The National Forum   Donate   Your Account   On Line Opinion   Forum   Blogs   Polling   About   
The Forum - On Line Opinion's article discussion area



Syndicate
RSS/XML


RSS 2.0

Main Articles General

Sign In      Register

The Forum > Article Comments > The awful funeral > Comments

The awful funeral : Comments

By Peter Sellick, published 14/3/2014

We now attend funerals in which a number of speakers are let loose on the congregation tolling the virtues of the deceased, often blubbering into the microphone as they read scripts spat out by computer printers.

  1. Pages:
  2. 1
  3. 2
  4. 3
  5. ...
  6. 24
  7. 25
  8. 26
  9. All
Many of us are not interested in salvation under the rules of Peter Sellick's god.

Many people make a great success in this life by living a full and generous life.

I attended one excellent funeral; a funeral for a high school teacher popular with his staff compatriots and with almost all the students, even those who had tried his patience.

The funeral service contained comments on many of the things in life that the deceased enjoyed and finished with a hearty rendition of "When the Saints go Marching In". Many of those attending joined in.

It was a fitting tribute to a man who had been generous with his time and concern for others, rather than taking any selfish interest in his prospects in some highly unlikely, probably impossible, future life.

For myself, I prefer to follow in that teacher's lifetime footsteps and, at my end, have my life celebrated in like manner.
Posted by Foyle, Friday, 14 March 2014 8:19:14 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Goodness me. I can only say that my father's secular funeral, planned and conducted by his family, was infinitely more comforting and meaningful to me than the impersonal fire-and-brimstone babbling of the parson who conducted my grandfather's.

The notion that only a funeral can only be meaningful to the bereaved if it contains ample reference to Sell's special deity(TM) is laughable. Try again.
Posted by JBSH, Friday, 14 March 2014 8:25:29 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
This is a well-written reminder for Christians, but what have you to offer those who are not?
Posted by Yuyutsu, Friday, 14 March 2014 8:48:10 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
What an awful person, such lack of empathy, for those who can find no words of their own, because they are completely consumed with grief!
I plan to make a video, that can be shown at my funeral, and a place I'm just dying to get to. Nudge nudge wink wink say no more. A nod is as good as a wink to a blind horse, or for that matter, a corpse.
This video will tell all those who come, possibly as many as half a dozen, What a great bloke I was, and as I aged, all my triumphs became larger and larger! That the older I got, the better I was; and, that I still exist, but in a very different form, that nonetheless, retains memories and love for all those attend, in full to overflowing measure.
If one person can truly say, I made a difference, that the world is a better place for my having been part of it, I promise not to haunt them!
Nor will I haunt those who sing my praises, [even if those praises are compiled by a computer.] If the good I've done outweighs my bad or thoughtlessness, I will rest in peace.
I will have four songs played; namely, to reach the impossible stars, I did it my way, everybody have a drink on me, and my Mother told me there'd be days like this.
Finally, I'd expect everyone to go away, and party like there's no tomorrow, which would be then true for me! And in the fullness of time, this awful awful author!
Rhrosty.
Posted by Rhrosty, Friday, 14 March 2014 9:45:41 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
.

Dear Peter,

.

I think there is a basic misunderstanding here as to why people choose to have a church ceremony. In your view, “ a funeral is an occasional act of worship of God “.

Most people never go to church these days except when somebody close to them dies. I doubt that their prime motivation in doing so, on such (fortunately) rare occasions, is to worship God.

If they make an exception and go to church for a funeral, it is because it is a very human reaction of sympathy and love for the dead person and a natural movement of solidarity with friends and family and all those who share in the loss and seek mutual comfort.

The church is felt to be the most appropriate setting for such a gathering with a priest officiating, even if he happens to be awful, which, unfortunately is sometimes the case, particularly if he misinterprets the purpose of their visit.

.
Posted by Banjo Paterson, Friday, 14 March 2014 10:42:19 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
I find myself in slight agreement with Peter Sellick IF we are restricting his comments to a church-based service of worship to accord with the established religious beliefs of the deceased.

Otherwise we should regard it as a memorial service and the family and friends' expectations should be met with appropriate consideration of the church/temple/etc.

If the gathering is elsewhere then the form of it, however awful, is entirely the business of the 'bereaved'.

Though having said that, I'm not dying to have Peter Sellick officiate at my funeral...
Posted by WmTrevor, Friday, 14 March 2014 11:58:40 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Thanks, Peter, for pointing out the routine meaningless social performances that many funerals have become. Their functions have grown into almost a cultural "norm" where performance is valued more than the meaning or emotion behind such gatherings. Of course there is a real grief, a sense of loss; this is a very natural reaction.
But most mourners fail to understand that the end of one existence marks the start of another.
What's really to be sad about the beginning of something new?
Posted by Ponder, Friday, 14 March 2014 12:03:40 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
What does the author mean by "worship of God"? Is God a megalomaniac demanding that we ignore the needs of the family and the life of the deceased? I have attended Christian funerals which have been stone cold, morbid, lacking in empathy and sensitivity, and I am a Christian. Then again, the only civil celebrant funeral I have attended was, frankly, dreadful.
God is worshipped through our care of others; through our empathy for others; through our acknowledgement of others; through our support of others etc. The idea that God can only, or must, be worshipped, through liturgical formalities is, surely, nonsense. I am planning that my funeral will be a joyful affair: a celebration of faith, family, life and music. Absolutely no black. The God I believe in is a God who worships us and understands our needs, especially at times of bereavement.
Posted by Francis, Friday, 14 March 2014 12:29:29 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
What can separate us from the love of God? In my understanding, the truth that any evidence for the existence of a god or gods is unpersuasive.
In the meantime, i will continue to worship that good old idol, money, and live what Tom Lehrer called my drab, wretched life, unconsoled by faith or fairies, though fond of Tolkien's elves.
And what music at my own funeral?. With apologies for lack of originality: Another One Bites the Dust.
Posted by Asclepius, Friday, 14 March 2014 12:45:36 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Poor Peter, desperately trying to justify his beliefs and his paycheck by frantically searching for some situation, any situation, in which his apophatic -- aka 'nonexistent' -- God can get some traction. If your Sky Daddy is no longer in the sky, Peter, then his rules are no longer in force, and we can celebrate or commiserate the departure of our loved ones in any way that we choose. If that no longer brings a reliable income to the church, so much the better.

But honestly -- 'The discovery by biblical scholars and theologians that the world to come, called the kingdom of God/heaven was an emerging reality in this world ...' Who 'discovered' this, Peter? What evidence do they have that their 'discovery' is genuine? And why have they had such a hard time convincing the 95% of Christians who remain assured that God is an actual person and Heaven is real? Believe in nothing by all means, but don't try and pretend that the nothing you believe in bears any resemblance to Christianity -- or any other religion.
Posted by Jon J, Friday, 14 March 2014 1:14:18 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Perhaps if we did not have the church or funeral parlours to show us the nicety of death, which is commercial, then we may have to put up with the death a la natural, that is to have ants, blowflies, maggots etc and your own body reducing you with a watery, smelling, rotting body returning you to the elements, which you do not see when a coffin is up front with flowers, we are no different in death to any animal, we are not sacred as most people believe, this would be our ending with no one talking about an after life or God, or a house full of rooms, just rotting somewhere on our own, this is a fact.
Posted by Ojnab, Friday, 14 March 2014 1:35:49 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
'. The discovery by biblical scholars and theologians that the world to come, called the kingdom of God/heaven was an emerging reality in this world put paid to the hope of afterlife and knocked out a support for the faith much relied upon in previous centuries '

Peter sure knows how to make a mockery out of Jesus words, His death and resurrection. No wonder the anglican church is going down the sewer. The denial by a 'deacon' of a literal heaven and hell is sure sign of that the writer ignorance of God.
Posted by runner, Friday, 14 March 2014 3:48:51 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Thank you, runner. Peter, there speaks a genuine Christian, one of the type that pays your wages. How long are you going to go on betraying them by peddling atheism under the guise of Christianity?
Posted by Jon J, Friday, 14 March 2014 4:03:48 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Yes Sells at his awful pretentious worst!
I have been to many funerals in recent times and quite frankly the ones conducted in various Christian churches have been so tacky as to be cringingly painful. Especially all the ridiculous nonsense about the "lord jesus christ"

But what is death really all about, and what does the death of an other tell us about the nature of "I" and Reality altogether?
http://www.adidam.org/death_and_dying/journal/death_insult.htm
http://www.adidam.org/death_and_dying/journal/no_self_dies.htm
Posted by Daffy Duck, Friday, 14 March 2014 4:22:46 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
I think the 'Celebration of Life' funerals and services arose in reaction to the dire offerings of the Christian funeral service. Clergy who seemed to be just going through the motions and even reading bits of the service that had been spewed out of a printer.

Any C of L services I have attended have been prepared with great love and sensitivity by the families concerned, and feeling uplifted rather than depressed at the end of a sad occasion has to be a good thing.
Posted by Candide, Friday, 14 March 2014 5:24:19 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
sells/quote..<<>..What we get instead is a celebration of the life of the deceased..as if that celebration fills the chasm that death threatens to create.>>..

in a funny way it does..once you get over all the junk of iSRAEL/PRmised land..and everyone 'getting' to heaven/WE FORGET THE FUNERAL IS ABOUT THE CROSSED OVER SPIRIT..first foremoist..we gather for theM

SURE TO COMFORT..THE GRIEVING..but lets face it we are here for the dear departed..or its a trick..

<<..But no amount of the celebration of life will extinguish death's dark shadow, the end of all human possibilities.>>.its sad that you see a shadow..death is a rebirthing..not an ending[for good or ill..we know as a surity..the dead ARE NOT 'DEAD'

INFACT..THEY SHALL CONTINUE TO interacT..WITH THE LIVING..for longer or shorter PERIODS OF TIME..they are as close as a thought away/we need but think of them/and they are there[their biggest grief..is our grief/yes ouR GRIEVING THEIR 'DEATH'..IS THE SINGLE BIGGEST PROBLEM OF THE DEAD

..<<..Certainly to give thanks for a life lived no matter how distinguished or short is commendable.>>..THIS BECOMES SUBJECT TOP ROTE CREED AND OTHERWISE FORMULATION..NOT ALL LIVES WILL BE COMMENDABLE/IN FACT IN DEATH..the 'departed'..for the first time hear the unver\\arnished truth.

directly/mind to mind..yes they hear.the fine speecHED..BUT ALSIO..our minds commenting/reacting..tO THE THOUGHTS TRUTH..OR FAULSity[THE TRUE HELL IS THERE IS NO SECRET..ANYMORE

<<>.It acknowledges that all of life is a temporary gift, but to simply celebrate life in the face of death leads us nowhere.>>

UTTER INDCOCTRINATE IGNORANCE
the spirit moves on when WE MOVE ON/IF WE HAUNT THEIR NEXT LIFE BY CONSTABNTLY THINKING OF THEM FUTILLY/HURTFULLY OR blaming them for leaving..its true hell/we need show them a better EXPECTATion/givE THEM HOPE/BY BEING TRUE

YOU IMAGINE..YOUR IN HELL..your fun-eral begiNS..AND THEY TALK OF ISRAEL...hells bellsi am in the depths of hell..and thats the BEST ADVICE YOu can tell?

<<..It is mere dancing in the dark.>>..
HEre we need mention thAT THOSE OBSESSED with the persona/moretal boDY..HAVE OFTEN LONG ATTATCHMENTS TO THEIR FLESH..[suicides need special care..the body must be destructed..[its not unusual for suicides to retain attatchment.to their dead[preserved flesh]..till their 'natural life term expiRES.
Posted by one under god, Friday, 14 March 2014 7:30:05 PM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
I am a non-theist, and have attended many funerals. The worst funeral services by far are those conducted by clergy in their churches where they rave on endlessly about someone called Jesus Christ, almost completely ignoring the deceased whose body is lying there in a coffin. Dreary old nineteenth century hymns are "sung" by the sheep-like congregation, and so on. It's just plain awful. In complete contrast are those maligned (by Peter Sellick)Celebration of Life funerals where everyone is at least talking about the deceased. Sure, some of these CL "services" are pretty maudlin, but mostly they are what the family really want. It's their way (and their privilege)of saying good bye to someone they loved and respected. There is no evidence whatsoever for any existence after death, so let's simply celebrate a life of someone who was our mother, father, sister, brother, colleague or friend. No wonder people are leaving the churches in droves these days when you see what goes on at a "religious" funeral service.
Posted by phenologist, Friday, 14 March 2014 8:30:47 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
There are those who prefer Christian funerals, those he prefer Buddhist funerals, etc and recently we have had also those who prefer Celebration of Life funerals. I know that Christian funerals are - or are supposed to be - about hope as a wrodview orientation, full stop. I am not sure, and probably would not understand, what the others are about.

It is obvious that those who go to funerals of the kind that they would not have chosen for their deceased loved ones are disappointed and do not appreciate the ceremony. It is less obvious why they have a need to publicly ridicule such ceremonies as meaningless just because they are meaningless to them.
Posted by George, Friday, 14 March 2014 8:33:08 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
I'm inclined to agree with Peter Selleck. If there's no belief in an afterlife and the universe is indifferent, why have any ceremony at all? Why indulge in pagan, nay worse, egoistic ritual--ritual dishonesty--when we're just compost? Indeed a secular funeral is much like a secular wedding, an infringement of copyright. Secularists have no imagination, all they can do is rip-off religionists and get all sombre and serious over what? Some lucky bastard who thanks to a few fawning mates doesn't die anonymously, gets shrouded in bullsh!t.
For all the demonising of religionists, you'd think the secularists would come up with something more suitable to deal with mortality--something suitably contemptuous. I've long thought cadavers would make excellent blood and bone. Now this is offensive to Christians, but why should it bother atheists? They give up their organs for posterity, which makes for a great eulogy, but this is idealism; what's the point preserving or celebrating life when it's of no more moment than a wave breaking on the shore? H G Wells' Eloi are true humanists. What are we celebrating in a life past? If we allow the logic of the atheist argument then even our precious reason, which they hold so dear (and on faith), can be nothing more than conceit. Explain reason--reduce it--that's the challenge.
Posted by Squeers, Friday, 14 March 2014 9:25:20 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Squeezers, being an Atheist I do not mind becoming blood & bone for the garden, in fact that is where I will be thrown out after my cremation, I will not be in heaven or hell, just blowing with the wind, how nice
Posted by Ojnab, Friday, 14 March 2014 9:40:10 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
I'm a practising Christian and quite frankly am wondering just where Peter is coming from.

A 'traditional' Funeral in my 'Christian culture' is a combination of religious rites and celebration of the life the deceased has lived. Yes it is an occasion for the Clergy to preach to the gathering on the meaning and purpose of a Christian life and the promises of eternal life through Jesus Christ but it is also a day of remembrance for and reflection on the individual in the box. A day of both stress and comfort for the deceased family and friends who have the right to participate in farewelling their loved one.

Myself - I've told my heirs and successors to keep my funeral simple and personal with a traditional hymn and a favourite contemporary song - indeed I've left a few basic instructions in writing. Not that I'm suffering some dreadful illness or expecting to keel over anytime soon. However none of us know when deaths cold touch we shall feel. Best be prepared - naturally as well as spiritually.
Posted by divine_msn, Saturday, 15 March 2014 12:00:26 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Squeers,

"...we're just compost..."

Such a bare reality won't cut it for most humans - who above all seek "meaning" in their encounter with life and death.

Here's scientist, Loren Eiseley, eulogizing a dead dog he encountered on a seashore:

""...On the edge of the littered beach beyond the port I had come upon a dead dog wrapped in burlap, obviously buried at sea and drifted in by the waves. The dog was little more than a skeleton but still articulated, one delicate paw bony paw laid gracefully--as though its owner merely slept, and would presently awaken--across a stone at the water's edge. Around his throat was a waterlogged black strap that showed that he had once belonged to someone. This dog was a mongrel whose life had been spent among the island fishermen....He had romped briefly on shores like this of which he had been returned by an indifferent sea.
I stepped back a little hesitantly from the smell of death, but still I paused reluctantly. Why, in this cove littered with tin cans, bottles and cast of garments, did I find it difficult to turn away? Because, the thought finally came to me, this particular tattered garment had once lived. Scenes of the living sea that would never in all eternity recur again had streamed through the sockets of those vanished eyes. The dog was young...it was of that type of loving creature who had gamboled happily about the legs of men and striven to partake of their endeavours.
Someone had seen crudely to his sea burial, but not well enough to prevent his lying now where came everything abandoned. Nevertheless, vast natural forces had intervened to clothe him with a pathetic dignity. The tide had brought him quietly at night and placed what remained of him asleep on the stones..."

Just a dead dog...much more when adorned with human perception, embellished with meaning.

Einstein said:
"It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure."
Posted by Poirot, Saturday, 15 March 2014 1:17:41 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
.

We buried old Bob where the bloodwoods wave
At the foot of the Eaglehawk;
We fashioned a cross on the old man's grave,
For fear that his ghost might walk;
We carved his name on a bloodwood tree,
With the date of his sad decease,
And in place of "Died from effects of spree",
We wrote "May he rest in peace".

For Bob was known on the Overland,
A regular old bush wag,
Tramping along in the dust and sand,
Humping his well-worn swag.
He would camp for days in the river-bed,
And loiter and "fish for whales".
"I'm into the swagman's yard," he said,
"And I never shall find the rails."

But he spoke in a cultured voice and low --
"I fancy they've "sent the route";
I once was an army man, you know,
Though now I'm a drunken brute;
But bury me out where the bloodwoods wave,
And if ever you're fairly stuck,
Just take and shovel me out of the grave
And, maybe, I'll bring you luck.

"For I've always heard --" here his voice fell weak,
His strength was well-nigh sped,
He gasped and struggled and tried to speak,
Then fell in a moment -- dead.
Thus ended a wasted life and hard,
Of energies misapplied --
Old Bob was out of the "swagman's yard"
And over the Great Divide.

The drought came down on the field and flock,
And never a raindrop fell,
Though the tortured moans of the starving stock
Might soften a fiend from hell.
And we thought of the hint that the swagman gave
When he went to the Great Unseen --
We shovelled the skeleton out of the grave
To see what his hint might mean.

We dug where the cross and the grave posts were,
We shovelled away the mould,
When sudden a vein of quartz lay bare
All gleaming with yellow gold.
'Twas a reef with never a fault nor baulk
That ran from the range's crest,
And the richest mine on the Eaglehawk
Is known as "The Swagman's Rest".

(Snowy River, 20 October 1895)

.
Posted by Banjo Paterson, Saturday, 15 March 2014 2:04:57 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
peter/pass-on to peter2/3..its..MASS-BURIAL*..time1/WORKDAY..TO GET/IT..RIGHT.
http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2014/03/the-unstable-alliance-of-nationalists-and-mainly-jewish-oligarchs-in-the-ukraine/
This..much said,..`one must..surely ask..why it is/[that the Jewish community..is supporting the neo-Nazis rise.
http://whatreallyhappened.com/podcasts/hourtitle2.m3u

Why is it that the presence of Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) soldiers who led rebel groups has not been questioned and addressed? Furthermore, why have Jewish leaders voiced support for the coup and its leaders?
http://www.veteransnewsnow.com/2014/03/14/ukraine-americas-midas-touch-again/
Mrs. Van Hyning,..I am surprised at your surprise...You are a student of history --..and you know that both the Borgias and the Mediciis are Jewish families of Italy.

Surely you know that there have been Popes from both of these house. Perhaps it will surprise you to know that we have had 20 Jewish Popes, and when you have sufficient time,..which may coincide with my free time,..I can show you these names and dates...You will learn from these that..:..

*The crimes committed in the name of the Catholic Church were under Jewish Popes. The leaders of the inquisition was one : De Torquemada, a Jew." --From an article in 'Woman's Voice', November 25, 1953.

AND..HERE IS MY..LATEST/PEACE-PLAN
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=16038&page=0

TO PREVENT..the fact/red/FLAG..OF Could Diego Garcia..have been the target of a terrorist plot....when..the Poop hITS/THE FAN..using this plane?
http://whatreallyhappened.com/
Could you imagine..a US naval base..having to choose whether to shoot down a fully-loaded civilian airliner..out of the sky?...There was a lot of discussion about how there were no “rich targets” in that area.

