 years before her marriage to Muhammad (Saw), according to Tabri (historian – d923) – Mutam refused for Aisha to live in his house because Aisha had accepted Islam (Aisha’s father requested this as he wanted to migrate to Habsha to avoid persecution in Mecca). This suggests that she was about 19 years old at the time of marriage.

2. According to most historians the older sister of Aisah (Asma) was 10 years older than her. It is an established fact that Asma was 28 years old at the time of hijra (1 or 2 years before Aisha’s marriage). This suggests her age of about 19 when married.

3. Tabri also reports that all four children of Abu Bakr (Aisha included) were borne in pre-Islamic period. This suggests Aisha’s age at the time of marriage to be 14 years or more.

4. Ibn Hisham – the historian (d833 ad) reports that Aisha accepted Islam before Umar ibn Khattab. This also suggests her age to be 14 years or more when she got married.

5. Ahmad Bin Hanbal (d 855) reports that the lady (Khaulah) used the Arabic word “bikr” for Aisha, when she suggested Muhammad (Saw) to remarry after the death of his wife. The word ‘bikr’is used for an unmarried lady as opposed to the word “jariyah” which should have used for a young 9 year old girl, if that was Aish’s age then.

6. According to Ibn Hajar (d1449) Fatima was 5 years older than Aisha. This suggests Aisha’s age of 14 years or more at the time of marriage.

There are other references confirming the above and NONE supports the age of 9 years as reported by the single narration by Hisham ibn Urwah.

Continued ….

AISHA’S AGE when she was MARRIED TO MUHAMMAD (Saw) [3 of 3]

This post was time barred earlier, had to wait.

JKJ does not have access to correct historical records except some hate sites which suit his favourite slanders.

The consensus of scholars suggests that Aisha’s age when she married Muhammad was more than 14 years and most likely in the range of 19 years.

Even an age of 14 years for a girl should not be unusual for marriage, considering practice all over the world, even if JKJ makes no allowance for change in customs over centuries so obvious to sane minds as I have been pointing out to him in last few posts.

Relatively recently, the legal age of consent for marriage in Massachusetts (in 1854) was 14 for males and 12 for females.

And in today’s world, in Massachusetts an age of 14 years for male and 12 years of female is possible with parental and judicial consent.

Aisha’s age will continue to be an issue with Islamophobes like JKJ. This person can hardly be engaged in a rational exchange.

JKJ’s last post (2 Feb 9:57) is nothing but tirade of swearing, name-calling and vulgar language; and totally devoid of a remotely sensible treatment of historical facts, which of course, is the objective of any sensible discussion.

The mental state of this person has been devastated by the outright hatred he carries deep inside him as is all too obvious NOW.

There is no substance in his current post, hence my response on correcting his misinformation on Aisha’s age is complete.

But I do intend to post the correct facts on the Islamophobe misinformation that this person peddles. And his vulgar language, I will leave it for readers to decide how far it is effective as an argument for his case!