Dear Dan,

Please excuse me for delaying my response. I find it difficult to answer you without risking shaking your faith:

You have your faith and I have mine. I think it is beautiful that there are so many different ways to approach God, that you believe what you believe even if I believe differently. What matters is not whether our beliefs match the facts of the physical world, but whether they purify us and make us fitter to live with God.

Evolution has nothing to do with life. Evolution only describes how the bodies that we currently borrow came to be. This is not life - this is biology. Darwin discovered what he discovered because he focused his attention on the objective world - and he did so because he considered this objective world important. Anyone devoting their attention on the physical would discover the same because the facts were lying there in fossils all the time. Attributing importance to this objective world and the facts therein, having faith in it rather than in God, is the main characteristic of the modern thinking - and there lies the problem, not in discovering this or the other factual detail.

Whatever the history of the world and of our bodies, we cannot change it. We can only control our own conduct, not the past - and our conduct should indeed be based on faith, that this world is but a corridor leading to the kingdom of God, which is the deeper reality.

Yuyutsu,
You need not worry about saying anything to risk shaking my faith. As I said, my faith is based on the teaching of the apostles and prophets (i.e. the Bible). These have withstood all challenges for the last two thousand years, many more than we are able to mention here. (You really must underestimate me. I have been around the block. I've studied philosophy and theology at tertiary levels at various institutions. I've lived in three different continents. I've learned two other languages after learning my native English. There's not much people say on these religious forums which I haven't heard before.)

But I still ask the question, if you believe in the truth of Darwinian evolution, why are you accusing me of modernist thinking? It really seems the shoe is on the other foot.

And I hardly think Darwin was objective. He was human like you or me, with his own prejudices and preconceptions. You are wrong to say the fossils contain facts. The fossils are dead. They don't speak. Their history and meaning must be interpreted. You (with your modernist outlook, perhaps) interpret the fossils as speaking of evolution (decent from lower life forms). Other people see in the fossils evidence for stasis, that is, no evolution but variation around the common form or kind. There is no one objective interpretation.

some/have faith..in god CREATION
OTHER HAVE FAITH IN..'SCIENTISTS'..AND THE THEORY/OF\EVOLUTION..OF SPECIES WITHIN GENUS]..scIENCE IS A NOTHER LANGUAGE..you dont speak 'scIENCE'

DAN QUOte..<<.And I hardly think Darwin was objective. He was human like you or me, with his own prejudices and preconceptions.>>

DARWIN WAS VERY CLEAR IN HIS WORDS HE USED
HE WROTE EVOLUTION/OF\SPECIES...IE the natural VAIRIATION OD SPECIES WITHIN A GENUS[MICRO-EVOLUTION]

[NOT GENUS..[NEW LIFE][by macro/evolUTION[THE POINT BEING HE DIDNT CALL His book/evolution of genus from dust into man/via mutations out of genus into otHER GENUS

<<> You are wrong to say the fossils contain facts.>>

no they CONTAIN FACTS[BUT IN AN EXPANDING UNIVERSE;..IF ALL IS EXPANDING AT THE SAME RATE
HOW ACURATE IS ANY MEASURE

besides here is the big point[phenootype[ie what a beast 'looks-like'..cant prOVE GENOTYPe relations evolution needs confirm/or DENEY[TO VALIDATE MACRO EVOLUTION

[LIke last ime i looked/the steps OF ;'WHALE EVOLUTIOn;;/lost the ancestors by finding oOTHER FOSSILS/OF THE MIspresumed evolution/that preCEEDS THAT IT WAS THEORISED TO HAVE EVOLVED BY[UNDER THE THEORY]

ANOTHer point is taxonomy has been refuted by mendelism

<<..The fossils are dead...>>
And only 'resembe/versions;of a theORY
[MOST THE 'NEW DISCOVERIES OF MENS EVOLUTION ARE FRAUD[AT ONE STAGE ALL THE ORIGONAL /BONES WERE LOST

CONVENIENTLY/ALL THEY HAVE LEFT WAS PLASTER CASTS
NEVER THE LESS SO MANY FAKES[..invalidates macro-evolution

it fauls science rigure
crunching real numbers

<<..They don't speak...Their history and meaning must be interpreted. You (with your modernist outlook, perhaps) interpret the fossils as speaking of evolution (decent from lower life forms). Other people see in the fossils evidence for stasis, that is, no evolution but variation around the common form or kind. There is no one objective interpretation.>>

TOO TRUE
[GOD GIVES EACH BODY THE BEST MEANS
TO SATISFY/THE LIVING SPIRITS NEeds/BUT/THE FIRST BODIES[were embodied fears]

[i recall/THAT THE JUDGMENT ANIMALS;THE CARNIVORS/TOOK MY ancestors/flesh\leaving only thE HEAD.[THE HEAD/of the deer/not of the hart* IS MY HERALIDIC TOTUM][THAt and the GOLDEN-HOrn-of plenty/horn/OF WARNING]of the horn of issiah/remaining\on the pire

. 

Dear one under god,
 
.
 
You quoted me :

<<..It‘s a two-sided coin. On the other side of the coin, it engenders rejection, intolerance, bigotry and hate.>>

.