Diego Garcia...is one such...rich target.[PEAL HARBOUR..]
http://rss.infowars.com/20140314_Fri_Alex.mp3
The honest man must be a perpetual renegade, the life of an honest man a perpetual infidelity...For the man who wishes to remain faithful to truth must make himself perpetually unfaithful to all the continual, successive, indefatigable renascent errors." -- Charles Peguy
http://sabbah.biz/mt/?p=20011
The rapid growth of the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) movement is a direct result of Western politicians like Cameron and Hague flunking their duty to uphold international law, reject Israel's exceptionalism and punish its crimes. BDS will no doubt apply the solvent to unglue Cameron's unholy alliance. It will increasingly hurt the evil regime and those who support it. And it will be their funeral.
http://sabbah.biz/mt/?p=20022
http://www.gerhard-wisnewski.de/Multilingual/english/War-on-15-March.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pl2zeCKVSlQ
Posted by one under god, Saturday, 15 March 2014 12:02:27 PM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Squeers, why would Christians object to their physical remains becoming blood and bone? They will become part of the natural world anyway, however they are disposed of, their atoms eventually being incorporated into millions of living organisms.

You seem to have a warped notion of atheists - not believing in gods or an afterlife doesn't mean we are not saddened by the loss of a friend or family member and can't welcome the opportunity to gather and remember their life. This is perhaps even more important for atheists than theists, as we have no expectation of ever meeting the deceased again.
Posted by Candide, Saturday, 15 March 2014 12:08:27 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
It is easier to rant about religion or the lack of it than address our difficulty in coping with death. Most people are very uncomfortable at a funeral. As well, there are the 'significant' persons one hasn't bothered be in contact with (and nor they with you) and the people (who are they?) who just show up.

What interests me is the growing trend to seek solace from strangers on the Net. What is going on there?

If my relatives and friends can cope with it and I will have no final say in the matter, I don't want a funeral. I would be most happy with my remains being quietly taken away, placed in a cardboard box, cremated and the ashes scattered somewhere other than in the crematorium waste bin. If my relatives and friends want to get together later as they choose that is fine by me. We need to resolve things while we are alive.

< [the End Of The Film]

Lady Presenter: Well, that's the end of the film. Now, here's the meaning of life.

[Receives an envelope]

Lady Presenter: Thank you, Brigitte.

[Opens envelope, reads what's inside]

Lady Presenter: M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations....>

The Meaning of Life (1983)
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0085959/quotes
Posted by onthebeach, Saturday, 15 March 2014 1:21:01 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Ojnab,
being turned into ash is denying the Earth your bodily nutrients, but why scatter your ashes symbolically--symbolically of what?

A lovely passage, Poirot, that points to our deep sense of loss, while "the beautiful" is as mysterious as reason. Reason is unremarkable in its formulaic practice--scientific method; it's the qualitative, discriminating register, akin to aesthetic appreciation or sorrow, which underwrites empiricism, that's mysterious--which has been retroactively devalued since Kant et al. Today we take reason for granted as just a given, while aesthetics, sorrow and angst are dismissed by atheists as cultural constructs.
Einstein appreciated the mystery of imagination, which informed his achievements far more than method.

Candide,
I'm an atheist myself, or at least an agnostic.
I don't have any sense of atheists; it's just a word with no common denominator, apart perhaps from a common insistence that all phenomena must comply with physical law as we conceive it, or conceive it must be.
I'm intrigued by the "quality" of perception, of temporality and our "felt" preoccupations with beauty, goodness, fascination, sorrow etc., as well as their opposites. The universe is mysterious enough for me to accommodate infinite possibility, and that mystery only comprises what our senses permit us to appreciate. Given that wonderful as they are our brute senses are inadequate to appreciating phenomena intrinsically, what of possibilities they don't register at all?
The senses I have of alternative funerals and weddings are generally, hyperbole, hypocrisy and tackiness--not that I'm a fan of the religious versions.
Posted by Squeers, Saturday, 15 March 2014 1:32:04 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Squeers, I must be lucky, the Celebration services I've been to have been good ones. As to scattering ashes, we did it with my parents because it was important to fulfil a promise we had made. We also like knowing that the last physical bit of them is somewhere that was very special to them. On a practical level, a box of cremated remains is not something I really want in my cupboard and I draw the line at putting them in the bin.
Posted by Candide, Saturday, 15 March 2014 2:37:25 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
it seems worth noting..HOW CANDICE DRAWS THE LINE AT RUBBISH BIN
AND ONJAB...WITH A RITUAL FOR WHAT AS SQUEERS PUT IT SO SUCCINCTLY
[there must be something..disrespect..propriatrY..MAKING A MEMORY THAT ALLOWS OUR SOUL TO FEEL EASY[BECAUSE THE DEPARTED WONT BE PUTTING OUT THE rejected 'vibe'?

why is there respect for the dead[ON THE PERSONAL LEVEL]
I SEE PILES OF DEAD KILLED IN WARS..100,000..in single days
dead and dying every where[bring out your dead]..i seE the flue eppidenics..the small POX MILLIONS....dead..the unburIED..OR BURied in haste/for convenIENCE.FOR HEALTH REASON

and soon us poisenEd by the minions of satan..[UNLESS THE VATI-CAN BANKERS COME ALONG AND FIX THINGS..IE [BAil..out..the very ursurors planning our genocides]..ut]..

THE good fathers/heavenly MONEY..IS PAYABLE IN SEEDS FROM THE TREE OF LIFE...MONEY YOU CAN EAT[SEE REV 22;2]..THE LEAVES..=NOTES/MONEY..THE SEEDS ARE COIN/PROMISING SEED..SEED YOU CAN REFINE INTO 38.097 DIFFERENT FRUITS

[DOING ANYTHIng from keeping the living alive..to paying out in assured value..repair insurance feeding healing..preserving..any contracted terms hurting the living..but due in full AS AN HONORARIUM TO THE DEAD.

we are all the mortal living heirs [children of the father]..
co heirs of everything..gods gift is seed money..TO AVERT ARMOGEDDON..SUN TREATY..[see wikiseed/wikigeld..

we comE TO SAVE THE URURORS BEFORE THEY PANNIC AND BEGIN WWW [WORLD-Wide-war..to HIDE PROOF OF THEIR ONGOING TREASONS..BY THE DISEASE/WAR PESTULANCE ETC..EVEN NOW[the endtIME ONE/NUKES..[A NICE CLEAN ENDING..FOR US SO OBSESSED WITH OUR MORTAL BODY IMAGE..WE REFUSE TO LET..OUR MORTAL FLESH DIE

ANYHOW TO AVERT ARMOGEDDON..YOU PETER..MUST PULL OUT THE JOKER CARD
pay ALL DEBTS IN FULL/WE TAKE YOUR COIN/OVER PRINT IT as paYABLE IN WIKISEEDD..MONEY You can eat,,from the goldren horn of plenty[wrought out of the sacrifiCE..BY THE FORBeasrance of tHE HOUSES OF LEVI AND ISsiah]

AHH MEN..DO THE WATCHMEN HEAR
AWAKE TOO LATE....WHAT NEWS GREATER THAN WORLD WIDE ARMOGEDDON
BUT PEACE HAS COME..AND GODS children..are PAYING..for all of IT IN CASH.
Posted by one under god, Saturday, 15 March 2014 4:31:34 PM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Candide, I am confused with your answers, my ashes to be scattered and blowing with the wind for some reason was not to your liking, but in your next writing you are talking about your parents or grand parents being scattered.
Nice to see Banjo Paterson (ojnaB) the poem of our forebear, both yours and mine.
Posted by Ojnab, Saturday, 15 March 2014 5:47:33 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Well, as we run out of space for cemeteries ashes seem to be the best option.
The awful funeral circus acts nothing short of idiotic now. Everyone who dies now was a great person & some great hero or some other great. It really is nothing but a circus now.
Posted by individual, Saturday, 15 March 2014 7:16:05 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Onjab, I didn't say anything about ashes blowing in the wind or comment on your post. I think everyone should have whatever funeral they and their family want, and the same applies to disposing of remains. Except they're not ashes but crushed bone and won't blow in the wind. More like gravel.
Posted by Candide, Saturday, 15 March 2014 10:46:53 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
I too have thrown off the shackles, lifted the veil of ignorance and seen the light. I had spent most of my life not knowing whether there was a god or not. Some of my best friends were priests and still are but they could not help me solve the problem.

It was not until I realised I was asking the wrong question that I found the answer. Instead of “Is there a god or not?”. I finally asked “how did the question of god arise?”. It then became “who had the idea there might be a god?” and “why?”. After that it was all smooth sailing. Everything became clear.

It was not the first time in my life that I realised I had reinvented the wheel, in this instance simply by discovering that “I couldn’t see the solution because I couldn’t see the problem”. I could see I was getting the wrong answers but I could not see that I had been asking the wrong questions. As Jonas Salk (the inventor of the polio vaccine) observed "What people think of as the moment of discovery is really the discovery of the question" .

I take comfort in the thought that "The uncreative mind can spot wrong answers, but it takes a very creative mind to spot wrong questions" ( Antony Jay).

Having solved the god conundrum has in no way diminished my sense of awe and transcendence in observing the pursuit of perfection in the construction of places of worship and other forms of art and craftmanship such as sacred music, tainted glass, paintings, woven fabrics, sculptures, icons, mosaics etc., inspired by the sense of the divine in human creation and imagination.

In my view, churches, cathedrals, temples, mosques and other superb masterpieces of human craftsmanship and architecture, as well as inspirational sites of nature (such as "The Swagman's Rest" on the bed of the Snowy River, lined with bloodwood trees) are excellent venues for funerals.

My sense of the aesthetic has been comforted and is so much keener now that the veil of ignorance has been lifted.

.
Posted by Banjo Paterson, Sunday, 16 March 2014 12:01:09 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Banjo Patterson,

Thanks for an impressive, and certainly sincere, way describing your abandonment of what the French philosopher Paul Ricoeur calls la première naïveté. You certainly deserve to have your sense of the aesthetic comforted, although a few of us do not stop there, but look for the (intellectually) more rewarding stage Ricoeur calls la deuxième naïveté (c.f. http://www.exploring-spiritual-development.com/Paul-Ricoeur.html).
Posted by George, Sunday, 16 March 2014 1:29:56 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Thank you George for this beautiful reference!

I think that première naïveté is becoming quite rare in Australia - soon to be declared an endangered species, yet it doesn't stop atheists from attacking all religion indiscriminately.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Sunday, 16 March 2014 2:21:13 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Yuyutsu,

There is an Eastern parallel to Riceur's naiveté's:

“before you study Zen, mountains are mountains and rivers are rivers; while you are studying Zen, mountains are no longer mountains and rivers are no longer rivers; but once you have had enlightenment, mountains are once again mountains and rivers again rivers”

which I sometimes "westernise" as

“before you study philosophy (of science and of religion), the concepts and propositions of your Christian beliefs have absolute validity; while you are studying philosophy (of science and of religion), the concepts and propositions of Christian beliefs are loosing their validity; but once you have had enlightenment through philosophy, they regain their validity as symbols modelling reality underlying your faith”.
Posted by George, Sunday, 16 March 2014 3:33:51 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Thank you BP and George for some thought-provoking Sunday morning reading.
Posted by Candide, Sunday, 16 March 2014 6:13:53 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
.

Dear George,

.

It’s nice to hear from you once again.

As far as I can recall, at no point in my life did I ever accept the idea that the existence or non-existence of a god was a question of belief or faith. I was never a “believer”, or a member of the “faithful” as postulated by Paul Ricoeur in his “naïveté” theory. In my mind, even as a very young child, I always considered that either there was a god or there was not, whether I believed it or not. I saw no need for me to believe or not believe. That was irrelevant. All I needed to know was whether there was a god or not.

It seemed to me that there was no question more important in life than that. I could not understand why everybody was so casual about it, why mankind had not mobilised all its resources in order to find out. Nobody seemed to be taking the matter seriously, even those who professed to believe in the existence of a god. How could anybody go about their mundane, daily lives knowing there was a god somewhere of whom he had absolutely no knowledge nor contact ?

My incomprehension increased as I grew older and became conscious of all the horrors, pain and suffering and intolerable injustice in the world.

So, instead of “is there a god or not?”, I finally asked “how did the question of god arise?", "who had the idea there might be a god?" and "why?". Those were the questions which took me back through the long historical development from man-conceived, imaginary, animist gods to monotheism and the sacrificial Jesus until I arrived at the only possible logical conclusion, which became my firm conviction - beyond all reasonable doubt - that there is no god.

I have always been left to find my own way in life – primary school education – no father – shop assistant mother – poor family – raised in the Queensland outback – no guidance – apart from that ... no constraints.

.
Posted by Banjo Paterson, Sunday, 16 March 2014 6:25:20 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
rewrote george quotE....“before you study Zen,..mountains are mountains >>forming rivlets/MEANS..<<and rivers are rivers;>>FORMING Tao[pathS]/WAYS..and you..is just you/one/alone.

<<..while..you are studying Zen,the WAY TAO..SEEMS Of more importance mountains..are no longer mountains Judged..as nice NOR MEAn..and rivers..are no longer ways..but SIMPLY rivers;..NOT PATHS OF lost souls.

but..once you have..had/the..enlightenment,..mountains are once again mountains..and rivers again rivers”..BUT NOW..YOU SEE the hidden/UNSEEN WAYS ANS PATHS..Where they lead to and when we can GO TO..

THE UNTOLD LIVING...EVEN ON A SEEMINGLY BARREN MOUNTAIN TOP..or pebbled stream full of..living/troUT EGGS..ANd dragon flies.and lilly ponDS SWAMPS AND BU.gs sWEAT BLOOD love/life/logic,..biRTH REBIRTH TRANSMUTATION..MORE slime/Guts chance CHANGE..blOOD/MUCK..And gore..

so much..we are now..aware on..THE UNSSEN/LIFE..EVEN..IN THE SHADOW
..so much more..than the..material mind..OR..MORTAL-EYE alone..can see

many/MINDS EYES..INSTANTLY..KNOWING..A TREE..ON A MOUNTAIN HOLDS INFINITE LIFE..THAT INFINITE TREES..HOLD UNTOLD LIFE..THAT A SIMPLE BADGER..in the Forrest..HOLDS IiFE UNLIMITED WITHIN AND WITHOUT..THAT ITS LIVING FORAGES..as THE MEANS..[taoOF SURVIVAL IN ITS OWN [TAO]..WAY..even ticks have mites...and mites have toes

sorry..i do /it clumsy..the pictures.in my minds eye were more succinct..its like the russion dolls/nesting together..one truth within an other truth..within another add infinitum/joined-in WITH YESTERDAY WALKING TEACHING..OF LIFE WITHIN LIFE WITHIN LIFE

i was shown..how cremation..of the/one..is..yet mass murder..but..is slow death..[upona dying corpse..better karmicl..?..[we]..are living bodies..sustaining trillions of.'other';.living precociousness BEINGS..[WITHIN AND WITHOUT]..A SINGLE DEATH/BY..Dying thUS LEADS..to untold dEATHS..AS..THE OTHER..LIFE forces slowly EBB AWAY[DIE]..EACH OF THESE Living beings surviving ON OUR FLESH AND BLOOD/BODY

EACH HAVE..astral/expression/RADIATIONS..AND
AFTER DEATH MANY.REMAIN TO CLOUD UP..OUR SOUL BODY...as we/our being..is all/they..know.

ps..ASHES ARE NOT JUST...ALL the crushed/remaining whole BONES..tHERE IS lots of dust..SCATTER them..with THy BACK TO THE WIND..NOT OFF A WHARF..Where the updRAFT CAN Blow..the dust into your lungs/eyes haIR CLOTHING

the safest way is to tip..them..[for/life..is many/.while standing iN THE STREAM/INCHES ABOVE..THE Water..THEn ignore the red colors..that mean the marrowe..still had live blood/virus etc[PRE crushing..Thus..be ware of virus..in the 'dust'..THE red colour means there was still..living blood in the 'DUST'..WHO CAN YOU TRUST?..[GOD ALONE]..AND CERTAINLY..NOT..THE EGO-BEAst's..oF ANY*self.
Posted by one under god, Sunday, 16 March 2014 6:52:59 AM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Banjo Paterson,

"Having solved the god conundrum has in no way diminished my sense of awe and transcendence in observing the pursuit of perfection in the construction of places of worship and other forms of art and craftmanship such as sacred music, tainted glass, paintings, woven fabrics, sculptures, icons, mosaics etc., inspired by the sense of the divine in human creation and imagination.

In my view, churches, cathedrals, temples, mosques and other superb masterpieces of human craftsmanship and architecture..."

How right you are. My favourite things to draw are cathedrals and such like. There is a harmony in their architecture which mirrors that of nature. The patterns we see in nature and digest subliminally are reproduced for us in architecture f this kind. Which is why we respond as we do - and also why we don't feel a similar response to the brutal architecture of a multi-storey concrete car park.

Prince Charles put it like this in his book "Harmony":

"If people are encouraged to immerse themselves in Nature's grammar and geometry they are often led to acquire some remarkably deep philosophical insights."
Posted by Poirot, Sunday, 16 March 2014 8:37:21 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear Banjo,

Thanks again for the sincere words. So at no point in your life were you in a state that Ricoeur calls la première naïveté, which roughly corresponds to what all children brought up e.g. as Christians go through (and some people keep on going through throughout their adult life). Sorry for misunderstanding your search for “a god”. Educated 21st century Christians would not expect to find “a god somewhere” like you can find a remote galaxy or an as yet uncontacted tribe. So in this sense we are on the same wavelength.

God that contemporary educated Christians believe in is something quite different, and also attempts to answer the question you rise have kept on changing from prehistoric times to the present, from culture to culture (well, I am not an anthropologist). Something like the physical world (cosmos, universe/multiverse), that we all believe in (and use quantum physics and gravitation theory to explain) is something quite different from what our ancestors a few centuries ago understood by the (physical) world.

Neither of the two differences are easily explained in a few words.
Posted by George, Sunday, 16 March 2014 8:40:03 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Candied blowing in the wind is just another euthanism such as "at rest, now at peace, " and so on, being a persons imagination at the time of someone's death,sometimes on this site too many take what is said as real and not reading more into what is trying to be said, one doesn't care if the ashes, dust, or whatever are picked up by a lawnmower when scattered or anything else! or kept in a cupboard, it really is all rubbish, please do not analize the word rubbish.
Posted by Ojnab, Sunday, 16 March 2014 9:34:21 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
"That there is no God" must be what all Banjo Paterson's think. bravo.
Posted by Ojnab, Sunday, 16 March 2014 9:41:30 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
To Peter Sellick...advice, if I may...if you use Jesus in a sentence...his relationship to the Holy Trinity must be implicit and message of your sentence must reflect it...father son holyspirit...or in common language father_god the singular and eternal...son_god on earth in physical form, holyghost_intelligent energy that's god in all of us intertwined with our own soul...I believe this way you'll disconnect yourself from commercial churches and their blab seeking to create mindless cash cow for their benefit...and less flack from readers...
To the question does god exist? I found that people approach it two different extremes and everything inbetween...pure faith to pure logic...both lead to no and yes...hahah ya I know...
Personally...my correct question...'why this God'...this initiates immediate dialogue with the source(yep...power of prayer) or logic of if I had supreme ability to convert pure energy into functional thinking energy+matter intermix what will I do and why would I...
sam
To my funeral...please feed me to the fishes...I've found joy and solace in the water...and waters is everywhere to everybody...so I may still be connects to the whole
Posted by Sam said, Sunday, 16 March 2014 10:02:38 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
But, George, if the 'God that contemporary educated Christians believe in is something quite different', then by what right do you call yourselves 'Christians'? If you don't believe in, say, the Nicene Creed, then I don't see that you have any more right to call yourself 'Christian' than Sikhs or Buddhists do. As far as I can tell, your 'contemporary educated Christians' are merely stuck in a transitional phase, unable to stomach the convoluted nonsense of traditional beliefs but unwilling to grasp the nettle of atheism; so you say 'God' when you mean 'physics', and 'Heaven' when you mean 'happiness'. But at least 90% of Western Christians have enough common sense to realise that if you are going to give up the Big Daddy in the sky you might as well go all the way.
Posted by Jon J, Sunday, 16 March 2014 1:10:16 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear Jon,

A Christian is a follower of Christ.
That has nothing to do with belief,
but rather in the willingness to go on the cross, or endure equivalent pains as necessary, for the love of others.
This is Jesus' TradeMark, not the Nicean creed.

If you successfully make it to become a Christian,
then you may also call yourself a Sikh or a Buddhist,
and vice versa.

We all scale the same mountain from different angles.
On the top of this mountain is unselfishness.
Once there is no selfishness, nothing separates us from God.

If you feel more inspired to call God 'physics', then so be it,
but can Physics inspire you to give up your selfishness?
If your heaven is happiness, then would you give it up for the love of others in the name of Physics?
A true Christian would give up heaven for the love of others, which is ultimately the same as the love of God.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Sunday, 16 March 2014 1:57:33 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Yuyutsu: 'unselfishness'? Really, is that all? It's a bit of a negative virtue, don't you think? Certainly not worth climbing a mountain for. Maybe a molehill. In fact, it sounds like sour grapes to me: "I may not be clever, or brave, or sexually attractive, but gee, I'm unselfish!" I would trade it for any of the others in a heartbeat.

