Dear Banjo,

“Belief that union with or absorption into the Deity or the absolute, or the spiritual apprehension of knowledge inaccessible to the intellect, may be attained through contemplation and self-surrender”. (Oxford Dictionary quoted by you).

“Belief that union with or absorption into the Deity or the absolute, or the spiritual apprehension of knowledge inaccessible to the intellect, may be attained through contemplation and self-surrender. (Webster built into my Mac OS 10.9, quoted by me after leaving out for brevity the part about believing and “may be” and smuggling in “including imagination” to make the contrast to imagination more explicit.

So you are right that mysticism as such refers nor so much to an ACTIVITY of the human mind as to the BELIEF that such an activity, or, better, state of mind can point to something beyond human imagination; the difference between seeing a finger and believing that it points to something.

The word “imagination” is a specific English word (my online dictionary has eleven German words as its possible translation depending on context) and as you point out, even in English it can have also everyday meanings. On the other hand, books have been written about mysticism or the art of having mystical experiences (contemplation, meditation) irrespective of whether or not one admits the possibility of them pointing to something beyond the individual mental.

Since I never had such experiences I feel defending them like the person who is defending the importance of mathematics to express the laws of quantum physics without being able to understand much of such mathematics.

Thanks for raising the question of imagination and mysticism, although I indeed believe that we have derailed the thread.

george*quote..<<..Since..I..never had/such experiences..edited..mathematics.>>

THIS/IS..A PERFECT EXAMPLE..OF..THE TALK..OF ANGELS
the next is the perfect 'mind selF ego-talk..of the demons
[trying to void THIS previous wisdom..that enjOINS IS TO OTHER]

..SO...I WILL..REPLY THE NEGATIVE/of
beast-ego/MINd talk/first..

<<..although..I indeed believe..that..we have derailed..the thread.>>

thats clearLY..ON TOPIC..as many need/be..made aware..of/[what includes..a 'good' funeral..[ONE THAT SEEKS..HEALING/FORGIVENESS GRACE/MERCY..AS ITS MAIN-POINT..[GIFT]..FOR ALL Concerned]

many times..i have seen..fake greAT MEN..BURIED..under some..AURA/THAT REVEALS NOthing..of the real personal/EMBODIED evil they did..UNDER SOME/AUTOCRATIC/DE*MOC*RATIC/PROTECTIVE AURA..NOT to speak..of the dead/or/that the dead..are dead/so its..wasted EFFORT

THING IS..OUR SO CALLED FRIENDS.LIE TO US
ENEMIES DELIGHT..in revealing our feet...of clay
but..IN THE NEXT LIFE..TRUTH IS ALL THAT EXISTS..ALL PRETENSE FALLS AWAY

[THERE ARE NO SECRETS There[your soul-body allows..all the inner secrets to/be revealed..[whaT HERE YOU MANAGED'TO CONCEAL..is fully sen by anyone/everyone..and those feigning are exposed..fully completely..WITH THE MORTE..[UN-DEAD]..POSSIBLY..FOR THE FIRST TIME..REALLY KNOWING HOW LITTLE..THESE Mates..thought of him

he hears..the nice WORDS
BUT SEES THE TRuth..nice words often conceal
manY AFTER SHUTTLING OFF..THE MORTAL COIL..FIND THE enemies to be their truest friends..[once someone..'lied'..something inside them DIEd

<<..Thanks for raising the question..of imagination and mysticism,>>
anD OPENING-UP..TO the truth..by enabling the correction..of a faulsity.

see how..once we believe..a common end..the wAY of how..WE GOT THERE SEEMS MORE...EASILY Defensible..take george/FOR EXAMPLE..HE knows..the truth..OF GOD AFTER LIFE ETC..[AS DOES YU]..THUS EACH CAN DEFEND THE WAY..They each got to the truth..because our defense of each OTHERS BELIEFS..ALONE PROVIDE THE PROOF..and re-proof.

THATS WHY..THE DRAWING ON PAGE 19...[page 31?]..[and 32]..is so important..see that page 32 DEFINES OUR OWN AFTER LIFE INTRESTS[THE HOW]..just as page 31..reveals the where..[but 31 inclUDES THE POINT I JUST TRIED..TO MAKE

see please the religious groupings get fewer..
and the final division'S..is oNE GOD OR MANY GODS..