And you replied :

«  hang-on THERE/TOO Many instant/conclusions
FAITH..MORE LIKELY engenders affection rather THAT HATE[NEEDING FEAR FACTORS]

FAITH INCLUDES REJECTION ONLY TO THE EXTENT OF NO ACCEPTANCE
but basically faith more LEADS *..to yet further acceptances[Further derivative-faiths..[THAT EITHER weaken/or strengthen/faith=INTO..??  »

.

I was referring to “belief” (not "faith") which I wrote “never comes alone. It’s a two sided coin …”. In your reply you refer to “faith”, not “belief”. The two words are fairly similar in meaning but “faith” has more of a religious connotation and I did not use that word. I was referring to "belief" in the broader sense of the term because, as you noted yourself, the hostilities in the Middle East are not (just) religious.

You then indicate that “faith more likely engenders affection …”. That may be so but you are looking at same side of the coin, not the other side of the coin as I was. In referring to “belief” I stated that “on the other side of the coin, it engenders rejection, intolerance, bigotry and hate”.

It’s the “yin-yang” principle if you like (yin being negative and yang positive). I indicated that where there is “belief” (yang) on one side of the coin, there is rejection, intolerance, bigotry or hate (yin), depending on the degree of certainty of the “belief”, on the other side of the coin.

I agree with you that there are all sorts of nice things on the yang (positive) side of the coin, but what do you see on the yin (negative) side of the coin for “belief”. What negative consequences are engendered by "belief" in your opinion ?

Would you be so kind as to turn the coin over and tell me what you see ?

.

quote;..<<... What negative consequences are engendered by "belief" in your opinion ?

Would you be so kind as to turn the coin over and tell me what you see ?>>

as a kid;..i believed..in tv heroes
MY TV HERO/BECAME A BLOOD BROTHER/damm caps
I HAVE THE SCAR ON MY PALM/TO THIS DAY/as for the other 5 year old
I DONT KNOW;he refuseD TO TALK TO ME/when i tried contact/him

my mum has forgotten/but the trust i had in heroes..is gone
but here im talking aboUT TRUST..belief..in its negatives..is open to self delusion;
we can have a love[lief=love]..and the opposite to being the embodyment;of love[still isnt anti beliEF

anti belief/may BE BELIEFS THAT DECIEVE OR MISSLEAD
OR THAT GENERATE INCREDULITY VERGING ON DISBELIEF..[DC]

if faith were a coin/BOTH FACES NEED Be GOOD/TRUE
COIN IS A LOADED TERM..LETS SAY THAT GOOD IS A PERCEption
which means faithlessness= a miss perception/unrealISTIC/UNREALISAble faith.

.but..i see im over-thinking
<<... What negative consequences..>>
if i have A MISSPLACED/OR MISSDIRECTED FAITH
the negative concesquences in hell/and\heaven;your cast out..thats a negative consequence[in life an error made in good faith; is accepted as a reason to void CONTRACT

OK NEGATIVE con*SEQUENCES..are engendered by
ACTING ON/EXpressing an eror..based on errant belief

AVERSE EVENTS..follow MISBELIEF

NO THE FOCUS IS TO GENERAL..
"belief" in your opinion ?..cant out-weigh facts
JESUS SAID; your faith has made you..welL..so bad 'faith';makes ya sick

<<>.Would you be so kind as to turn the coin over..and tell me what you see ?>>

I will do better/than that;i will deVINE; THE REPLY

my reply;..1 cor;..[note 2;5]
CONTEXT;..1..CORINTHIANS 1;31-..CHAPTER 2..;1-16..

quote;..<<... What negative consequences are engendered by "belief" in your opinion ?

Would you be so kind as to turn the coin over and tell me what you see ?>>

as a kid;..i believed..in tv heroes
MY TV HERO/BECAME A BLOOD BROTHER/damm caps
I HAVE THE SCAR ON MY PALM/TO THIS DAY/as for the other 5 year old
I DONT KNOW;he refuseD TO TALK TO ME/when i tried contact/him

my mum has forgotten/but the trust i had in heroes..is gone
but here im talking aboUT TRUST..belief..in its negatives..is open to self delusion;
we can have a love[lief=love]..and the opposite to being the embodyment;of love[still isnt anti beliEF

anti belief/may BE BELIEFS THAT DECIEVE OR MISSLEAD
OR THAT GENERATE INCREDULITY VERGING ON DISBELIEF..[DC]

if faith were a coin/BOTH FACES NEED Be GOOD/TRUE
COIN IS A LOADED TERM..LETS SAY THAT GOOD IS A PERCEption
which means faithlessness= a miss perception/unrealISTIC/UNREALISAble faith.

.but..i see im over-thinking
<<... What negative consequences..>>
if i have A MISSPLACED/OR MISSDIRECTED FAITH
the negative concesquences in hell/and\heaven;your cast out..thats a negative consequence[in life an error made in good faith; is accepted as a reason to void CONTRACT

OK NEGATIVE con*SEQUENCES..are engendered by
ACTING ON/EXpressing an eror..based on errant belief

AVERSE EVENTS..follow MISBELIEF

NO THE FOCUS IS TO GENERAL..
"belief" in your opinion ?..cant out-weigh facts
JESUS SAID; your faith has made you..welL..so bad 'faith';makes ya sick

<<>.Would you be so kind as to turn the coin over..and tell me what you see ?>>

I will do better/than that;i will deVINE; THE REPLY

my reply;..1cor;..[note 2;5]
CONTEXT;..1..CORINTHIANS 1;31-..CHAPTER 2..;1-16..