But Christianity clearly has to do with belief; that's why only people with certain beliefs call themselves Christian. If you want to define it otherwise you'll have to take it up with the various established churches. While you're at it you can check with the Muslims whether they also consider themselves to be climbing the mountain of 'unselfishness'. My impression is that their proclaimed goals are quite otherwise.

Would I give up happiness for the love of others? Only if their condition was making me unhappy -- in which case I wouldn't be giving up happiness, would I? What I'd much rather do, however, is to plan and work for a world in which NOBODY has to suffer, rather than picking out scapegoats for religious-style glorification. Can't we get past this theological obsession with pain?
Posted by Jon J, Sunday, 16 March 2014 6:44:07 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Well said, JonJ.

..Or, not to put too fine a point on it, Yuyutsu, what a load of sanctimonious crap!
Posted by Squeers, Sunday, 16 March 2014 6:48:12 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
I LIKED IT..only in hindsight noting the sufferance/as an issue to do with enduring injurious PAIN..OFTEN NEEDLESSLY... god is not PLEASED WITH BLOOD SACRIFICE PAIN ETC..GOD NEEDS NO MODULATOR BETWEEN him and his creation..[god as separate of the holy spirit]..yet god and the hoy SPIRIT..IS LIKE JESUS AND GOD..TO SEE ONE IS TO SEE THE OTHER

ITS THE OTHER/External of the self..that the inner holy sporit sustains to live and god sustains THE MEANS..LIGHT SUSTAINING LIFE/ONCE WE CLEARLY SEE..good in everyone..WE ARE THERE

THAT DON'T MEAN IT MEAns a lot but a lot of suffering to get THERE IF YOUR SEIkE MUSLIM HINDI OR XTIAN..and other bORN IN Sufferance..like jews/flagILATORS INQUISITORS ETC..AND WEAK WILLED ATHEISTS..[WHAT IS SALT THAT HAS LOST ITS PASSION ?

ANYHOW IM WORRIED ABOUT HOW MUCH I AGREED INITIALLY/automatically with the SUFFERING//[silent suffering OF COURSE/Private self flagellation as if were being punished/or punishing OUR SELF..FOR WHAT?

it must be the AUTOMATIC SELF FULFILLMENT..BY SELF DEBASEMENT/DEFILEMENT..of external SADISTIC DEMONIC Sufferance side of me..echoing within..[the human eGo/APE BEAST SIDE INSIDE OF ME..AND OF COURSE THE PORK ON me fork...THAT Reads what is writteN AND GOES SNORK..[peal before swine/are whINE DUllEst the brightest gem]

its all pretty impressive writing..really..[ok not talking of dead
mor of us all being born again/long before the ritual[many days too late/the spirit needs guidance BEFORE CROSSING OVER/OR soon after..thats when our thoughts can hELP THEM

NOt all head for the light..many emereGE THE DARKness..in due time
but first need redeem other..so selfishness CAN Get you into hell/just as SELFLESSNESS CAN HELP YOU GET OUT..[ONLY BY HELPING other].

WE FALL INTO HELL ALONE..WE ONLY rISE UP..OUT OF IT WITH OTHER.
Posted by one under god, Sunday, 16 March 2014 7:24:05 PM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear Jon,

Pain is not required - only the preparedness to endure it if required.

All suffering is ultimately caused by selfishness, so getting rid of selfishness is not a question of virtue or a badge to collect, but of whether or not you want to continue suffering. Physical pain may still occur in the course of nature, but without selfishness it is not experienced as suffering.

Churches? Why should they have any privilege to tell who is Christian and who isn't? Besides, why would it matter whether one CALLS themselves a Christian or not - surely what matters more is whether they ARE Christian or not!

Yes, Christianity involves belief as one of its religious techniques. Belief does help some people, but is not really a requirement for becoming a Christian.

Muslims? Some of them, especially Sufis, do aspire for unselfishness. The others, I wouldn't bother calling "Muslims", because Islam comes from the word "Salaam" = peace. The pursuit of unselfishness and the pursuit of peace are none but climbing the same mountain from two directions. Only those who reach the top, who lose all selfishness, attain peace and only those who attain peace lose their selfishness. It's ultimately the same.

You are not likely to sacrifice your happiness for the sake of others until you realise that they are not others - that since you are God and they are God, you are in fact the same!

A world where nobody suffers is like a school without lessons: why would such a world be needed in the first place?

Dear Squeers,

I was not writing the above for you.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Sunday, 16 March 2014 7:25:35 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Blessed are you...Yusutsu...You see the journey's end clearly...and if you can...if you may elaborate for all the reciprocal relationship between suffering unselfishness and result called peace...
sam
Squeezers this's for you...please, try unselfishness or your interpretation of it, without having any expectation and refusing any gratitude but simply as your duty arising from fact that you exist...for a week... If that works for you the let your curiosity run for a month...a year and who knows eh
Posted by Sam said, Sunday, 16 March 2014 7:46:53 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
"It is a time in which the gospel is to be preached directly into the reality of death"

Whilst I doubt that the gospel Sels refers to is the same as the one I've too often heard preached on such occasions the title "The awful funeral" fits so well for the vile act of using the death of a loved one as an opportunity to preach a christian gospel to a largely captive audience while some are in a very vulnerable state.

Not even sure if the term awful goes far enough to describe it.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Sunday, 16 March 2014 8:19:06 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Thanks Sam, I'm sure that's very deep..
In fact I don't get it..
..Which makes it all the more meaningful!
Posted by Squeers, Sunday, 16 March 2014 8:40:16 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Jon J,

>>by what right do you call yourselves 'Christians’?<<

By the same right a 21st century mathematician, physicist, biologist etc calls himself/herself a mathematician, physicist, biologist etc although his/her understanding of mathematics, physics, biology etc is quite different from that of the correspondingly named specialist in, say, the 17th century, or a non-specialist - even scientifically uneducated - contemporary.

Anyhow, which authority, grants these rights to call oneself this or that? I do not care whether people who have very little understanding of mathematics grant me the right or not to call myself a mathematician. The same with Christian.

>>you say 'God' when you mean 'physics', and 'Heaven' when you mean 'happiness’.<<

Imagine the reaction I would get here if a claimed that when an atheist says something, he/she actually means something entirely different!

Ridiculing other people’s worldviews might make you feel snug but hardly helps you to understand the object of your ridicule.
Posted by George, Sunday, 16 March 2014 9:31:42 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
THE THOUGHT OCCURED..RE THE SYMBOL/somnambulism-embolism..
Inherent,..in [FUN-ETHEREAL]..FUNERALS..you know the sign..by desIGN

http://www.prisonplanet.com/the-strange-fear-of-symbols.html

There are people who will argue that some symbols have “inherent meaning.” As if “the universe” sits around and writes down descriptions in a book, which is irrefutable.

Even if this were true, why do people have to accept those meanings?

Some symbols point to things that actually exist. Other symbols are fabricated with the intent of referring to fictions as if they were real. In both cases, the symbols are cooked and plumped up with meanings to impart a reaction.

I suppose God is the most widespread symbol on Earth. But instead of standing back and allowing the individual to decide what, if anything, it means to him, priest classes move in and organize religions to tell their stories, to embellish and codify the meaning of that symbol. And then to fight and kill to defend it.

Here is the symbol-maker’s proposition: “I’ll give you a symbol and tell you what it means and what it refers to. Then I want you to accept it, yes, but also to imbue it with feeling and awe and power. Give that power to the symbol. Make that investment. It’s your duty. Don’t vary or quibble.”

This is how humans are made into ciphers. This is mind control.

This post originally appeared at www.nomorefakenews.com
Posted by one under god, Monday, 17 March 2014 8:09:05 AM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
.

What does it take to be a Christian ?

.

I was circumcised and baptised shortly after birth. At the age of ten, I was enrolled into catechism classes, confessed my sins and received the sacrament of confirmation. The circumcision took place at the bush hospital, the rest in what was then called the Church of England in Australia.

I understand that these initiation rites label me as a Christian.

As Christianity has been doing fine for the past 2000 years, despite the fact that there is no god, I see no reason why my becoming aware of the fact that there is no god should change anything, either for Christianity or for me. My relation with Christianity has never been based on belief or faith but rather on curiosity and interest and a desire to get to know the truth. I consider myself no less Christian now than I was before (presuming I was, indeed, Christian).

It is interesting to note that according to the latest Harris poll in the US, only 54% of Americans are “absolutely certain” there is a god (down 12 percentage points from 2003 testing). While 68% indicate being either absolutely or somewhat certain that there is a God.

I interpret this to mean that the “possibility” of a god is important to people, even though there is no god.

As regards my current status, my guess is that I am still labelled as a Christian but I should welcome the considered opinion of anyone who wishes to express one. Personally, if I have any choice in the matter, I should prefer to avoid being labelled an “atheist” - simply because I find it a bit silly for anyone to define himself in relation to something (a god) which does not exist.

"Just a very ordinary person" would suit me fine.

.
Posted by Banjo Paterson, Monday, 17 March 2014 9:03:57 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
The Light came into the world but men still love the darkness. No wonder most choose moral relativism and are foolish enough to deny their Creator. You still can,t find teachings any more profound or practical as that of th e Lord Jesus Christ.
Posted by runner, Monday, 17 March 2014 9:47:45 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear Banjo,

I agree that nobody should be labeled “atheist” if he/she does not like it. The same with Christian, except that there is a formal definition of a Christian as a baptised person, which does not say anything about that person’s worldview. A better definition of a Christian, and perhaps also atheist, is according to what the person himself/herself would put down in a census or poll.

>>I interpret this to mean that the “possibility” of a god is important to people, even though there is no god.<<

Of course, you are entitled to your interpretation, except for the formulation which assumes “the fact that there is no god”, although there is no universal consensus on that. It would sound fairer if it ended with “even though I am convinced (or the majority of us, scientists, Australians etc are convinced) that there is no god”. Otherwise you sound like a fundamentalist Christian who will present the “fact” that God exists as a prerequisite for all discussion.
Posted by George, Monday, 17 March 2014 10:08:04 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear Banjo,

<<What does it take to be a Christian?>>

To know thyself. Once you know that you are not separate from others, you will have no hesitation going on the cross if that's what it takes to help them.

The desire to have oneself labelled is unhealthy.

YOU ARE - then rejoice!
What else is there besides?

Just wake up and recognise thyself whom no label can match. You are the same you that you were before being baptised and circumcised. You were never anyone else, not even before your body was born nor after it dies - Thou art perfect and eternal.

At least you don't call yourself "atheist" = one who does not believe in himself!

You wish to be referred to as "Just a very ordinary person" - "Just a very ordinary God" would be more appropriate!

<<As Christianity has been doing fine for the past 2000 years,>>

Is that so? What about the crusades; burning of witches; murder of Galileo; ignorance of the masses; persecution of Jews and American Indians; corruption, secular power, wealth, wars and illegitimate children of popes; hatred and wars between Catholics and Protestants; the recent spate of paedophilia; and your own genital-mutilation to name a few? I don't think Jesus would be happy about that!

<<My relation with Christianity has never been based on belief or faith but rather on curiosity and interest and a desire to get to know the truth.>>

Now this is healthier than the attitudes of most people who call themselves "Christians". Keep on your curiosity, interest and desire to know the Truth, thus you will find God within you!

<<I consider myself no less Christian now than I was before (presuming I was, indeed, Christian).>>

Indeed, no church has a right to tell you what you are. Keep using your curiosity, interest and desire to know so you come to know thyself as the source of Christianity, as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit - come to know your own glory and power, come to know that your human limitations are but an illusion.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Monday, 17 March 2014 12:51:56 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
I find a lot of these OLO stupid, I am an Atheist and proud of it, it does not concern me day in and day out, and never think of it until I meet some overbearing religious person and inform them what I am, the way some write as though this is a cause for concern, I am happy being what I am, so please do not and I repeat do not go on with all the crap that is being written on here, we are what we all are, if you do not want to be an Atheist, that is your decision, makes no difference to me, if you want to put your bum in the air, makes no difference to me, if you want to believe in a God that their is no proof exists oe exits that is ok by me, so please stop analizing with crap everyone else's decision one way or the other, it is their decision not yours or mine.
Posted by Ojnab, Monday, 17 March 2014 5:24:14 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
>>I find a lot of these OLO stupid, … so please do not and I repeat do not go on with all the crap that is being written on here<<

That is an interesting insight into your thinking, although what is or is not “crap”, i.e. whether things you do not understand should or should not be posted here, is for Graham to decide, not us.
Posted by George, Monday, 17 March 2014 9:33:01 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
And so the conversation goes round and round in circles, it will for ever and ever, none of us know if a God exists or not, and never will, it is all in the grey matter in our head and what we want to believe or not believe, the grey matter in my head says that after death I will be nothing, just reduced to ashes ,that being the end of the sperm and egg that created me, and just being lucky I was a good swimmer, without that I would not be here and died with all the other sperm that never made it.,I do not believe I was helped to get the prize (life) at that final moment
Posted by Ojnab, Monday, 17 March 2014 10:26:42 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear Ojnab,

<<none of us know if a God exists or not, and never will>>

I think that question was already settled - God doesn't exist.

(if He existed, then He could create a rock so heavy that even He couldn't lift, but if He did so, then He wouldn't be able to lift that rock, which would mean that He is limited, thus not God, hence He cannot create such a rock, producing a logical conflict, hence the initial assumption as if He existed, was false)

Had God existed, then you would only want Him for the worldly gain you could get out of Him. You might pray to Him and worship Him, but only in order to get some silly heaven, health, wealth, long life or 72 virgins... that's barter, not love!

But once you understand the He doesn't exist, only then you can begin to love Him truly, humbly and unconditionally without expecting a reward.

It is up to you and to each one of us whether we serve existence or whether we serve God - we cannot serve two masters at once.

<<I was a good swimmer, without that I would not be here and died with all the other sperm that never made it>>

An interesting macho attitude: you consider yourself to be the sperm, but not the ovum, even though the ovum is much bigger!

It tells that you never gave serious consideration to the question "Who am I?".

<<the grey matter in my head says that after death I will be nothing, just reduced to ashes>>

That should not be a surprise if you consider what controls the grey matter in your head: it is your genes, which have perfected themselves over a billion years or so to survive and reproduce. What else would they possibly tell you? What fantastic claims and lies wouldn't they make in order to scare and convince you to keep them alive and multiplying?
Posted by Yuyutsu, Monday, 17 March 2014 11:32:40 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Yuyutsu,

The concept of an omnipotent God creating a rock He cannot lift is a self-referential paradox of which philosophy knows many, for instance Bertrand Russell’s, the set of all sets that are not members of themselves. Nevertheless, we do not dismiss the concept of set on which all of mathematics is built.
Posted by George, Tuesday, 18 March 2014 1:06:01 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear George,

Certainly, we don't discard the concept of set, nor forget about God: we just conclude that there is no such particular set which contains exactly those sets that are not members of themselves (in other words, that that which contains exactly those sets that are not members of themselves, though highly intuitive, is not a set in the way defined by the axioms of set-theory) and in the same way also conclude that God is not an object.

Any object exists (even if only within somebody's mind) and anything that exists is limited (if nothing else, by the fact that it cannot un-exist) - God is not limited, hence God is not an object.

In no way does this mean that we should stop loving and worshipping God - on the contrary: this understanding allows for a purer and intimate relationship with God that is not based on a primitive give-and-take bargain or otherwise rely on anything worldly. After all, worship of objects is idolatry!
Posted by Yuyutsu, Tuesday, 18 March 2014 2:00:37 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
.
 
Dear Runner,
 
.
 
Thank you for your opinion which is a pretty good photographic negative of my own findings – or should I put it the other way round ? Whichever way you look at it, where you see light, I see darkness and where you see darkness, I see light.

Perhaps it was the light you see which had been blocking my vision all these years. For better or for worse, I now see things in a different light.

You add: “ You still can’t find teachings any more profound or practical as that of the Lord Jesus Christ”.

I tend to agree with you, Runner, though much of our present day knowledge has been handed down to us from a number of other great minds - perhaps, individually, not quite as “profound or practical” as Jesus. Nevertheless, all have merit, despite the fact that they were all, indisputably, far more modest than he who claimed (perhaps, metaphorically) to be "the son of God" .
 
.
Posted by Banjo Paterson, Tuesday, 18 March 2014 2:34:01 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
.
 
Dear George,
 
.
 
As I am sure you will have understood, the « labelling » or « branding » (to employ the image of the “Christian flock”) , is certainly not, in my case, self-inflicted. I treasure what little freedom I have and avoid all forms of categorisation and gregarious behaviour.

Thank you for clarifying my position as a Christian both before and after “enlightenment”. I have lived with that label all my life and am happy to continue to do so, even though it was the result of my mother’s decision to have me baptised, not mine. Or rather, I should say: “because it was my beloved mother’s decision, I am willing to assume it to the end”.

As I mentioned in one of my previous posts, I came from a poor family. Both my parents and my elder brother are now dead and my only inheritance is me, so I might as well preserve that, label and all.

However, my wife and I preferred to leave our two children decide if they wished to be baptised or not, both of us taking care not to influence them in any way. That was something we had agreed on, well before my personal “enlightenment”.

Your point regarding my formulation: “the fact that there is no god”, is well taken. I am happy to adopt your suggestion: “even though I am convinced that there is no god”. It is obviously more respectful of all those who hold a different opinion.

Mine was a logical conclusion derived from the analysis of historical facts concerning the god theory. I found there was overwhelming factual support for the alternative theory that it was man who invented the concept of god as an explanation of the unknown and that this concept evolved and developed and was refined and adapted as mankind’s intellectual capacity and knowledge of the universe expanded and progressed.

Though, as you rightly point out:  “there is no universal consensus “ on this alternative theory, I consider it to be not only a “good” explanation but the “best explanation”.
 
.
 
 
Posted by Banjo Paterson, Tuesday, 18 March 2014 2:38:44 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
.

Dear Yuyutsu,

.

Thank you for your words of wisdom.

As I just wrote to George, I do not seek to be “labelled” or “branded”. Others do that for me, whether I like it or not.

I do not overestimate my bravery. Despite your recommendation for me to “know myself”, I doubt that I should be capable of “going on the cross” for anyone. Perhaps it’s because I know myself too well.

As regards your objections to my statement that “Christianity has been doing fine for the past 2000 years”, I‘m afraid it’s true, despite all the horrors it has committed over that period, many of which you have indicated. I put it down to “blind faith” which, regrettably, is a common characteristic of a surprisingly large number of people who profess to believe in god.

Despite your warm and enthusiastic recommendations, I am not inclined to consider myself as “the source of Christianity, as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit”. I have, no doubt, interiorised a certain number of moral principles if that is what you mean, but it is no more than that, and by no stretch of the imagination should I ever accept to consider myself to have become some sort of god.

You also invite me to consider that my “human limitations are but an illusion”. I prefer to consider them as a reality but, possibly, surpassable, theoretically, under certain conditions.

Your intentions are very noble, Yuyutsu, and I am grateful to you for your interest and kind recommendations.

.

Dear Ojnab,

.

You have every right to be proud of your atheism. In my opinion , you are on the right track and that is what is most important.

All the rest (method, language, expression, diplomacy, politeness, tact, kindness, etc.) is secondary and, hopefully, can be improved – if ever you feel so inclined.

.
Posted by Banjo Paterson, Tuesday, 18 March 2014 3:57:08 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear Banjo,

Nobody likes labelling or categorisation if it means stereotyping, however in some context you would like to know whether a person is e.g. Australian or Chinese and to avoid confusion one should also clarify which definition one has in mind, in this case whether citizenship or ethnicity (somebody could be an Australian citizen of Chinese ethnicity).

In certain discussions it might be relevant to know whether a person sees himself/herself as e.g. a Christian, or an atheist, (or something else) in spite of the fact that there is a wide variety of both.

Thanks again for the insight into your private life. Many people leave it to their children to decide whether they want to be baptised until they grow up, although I think it is hard for them to exclude their parents’ influence from the many that will lead to their decision.

