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The Forum > Article Comments > Why tolerate religion? > Comments

Why tolerate religion? : Comments

By Ralph Seccombe, published 19/6/2014

Given the universal human rights of freedom of speech, freedom of assembly etc etc, should there be a separate and additional category of religious rights?

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'Rather, it's busy instituting its own form of religion - a type of secular humanism. '

Cetrtainly is Dan S de Merengue and what a miserable failure it has been. It actually has more in common with Islam than any other religion/ideologies.
Posted by runner, Tuesday, 24 June 2014 2:57:25 PM
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Lourdes Miracle, No. 61 of 67.

"Elisa ALOI

Born on 26.11.1931 in Patti (Sicily)

Cured on 5.6.1958, in her 27th. year. Miracle on 26.5.1965, by Mgr Francesco Fasola, Archbishop of Messine.

This was the last cure involving multiple tuberculous lesions.

Elisa ALOI was nearly 17 years old when her illness began with a white swelling" of the right knee (tuberculous arthritis). In the following 10 years, up to 1958, she developed numerous tuberculous infections in bones and joints. At these sites, fistulae usually occured, requiring in-patient treatment in hospitals and sanatoria. Despite more or less immediate treatment, relapses and recurrences were for ever happening.

In June 1957, in desperation, she went to Lourdes with the Unitalsi Pilgrimage from Sicily.

She did not seem to benefit from the visit really.

But in 1958, she went to Lourdes again in a much worse condition, encased in a pelvis-to-foot plaster cast, with four fistulae drained through it. The dressings were soaked in Lourdes' water during the pilgrimage. Just ten days after she had left Sicily, her surgeon observed and wrote "Elisa ALOI returned from Lourdes completely cured".

The Medical Bureau in Lourdes recognised her cure, and handed her dossier to the International Medical Committee in 1960.

There, Professor Salmon, the recorder, had his report of a medically inexplicable cure adopted by the Committee.

Finally, after the Canonical Commission had given a favourable report, Mgr Fasola, Archbishop of Messine, declared "that the cure from multiple fistulous tuberculosis, which happened to Elisa ALOI, is miraculous" on 26.5.1965.

Some months later she married. Between 1966 and 1974, she gave birth safely to four children, which without any doubt was "the best evidence of her complete cure"

Can anyone point to, or give, a scientific explanation of this reported happening?
Posted by Is Mise, Tuesday, 24 June 2014 3:10:59 PM
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Dear Foxy,

<<Although religion is a universal social institution, it takes a multitude of forms.>>

Well, here seems to be the source of the colossal misunderstanding that is expressed by many posts here: religion is not a social institution.

Religion is all about coming closer to God rather than about social issues. Yes, since there are a multitude of religious methods, they incidentally also reflect in a multitude of ways on society, but that's only a side-effect of religion, not its goal.

Sadly there are others who are not religious, but take a ride on the name of God and try to achieve their social goals by calling themselves a "religion" - they should be exposed and condemned.

---
Regarding miracles, if they exist then they are detrimental to religion, because they destroy faith, tending to replace it with evidence.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Tuesday, 24 June 2014 3:43:58 PM
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Is mise, spontaneous healing or 'cure' of tuberculosis is has been noted for a long time.

Here's an abstract of a paper from modern medicine that deals with one aspect of it:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20958211

And here's an article that shows that it has been known about for quite some time:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2273842/?page=1

Miracle? Maybe by older medical standards.

Need to go to Lourdes for it to happen?
No.
Posted by Bugsy, Tuesday, 24 June 2014 4:02:14 PM
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Bugsy,

Very interesting but neither article refers to such quick cures and neither addresses the case quoted,

Jardine K. Jardine,

To vote informally is not a crime, for to do so one only has to "make" an obvious mistake, such as "unintentionally" giving first choice to two candidates.

Suse,

"You can't be serious?
Are you suggesting only those worshipping a Catholic god are 'in favour'?"
That's not what I said; look up 'comprehension'.

Ojnab,

You said "....there never was a God or Jesus, so we need not worry any more about such trivialities,"

The writings of the 1st century Romano-Jewish historian Flavius Josephus include references to Jesus and the origins of Christianity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sources_for_the_historicity_of_Jesus

Tacitus.
"The Roman historian and senator Tacitus referred to Christ, his execution by Pontius Pilate and the existence of early Christians in Rome in his final work, Annals (written ca. AD 116), book 15, chapter 44.

The context of the passage is the six-day Great Fire of Rome that burned much of the city in AD 64 during the reign of Roman Emperor Nero.[2] The passage is one of the earliest non-Christian references to the origins of Christianity, the execution of Christ described in the Canonical gospels, and the presence and persecution of Christians in 1st-century Rome.

Scholars generally consider Tacitus's reference to the execution of Jesus by Pontius Pilate to be both authentic, and of historical value as an independent Roman source."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus_on_Christ
Posted by Is Mise, Tuesday, 24 June 2014 4:47:45 PM
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Dear Yuyutsu,

The great variety of religious behaviour and belief
makes it very difficult to say exactly what
"religion" is. Many definitions have been offered in the
past, but most of the ones we are familiar with have been
biased by ethnocentirc Judeo-Christian ideas about
religion. These ideas are based on a number of central
beliefs; that there exists one supreme being or God;
that God created the universe and all life and takes
a continuing interest in the creation; that there is a life
hereafter; and that our moral behaviour in this life
influences our fate in the next.

In cross-cultural terms, however, this particular
combination of beliefs is unusual. Many religions do not
recognize a supreme being, and a number do not believe in
gods at all. Several religions ignore questions about
the origin of the universe and life, leaving these problems
to be dealt with instead by nonreligious myth.

Many religions assume that the gods take little interest in
human affairs. Some have almost nothing to say about life
after death, and many - perhaps most - do not link our
earthly morality with our fate beyond the grave.

Obviously, religion cannot be defined in terms of
Western religious tradition alone.

Emile Durkheim, one of the first sociologists to study
religion, pointed out that a single feature is common to
all religions; a sharp distinction between the sacred
and the profane.

cont'd ...
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 24 June 2014 5:21:54 PM
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