[PLEASe notE there aint a 'no god' option/FOR OF TRUTH..WE EAch will be gods/just in the thinking of it..by the thread..we built our higher sOUL BODY...BUILT UPON OUR Passions..[THAT FORM OUR SOUL].. either way.

ITS ABOUT THE WAY..AND SADLY THE UNHAPPY FUN-ERAL WENT FERAL
BUT wee COME TO BURY DEAD IDEAS..NOT praise nor erase/them

[as is the intro..page iii..[page 6?]
for its last PAGES]

THATS WHY..THE DRAWING ON PAGE 19...[page 31?]..[and 32]..is so important..see that page 32

http://www.ghostcircle.com/ebooks/JSM_Ward%20-%20Gone_West.pdf

DEFINES..OUR OWN AFTER LIFE INTERESTS..IE..[THE HOW]..means
just as page 31..reveals the where..[but 31 inclUDES THE POINT I JUST TRIED..TO MAKE..in previous post..OF..how once you 'KNOW'..YOU CAN SUPPORT OTHERS WAYS..TO THE SAME Knowing..[even if/in knowing THE SAME ULTIMATE TRUTHS..by the fruits..even if they came an OTHER WAY]

see please the religious groupings ]OPTIONS..get fewer..AS we get closer to the higher heaven..and the final division'S..is oNE GOD OR MANY GODS..[AND EVER MORE Messengers]

[PLEASe notE there aint a 'no god' option/FOR OF TRUTH..WE EAch will be gods/just in the thinking of it..by the thread..we built our higher sOUL BODY...BUILT UPON OUR Passions..[THAT FORM OUR SOUL].. either way.

ITS ABOUT THE WAY..AND SADLY THE UNHAPPY FUN-ERAL WENT FERAL
BUT wee COME TO BURY DEAD IDEAS..NOT praise nor erase/them

[as is the intro..page iii..[page 6?]
for its last PAGES]

We all, strange to say, are rather lonely here. We are too much alike to be
companions, and want to get on, so as to meet our old friends, who, we believe, are in
other sets.
“I am learning, but it’s slow work. I feel like a schoolboy again. It’s funny — I died
on my birthday and was really born here on it.”
J. W. “Did you know anything of your funeral?”
H. J. L. “Yes, I saw myself lying dead, and saw you come and look at me.
“Be sure and tell Carrie what, I said; that it saves a lot of time if you do believe, and
that we do live after death. I am very glad I believed as much as I did, and I wish I had
believed more.”
J. W. “Would you go back if you could?”
H. J. L. “No, certainly not. I am much happier here. I am making progress.
“However, I must be off now. It seems a funny thing to say to a schoolmaster, but I
have to begin my schooling all over again.”

earlier/ON..a mention..WAS MADE..[i still disagree]..
WITH..[THAT GOD..DONT EXIST]..THAT he thus..insists.../BLAH.

i referenced..the..[REFORMED?]..atheist/article/EARLIER
http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=11008&page=0

QUOTE,,..<<..We were..like those who,..in my dream,...perpetually moved around..the perimeter..[darK/EDGES]..of the forest clearing..with the circular patch of sunlight..at their centre.

And so my journey..has continued ever since...After a week of tiring, often thankless..and depressing or angering life..in the outer world, the Eucharist[Light?]gives new strength..and awareness of the abiding centre from which I draw life...I come away refreshed,..with inspiration to face the world without pretences and defences during the coming week,..like the ewe-boy.>>..