Today the majority of atheists are still “cultural Christians” (to use Dawkins’ self-description), although the opposite case of “cultural atheists” becoming Christians for whatever reasons (as is already the case with many people who grew up in a Communist system) might be a distinct possibility also in future generations of Westerners.
Posted by George, Tuesday, 18 March 2014 8:40:12 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
i figured..WITH AT LEAST TWO..'DECLARED' PATTersons
that maybe..its time FOR A CLOSER TO TOPIC/PATTERSON TEXT
[IF NOT this]..one quotes..these is 19 more..here i havnt noted/but then..neither did..either of you

if you could ONLY HEAR/hear ..WHAT his spirit..IS RELAYING
INTO YOU2..[AND ITS EASY..IF YOU TRY..just jumble up his words..and rejoin them back together AGAIN

LETS TRY?

http://clatterymachinery.wordpress.com/2006/09/03/the-top-20-greatest-banjo-paterson-poems-of-all-time/

from The Bulletin,..April 8,..1893

Behind the mortal vision Scenes..The actor struts
his little POWER/hour,into perception AND/or misconception..Between the greater glory..and simplest..of power..lies..the limelight and the band;

The public..feel..the actor’s power,..Yet nothing..do they understand
Of all..the external/onternal-touches of spirit..in here and AOT-there...That make or mar..the actor’s..REPLAYED part,

They never see,..beneath the glare,..the scriptwriters muses..
The artist..striving/after art...HEARING/THE FAINTEST WISPIER..
To them..it seems a..labourFREE slight..Where nought of study intervenes;..

AND YET..You see it..NOW..
Now see it..in another MORE..TEMPORAL-[DE]-light

When once..you’ve been..aND SEEN..AS WE SEE..;[behind]..the scenes.
For *though..the actor..[at his best]..*THROUGH THE ACTOR IS BEST..Is, PROJECTED..like UNTO a poet,..AS/RE-LIVED EXPERience..is born..not made,

He still must..EVEN THEN..YET yearn/studyHEARING..with a zest
And practise hard..to learn this..listening trade....[not TIRADE]..So,that/thus..whether on the actor’s form..its envioning or upon..the MORTAL EYES/SEEING..BY The stately robes..of Hamlet yet/sit..[UPON A STOOL..OF SHHH*IT]

Or..as Macbeth..he rave..TEMPEST and storm, ACT FORLORN/FORELOCK SHON....Or plays burlesque..LIKE THAT OF LOKI....OR CAIN..to please the pit..‘Tis each and all..a work of art,..WE LEARN OF..or yearn but for/but..to practice..THE REVEALING..IN..it.

That constant care..REFINING..DEFINING..and practice means–
The actor..who creates a part...Has done his work DONE..BE-FOR HIM..BY THE UNSEEN..unGLORIFIED GREAT MINDS..BEYOND Mortal gaze..ever present...ever going ON..behind the scenes.

a duel/duet..in the hope
that..we shant beget..that best we forget.
many were called..but..that now..you enjoy..the annoy..of the life giverS..GIFT.

AND..YOU TWO..BOTH DARED..DENEy..*THINK
THAT DEAD..MEANs dead..[LEAVE THE L\REST UNSAID]..this is it.

WETHER..YOUR LIFE..IS GOLD
OR YOUR LIfe is sh*it..that ye dream..in your dreams
makes/up for the rest....of it..AND..[when you die]..you come back..into the passions[of thyne..OWN..dreamtime]..OK BAnjo..tRy..try to channel hiM..2

IM SURE..THYNE PROOF..LIES..JUST IN Thee two..
both of you...

PS..[joh ho/HO..HO..THEY DONT GOT..A CLUE..NOR YOU...but..t.y]
Posted by one under god, Tuesday, 18 March 2014 9:57:32 AM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear Yuyutsu,

Of course, you are right that to deal with Russell's paradox mathematicians use the term class, which is not easy to explain how different it is from a set, since in everyday language a set of objects and a class of objects mean the same thing.

Another “paradox” one should avoid in everyday language is to claim that “we should love and worship God” who does not exist. That is, unless you agree with Dawkins’ God as a mere mental delusion. Even then, I do not see why you should recommend worshiping a delusion.

Or is it your way to refer to Aquinas’ God not as ens summum (the highest being) but as ipsum esse subsistens (the sheer act to be itself)? Or to Paul Tillich’s contention that God is not merely “a being” but “being itself”?

