Cherful:

“Yes, we have intelligence to override our basic instincts and
we can be socialised to have empathy”

Our basic instincts are not overridden by intelligence they are held in proper tension by our natural urge to treat people with respect. If we hurt someone we feel guilty. It is a feeling just as powerful as any sexual urge. It is a fundamental part of our human nature. Every man who rapes a woman feels deep guilt whether they acknowledge it or not. They most often suppress that guilt but many rapists do acknowledge that what they have done is very wrong.

It is extremely simplistic to suggest that men are just animals totally incapable of feeling guilt when they have done wrong. They are not ‘socialised to have empathy’ they are born with the same fundamental feelings that every human being is born with. You don’t need to be socialised to feel fear or anger or guilt – they are the most basic and powerful parts of our nature that aid us in caring for ourselves and our fellow human beings.

“Not to mention the billion dollar brothel industry.”

Are you suggesting that the brothel industry is a bad thing? Isn’t simply a business deal? There would be no brothel industry if women, for whatever reason, did not comply.

Lillian/imho et al

Another seminal work on the historical development of the patriarchy is Riane Eisler's 'The Chalice and the Blade'. I can't recommend it highly enough.

What overrides her exhaustive analysis is the observation (one that I share) that, given the gender chaos, injustice and misery that the patriarchy has caused humanity over the last few millennia, it's an extraordinary testament to the human spirit that women and men have been able maintain their bonds of affection at all.

imho 'I have to agree ... that the chances of dismantling patriarchy are indeed slim'

I believe that too. However, this does not affect my feminism. I see feminism more as a tool for analysing the distribution of power across the genders. If such an analysis changes society by making women more equal to men, all the better. But full equality is unlikely to ever happen.

Feminism and feminist theory is something that I use every day of my life to help me negotiate the patriarchal system I live under. Feminism's greatest benefit for a woman is not so much the hope of one day achieving equal value to men, but the realisation that it's the system that's crazy, not her. And that it's the system that drives much of men's violence and other negative behaviours, not something innate to men.

Killarney:
"I see feminism more as a tool for analysing the distribution of power across the genders. If such an analysis changes society by making women more equal to men, all the better. But full equality is unlikely to ever happen. Feminism and feminist theory is something that I use every day of my life to help me negotiate the patriarchal system I live under. Feminism's greatest benefit for a woman is not so much the hope of one day achieving equal value to men, but the realisation that it's the system that's crazy, not her. And that it's the system that drives much of men's violence and other negative behaviours, not something innate to men."

Well said; couldn't agree more. Besides, what choice do we have than to keep showing solidarity even while we are being treated by the noisy minority as the enemy? I only hope that the non-violent men, the majority, finds the courage to stand with us rather than stay silent.

imho

Agreed. But non-violent men also have to wake up to their complicity in maintaining a global system of violence – in their attraction to violent entertainment and sports, their glorification of war, their willingness to favour competition over cooperation, their consumption of pornography, their acceptance of misogynistic values, and their general resistance to relinquishing power to women.

Admittedly, women who grow up under a patriarchy support many of these dysfunctional values and behaviours as well. Both genders are on a learning curve.

<And that it's the system that drives much of men's violence and other negative behaviours,
< not something innate to men.
Posted by Killarney, Sunday, 26 October 2014 9:56:42 PM

So which gender gets to decide what the negative behaviours of men are?

Which gender gets to decide what is acceptable or not acceptable behaviour on the part of men?

Substance abuse affects males more than females.
http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/menshealth/facts/addiction.htm

Substance abuse is extremely strongly associated with violence.
http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/substance-use-disorder/link-between-substance-abuse-violence-and-suicide

Males make up a larger number of the prison population and in particular in Australia the prisons have become the defacto mental health institutions, added to that, around 60% of the male prison population shows signs of having had an acquired brain injury.

If we excluded from the violence figures, men who are violent when under the influence and men who are suffering a mental illness at the time. The figures would be reduced dramatically.

If we also excluded the males who have an acquired brain injury this figure would be further reduced.

We will be left with the socio and psychopaths. and there is no cure for them.

What a lot to discuss! Firstly to Jay of Melbourne. You cannot dismiss 300 years of witch burnings and the massive economic, political and social restructuring of society by saying an author is a marxist and so to be ignored.

Also making racist statements about the violence of men is correlated to the amount of melatonin in their skin is contemptable. What makes people violent is the culture they are in. For example the Nazis were all white men and managed a lot of death, as did the communists. The slaughter of the Native American population from 19million before the 'white man' arrived to 280,000 is an impressive genocide.

Culture changes over time and the colonialism of the West has made huge changes. When the Portuguese arrived in Senegal there were huge trading empires run by women. The Europeans were considered smelly and backward as they did not bathe twice a day. Never mind the colonial superiority in arms soon got rid of this type of society and replaced it with colonial repression.

I won't go into all the cultural changes around the world but think it worth mentioning that the European colonial empire has been going on for 500 years and has massively changed many many cultures and so to assume all were violent and sexist before is wrong. I'm not saying they were perfect but there was a variety of cultures. Have a read of Howard Zinn's "People's history of America" to read about an idyllic people on the island of Hispanola (now Haiti and Dominican Republic). It was a really fantastic place of plenty. Then Christopher Columbus arrived, enslaved the population to work the mines. They died of illness, torture and misery and refused to have kids. I think you would probably classify Chris C. as a white man.

Then you may have spotted there has been a long and intense campaign by some women and some men to make life fairer, especially for women. TBC