..<<God as..the Insistent Reality..>>....GROSSLY..MISS-REPRESENTS..GODS/EXPERIENCED/NATURE...[persistent/maybe..insistent/hardy]

GODS/INVERTED/INNER/INSISTANT/REAL-ITY<<..As the seat of will,..memory..>>..RUbbish..god/wills..only as we will
memory..comes via ASOSIATION/WITH HERD MIND[Ego/spirit/cloud-mind

<<...and other functions,..>>[life/living/LOGIC/LOVE/etc]

<<..the ego is indispensable..for every human personality..to live effectively..[in the world]..The great lie..that the ego tells, however,...is that it can be..in and of itself.>>..agreed

<<..It was born as..a constellation..of energy derived from –and sustained by –an infinite...and eternal tide..in the collective unconscious of humanity.>>..cLOSE-ENOUGH

<<..If the ego accepts..this indebtedness>>..TO ANCEstor/AND\THE AS YET UNBORN..<<..for its very being..it can begin to dismantle its defences,..to admit that it cannot be..without [in*ter-]relationship.>>

<<>When it'S strips down..closer to the authenticity..of the ewe-boy it encounters,..at least in some small ways,..the genuine Other from which it came..and others who also came from there...And while the authentic life...makes one more vulnerable it also opens one to a more abundant stream of love and peace.>>

<<>And so Matthew Arnold's exhortation..to.."be true to one another" is an invitation..to insist who you really are.>>BEHAVIORILLY/CULTURALY/SEXUALY/INHERANTLY?

are you/a..<<.."Truth",..regarded..from this viewpoint,..is a way of being..rather than an object..or logical conception...>>[OF OTHERLY BEING?]

<<..Put a little differently,..truth is the eternal demand..that we accept...that the ground of our..being is beyond individual ego-life and..common to all humanity.>>

good points/but poor argument..god demands/nuthin*

<<>.I call that ground>>..[being is beyond individual ego-life]..<<..of my being.."God"...>>..the root error

<<>.God is not..a supernatural entity,..[thus?]..does not exist.>>

ANY That exists..=is=..naturally..existing/By natural process

<<..But God insists..in the collective unconscious,>>
ERROR..inversion..god fully = awaRENESS/CONSIOus awarness[ever present/ever concious awaRENESS

<<..and from God..I..(ego)..came.>>
YOU/CAME..OF GOD..NOT FROM GOD..ergo..BEFORE/YOU GOT..insistent/EGO

<<>.To be true to this insistent reality..I offer these thoughts for your consideration.>>..ITS Rubbish..[sorry]..its a fad..to decieve/confOUND/CONFUSE/DIVIDE...MUCH LIke any funERAL

.

Dear George,

.

You wrote:

"So you are right that mysticism as such refers nor so much to an ACTIVITY of the human mind as to the BELIEF that such an activity, or, better, state of mind can point to something beyond human imagination; the difference between seeing a finger and believing that it points to something". 

To "imagine" that "something" can be "beyond human imagination" seems an oxymoron or, at least, an incoherence - which is a little surprising for a brilliant mathematician such as yourself - don't you think ?

Or is it my logic which is up the creek ?

http://www.whosdatedwho.com/tpx_62033/cheap-trick/tpx_2064561

.

.
 
Dear George and Ojnab,
 
.
 
You are right, we should get back to the subject in hand : « The awful funeral ».

You will recall that the author, Fra Sellick, wrote as an introduction to the subject:

“We now attend funerals in which a number of speakers are let loose on the congregation tolling the virtues of the deceased, often blubbering into the microphone as they read scripts spat out by computer printers. There are the old timers who insist on tracing the whole of the life of the dead. There are the grandchildren who get teary about Grandad or Grandma. It is all too much and too long and most often tells us what we know already or do not wish to know”.

Sounds like Fra Sellick would like to get rid of every single member of the family - friends and acquaintances as well - everybody in fact - lock, stock and barrel.

For an Anglican deacon "working" in Perth, that is a fairly cynical and despicable attitude to say the least. It just goes to show what a poor opinion Fra Sellick has of his parishioners. No respect whatsoever. He seems to disdain them !

He obviously does not want to share the centre of the stage with anyone. He wants to keep it all to himself. He obviously considers it's his church. He has no doubt that he is the only one capable of making a proper speech and everyone has to listen to him.

Of course, most people never go to church these days, except for funerals. . If Fra Sellick had his way, they would stop going to funerals too.

Who are funerals for anyway ? . Fra Sellick ? . God (presuming he exists) ? ...

I guess that's about it !

Along as Fra Sellick is happy. That's the main thing.

What did he call it ? An awful funeral ?
 
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