If you do not like the word being, you could replace it with, for instance, existence. Like “God is existence itself”, which does not make much sense for the uninitiated but at least does not equate God with a delusion.
Posted by George, Tuesday, 18 March 2014 10:48:12 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
``````````````BAN JO/GHOST WRITer
through..the tumult..of their..warlike preparation
And the half-stilled..clamour of the drums
Came a voice crying,..‘Lo! a new-made nation,
To her place..in the sisterhood..
our/global common-wealth NATION..comes!’
http://clatterymachinery.wordpress.com/2006/09/03/the-top-20-greatest-banjo-paterson-poems-of-all-time/

And she..came–she was beautiful..a S.U.N...as morning,
With the bloom..of the WATTLE..in her mouth,
Like a young queen..lavishly adorning
Her charms..with the splendors..BOUND BY THE BLOOD and..GUts of the Youth..CRUSHED..INTO WARS DUSTS/mired IN..Betrayed trust.

And the fierce..old nations,/OF waring..looking DOWN/UPon her,
Said,..‘Nay,..surely she..were quickly overthrown,
Hath she strength..for the burden laid..upon her,
Hath..she power to..serve save..amd protect..and guard..EVEN/her own?

Then she spoke,..and her voice was clear..and ringing
In..the ears of the nations..old and gray,
Saying,..‘Hark,..and ye shall hear my children singing
Their war-song..in ever/oLDER-countries..OH/SO far away.

They are..NO strangers..to the tumult..of/the battle,Still/2come.
They are few..but their hearts..are very strong,
‘Twas..but yesterday..they..called unto the BATTLE..JUST/Like..cattle,
But they.now sing..Australia’s marching song.’..forgetting god wAS BEGGED..TO SAve/our QUEEN..NOT HER..global-COLONIZATION/scheme.


Song.of the Austr-alians..in-Action
For.the dis-honour of Australia,..FOR..our mother,

Side by side.with our kin-kind..from over sea,
We have fought..together..and.we have tested one another,
And enrolled..[not payrolled]..among the..COmmon wealth-brotherhood..are we.

There was never..lost..of danger..but..THAT..we sought it
In the fighting,..through the fire,..and..through the flood/blood.
There/was never prize..so costly..in/lives..but we bought it,
Though we paid..for its purchase with..lives our treasure..our blood.

Was there..ever..any road..too rough..for us to travel?
Was there any path.too far for us to tread?
You can track us by the blood drops ..on the gravel
On the roads..that we milestoned..with the destructed COMMON MAN MONEY..wealth..THE BOdies..0f our dead!

And for you,..oh our young-minded..yet old..and anxious mother,
O’er your great gains..keeping watch..service..not servitude and ward,

Neither..OF US fearing..nor despising any other,
yes our lADY..EACH-OTHER..LOVING TOGETHER
We will..hold your possessions..with the s*word.
AND DEFEND..THE LIVING/Sacred..with the..sacred gods..last/world.

wikiseed/wikigeld S.U.n.treaty

. . . . .

Then they passed..to the place...of world-long..sleeping,
The grey-clad figures..with their dead,
To the sound..of their women..softly weeping
And the Dead March..moaning at their head:

And the Nations,..as the grim procession..ended,
Whispered,..‘Child!..But ye have seen..the price we pay,
From War..may we ever be defended,
Kneel ye down,..new-made Sister–

NOW..
Let us Pray!’

the after/living..gets better than this.


______
Posted by one under god, Tuesday, 18 March 2014 11:47:39 AM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear George,

It is not possible to define God in any positive terms, because any such attempt would imply that God were somehow limited. This includes all three cases that you mentioned: delusion; act of being; and being/existence itself.

Instead, I follow the "Neti Neti" principle of the school of Advaita Vedanta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neti_neti), whose Western equivalent is Via Negativa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Via_negativa).

Despite the inability to define God, sages tell us that it is possible to directly experience Him and I had glimpses of that myself:
Interestingly, one of those glimpses occurred while I was contemplating set theory. When I came out of this experience, I exclaimed to myself: "Wow, I proved that there is God!", however as much as I tried to reconstruct that "proof", I was unable to, because it was in fact a direct experience rather than a rational process. What happened was that due to a combination of my intense concentration on the infinities of set theory, and by the grace of God, my mind was temporarily suspended allowing this direct experience to happen. There was no way to wilfully repeat this experience with the mind intact.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Tuesday, 18 March 2014 12:45:53 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Thanks Yuyutso & Banjo, I was expecting an avalanche of replies on my "the prize (life)" I was imagining the religious to be on to that one, as to them I am created by a super being , not as a prize, in writing I use expressions like this, but I was wrong and must have been accepted as a prize as is in a race, we all are lucky to get the prize when you really think about it, great swimmers. Have a great day, for who knows when the prize will be extinguished for ever.
Posted by Ojnab, Tuesday, 18 March 2014 1:08:33 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear Ojnab,

Human birth is indeed a big and rare prize, also a big responsibility - so please make the maximum of it.

According to Buddhism, there are 6 worlds to which our soul migrates (http://buddhism.about.com/od/basicbuddhistteachings/tp/Six-Realms-of-Existence.htm):

"The Human Realm is the only realm of the six from which beings may escape samsara. Enlightenment is at hand in the Human Realm, yet only a few open their eyes and see it. Rebirth into the Human Realm is conditioned by passion, doubt and desire."

One may perhaps be waiting for trillions of years, being tossed back and forth between heavens and hells before gaining this prize. USE IT WISELY!
Posted by Yuyutsu, Tuesday, 18 March 2014 1:33:37 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
A Comparison Between Quantum Physics and
A Course in Miracles
http://www.google.com.au/search?q=SET+THEORY+ACIM
by Lorraine Marie Coburn
Quantum physics is confusing, confounding, and convoluted. It indicates that our universe is upside down, and
what we think we see is not reality.

In fact, physicists are having a hard time determining what reality really is. At..the subatomic level, particles can be in two places at one time, can pop in and out of existence, can be created out of
nothing, and can communicate faster than the speed of light, as if they are reading each others' minds.

Pioneer physicist Neils Bohr said, "Anyone not shocked by quantum mechanics has not understood it." Likewise,students of A Course in Miracles are known for throwing their Course books across the room and swearing about its//seemingly ridiculous message.

ACIM and physics tend to agree that the nature of physical reality is deceiving...However, they tend to diverge on the ultimate nature of reality, because A Course in Miracles states that physical
forms do not even exist and have never existed.

In the meantime, many physicists are still searching for a grand
unified theory that will explain how the universe works.

Leading physicists differ widely in their interpretations of quantum reality and new discoveries are being made..constantly. A Course in Miracles is also subject to interpretation, therefore, so are the ideas in this article.

According to the Course, Heaven
is changeless, formless, eternal love.
Nothing but God/Love exists and there is..no physical universe, no bodies, no planets, no form. I

t is pure non-duality, oneness with no opposite. However, we
perceive that we live in bodies on planet earth, so ACIM speaks to us as if those are real, while telling us that..ultimately they are not.

On earth there is duality,
apparent choices to be made among opposites.
Separation is the..rule-separate bodies, separate nations, separate time periods, etc.

Heaven is outside of time and space, and,
according to ACIM, time and space do not even exist,
because "Reality is ultimately known..without a form,..[unpictured and unseen.]" (T-27.III.5:2)
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6040&page=0
Posted by one under god, Tuesday, 18 March 2014 2:08:56 PM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Yuyutsu,

To insist that God cannot be defined in positive terms is also to imply that God is limited in some way.

<<It is not possible to define God in any positive terms, because any such attempt would imply that God were somehow limited.>>

Furthermore, this means that that which CAN be defined in positive terms is superior to God in some way; just as anything that exists, and things that are things, are all superior to your God in some ways.

The only way around this is to claim that God can be both ‘defined in positives terms’ and ‘not defined in positive terms’; that He can be both existent and non-existent at the same; that He is both yet neither, all at once. But I’m sure I don’t have to explain the problems with that to you.

I know you believe that there is nothing but God, but that means that God is everything and, according to you, God is not a thing; so He certainly can't be everything if He's not a thing, because everything is a totality and a totality is a thing. Moreover, by claiming that there is nothing but God, you are limiting Him to everything. What about the nothingness - the sheer absence - that doesn't exist outside of God? Is it not superior to God in some way?

As for your divine experience, I’m intrigued as to how you ruled out a rational explanation for it, and how you still concluded that it was a divine experience despite the fact that eliminating all rational explanations still doesn’t support a divine one.
Posted by AJ Philips, Tuesday, 18 March 2014 2:51:19 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
A post from one under god in complete sentences and with no shouting ?
Posted by Candide, Tuesday, 18 March 2014 3:41:38 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear Yuyutsu,

We define concepts, not objects or phenomena outside of us that the concepts are supposed to relate to. If I define the term “an Australian” as a person who can carry an Australian passport, I say practically nothing about the millions of Australians, each one a different personality, only about how I (and others) understand the concept of being “an Australian”.

In my opinion the “neti, neti principle” relates to what Christians call apophatic theology, and what I like to express by saying that God, whoever/whatever He is, is beyond the reach of scientific investigation.

So I think I understand what you mean. Neither Eastern nor Western mystics want to “define” - in order to communicate to others - their experience of God or the Spiritual, which is beyond rational analysis, where definitions have their place.

All I wanted to point out was that you can hardly make yourself understood by others when your recommendations sound like “you should worship your own delusions”.
Posted by George, Wednesday, 19 March 2014 12:00:30 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
.
 
Dear George,
 
.
 
You wrote : “ … in some context you would like to know whether a person is e.g. Australian or Chinese and to avoid confusion  …  whether citizenship or ethnicity (somebody could be an Australian citizen of Chinese ethnicity)”.

You hit the jackpot, George ! I am a third generation born Australian citizen, of 50% Chinese, 25% English and 25% Irish extraction. My wife, children and grandchildren were all born here in France, so I am the only foreigner in the family.

You also indicate: " Today the majority of atheists are still “cultural Christians” (to use Dawkins’ self-description) …".

I must admit I am not a great fan of Dawkins whom I see as a militant atheist and a somewhat obnoxious one at that. If you feel the need to identify me more precisely, may I suggest you think of me as a "godless Christian" which I feel is more to the point.

.
Posted by Banjo Paterson, Wednesday, 19 March 2014 10:04:31 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
.

Dear One Under God,

.

Thank you for that link to what somebody considers to be my top 20 greatest poems.

As you know, I died when the Second World War broke out in 1941 at the age of 77, but as this internet anthology is there to demonstrate, a good poet never dies !

I love the bush and the Australian outback and admire the courage and skill of bush horsemen and the tough, honest virtues of bush life. I can think of nothing better than riding the ranges under the bright blue sky, boiling the billy out among the gum trees down by the river, watching the big white cockatoos circling high above, then rolling out my swag and dropping gently off to sleep under the twinkling stars in the quiet and peace on a warm summer night.

I am glad you like my ballads. I am very impressed by the manner in which you highlight certain words and phrases with your personal touch, accentuating them, giving them new meanings, evoking new contexts, new vigour, arousing sensibilities which even I had not imagined.

Though I am no more than an urn of ashes in these Memorial Gardens, I am in good company now with my good friend, Slim Dusty who came to join me a little more than a decade ago. We get along well together and share fond memories of times gone by.

But I am no longer in your world, the world of stockmen and drovers, of sheep and cattle and horses and the outback. I think of all those ballads I can no longer write and ... turn to you, Dear One Under God.

I have read your verse and I like your style. I would be deeply honoured if you would take up my pen and continue … where I left off. . Have no fear. I shall accompany you in your endeavour. I know you can do it. Don’t look now. I am standing close to you ... looking over your shoulder !

.
Posted by Banjo Paterson, Wednesday, 19 March 2014 10:16:37 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
The eager..CUCKOLDED/stockhorse..pricks his ears
And..lifts..his head on high..In wild excitement..when he hears
The..Brumby mob..go by.

Old/Brumby..asks no price/TITHE....Nor fee
O’er all his wide..LIFE domains:..FREE.
The man..who yards..IT/ALL..This stock..is free..To keep them.[for his pains.

So,..off..to scour..the mountain-side
With eager eyes aglow,..WITH GREED[PRIDE?]
To..THE strongholds..where..the wild-mobs hide
THERE..The gully-rakers..WITH..THEIR SCAPE/HORSES GO..

NO/MORE..A rush..of horses..shimmering/through the trees,
A red shirt..WAVED..making play;
A sound of stockwhips..on the breeze,
THUS..They vanish..far away!

ENTER/THE JOC*KEY..
WHO..RODE/THE WILD BRUMBY

Ah,..me!
before our day..is done
We long..with..bitter pain..To ride
once more..on Brumby’s Run..Steady..the stallion there–..[canter him steadily,]..Don’t..let him gallop..so much as..a yard.’firm bit/hard hands/MAKE..HIM UNDER-STAND.

Fiercely..he fights..the futile end
while..the others..run wide of him,..yet..he follows/his masters orders..Reefs/at the bit..that..would hold him..bit-in..in thrall,

the..scape/goat/brumby..buck
Plunges and bucks..till the boy..[child/of god]..that’s astride of him
Goes..off..onto the ground..with a terrible fall.

‘Stop him..there!
Block him..there!..the scape/buck..[king]..[betrayer/COCONUT]..Drive him in carefully,..Lead him about..till he’s quiet..DOCILE/Tamed..and cool.

THE/MONEY/BUCK..Sound as a bell!..though he’s blown himself..off most fearfully,

Now..let us pick up..this poor..skinny/starved..little fool.

‘Stunned?..Oh,NO..by Jove,
I’m afraid..it’s a case/CLOSED..with him;
Ride for the doctor!..keep bathing his head!
Send for a cart..to go down..to our place with him’–

No use!
One..long sigh..and..the little chap’s..dead.

Only a..jockey-boy,..foul-mouthed..and bad..[you see/UNLIKE ME]
Ignorant,..heathenish,..gone to his rest...[you knew him best]
Parson..or Presbyter,..Pharisee,..Sadducee,..sandman African..or Cajun

so..What did you do..for him?–
bad was..the best...abo's jinn..Negroes..and foreigners,..all have a claim on you;..after govT MALFEASANCE EATS..ITS LAST BITTER FRUITS

Yearly..you send..US..OUT..IMAGERY..OF your well-advertised hoard,
But..the poor jockey-boy–shame..on you,..shame on you,
SISDT/THEE..‘Feed ye,..my..little ones’–

what said..the Lord?
..HE SENT..YOU HIS CHILD..Him..ye held/less than.the outer barbarian,
Left him to die ..in his ignorant/OBEDIENT/SERVILE sin;

Have you..DEAR READER..no principles,..ARE YOU..EVEN humanitarian?
Have you..no precept–Beyond..here lie..riches..lets..’go gather them in?’

Knew he..God’s name
Is..EMMANUEL/light sustaining life..via the logic..*within..?

In this..brutal profanity,
That sacred-name..was an oath–out..of many..but one.[WE CAN CALL GOOD]

What..did he get..from our..famed Christianity?
Where has..THYNE soul–if Ye had any–..

WHERE has it gone?

Fourteen years old,..and..what..was he taught of it?
What did he know..of God’s infinite grace..omnipresent mercy?

Draw..the dark curtain..of shame/BLAME/INSANE..o’er the thought of it,
Draw the shroud..over the jockey-boy’s face...TO HIDS OUR DIS-GRACE.
Posted by one under god, Wednesday, 19 March 2014 11:28:57 AM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
.

Dear Yuyutsu,

.

You recommended to me on page 10 of this thread: “ come to know that your human limitations are but an illusion”.

This has been trotting around in my mind and I find it a little worrying. My concern is not for my own well-being but for yours.

In my view, it is not reality but so-called mysticism which is an illusion. On the basis of my observations, I can imagine, though, to be honest, I have not practiced it myself, that deep, prolonged meditation or mysticism or whatever you like to call it, creates the illusion that the mind is transported beyond reality and acquires unlimited access to the inaccessible.

I consider this to be an illusion because to the best of my knowledge there is no evidence that the individual mind has access to any reality which has not been either perceived directly by the individual himself or the memory of which has not been transmitted to him biologically.

As for the possibility of the mind being transported beyond reality, this is what is generally known as imagination, a faculty shared by most, if not all, individuals and which does not usually require deep, prolonged meditation or mysticism in order to be activated.

I have the impression you have inversed the roles of mysticism and reality due, perhaps, to a misinterpretation or an incorrect application of the teachings of your gurus and/or mentors. I am concerned that you may fall victim to the illusion that human beings can fly or that you can cross the street without paying attention to oncoming traffic, for example.

I should hate to lose such a valuable and sympathetic correspondent here on OLO for this or any other perfectly avoidable accident.

.
Posted by Banjo Paterson, Wednesday, 19 March 2014 11:35:29 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
bj/quoTe..<<>I am concerned..that you may fall victim..to the illusion..>>OR RATHER/SEEK TO HERE BY DISPELL..YU/OWN CONCLUSION..<<>.come to know that your human limitations..are but an illusion”.>>

ITS NOT CONFUSING..THE CONFUSION..IS IN OTHER
BUT NOT IN YO..BUT IN YOU.

<<>.This has been trotting around in my mind>>

yes correct

<<>>a little worrying...My concern..is not for my own well-being but for yours.>>

your getting there

<<In my view,..it is not reality..but so-called mysticism which is an illusion.>>

NAMES can mean anything..but mystics
practicing the mystery..isnt mysticism..UNLess your mystified.

<<>>On the basis of my observations,edited..creates the illusion that the mind is transported beyond reality and acquires unlimited access to the inaccessible.>>

AND YOUR EITHER INTO THE MYSTERY..OR MYSTIFIED
OR EVOLVING an illusion INTO A MYSTRY

<<>>I consider this to be an illusion..>>../LOL\..<<because to the best of my knowledge there is no evidence*...that the individual mind has access to any reality..which has not been either perceived directly..by the individual himself..or the memory of which has not been transmitted to him biologically.>>

or a movie or a book or a story told him..or that he experiences expected OR FEEL EXPLAINS...[your over complicating this..

WHAT DOES..BIOLOGICALLY 'TRANSMITTED REALLY MEAN:?
how about altered states..or strong EMOTION MODIFIERS ..OR DRUGS/Booze tiredness hunger..expectation trickery..ETC ETC

<<>>As for the possibility..of the mind being transported beyond reality,..this is what is generally known as imagination,..a faculty shared by most,..if not all,..individuals and which does not usually require deep,..prolonged meditation or mysticism..in order to be activated.>>

sure..LOVERS ATTRACT LOVE.
SOME//LOVE THINKING/ABOUT..IT..OTHERS..JUST CANT STOP DOING IT

<<.I have the impression.you have inversed..the roles of mysticism and reality due,..perhaps, to a misinterpretation or an incorrect application..of the teachings..of your gurus and/or mentors.that human beings..can fly or that you can cross the street..without paying attention to oncoming traffic,..for example.>>

TILL..it happens..to you/you will think as you do.
freewill is that sacred.
Posted by one under god, Wednesday, 19 March 2014 12:34:36 PM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear AJ Philips,

That God cannot be defined in positive terms, is a limitation of humans, of language and of concepts, not of God.

If you consider existence and the idea of positive-definition superior, then that's your personal value and preference. Ideas can be compared because they are objects, but only objects can be compared - any other comparison is logically faulty and meaningless.

Yes, there is nothing but God, but that does not imply that God is everything. Even mathematically, the claim "If A is B than B is A" is only valid when both A and B exist (within the given set of axioms).

The classic example is the rope and the snake: you walk in the twilight and see a snake in the bush ahead, so initially you are frightened but then you shine a torch on it and find that it's only a piece of rope, so you no longer fear. It never was a snake in the first place. The snake is a rope, but the rope is not a snake! How come? Because the snake never existed!

Also, the ocean for example is water, but water is not the ocean, water only happens for the time-being to take the form of the ocean. Another way to state this is that while the ocean is truly there, water is a deeper truth of the ocean.

At the time I had that particular direct-experience, I did not understand what happened. I was not even preoccupied with God around that time: all I wanted was to understand that book on mathematical set-theory. There was a profound sudden experience, but I had no name for it. Instead, in the second-after-that I interpreted it as having found a proof of God, which I thought occurred by some mental process. But as hard as I tried, I was unable to reconstruct that mental process. It is only years and a few more experiences later that I begin, just begin, to connect the dots.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Wednesday, 19 March 2014 1:04:44 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear Banjo,

Please don't worry: the mind cannot be transported anywhere, let alone beyond reality - it stays right inside one's skull!

However, the use of the mind can be suspended. There's nothing spectacular about it: we haven't been using our mind before we born, then even as babies we only gradually started using it. In fact we still don't use our mind while in deep sleep either.

My grandmother used to cross the street without paying attention to oncoming traffic, but she was no mystic at all and to the best of my knowledge never meditated. Also, that was not how she died.

And humans can fly, you know (but please don't try it on your own body) - it's just that we haven't yet solved that slight problem of landing without injury.

Now let's get a bit more serious:

Your human limitations will always constrain that human you call 'Banjo'. The illusion and limiting factor is in your perception as if YOU are Banjo.
Banjo is limited - he can't fly and if he continuously crossed streets without looking, then he would at very high probability be run over by a car. You, however, cannot be run over by a car, because all cars are nothing but Yourself, and so is Banjo, so is Yuyutsu, so it this forum, so is the screen you watch and the keyboard you type on. There is nothing but You - You are God.

Dear George,

Thank you for your kind advice. I am glad that at least someone here understands my explanations.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Wednesday, 19 March 2014 1:04:49 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
But if God were limitless, Yuyutsu, then it should be possible to define Him in positive terms within our limits as well.

<<That God cannot be defined in positive terms, is a limitation of humans, of language and of concepts, not of God.>>

This is still a limitation. I, on the other hand, can be positively defined both within our limits and beyond them. So I must be superior to God in that way.

<<Yes, there is nothing but God, but that does not imply that God is everything.>>

This is cheating. You can’t speak of something as though it exists - using language that we would all use to refer to something that does exist - and then sidestep a perfectly sound point that someone makes by claiming that this thing that you’ve been talking about doesn’t actually exist. Similarly, you cannot speak of something as though it is a thing and then claim that God is not a thing when someone does something as innocent as use words like ‘something’ or ‘nothing’ in order to get a toehold on what you’re talking about.

If you are limited by language (as we all are) and must necessarily speak about your God as though it exists and as though it is a thing, then you need to afford others the luxury of using words like ‘something’ and ‘nothing’ in order to refer to what you are talking about without you sidestepping their point by claiming that God is not a thing.

These types of semantics may enable you to feel more enlightened than everyone else, but in reality, you have merely hidden your god in non-existence for the sole purpose of protecting it from criticism and puzzling others (If you can’t dazzle them with brilliance… ). There is no enlightenment here, no deep spirituality, just a word game.

Thanks for sharing what you believe to be your direct experience of God. However, going by what you've said, you cannot rule out a rational explanation.
Posted by AJ Philips, Wednesday, 19 March 2014 3:20:08 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
I've written on this subject in the past
so kindly bear with my repetition.

It was the sociologist Emile Durkheim who believed
that the origins of religion were social, not
supernatural. He pointed out that,
whatever their source, the rituals enacted in any
religion enhance the solidarity of the community
as well as its faith.

Consider such religious ritual such as Baptism,
Bar Mitvah, Weddings, Sabbath Services,
Christmas and Easter Mass, and of course - Funerals.

Rituals like these serve to bring people together, to
remind them of their common group membership, to
re-affirm their traditional values, to maintain
prohibitions and taboos, in the case of funerals -
to offer comfort in times of crisis, and in general
to help transmit the cultural heritage from one
generation to the next.

People may not believe deeply in traditional religion, but
many have found no satisfying substitute. The choice of
a funeral service is of course a personal one. Whatever
brings comfort during this difficult time to family
members should however be respected and not judged.
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 19 March 2014 4:17:36 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
AJ..THE EXISTANce of god is by personal revelation
SIGN IF YOU WILL/../EXTERNAL SIGN..BECAUSE GOD EXISTS WITHIN EVery living thing..YOU CANT SEE WITHIN me/or you..AND IF YOU TEST ME[or you]..who is to say..thats god doing it from within ME..[OR YOU]

..it seems...convoluted thinking..BECAUSE GOD IS OUTSIDE US..YET INSIDE US ONLY/..SUSTAINING THE OUTER..[exzist]..we are the external because god is the [inzist]..INTERNAL GOOD SUSTAINING LIFE LOVE LOGIC IN THE holy SPIRITS light
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=11008&page=0

I STILL RESIST..THE SPECIALIZED Thinking required
but i allrEADY STATED THAT LAST TIME..i see the externals..KNOWING.. only god could haVE HELPED CREATE..THAT INNER SEEING...externalized INTO WORD FORMS ON THE SCREEN..

THE INSIDE UNSEEN...BEING ,CONCEALED..THAT ACCRETED LIFE ARROUND HER,unconcealed/revealed..externalised..yet none that we see is god..only energy changing state

SEE YOU ARNT DOING IT
SEE THAT SCIence cannot make claim..to nature/natural nuthin
[that intelligent 'NATURAL/selection..belongs to GOD..WITHIN HIS CREATIONS..loving his creations..loving and being lOVED..WHY DO YOU LOVE/HOW DO YOU TURN..wasted dead energies into usefull living energies.

your either fROM NUTHIN GOING NO WHERE
Or your a child of the eternal immortal good..REACHING FOR THE STARS

ITS NOT A THING You ned do
its simply a thing you must see..from within..finding your real self IN OTHER...[who is not thyne brother?..that we did to thge least..we did to him

we seek him here/we seek him..tHERE
BUT THERE HE LIES..WITHIN YOU..JUST WAITING TO SERVE YOU YOur life gift..[HE LIVES TO SERVE YOUR LIVING]..HIS WIll is to do thyne will]
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6040&page=0
Posted by one under god, Wednesday, 19 March 2014 4:54:38 PM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
"There was a profound sudden experience, but I had no name for it."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_fart

"...The researchers suspect the abnormal behavior is the result of the brain attempting to save effort on a task by entering a more restful state. The scientists detailed their findings on 21 April 2008 online in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. The scientific term they gave the phenomenon is 'maladaptive brain activity change'."
Posted by WmTrevor, Wednesday, 19 March 2014 5:10:19 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
WIN...the brain fart..is the opposing..of GOD
THAT IS..WHAT HAPPENS WHEN..WE CHASE..[EVEN]..GOD away..become..yet again..mere beast*

maybe..yOU GOT THE WRONG NAME..try meTA-COGNIZATION
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metacognition

Metacognition is defined as.."cognition about cognition", or "knowing about knowing"...It comes from..the root word "meta", meaning behind.[1]..every/logical knowing.[logus][cognition]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognition

Cognition..is the process..[floW]..by which..the *sensory input* is transformed,..reduced,..elaborated,.stored,/recovered,..APPLIED/and used.[1]

This higher-level..*cognition..was given the label metacognition by American developmental psychologist John Flavell..(1976).The term metacognition literally..means cognition about cognition,..[i am/that..i am]..or more informally,..thinking/IN PERSONUM..about GENERALIZED/thinking.

Flavell defined metacognition..as,,applied/knowledge..about cognition and..control of cognition...For example,..I am engaging in metacognition..if I notice*..that I am having more trouble learning A than B;..[or]..if it strikes me*[IN-SPIRES]..that I should double check C..before accepting it as fact.|J. H. Flavell (1976, p. 232).

A. Demetriou,..in his theory,..one of the neo-Piagetian theories of cognitive development,..used the term hypercognition..to refer to self-monitoring,..*self-representation,..*and self-regulation processes,..which are regarded as integral components..of the human mind.[6]

Moreover, with his colleagues,..he showed that these processes participate in general intelligence, together with processing efficiency and reasoning,..which have traditionally been considered to compose fluid intelligence.[7]

Metacognition..also INCLUdes..herd/group/thinks..about one's own Enjoined..[as one/INTENTION]..Ego-thinking process such as study skills,..memory cap..bilities,..and the ability to monitor learning. This concept needs to be explicitly taught along with content instruction.

Metacognitive *knowledge..is about our own cognitive processes*..and our applied/understanding*..of how to regulate..those processes to maximize learning.

Some types of metacognitive..knowledge would include:..1.Personal knowledge...(declarative knowledge) which is understanding one's own capabilities. 2...Task knowledge..(procedural knowledge) which is how one perceives..the difficulty[COMPLEXITIES]..of a task..which is the content,length,..and the type of assignment.

3...Strategic knowledge..(conditional knowledge) which is one's own capability for using strategies to learn information...Young children are not particularly good at this;..it is not until upper elementary where students start to develop..the understanding of strategies that will be effective.

Different fields define..metacognition very differently. Metacognition variously..refers to the study of memory-monitoring and self-regulation,..meta-reasoning,..consciousness/awareness and auto-consciousness/self-awareness.

In practice these capacities..are used to regulate one's own cognition, to maximize..one's potential to think,learn and to the evaluation of proper ethical/moral rules...
Posted by one under god, Wednesday, 19 March 2014 5:50:14 PM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear AJ Philips,

<<I, on the other hand, can be positively defined>>

I beg to differ.

<<This is cheating. You can’t speak of something as though it exists>>

Well, God is not something, but I still could!
I may be wrong, but I can still do so out of habit and the weakness of my mind.
Please forgive me as that would be my own limitation, or as you kindly pointed, the limitation of language.

My weakness, however doesn't suddenly cause God to become existent.

Those who believe that God exists, think of Him as something limited, normally a being, perhaps some father-figure above the clouds, a creator of universes, something along those lines - while the possibility of such a being theoretically exists, that would be just part of material science, so is of no interest to me and certainly not worthy of worship and devotion.

(there are also others, as George mentioned, who believe that God is a figment of one's mind or a mental delusion, but that would be even less interesting, for unlike the former, they don't even believe that this figment of one's mind created and controls this universe...)

I do hope that you agree with me that God doesn't exist, for otherwise you would be referring to something/someone else ("else" for my lack of language), in which case something/someone that I wouldn't like to waste my time on.

It is unfortunate that the direct experience of God cannot be conveyed in any way (otherwise it would not be direct!).
Posted by Yuyutsu, Wednesday, 19 March 2014 7:19:40 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
I thought the writer was referring to " The Awful Funeral" seems as though the funeral is now dead & buried somewhere, the existence or non existence of a God has now taken over the storyline so we have said goodbye to the deceased and now must go home and forget all about that damned "Awful Funeral" and get on with life and hope we are not next in that "Awful Box".
Posted by Ojnab, Wednesday, 19 March 2014 8:29:10 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
.

Dear One Under God,

.

I am deeply honoured to see that you have accepted my proposition.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=16112#280155

I could not imagine a more able successor.

.

Dear Yuyutsu,

.

First you reassured me by acknowledging that: “Banjo is limited - he can't fly and if he continuously crossed streets without looking, then he would at very high probability be run over by a car”.

But then you wrote: “You, however, cannot be run over by a car, because all cars are nothing but Yourself … you are God”.

Well, I have done all I could for you, my friend. Take care !

.

Dear AJ Philips,

.

I commiserate with you. I find Yuyutsu’s expression just as confused and contradictory as you do.

However, I take comfort in the fact that he is a moving target.

Hopefully, that will keep him out of danger.

As he indicates that George is the only person who understands him, if need be, we can always ask George to translate.

.

Dear Fozy,

.

Thank you for reminding me of Durkheim’s interpretation of the role of religion. He coined two important terms: sociology and altruism. He saw altruism as a new religion which would eventually replace Catholicism.

.
Posted by Banjo Paterson, Wednesday, 19 March 2014 8:59:59 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Banjo Paterson,

Thanks for further insights into your cultural identity. You seem to be “multiethnic”, the same as I, although with different "ingredients".

As I understand it “godless Christian” is more or less the same as what Dawkins calls “cultural Christian”, i.e. a person who grew up in a Christian cultural and family environment without acquiring the faith that comes with it (or having lost it).

[I think imagination (the faculty or action of forming new ideas, or images or concepts of external objects not present to the senses) and mysticism (spiritual apprehension of knowledge inaccessible to the intellect including imagination, attained through contemplation and self-surrender) are two very different activities of the human brain; everybody is capable of the former, very few of the latter. ]

As for Durkheim’s sociological definition of religion, we already had a discussion on this here a couple of times (se e.g. http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=4898#130804 ).

Anyhow, I think Ojnab is right that this thread has been derailed.
Posted by George, Thursday, 20 March 2014 12:12:11 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Blinder's..IN/THE MATTERS..OF SPIRIT-MATTERS GEORGE
THOSE DENYING..THE DEAD LIVE ON..dont like knowing their wrong

ITS the spirit..of the matter..THAT REALLY MATTERS
LET/the dead..tend..the dead..ISN'T..THE blindED/mortal mindset..leading the blind..EVER/EVEN FURTHER AWAY..FROM GOD.

bJ/QUOTE..<<.But..I am no longer..in your world,>>

YOUR MISSING/The big point..ITS NOT YOU/..ITS NOT ME..[ALONE]..WHO ACT AS Scribe..for the departed hand..but/TOO..the far/from departed mind

their words created..awareness....of the..<<..the world of stockmen and..drovers,>>..PUT INTO OUR MINDS..the deeds..of..<<>>of sheep and cattle..and horses..and the outback.>>

just as once..gods hand has created us
we of the creators hand..just go on and on..though not..just..simplY..within the simple bounds..of poem..or song

<<..I think of..all those ballads..I can no longer write..*>>
directly..INTO THE AWARENESS..OF THE MATERIAL REALM..by mine own hand..<<*..and...turn to you,..Dear One Under God.*>>>..TO Write it for me..so that..our PARTS..IN THESE SCRIBBLINGS..IS QUITE CLEAR

<<...I have read/your verse..>>..just to bE..MORE THAN CLEAR HERE
/THE spirit..has read..THE VERSE..AS ITS IMAGERY..[REPLY]..WAS SENT DOWN..TO YOU TO SAY..<<..and I>>..By/the hand/OF THE CHANNELED SPIRIT..in that spirit..SAy..*<<..like your style.>>

BUT OFTEN..THE Voices..within-us deceive US/BY VANITY..AND FLATTERY
JUST CAUSE ONE*..CAN CLAIM/TO BE ME..THE TRUE ME..IS Knowable..ony in the import..of the word con-TEXTs

one of..the deceived..is not..to be believed..[by one
who knows..the words commeth not..of me/thee]..please see...what i see/

when the true banjo..moves my HAND..HE DOTH NOT
NEED Thank me..when its..an inversion..OF THE..perception..of REALITY

THUS..WHEN I SEE<<..I would be deeply honoured..if you would take up my pen..and continue ..where I left off.>>

i see..but the FLATTERY OF LIPS/..TEMPTING ONLY THOSE DECEIVED..OF THE WORDS..TRUE ethereal-Spirit creator/but\..do seE A TRUISM..within mis perception..and/the reassuring ONE.

<<>>Have no fear.>>..LET NO FEAR NEAR.
AND ITS PROMISE..<<..I shall accompany you..in your endeavour.>>
thats more..ADDRESSING..OF HIM TO YOU..than..of He..to thee than me

<<>.I know..you can do it...Don’t look now.
I am standing..close to you.......looking over/your shoulder>>

there see/..THE Flattering..TEMPTATIONS..OF A WILL/OH THE WISP..be
know..THAT the eye..he can see by..whilst moving the hand..is the SERVILE same eye..OF SERVICE..as the hand.

but..thats ok banjo..i know..AND UNDERSTAND..
and/right..that..there..thats the key..when your at the funeral/KEEP OUT AN EYE..for such like me/..thee..AND HE...most of mans..greater services,..are unto other...TO..[those..grieving/errantLY]..NO LONGER..JUST..the/LEFT BEHIND...[maybE..OUT-OF..SIGHT..BUT..NOT-OUT..OF MIND..

BE KIND*
Posted by one under god, Thursday, 20 March 2014 11:31:53 AM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
I really do not know if it just me but One Under God completely loses me, perhaps I am not on the same planet as OUG, what are we trying to prove I ask, that we are a writer different, come to the point please so that everyone can understand, and not something that I cringe at and do not read as exhaustion sets in long before I have started reading the article, just by looking at it.
Posted by Ojnab, Thursday, 20 March 2014 1:50:00 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Ojnab..<<..what are we trying to prove I ask,>>

THATS ONLY BY IMPLICATION..answerable.
i have my reasonings..and you have yours/BUT WHAT THE HEY..LETS HAVE A GO ANYHOW

PETER..CLEARLY Experienced,..'The awful funeral'..
AND IT SEEM I NEVER GET INVITED TO ANY..YOU..i couldnt hazard to guesS..[But clearly..the one you would enjoy..is one that assures you..'dead means dead'..when thats far from being the way that IT IS

we dO MUCH WRONG..IN THE DEATH RITES..and i have POSTED TO THOSE THINGS AGAIN AND AGAIN..to endlessly TRY SAYING THE SAME THINGS//the same way..clearly didnt worK..last time..so why present that info yet again

WHAT INDEED ARE YOU..<<..trying to prove..i ask that we are a writer different,>.

SUre the point is taken..you life has attracted thyne SPIRITS
AND MINE LIFE STYLE HAS ATTracted unto me..mine own..the banjo..has attracted that of your revered anbcestor..yet you get difficult..when HE speaksd through us[WHY DOES THAT INDICATE some spirit/avoidance..[ir banbjo of the patterson..IS YOURS/UNLESS HE AINT DEAD..Then your his]..i can see why your feared of that..BUT cannot understand

<<..come to the point please so that everyone can understand>>

challasnge SPECIFIC INFO
THESE GENERALISATIONS REGARDING TOPIC wandering aqre them selves EVEN FURTHER OFF TOPIC..

<<>..and not something that I cringe at..and do not read as exhaustion sets in long..before I have started reading the article, just by looking at it.>>

YES IDEAS THAT CHALLENGE OUR Misconceptions..allow the demons to suck us dry..a consolation..IS IT TIRES THEM OUT MORE THan you/

you can only ignore..the reality..for one life time..
then the truth reveals the ABSURDITY...ADD INFINITUM*..once your not really dead..then YOU NEED FIND WHAT YOU REALLY ARE

I Would post links to goNE WEST..or THE MANY OTHER AFTER LIFE TEXTS
BUT fear it would be a wasted effort..
http://www.divinetruth.com/PDF/People/Other/Jane%20Sherwood%20-%20Post%20Mortem%20Journal.pdf
http://www.ghostcircle.com/ebooks/JSM_Ward%20-%20Gone_West.pdf
Posted by one under god, Thursday, 20 March 2014 2:36:48 PM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear George,

.

I prefer “godless Christian” to Dawkins’ “cultural Christian” because it is more to the point. It seems to me that all Christians, whether they believe or “have faith” in God or not, are “culturally” Christian.

Also, you will recall that I wrote:

“As for the possibility of the mind being transported beyond reality, this is what is generally known as imagination, a faculty shared by most, if not all, individuals and which does not usually require deep, prolonged meditation or mysticism in order to be activated”.

However, I do not see imagination and mysticism , as you do: “ two very different activities of the human brain”. I see imagination as “an activity of the brain” and mysticism as the objectif and/or the result of which meditation and imagination are the means.

I agree with your definition of imagination but not with your definition of mysticism . The Online Oxford Dictionary provides the following definition of mysticism:

- Belief that union with or absorption into the Deity or the absolute, or the spiritual apprehension of knowledge inaccessible to the intellect, may be attained through contemplation and self-surrender (Note: in this context “contemplation” means “meditation”): e.g., “St Theresa’s writings were part of the tradition of Christian mysticism”

- Vague or ill-defined religious or spiritual belief, especially as associated with a belief in the occult: e.g., “There is a hint of New Age mysticism in the show’s title”

A more detailed and comprehensive etymological analysis throws some light on the interaction and cross-fertilisation of the two.

In addition to your definition of IMAGINATION:

The Free Cambridge Online Dictionary adds this:

something that you think exists or is true, although in fact it is not real or true, e.g.:

- Was she paying him a lot of attention or was it just my imagination?

- Is it my imagination or is David behaving strangely at the moment?

The French Littré adds this:

- Belief, opinion which one has by imagination. It is pure imagination


(Continued ...)

.
Posted by Banjo Paterson, Friday, 21 March 2014 2:16:08 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
.

(Continued ...)

.

The Online Etymology Dictionary indicates (for imagination):

"faculty of the mind which forms and manipulates images," mid-14c., ymaginacion, from Old French imaginacion "concept, mental picture; hallucination," from Latin imaginationem (nominative imaginatio) "imagination, a fancy,"Latin imaginationem (nominative imaginatio) "imagination, a fancy,"

The entry in the Online Etymology Dictionary for fancy is:

early 14c., "illusory appearance," from Old French fantaisie (14c.) "vision, imagination," from Latin phantasia, from Greek phantasia "appearance, image, perception, imagination," from phantazesthai "picture to oneself," from phantos "visible," from phainesthai "appear," in late Greek "to imagine, have visions," related to phaos, phos "light," phainein "to show, to bring to light" (see phantasm). Sense of "whimsical notion, illusion" is pre-1400, followed by that of "imagination," which is first attested 1530s. Sense of "day-dream based on desires" is from 1926.

In addition to the Online Oxford Dictionary definition of MYSTICISM:

The Free Cambridge Online Dictionary indicates:

- the belief that there is hidden meaning in life or that each human being can unite with God

The French Littré indicates:

- Religious or philosophical belief, which admits secret communication between mankind and the Divine.

The Online Etymology Dictionary indicates:

Mysticism derives from mystic. The entry for mystic is as follows:
mystic (adj.) :

- late 14c., "spiritually allegorical, pertaining to mysteries of faith," from Old French mistique "mysterious, full of mystery" (14c.), or directly from Latin mysticus "mystical, mystic, of secret rites" (source also of Italian mistico, Spanish mistico), from Greek mystikos "secret, mystic, connected with the mysteries," from mystes "one who has been initiated" (see mystery (n.1)). Meaning "pertaining to occult practices or ancient religions" first recorded 1610s.

mystic (n.) :

- "exponent of mystical theology," 1670s, from mystic (adj.). In Middle English, the noun meant "symbolic meaning, interpretation" (early 14c.).

According to The American Heritage New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition (2005), mysticism is defined as follows:

- In religion, the attempt by an individual to achieve a personal union with God or with some other divine being or principle. Mystics generally practice daily meditation.

.
Posted by Banjo Paterson, Friday, 21 March 2014 2:23:53 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
.

Dear Foxy,

.

I inadvertently attributed the coining of the terms “sociology” and “altruism” to Émile Durkheim (1858-1917) when, in fact, I had in mind Auguste Comte (1798-1857) who died the year before Durkeim was born. Both were French. Comte was the precursor of Durkeim.
Please forgive my confusion.

I grow old … I grow old …
I shall wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled.

(T.S. Eliot)

.
Posted by Banjo Paterson, Friday, 21 March 2014 2:54:24 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
.
 
Dear Ojnab,
 
.
 
You wrote:

“I really do not know if it just me but One Under God completely loses me …”

I think it is true to say that we all have difficulty understanding One Under God, Ojnab, but if you are willing to give it a go, I think you will find that the effort is well worth while.

If you have the patience to get down on your knees and sift through all the rock, soil and sand you will occasionally come across some very precious gold nuggets.

I, personally, find it quite rewarding.

.
Posted by Banjo Paterson, Friday, 21 March 2014 4:59:50 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear Banjo,

“Belief that union with or absorption into the Deity or the absolute, or the spiritual apprehension of knowledge inaccessible to the intellect, may be attained through contemplation and self-surrender”. (Oxford Dictionary quoted by you).

“Belief that union with or absorption into the Deity or the absolute, or the spiritual apprehension of knowledge inaccessible to the intellect, may be attained through contemplation and self-surrender. (Webster built into my Mac OS 10.9, quoted by me after leaving out for brevity the part about believing and “may be” and smuggling in “including imagination” to make the contrast to imagination more explicit.

So you are right that mysticism as such refers nor so much to an ACTIVITY of the human mind as to the BELIEF that such an activity, or, better, state of mind can point to something beyond human imagination; the difference between seeing a finger and believing that it points to something.

The word “imagination” is a specific English word (my online dictionary has eleven German words as its possible translation depending on context) and as you point out, even in English it can have also everyday meanings. On the other hand, books have been written about mysticism or the art of having mystical experiences (contemplation, meditation) irrespective of whether or not one admits the possibility of them pointing to something beyond the individual mental.

Since I never had such experiences I feel defending them like the person who is defending the importance of mathematics to express the laws of quantum physics without being able to understand much of such mathematics.

Thanks for raising the question of imagination and mysticism, although I indeed believe that we have derailed the thread.
Posted by George, Friday, 21 March 2014 8:02:14 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
george*quote..<<..Since..I..never had/such experiences..edited..mathematics.>>

THIS/IS..A PERFECT EXAMPLE..OF..THE TALK..OF ANGELS
the next is the perfect 'mind selF ego-talk..of the demons
[trying to void THIS previous wisdom..that enjOINS IS TO OTHER]

..SO...I WILL..REPLY THE NEGATIVE/of
beast-ego/MINd talk/first..

<<..although..I indeed believe..that..we have derailed..the thread.>>

thats clearLY..ON TOPIC..as many need/be..made aware..of/[what includes..a 'good' funeral..[ONE THAT SEEKS..HEALING/FORGIVENESS GRACE/MERCY..AS ITS MAIN-POINT..[GIFT]..FOR ALL Concerned]

many times..i have seen..fake greAT MEN..BURIED..under some..AURA/THAT REVEALS NOthing..of the real personal/EMBODIED evil they did..UNDER SOME/AUTOCRATIC/DE*MOC*RATIC/PROTECTIVE AURA..NOT to speak..of the dead/or/that the dead..are dead/so its..wasted EFFORT

THING IS..OUR SO CALLED FRIENDS.LIE TO US
ENEMIES DELIGHT..in revealing our feet...of clay
but..IN THE NEXT LIFE..TRUTH IS ALL THAT EXISTS..ALL PRETENSE FALLS AWAY

[THERE ARE NO SECRETS There[your soul-body allows..all the inner secrets to/be revealed..[whaT HERE YOU MANAGED'TO CONCEAL..is fully sen by anyone/everyone..and those feigning are exposed..fully completely..WITH THE MORTE..[UN-DEAD]..POSSIBLY..FOR THE FIRST TIME..REALLY KNOWING HOW LITTLE..THESE Mates..thought of him

he hears..the nice WORDS
BUT SEES THE TRuth..nice words often conceal
manY AFTER SHUTTLING OFF..THE MORTAL COIL..FIND THE enemies to be their truest friends..[once someone..'lied'..something inside them DIEd

<<..Thanks for raising the question..of imagination and mysticism,>>
anD OPENING-UP..TO the truth..by enabling the correction..of a faulsity.

see how..once we believe..a common end..the wAY of how..WE GOT THERE SEEMS MORE...EASILY Defensible..take george/FOR EXAMPLE..HE knows..the truth..OF GOD AFTER LIFE ETC..[AS DOES YU]..THUS EACH CAN DEFEND THE WAY..They each got to the truth..because our defense of each OTHERS BELIEFS..ALONE PROVIDE THE PROOF..and re-proof.

THATS WHY..THE DRAWING ON PAGE 19...[page 31?]..[and 32]..is so important..see that page 32 DEFINES OUR OWN AFTER LIFE INTRESTS[THE HOW]..just as page 31..reveals the where..[but 31 inclUDES THE POINT I JUST TRIED..TO MAKE

see please the religious groupings get fewer..
and the final division'S..is oNE GOD OR MANY GODS..

[PLEASe notE there aint a 'no god' option/FOR OF TRUTH..WE EAch will be gods/just in the thinking of it..by the thread..we built our higher sOUL BODY...BUILT UPON OUR Passions..[THAT FORM OUR SOUL].. either way.

ITS ABOUT THE WAY..AND SADLY THE UNHAPPY FUN-ERAL WENT FERAL
BUT wee COME TO BURY DEAD IDEAS..NOT praise nor erase/them

[as is the intro..page iii..[page 6?]
for its last PAGES]
Posted by one under god, Friday, 21 March 2014 8:49:42 AM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
THATS WHY..THE DRAWING ON PAGE 19...[page 31?]..[and 32]..is so important..see that page 32

http://www.ghostcircle.com/ebooks/JSM_Ward%20-%20Gone_West.pdf

DEFINES..OUR OWN AFTER LIFE INTERESTS..IE..[THE HOW]..means
just as page 31..reveals the where..[but 31 inclUDES THE POINT I JUST TRIED..TO MAKE..in previous post..OF..how once you 'KNOW'..YOU CAN SUPPORT OTHERS WAYS..TO THE SAME Knowing..[even if/in knowing THE SAME ULTIMATE TRUTHS..by the fruits..even if they came an OTHER WAY]

see please the religious groupings ]OPTIONS..get fewer..AS we get closer to the higher heaven..and the final division'S..is oNE GOD OR MANY GODS..[AND EVER MORE Messengers]

[PLEASe notE there aint a 'no god' option/FOR OF TRUTH..WE EAch will be gods/just in the thinking of it..by the thread..we built our higher sOUL BODY...BUILT UPON OUR Passions..[THAT FORM OUR SOUL].. either way.

ITS ABOUT THE WAY..AND SADLY THE UNHAPPY FUN-ERAL WENT FERAL
BUT wee COME TO BURY DEAD IDEAS..NOT praise nor erase/them

[as is the intro..page iii..[page 6?]
for its last PAGES]

We all, strange to say, are rather lonely here. We are too much alike to be
companions, and want to get on, so as to meet our old friends, who, we believe, are in
other sets.
“I am learning, but it’s slow work. I feel like a schoolboy again. It’s funny — I died
on my birthday and was really born here on it.”
J. W. “Did you know anything of your funeral?”
H. J. L. “Yes, I saw myself lying dead, and saw you come and look at me.
“Be sure and tell Carrie what, I said; that it saves a lot of time if you do believe, and
that we do live after death. I am very glad I believed as much as I did, and I wish I had
believed more.”
J. W. “Would you go back if you could?”
H. J. L. “No, certainly not. I am much happier here. I am making progress.
“However, I must be off now. It seems a funny thing to say to a schoolmaster, but I
have to begin my schooling all over again.”
Posted by one under god, Friday, 21 March 2014 9:25:04 AM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
earlier/ON..a mention..WAS MADE..[i still disagree]..
WITH..[THAT GOD..DONT EXIST]..THAT he thus..insists.../BLAH.

i referenced..the..[REFORMED?]..atheist/article/EARLIER
http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=11008&page=0

QUOTE,,..<<..We were..like those who,..in my dream,...perpetually moved around..the perimeter..[darK/EDGES]..of the forest clearing..with the circular patch of sunlight..at their centre.

And so my journey..has continued ever since...After a week of tiring, often thankless..and depressing or angering life..in the outer world, the Eucharist[Light?]gives new strength..and awareness of the abiding centre from which I draw life...I come away refreshed,..with inspiration to face the world without pretences and defences during the coming week,..like the ewe-boy.>>..

..<<God as..the Insistent Reality..>>....GROSSLY..MISS-REPRESENTS..GODS/EXPERIENCED/NATURE...[persistent/maybe..insistent/hardy]

GODS/INVERTED/INNER/INSISTANT/REAL-ITY<<..As the seat of will,..memory..>>..RUbbish..god/wills..only as we will
memory..comes via ASOSIATION/WITH HERD MIND[Ego/spirit/cloud-mind

<<...and other functions,..>>[life/living/LOGIC/LOVE/etc]

<<..the ego is indispensable..for every human personality..to live effectively..[in the world]..The great lie..that the ego tells, however,...is that it can be..in and of itself.>>..agreed

<<..It was born as..a constellation..of energy derived from –and sustained by –an infinite...and eternal tide..in the collective unconscious of humanity.>>..cLOSE-ENOUGH

<<..If the ego accepts..this indebtedness>>..TO ANCEstor/AND\THE AS YET UNBORN..<<..for its very being..it can begin to dismantle its defences,..to admit that it cannot be..without [in*ter-]relationship.>>

<<>When it'S strips down..closer to the authenticity..of the ewe-boy it encounters,..at least in some small ways,..the genuine Other from which it came..and others who also came from there...And while the authentic life...makes one more vulnerable it also opens one to a more abundant stream of love and peace.>>

<<>And so Matthew Arnold's exhortation..to.."be true to one another" is an invitation..to insist who you really are.>>BEHAVIORILLY/CULTURALY/SEXUALY/INHERANTLY?

are you/a..<<.."Truth",..regarded..from this viewpoint,..is a way of being..rather than an object..or logical conception...>>[OF OTHERLY BEING?]

<<..Put a little differently,..truth is the eternal demand..that we accept...that the ground of our..being is beyond individual ego-life and..common to all humanity.>>

good points/but poor argument..god demands/nuthin*

<<>.I call that ground>>..[being is beyond individual ego-life]..<<..of my being.."God"...>>..the root error

<<>.God is not..a supernatural entity,..[thus?]..does not exist.>>

ANY That exists..=is=..naturally..existing/By natural process

<<..But God insists..in the collective unconscious,>>
ERROR..inversion..god fully = awaRENESS/CONSIOus awarness[ever present/ever concious awaRENESS

<<..and from God..I..(ego)..came.>>
YOU/CAME..OF GOD..NOT FROM GOD..ergo..BEFORE/YOU GOT..insistent/EGO

<<>.To be true to this insistent reality..I offer these thoughts for your consideration.>>..ITS Rubbish..[sorry]..its a fad..to decieve/confOUND/CONFUSE/DIVIDE...MUCH LIke any funERAL
Posted by one under god, Friday, 21 March 2014 8:46:08 PM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
.

Dear George,

.

You wrote:

"So you are right that mysticism as such refers nor so much to an ACTIVITY of the human mind as to the BELIEF that such an activity, or, better, state of mind can point to something beyond human imagination; the difference between seeing a finger and believing that it points to something". 

To "imagine" that "something" can be "beyond human imagination" seems an oxymoron or, at least, an incoherence - which is a little surprising for a brilliant mathematician such as yourself - don't you think ?

Or is it my logic which is up the creek ?

http://www.whosdatedwho.com/tpx_62033/cheap-trick/tpx_2064561

.
Posted by Banjo Paterson, Saturday, 22 March 2014 2:43:57 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
.
 
Dear George and Ojnab,
 
.
 
You are right, we should get back to the subject in hand : « The awful funeral ».

You will recall that the author, Fra Sellick, wrote as an introduction to the subject:

“We now attend funerals in which a number of speakers are let loose on the congregation tolling the virtues of the deceased, often blubbering into the microphone as they read scripts spat out by computer printers. There are the old timers who insist on tracing the whole of the life of the dead. There are the grandchildren who get teary about Grandad or Grandma. It is all too much and too long and most often tells us what we know already or do not wish to know”.

Sounds like Fra Sellick would like to get rid of every single member of the family - friends and acquaintances as well - everybody in fact - lock, stock and barrel.

For an Anglican deacon "working" in Perth, that is a fairly cynical and despicable attitude to say the least. It just goes to show what a poor opinion Fra Sellick has of his parishioners. No respect whatsoever. He seems to disdain them !

He obviously does not want to share the centre of the stage with anyone. He wants to keep it all to himself. He obviously considers it's his church. He has no doubt that he is the only one capable of making a proper speech and everyone has to listen to him.

Of course, most people never go to church these days, except for funerals. . If Fra Sellick had his way, they would stop going to funerals too.

Who are funerals for anyway ? . Fra Sellick ? . God (presuming he exists) ? ...

I guess that's about it !

Along as Fra Sellick is happy. That's the main thing.

What did he call it ? An awful funeral ?
 
.
 
Posted by Banjo Paterson, Saturday, 22 March 2014 2:53:13 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
IF FUNERALS..NEED CONSIDER THINGS
LIKE sex/race age..and who gets..THE COLLECTION PLATE..
http://www.google.com.au/search?q=funeral+etiquette+-+the+collection+plate&oe

then surely]..A SUICIDE NEEDS*..SPECIAL CARE....AND BABIES NEED MORE attention..on those left behind..than the departed/HOW ARE THESE THINGS NOT RELATIVE?

THE dead DESERVE TO KNOW [BE TOLD]..whats going on with theM..[FOR EXAMPLE There are spirits sleeping away ETERNITY BECAUSE THE REALLY BELIEVE DEAD MEANS DEAD.]..BUT OFTEN THE DEAD..are so busy..simply getting on..THE ATTENDING OF THEIR OWN FUNERAL COULD SEND THEM Backwards/so they are prevented attending..

SIMPLY/NOT TOLD AS IT WOULD HURT THEM..[THUS MOST ATHEIST FUNERALS ARE lacking even the host spirit/departed.]..but they so LOVE THE DEAD..ROTTED CORPSE..LYING IN THE BOX

THUS THE Collosal ignorance's continue..
IS IT FAIR THE DEAD KNOW THEIR Dead?
IS IT FAIR/YOUR Negativity/prevents them attending their own funeral?

if you been living in france for the last weeK..THE FUNERAL IS OFTEN ENOUGH ATTRACTANT..TO BRIEFLY PULL THE SPIRIT..BACK..TO WHERE THINGS CAN BE MADE CLEAR..unmentioned is the manY OUT THERE LOOKING FOR THE LOST..WHO THINK THEIR IN A DREAM.

HOW WE CAN TALK of death..or a ritual/yet not taLK OF THE IMPORTANT STUFF..IS BEYOND ME..AND SURE ITS SOMETHING ATHEISTS WOULD AVOID EVEN US TALKING ABOUT..cause they want dead to mean ITS ALL over..when the reality is the game has only just begun.

to worry about pathetic SPLINTERS IN MINE EYE.WHEN YOU got riven planks emitted from thine../get over it/dead means THAT YOU CAN TAQLK OF THE Absurdities of israel..beiNG 'HOME'..OR remind the ignorant/that the life energy THAT ANIMATED THE FLESH..IS YET SUBJECT TO THE SAME LAWS OF ALL ENERGY

ENERGY CANT BE 'CREATED'..NOR DESTROYED

THAT INCLUDES WHEN SOMe insane spirit energy tears you limb from limb/BECAUSE THE NEXT REALM /REFLECTS THAT OF THYNE OWN INNER DEMONS

they gladly..TALK OF THE LATEST MOVIE OR POEM/YET when it comes to the realities ASSOCIATED WITH BEING DEAD..yet not being dead..no thing may be said..cause THE POOR IGNORANT ATHEIST MIGHT LEARN SOME NON FICTION..and see the reality..that yet lives on..[regardless of how much..or little you DID*..believe.

please do not forget..WE KNOW ENERGY LIVES ON
in a different state..AND IF YOU CANT EVEN BE TOLD..WHEN YOUR DEAD then when?
Posted by one under god, Saturday, 22 March 2014 8:12:16 AM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear Banjo,

>>To "imagine" that "something" can be "beyond human imagination" seems an oxymoron or, at least, an incoherence <<

Where did I write about IMAGINING (as distinct from “pointing to”) something that can be beyond human imagination?

I understand Sellick does not like funerals that simply celebrate the life of the deceased, whereas you and others do not like funerals with a Christian message. The simply solution is, don’t attend funerals that are meaningless to you unless you absolutely must, in which case accept that they might be meaningful to others.
Posted by George, Saturday, 22 March 2014 8:22:36 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
TO SOME OF US..THIS Is life..and dead stuff
so the THREAD DAWDLES ALONG..WITH THE thought-POLICE..SAYING STICK TO/topic/limitations/word limitations..post limits..NOT WHAT U KNOW..STICK WITH WHAT?

I want to talk of..the knowable knowns
[think of poor peter..who raised the topic.,.sure..he had a bad day/ but the dead guY..HE HAD A LOUSY..FIRST re-BIRTH/DAY..Horrid funeral

who suffered..the greatest injury?
how dOEs..being nice..now..help?

anyhow..at a funeral/who gets..the take of the..collections/plate?
should the ignorant..CHOSE THE RITE..OR CREED..OR INSIGHT GET THE ROTTED Corpse..out of mind/out of sight.?..out of my church..so i can count the plate.>?

inside the sealed box..often..is a crime scene
can we aT LEAST TALK OF BODY Snatchers..?

OR OF PEACE..being..a state of mind..
or until THEY KNOW..THE dead too/SUFFER..
[or the resale values..of the bits/looted FROM THE DEAD/OR THAT THE SPIRit..that donated the organs..retains a connection..with them..[ITS THE WHOLESALE Ignorance/the dead leading the dead.

who can you trust?..

WHO CARES FOR YOu?..the departed not dead...[THE DEPARTED..WHO ARE NOW PRESENT]..TO THINK OF THEM..SANS SUMMON..THEM/..YOU WHO KNEW THEM BEST..HOW CAN WE THUS..HELP THEM BEST...FACE Up to after-lifes karmic tests.

THE ATHEIST Spirit/..THAT ONCE ANIMATED/Vibrant..godfree-flesh..is long gone..IN FACT MANY SUDDENLY..GET RELIGION SECONDS BEFORE DEATH/BUT TOo MANY..LIE FORGOTTEN IN THE Caverns..just sleeping ETERNITY AWAY..needlessly.

how can you..be content..with ignorance
/FUNERALS INST..A NO GOD/NO SPIRIT..feel good delusional-ZONE..

ITS A TIME TO..GIVE A TEACHING/LEARNING..OF OUR EARNING....not for PREACHING..CREED IS Meaningless/and helpful tips..may be that stitch in time..[although/for MANY THATS 3 DAYS TOO LATE]..[the fun starts at the time of death/but before then..THE OPTIONS MUST BE..madeCLEAR.

atheists simply speaking are wrong...[wishful=thiNKING=DELUSION]..death donT END NUTHIN
NOW WHAT?..

[Thats why i let the dead..tend the dead..CAUSE IM ONLY INTERESTED..in the living spirit/STARTING LIFE OVER..in heaven..or hell..or the astral realm...

BAH..THE ONLY FIRES IN HELL ARE THE BURNING PASSIONS
THEY feel just like the real thing..but your hates/fears bias..KEEPS PROVIDING THE FUEL.

many will kill you attack you yes and HURT YOU
BUT THAts because their mind holds control OVER YOU
grow your mind..it comes down tO WILLPOWER AND MINDSET
AND PASSION/THE ASTRAL REALM..is pure embodied emotion.
http://www.divinetruth.com/PDF/People/Other/Jane%20Sherwood%20-%20Post%20Mortem%20Journal.pdf

P.B.s.
Posted by one under god, Saturday, 22 March 2014 9:04:19 AM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
.

Dear George,

.

You wrote:

"Where did I write about IMAGINING (as distinct from “pointing to”) something that can be beyond human imagination?"

Who, then, commanded the finger to point in that particular direction? Where did he get the idea from? His senses? His experience? His genes? His imagination? …

You also wrote:

"The simple solution is, don’t attend funerals that are meaningless to you …"

That was the point I was making when I wrote:

"Of course, most people never go to church these days, except for funerals. . If Fra Sellick had his way, they would stop going to funerals too.

Who are funerals for anyway ? . Fra Sellick ? . God (presuming he exists) ? …"

Posted by Banjo Paterson, Saturday, 22 March 2014 10:44:07 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
.

Dear One Under God,

.

The last two funerals I went to here in Paris were both Catholic funerals and there was a collection plate passed around at both.

I honestly can't remember for certain how much I put in but I think it was probably a 20 euro note each time.

At the first funeral which was for a neighbour in my building, nobody spoke during the service except the priest who said a few words about the deceased. Less than ten people attended the service, including my wife and myself.

At the second funeral, there were about fifty or sixty people. The deceased was the wife of a couple about the same age as my wife and myself. We are friends of their son's wife who is Chinese and whom I had hired to open an office in Beijing for my company.

Again, nobody spoke at the service apart from the priest who said a few words about the deceased.

Since the death of his wife, we continue to maintain close relations with the widower who now lives alone in Paris. His son and daughter-in-law (our Chinese friend) live in Beijing.

I, personally, have no trouble attending any sort of religious ceremony, whatever it is. One of the more notable services I attended was the wedding of one of my secretaries in a suburb of Paris. Again it was a Catholic service and quite a colourful event with a local rock band.

I have also attended much more formal, stately funerals for some of France's well known political figures.

I do not judge any of them and am happy to participate in whatever form of ceremony is conducted. I recite the prayers like everyone else, sing the hymns, bow, genuflect, cross myself, sprinkle holy water on coffins, wear a kippah on my head in Jewish temples, take off my shoes before entering mosques, and so on.

Unlike Fra Sellick, I accept all religious beliefs, practices and philosophies as being equally honourable and respectable - for the deceased and all those who mourn them.

.
Posted by Banjo Paterson, Saturday, 22 March 2014 10:52:57 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
WE ARE MISSING OUT..ON WHAT WOULD MAKE THE FUNERAL MORE FUN ANd less managerial..i hate the external SUFFERING SOME CLEARLY HAVE[IN THE MAIN BECAuse i know thAT REAL GRIEF..CUTS THE DEPARTED SPIRIT/TOO DEEP

and kiddies too..tHEY OFTEN SEEK TO WATCH THE REPLY..OF THE EVENT THEY WERE TOO SMALL TOO attend/then there are the forgotten/[the aborTED]..THAT WERE LITTLE MORE THAN A CLUMP of cells..[as mentioned IN GONE WEST]..MERE SPEcks..THAT died then WERE/completely FORGOTTEN

MAY BEST BE-SPOKEN..IN POEM

http://www.google.com.au/search?q=comforting+grieving+poems&i

Tears have a wisdom...all OF their own.
They come..when a person has relaxed enough..to let IT ALL go
and to wASH through his (AND her) sorrow.

TEARS are the natural bleeding..of an emotional wound,
carrying the poison out of the system.
Here-IN lies the road to DIScovery.

~ F. Alexander Magoun

I do not believe..that sheer suffering teaches..ANYTHING AT ALL.
If suffering alone reveals LIFE'S LESSON As taught,
all the world would be wiser,..but..

since everyone suffers...NEEDLESSLY..LET THE DEPENDENCE PUT UPON Sufferance..be end

To suffering must be added
understanding, patience, love, openness
and the willingness to remain vulnerable...GRIEVE IF YOU MUST
mourning,..will not LAST..LIVE FOR TOMORROW..NOT GRIEVE FOR TIMES PAST.

http://www.griefhealing.com/comfort-grieving-hearts.htm

~ Anne Morrow Lindbergh
Posted by one under god, Saturday, 22 March 2014 11:33:28 AM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
On an earlier post I mentioned death "a la naturale" that is being left to decompose naturally any where, I know this is not acceptable to society today, but my point was that if this was the case there would be no funeral or funeral service, our body returning to the elements, somebody would dig a hole, and because of the smell would inter us there, therefore religious ceremonies would not be required as nobody would know they existed, so lets face it, it is the hope of continuing some sort of being after death to the religious, as an Atheist when gone, gone, that's it.
Without any man made ceremony for the loved living relatives, which will happen with flight 370 missing, those presumed deceased people on board would just return to the elements "a la naturale"
Posted by Ojnab, Saturday, 22 March 2014 1:57:10 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear Banjo,

>>Who, then, commanded the finger to point in that particular direction?<<

Mysticism, contemplation, meditation is not about fingers that you can analyse. As I keep on saying, a metaphor is like a joke - either you get it or you don’t, rational analysis will kill it. So I should not have used a metaphor that did not convey to you what I had in mind.

Anyhow, there are heaps of literature on mysticism practiced by Eastern or Western mystics. I am not an expert on that, only understand that it is not about consciously imagining, visualising some things although visual impressions might be a side effect of that state of mind that for that mystic can point to something outside his consciousness.

You raise the problem of God’s existence (although you claim to have definitely solved it for yourself) at almost any opportunity. As you know, many (Eastern) mystics don’t believe in God of Western religions.

>> Who are funerals for anyway ? <<

For the bereaved to console them and - if they are Christians - through a more or less traditional ceremony to remind them of the existential hope that faith can provide.

By the way, “Fra” in my dictionary means “a prefixed title given to an Italian monk or friar”. I think Sellick is neither.
Posted by George, Saturday, 22 March 2014 7:17:16 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Banjo Paterson,
I do enjoy the "mock" humility you project early in a thread (so much nicer than Yuyutsu's genuine and consistent lack of it), the way you attract condescension and then nip at its approach is both edifying and amusing.
Posted by Squeers, Saturday, 22 March 2014 8:24:27 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
..."Socratic" I should have said.
Posted by Squeers, Saturday, 22 March 2014 8:26:14 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
.
 
Dear George,
 
.
 
You wrote :
 
“ Mysticism, contemplation, meditation is not about fingers ... As I keep on saying, a metaphor is like a joke - either you get it or you don’t, … [Remark: jokes can be explained and understood. Whether you find them funny or not is another matter].
 
… mysticism ... I am not an expert on that, only understand it is not about consciously imagining, … something outside his consciousness”.
 
In other words, George, for you it is inexplicable, a mystery (mysticism). For me, what you are trying to explain is simply imagination (image), a faculty, “activity” of the mind.
 
The mystic thinks he is looking at God, but it is simply an image produced by his own mind, his imagination. To employ your metaphor, he is looking at his own finger.
 
Through meditation he attains an advanced state of interior peace and tranquillity which liberates his mind from its habitual constraints, permitting new perceptions and apprehensions, associations and creations. Uninhibited imagination is just as capable of producing a stroke of genius as it is in producing illusions, hallucinations and mysticism.
 
“You raise the problem of God’s existence …”
 
I raise it for those who believe in the “possibility” of God.
 
“Fra” … an Italian monk or friar … I think Sellick is neither”
 
The English term, Friar (Fra) is derived from the Norman French word frère ("brother"), from the Latin frater ("brother") widely used in the Latin New Testament to refer to members of the Christian community.
 
In the Catholic Church, there are two classes of orders known as friars, or mendicant orders: the four "great orders" and the "lesser orders".
 
The four great orders mentioned by the Second Council of Lyons (1274) are:
 
· Dominicans, Franciscans, Carmelites, and Augustinians.
 
Unlike monks, friars are not cloistered.
 
A monk exercises his mission in a particular place. A friar exercises in a wider geographical area. As our friend, Sellick, exercises on the internet, I call him Fra Sellick.

.
 
Posted by Banjo Paterson, Sunday, 23 March 2014 8:19:52 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
.

Dear Ojnab,

.

I have been to several funerals here in Paris where there was no religious ceremony. Friends and family gathered at the funeral parlor at the hospital.

Those who so desired paid their last respects to the deceased before the coffin was closed. Then we all drove off to the cemetery where the coffin was lowered into the grave without a word being spoken. A few people threw flowers onto the coffin in the grave. Others threw a handful of soil.

In some cases, the close family of the deceased invited us to their home for light collations in order to prolong the gathering so that nobody should be left to bear the sorrow of his loss alone.

There was no church, no priest, no speeches, no god, no afterlife, and no manifestation of atheism.

.

Dear Squeers,
 
.
 
Nice to hear from you again.

You wrote:

“I do enjoy the "mock" (Socratic) humility you project early in a thread (so much nicer than Yuyutsu's genuine and consistent lack of it), the way you attract condescension and then nip at its approach is both edifying and amusing”.

I know from experience that I can always fool one or two people for a while but my appalling ignorance always ends up betraying me. Indeed, I dispose of an inexhaustible reserve of ignorance.

As it’s useless to try to hide it I adopt a low profile from the outset. Modesty is my second name. I walk in the shadows so that not even the slightest sign of light that might inadvertently emanate from my person goes unnoticed.

By disappearing into the decor I am not perceived as a threat and people tend to drop their guard. This allows me to get in the occasional “nip”, as you have observed, and I am delighted to hear it amuses you.

But now that the secret is out, it may not work anymore.
 
Posted by Banjo Paterson, Sunday, 23 March 2014 8:24:06 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
thought you might enjoy A HIPPY FUNERAL
http://www.layoutlocator.com/videos/Plantem-Funeral__lu5mGu_gy3c.html

LONG LIVE THE PLANTUM
WHO SHOWED HOW WE PLANT-UM DEEP
Posted by one under god, Sunday, 23 March 2014 9:14:14 AM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear Banjo,

>>The mystic thinks he is looking at God, but it is simply an image produced by his own mind, his imagination.<<

Maybe so, I already admitted that not all mystics claim to be in contact with a personal God.

However again, a fairer formulation would have been “the mystic thinks … but I THINK it is simply …”.

As I said, I do not claim to have insider knowledge of mystical experiences, not even a theoretical (psychological) understanding. I simply respect what those who had such experience say about it in the heaps of literature available (there are also studies in psychology explaining the difference between mystical experience and hallucinations).

>>To employ your metaphor, he is looking at his own finger<<

I agree, although the original saying goes "when the finger points to the moon the fool looks at the finger". Where we probably disagree is whether it is possible that the finger points to something as against just being part of a clenched fist.

Of course you are entitled to call Sellick what you want. I just wanted to point out that he was not a Catholic monk.
Posted by George, Sunday, 23 March 2014 9:51:19 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
.
 
Dear George,
 
.
 
You wrote :

[ >>The mystic thinks he is looking at God, but it is simply an image produced by his own mind, his imagination.<<

Maybe so, I already admitted that not all mystics claim to be in contact with a personal God. 

However again, a FAIRER formulation would have been “the mystic thinks … but I THINK it is simply …”. ]

Fairness, justice, is one of the rare principles I try to persuade myself I am willing to die for if need be. Love is another. Goodness knows if I should have the courage to do so, if ever the occasion should arise.

But in the context of our conversation on mysticism, the superior value, in my mind, is not fairness, but fact or reality. I do not seek to be fair but to correctly interpret reality, to state the facts as they are.

God is not a fact. Until he has been established as such he remains a simple hypothesis or a belief. Whereas an image is a fact, a reality of life. The whole animal kingdom, of which we are a species, all have images ,except, perhaps, for those of us who are blind from birth (that is something I ignore).

So, despite my natural inclination to be fair in all things, the facts simply cannot be denied.
 
.
Posted by Banjo Paterson, Sunday, 23 March 2014 9:07:33 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
FUNERALS..SHOULD FIND WAYS..TO PREPARE/THE SOUL..for..realising new aspects of..FURTHER/LIFE-experience...FROM./LAWRENCE../OF\..ARABIAS/DEATH EXPERIENCES..
http://www.divinetruth.com/PDF/People/Other/Jane%20Sherwood%20-%20Post%20Mortem%20Journal.pdf
Now..I feel..the necessity to fit..all these..odd adventures..together..and to/attempt to make..a whole..[COMPLETNESS]..of them.

My earth-life..already feels...more than a lifetime away;..remote and unreal..and its..CLAUSTROPHOBIC..cramping..frustrating necessities..seems/just..a bad dream...Day/night..cold..heat, inescapable hunger/thirst..-..all these/have vanished.out of..my/existence.

Here..we still have./a material\..aspect..of life..but..it wears an easier/air;..THE..hard necessities..of/LIFE..and are relaxed..or non existent...But..with this change..another set of inexorable..POSSIBILITY..has come into view.

The world..which has/now..to be conquered..is the..interior world..[of the emotions..and..the..eternal/essences..of..spirit]. Before,..[materially]..one avoided..physical suffering..if possible and/or..endured it..with what/courage..remains..if/it..was inevitable.

Now,..suffering..is of..the soul..and..the spirit..and/cannot be avoided..if it..has been..incurred...It too has/to be..borne with fortitude..and in time...and with help/cured.[REMEDIED]...Just as on earth..one speedily learned..that..fire burned, hard things hurt and sharp things cut..and there/were..limits to human-strength..and prowess,,,[so here]...a whole..new set of rules..of conduc.. has to be mastered.

There is,.in fact,..a framework..of moral law/as rigid..as the framework of/physical law..for earth...On earth I think..it is beginning..to be suspected..that the rule of law..goes beyond the physical..but...there is no peradventure..about it for us;..it has become..a matter/of daily experience...One..had better know..and observe the..rules so as not..to get hurt.

Although law..is thus transposed..from a physical basis..to a moral one,..it still operates..in../physical ways...Emotions are a visible and..tangible reality..[forming a good..or bad/soul-body,..healthy or diseased..according to..one’s..emotive-mind state.

If one..is diseased..and repulsive..one cannot.hide/the fact..but must submit...TO/ITS KARMIC/remedial-treatment...as/our..Emotions, as well as..forming..the stuff of..our/soul-bodies,..can..also/be used..as..a very real..energetic-force...

[They can be sent/out..from the body..with almost lethal effect..[upon/other etherized flesh.]..and the..discharge of hatred,...anger or cruelty..can cause grievous injury..to the one..against whom it..is directed.

In fact,..there is no longer..any need to moralize..about such things;..they are no longer./in the realm of the/abstract,..but are open..and palpable offensives..[MORTAL-SINS]..for which..a penalty/must be paid
Posted by one under god, Sunday, 23 March 2014 9:26:37 PM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
HERE..Society..is organized...on a basis of
emotional health;..the angry,..the sadistic,..the brutal
and..the jealous/GREED/SELFISH..each..have of necessity to foregather..in their own place,..because..the atmosphere they engender..cannot be borne...by others,..nor can they/themselves..bear the more..rarefied/etherized]..conditions..of the higher spheres.

the..Cure..of these disorders..comes gradually..and as..they are cured men..are able to..graduate..into better conditions..and are admitted..INto higher planes..of being...

It is..much/like...a caste system [if you like,]..but one based on..fundamental affinities..of mind/heart/soul/spirit..and never..a cast-iron system..from which there is no escape.

The path upward..is always open..and
there are..always..willing hands..to help/and..encourage any man who aspires...to tread it.

But just..as on earth..the soul begins to grow..and fills the being with strange..and unwonted desires,..so now the developing
spirit..forming within..this body of desire,..creates an unrest and a longing...for a yet further/ higher mode..of loving.

The shackles..of time/age/distance..even health/faithlessness..are..removed..it is true,..so that..the period we need..for..higher spiritual..[celestial]..growth..can be long or short.[WE/HAVE..ETERNITY]..

This phase..of living..is not bounded by any
‘three score years and ten’,..nor does..a decaying physique..put a period..to limited/development..as so often..it does on earth...

My..time/here..is my own..and I can have..as much of it..as I need;..is...another example of the relaxation..of tension..and the easing..of..earthy/pre-..conditions...
Posted by one under god, Sunday, 23 March 2014 9:27:02 PM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear Banjo,

>> God is not a fact.<<

I agree if by fact you mean something accepted as such by (practically) everybody. Neither is it a fact that there is nothing beyond what natural science can have access to, call it God or what.

One question is whether such a supernatural dimension of reality exists, another whether the particular mystic had a contact with it as he claimed. Of course, for those who ASSUME (believe) that such a dimension of reality does not exist, it indeed must be a fact that no such contact could have taken place, that the mystic’s claim must have a scientific explanation (e.g. “an image produced by his own mind, his imagination”).

I do not believe that those who claim mystical experience must have had a contact beyond the physical and mental, nevertheless I would not make a sweeping statement about my disbelief because I think human consciousness is still not very well understood by science, not to mention its metaphysical meaning or aspects (if any).
Posted by George, Monday, 24 March 2014 12:16:28 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
.

Dear George,

.

You wrote :

« Neither is it a fact that there is nothing beyond what natural science can have access to, call it God or what. »

By this, you obviously mean that there might be a god to which science has no access. And, equally obviously, the fact that there might be a god does not establish the fact that there is a god – though many may be prepared to believe it.

The Irish classical scholar, J.B.Bury, noted in his book “ History of Freedom of Thought “ in 1914 :

« If you were told that in a certain planet revolving around Sirius there is a race of donkeys who speak the English language and spend their time in discussing eugenics, you could not disprove the statement, but would it, on that account, have any claim to be believed ? »

Also, as we both well know, Bertrand Russel pointed out, in his (unpublished) 1952 article entitled “"Is There a God?", there might be a china teapot orbiting the Sun somewhere in space between the Earth and Mars, but it would be nonsensical for him to expect others to believe it on the grounds that they cannot prove him wrong.

Nevertheless, the possibility of J.B.Bury’s donkeys and Russel’s teapot orbiting in space is just as plausible scientifically as the existence of God.

As we both agree that “God is not a fact”, I guess the next best thing we can do, George, is to ask why you believe there is a God. But from what I can gather, I think you already know the answer to that and, obviously, it is a very personal matter and I don’t expect you to tell me.

So, as I have so often heard you say on OLO, « let’s leave it at that ».

.
Posted by Banjo Paterson, Monday, 24 March 2014 8:57:30 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear Banjo,

My posts here were not about why I - or somebody else - believes in God’s existence (that is a completely different can of worms) but about ACCEPTING that SOME people believe that the physical world accessible to science (Cosmos) is all that there is (as Carl Sagan puts it), and OTHERS lack that belief. The question is not about “scientific plausibility” since these two alternatives are not scientific but metaphysical hypotheses.

Bury’s donkeys, Russell’s teapot, Dawkins’ ultimate Boeing 747, God as an old man up there somewhere, are all by definition parts of physical reality, unlike the God contemporary educated Christians believe in. So “claims to believe” (whatever they are) have to be different in the two cases.

Anyhow, I wholeheartedly agree that we should leave it at that, and thank you for your incentives that make me try to better articulate my positions.
Posted by George, Monday, 24 March 2014 10:05:18 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
.

Dear George,

.

I am glad we agree to agree.

Thank you for your explanations.

I shall plunge into Aristotle's metaphysics to see if there is anything worth gleaning in there, though, I must confess I have my doubts. At least, the intellectual gymnastics his fertile imagination imposes will, no doubt, be profitable (in so far as I am capable of understanding it).

My mind, nevertheless, remains open to the possibility that all that is "natural" may not necessarily be "material" or "physical" as we know it today. It also remains open to the possibility that all that is "natural" may not necessarily be detectible by state of the art science.

It is the human concept of the so-called "supernatural" which I am satisfied is false: the concept of a creator, supreme being, God, devil, angels, daemons, saints and cohorts.

Thank you for helping me to clarify that.

.
Posted by Banjo Paterson, Monday, 24 March 2014 11:51:46 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Banjo Pat:
"It is the human concept of the so-called "supernatural" which I am satisfied is false: the concept of a creator, supreme being, God, devil, angels, daemons, saints and cohorts".

I'm tempted to agree, though even these necessarily remain an outside chance for me. Since my ignorance is (more) comprehensive (than yours?), how am I to rule anything out?
I don't even put faith in my limited sense perception; I certainly don't put faith in the cultural software I use to interpret them.
On the other hand I am satisfied there are more than enough anomolies (not to mention political blindness) to forestall my commitment to the currently popular doctrine of reductive materialism.

Altogether I favour your position, George. And I thank God (metaphorically speaking) for the great mystery that remains at the centre of life for me.
Posted by Squeers, Tuesday, 25 March 2014 7:18:29 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
the least important,,thing to MENTION..AT A FUNERAL..IS THE TRUTH /OR FALSITY..OF GOD..[funerals are much like one hand clapping]..its like a child explaining..WHY ITS COMPLAINING.. [i think much of thE CRYING..ISN'T SNIFFLING...ABOUT A LOSS..but about..whats being..thunk/spoken//said and un-said.

THAT SAID..IN THE BEGINNING..WAS NUTHIN..[VOID]darkness/DEEP NUTHIN
[thats not me saying that..but science...then LO..SOMETHING APPEARED FROm nuthin.

anyhow that something continued growing from nuthing into everything
WHEN ALL OF A SUDDEN..NUTHING CAUSED LIVING..yep life comming from nuthin living is a science iDEA..ANYHOW,,DIRT YOU ARE..and dirt is nuthin but unseen dust..and to dust you return

clearly/WE LEARN THAT THE THINGS..WE SEE ON THE MICROSCOPIC SCALE..AT FIRST non seeing..SEEM AS IF NUTHIN..but when your sight gets beTTER OR THE THING EXPANDING ITS AWARENESS..INTO YOUR AWARENESS..LO..WE SEE SOMETHING..FROM NUTHIN

now you may say..JOHAN IS YET AGAIN TELING US NUTHIN ABOUT NUTHIN
BUT GOD DONT WASTE TIME..GOD IS BEYOND TIME..just as all the mass of our reality/must have been..simply energy.changing state..its much the same for GOD..CHANGING HIS STATE..by us livinG AND DYING.

see that a life..of itself is/AS..nothing..BUT GOD BEING THAT LIFE/ONE GOD..IS IN ONE PLACE DOING silly things for no one..yet wheN GODS LIFE FORCE ANIMATES LIVES..their living..thats the energy that keeps on giving

now see EL[GOD]..YE SHALL call him emmanuel[god WITHIN ALL OF US]
AS he is best seen..by the life works/love and logiC..WE REVEAL LIVING WITHIN..BY MAKING The life without..be

yes johan just write bE
Wherever be be there is me
me..that I AM/BEING THE ME YOU ARE B\BEING
being all the beinG ALL OF..THE..NOT ME[WE]..YOU IS SEEING...SURE YOU WANT TO SEE..THE TRUE ME..AND YOU DID..BUT THEN..even..WITH A BIG BANG..YOU BEGAN SEEing the real me revealing all of yOU[THE WATCHERS CAN ONY SEE THE LIMITATIONS OF..[within].Seeing..[you..were there with-me..inside..the big-bang.../EVEN YOU COULDNT ESCAPE/YET STILL THEE DIDST..NOT SEE ME

ok so..you cant...SEE YOU
THATS WHY..WE made mirrors..
yet stil all you can see of you..is but a pale reflection..of all you in real;ity..are being..by grace..of the being..being all being...

all seeing..all in all..still MEANS..YOU CANNOT SEE YOU
JUST AS..EVEN I CANT LOOK..UPON ME..THE ME THAT I AM..LIVes to serve..you seeing you..Simply..bY WE SEEING..[Affirming]...ME.
Posted by one under god, Tuesday, 25 March 2014 8:11:01 AM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
RECALL WHEN YOU WERE READING OF THe officers..travel..when he went into the muslim realm/where those were who thought the messenger[may peace be ipon them all]..AND THEY NEDED BUT LOOK UP TO THE LIght..to se their god...there was the living emboDYMENT..

OF ALL THEIR FETish MIS-believe..clearly eraNT..
YET THERE TO WAS HE the mahamoudian/FALSE-god/HEAD..
undeniable PRESENT.. to the faithful..LIGHTING UP THEIR HEAVENS
and it wAS SIMPLY THEIR OWN CREATIVE energies that sustained THEIR OWN LIGHT[BELIEF]..

YOU RECALL OUR GUIDE SAYING THUS IS It too in many other realms IN HELL..with their own 'MESSANGER'..Lighting up their reality..[JOIN THAT WITH YOU ARE..WHAT YOU EAT]..

IF YOU want to deny the good/god within you..its ok that you see it in other.[HECK ITS OK IF YOU BEGIN BEING THYNE OWN GOOD..Too..[ITS ONLY RECOGNIZING WHAT YOU HALLWAYS..have BEEN.

ANYHOW COVER EM..WITH DURT
OR BURN THem in the pire
they dont feel any of that..ANY MORE THAN YOU WOULD CARE IF THEY BURNT your nail clippings OR THE SWEEPINGs off the floor under the barB BA CHAIR.
Posted by one under god, Tuesday, 25 March 2014 8:13:23 AM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Sqeers,

Since you are probably the only philosopher among us here, I take your words as a compliment. And an invitation:

I tried to express my ideas about physical reality in http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=14464, where I quoted Hawkins-Mlodinow:

“our brains interpret the input from our sensory organs by making a model of the outside world. … These mental concepts are the only reality we can know. There is no model-independent test of reality. It follows that a well-constructed model creates a reality of its own.”

I am struggling my way through Scientific Representations by Bas C. van Fraassen (Clarendon Press, 2008), the founder of constructive empiricism, who I suspect expresses the same view in a philosphically more rigorous form. It is not an easy reading.

As you might know, I see also the numinous/spirtiual (“supernatural”) dimension of reality (as opposed to its physical, that Hawkins-Mlodinow and van Fraassen refer to) as being approachable by humans only through models/representations based on narrative mythologies, sacred texts of this or that religion (with various degrees of historicity), or systematic theology in the widest meaning of the word.

If there is no model/representation-independent test of the physical dimension of reality, the less is there a “model”-independent test of its spiritual dimension.

As to “a well-constructed model creating a (physical) reality of its own”, the corresponding analogue would be that a religion - e.g. Christianity - with its own concepts and doctrines associated with them, also creates a spiritual reality of its own.

The difference is, of course, that one can try to adequately describe what is a ”well-constructed” model or scientific theory (this is what philosophy of science is all about), the question of which religions is “well-constructed” cannot be decided by the tools available to philosophy of religion.

[Only personal faith can decide, but here philosophy must follow Wittgenstein’s advice “whereof one (phliosophy) cannot speak, thereof one (phliosophy) must be silent.”]
Posted by George, Tuesday, 25 March 2014 9:30:36 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
IN THE BEGINNING INFINITE POTENTIAL
BEGAT limited reality..LIMITED REALITY WAS BEGETTING THAT WITHIN ITS OWN LIMITATIONS..as that limited visitation.. WAS THE EXTENT..OF HIS VISUALIZATION..then he died..AND YET THE THOUGHT DIED..NOT WITH HIM

ANYHOW..geOrge QUOTE..<<.. Dawkins' book is after all..*aimed at them*..>>

in their Limited possability

<<>.this does not represent a problem.
<<>>On a different level, the NewScientist ended its recent series of ten articles entitled "What is Reality?" rather inconclusively:

"Do we make reality, or does it make us?>>

in the beginning reality was made for us
at the end..we made our oWN REALITY..

IN THe 1 st..BEGINNING..god made for 6 day
these 6 days belong to god[he alone would recognise theM AS 'DAYS']
as god dont measure by mere days..but life teachings..oR LIFE LESSONS

IN THE BEGINNING..GOD showed us
now its up TO US TO SHOW WE ARE WORTHY
before ANY MORE IS GIVEN..GOD WOULD BE Pleased..IF WE DO IT BETTER
but then again he is just as happy..IF WE COULD GIVE It HALF AS GOOD AS fog-dog/god..HAs a given,..to us..did you leave it better than yoU FOUND IT

HAVE YOU RETOLD..IT..or put it MORE CLEAR..THAT IT WAS GIFTED to you
DO YOU SEEK TO DO IT BETTER..OR EVEN HALF AS GOOD..OR EVEN JUST try to do..all the choices lie within you.

till the day your dead..then
..your dead..[so yourt told]..yet yoU KNOW YOUR NOT
but they are deaf..to any of your other converse..get that into your HEAD.

dead means dead..if thats what you were told IS TRUE
TILL THAt day..you say..but im only energy/changing state/MEETING its karmic fate.

IM Dead..inside..sounds strange..to ONE WHO KNOWS HE ONLY LIVES FROM THE INSIDE...OUT..BY THYNE IN-SISTENCE..I HAVE MINE EXISTENCE..Exi-stance..[yet there is resistance][DEPENDING ON THE Teachings that modify..HIM OF OMNIPRESENT persistence..WHO INSISTS HE EXISTS]

dont bury the living loving god..but by SURE PROOF

FORGET REPROOF..GOD IS Common as muck..sustaining
even the least..to live out tHEIR FULL WAGE..IN PERPETual karmic luck.
Posted by one under god, Tuesday, 25 March 2014 10:21:20 AM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
George,

Gone are the days I think when anyone can claim to be a philosopher in any comprehensive sense, the field being broadly first divisible into analytic and continental and then disintegrating into myriad fragments. I'm little versed in analytic philosophy and possess only a few fragments of the other. Though to the extent I'm interested in German Romanticism I can claim to some sense of the field before it disintegrated.
It seems to me the Romantics were onto something arguing reason could attain some incisive appreciation of phenomena. Without going into it, we arguably can model reality fairly shrewdly if we're devoted to the task and rigorously filter out distortions. I have little doubt Hegel managed this, and even the materialist Marx, though what I mean is that their dialectical method was successful in conceptualising a model of reality that was at least an approach to truth. Their respective conceptions were no doubt wide of the mark but far better than guesswork and to some extent empirically verifiable. If this is so then it suggests the human mind is a priori capable of transcending its limitations and conditioning and negotiating relativism. I have my doubts we will ever solve the universe's riddles purely via empirical method--indeed empiricism per se doesn't exist, it requires an agile consciousness to extrapolate empirical data.
I think philosophy can and should continue to approach these conundrums, but open-mindedly; it's only in recent times that a line's been drawn between religion and philosophy and each should be more indulgent of the other--since neither can claim a monopoly on "truth".
I'm personally much more preoccupied with this world (whatever its basis in transhuman reality), whose ills are empirically verifiable--though all to easy too relativise in favour of present comforts or even the next world.
I'm satisfied that my cosmic curiosity shall never be appeased, and so amounts to little more than idle speculation, though I do have empirical evidence for adopting my agnostic stance; for not being satisfied, in fact being downright sceptical about reductionism.

Hopefully you can enlighten us as to your conclusions in time.
Posted by Squeers, Tuesday, 25 March 2014 1:55:24 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
.

Dear Squeers,

.

You wrote :

… “ these (the concept of a creator, supreme being, God, devil, angels, daemons, saints and cohorts) necessarily remain an outside chance for me … how am I to rule anything out? I thank God (metaphorically speaking) for the great mystery that remains at the centre of life for me”.

I shared that point of view for most of my life (except that I never “thanked God”, not having decided if there was one or not), until I retired and had both the time and peace of mind in order to be able to get to the bottom of the question.

I undertook what should probably best be described as an anthropological study of the philosophical, social and cultural aspects of religious faith. I needed to know how and why the God concept originated and developed. It was pretty much a full-time occupation for me, working late into the night, for about 18 months.

Having traced the genealogy of the concept from start to finish, the whole thing became crystal clear. I finally succeeded in attaining the enlightenment I had been seeking all my life. It was quite an exhilarating experience. I felt I had made an important discovery. Without the slightest shadow of a doubt, It was man who conceived of God and not the other way round.

It also became crystal clear that there was a constant and overwhelming need for a God. No quantity of horrors committed in his name could possibly shake the faith of those who place their hope and trust in him for whatever reason. For many, the need for a buoy to stay afloat is probably a powerful incentive.

I thoroughly recommend that you undertake such an enterprise. As Horace recommended: « dimidium facti qui coepit habet: sapere aude, incipe » (He who has begun is half done: dare to know, dare to begin !) and your friend, Kant, to add: « Dare to use your own understanding ! is thus the motto of the Enlightenment ("man's release from his self-incurred tutelage") »

.
Posted by Banjo Paterson, Tuesday, 25 March 2014 9:52:41 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Squeers,

Thanks for the historical perspective. One can do mathematics without knowing much about how its concepts have evolved. That is not true about philosophy, some understanding of its history is essential for the understanding of concepts that contemporary philosophy wants to deal with. Therefore in my article I did not dismiss Hawking-Mlodinow’s “Philosophy is dead” as a nonsense (although it undoubtedly is) but approved of the context, namely that “philosophy … has not kept up with modern developments in science, particularly physics”.

I agree that the dialectical method is an important “prism” through which to see reality. Reality that you (and Hegel etc) see as encompassing not only the physical but also the mental (studied by social sciences and humanities) worlds of Roger Penrose. For instance, there is no question that the concept (or concepts) of God involve the mental (individual as well as collective) world; the metaphysical bone of contention is whether it corresponds to something beyond the mental as well as the physical.

So thanks for reminding me of that. I seem to be too much restricted to considering only reality that can (or cannot) be investigated by natural sciences, ignoring the “mental”, i.e. human component.

I think there is a difference between classical empiricism and van Fraassen’s critical empiricism. Fraaseen is well versed in the epistomological enigmas of quantum physics, including the mathematics needed, which, of course, could not be true about John Locke’s philosophy of science. Therefore I don’t think Locke would have approved of Hawking-Mlodinow’s “there is no model-independent test of reality … (because) a well-constructed model creates a reality of its own.” Bas C. van Fraassen might.

I agree that what you are preoccupied with - applied philosophy - is more important then pure philosophy (metaphysics). The same is true in mathematics. Nevertheless, have there not been pure mathematicians speculating about “WHAT IF there is such an (imaginary) number whose square is -1” we would not have this computer and internet to communicate through.
Posted by George, Wednesday, 26 March 2014 1:16:19 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
BANJOVIE/QUOTE..<<..Without the slightest shadow of a doubt,..It was man who conceived of God..and not the other way round.>>

you made..a simple error..of perception
IT TOOK MAN..TO PERCEIVE THE CONCIEVER..PERCEIVIN HIM.

ONCE MAN Realized..that/it..he wASNT himself..DOING anything specifically..TO SUSTAIN THE REALITY ALL AROUND HIM

ITS Became bleeding obvious..THAT EVEN BLIND FREDDY COULD SEE
THAT..which..HE..tHERETO-FOre..only PERCEIVED..via others belief..then conceived the concept,..OF AN UNSEEN..CAUSE..of causes..GREATER THAN HIMSELF.

looked/upon..lightening/thunder..sun and RAIN..AS THINGS BEYOND HIS DOING..BEGAN STUDYING IT..AND THAT GREW INTO SCIENCE/THAT NOW SEEMS TO THINK IT CAN EXCLUDE HIM..FROM EVERYTHING..DESPITE/USING [abusing]..the same pEER-BASED..no go area/BIAS

I KNOW/BAH BLAH BLAH..

<<..It also became crystal clear..>>TO BANJO..as he examined oithers records of their PERCEPTIONS..LOL..IN BOOKS..[THE living good/GOD..IS NOT IN ANY BOOK/..HE DONT WRITE BOOKS..NOR CAN HE..*be found in dead words/picture/scroll nor TABLET.

the living good..CAN ONLY BE FOUND*..IN THE LIVING..ENERGIES..SUCH AS LIFE LIGHT INNER-MIND/LOGIC..[MIND-SIGHT]..LOVE..art/grace/mercy..service/peace..etc

god..of the living..NOT THE DEAD..god is life..not death/good..not bad
[EVEN A BEAST..IN A STABLE..knows its master/by hiS MASTERS QUALITIES

<<..that there was a constant..and overwhelming need>>
In the writings..written..of their experiences..<<..for a God.>>

SO far we could agree..to simply disagree
but you had to GO..that one step further

JUDGED..THUS may be judged
by the SAME..MIS-MEASURE..OF MISS-PRESUMPTION

<<..No quantity of horrors..committed..in his name could possibly shake the faith..of those..

banjehova quote continues..

[maybe]
Posted by one under god, Wednesday, 26 March 2014 8:04:46 AM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
BJ/QUOTE..<<..who place their..hope and trust in him for whatever reason.>>

OK AS I WAS WRITING THE Previous comment
i was feeling a great 'joy'..[is too bigger word/but say the opposite..of your chosen word/horror

if you only measure..'the HORROR'..[of course logic indicates a bias in your modeling..[A POINT GEORGE TOUCHES ON]..YOU CANT SIMPLY Sum up the horrors/Without too factoring in the gOOD..[THAts as good as i can put it..[you only ADDED UP/the sum of negative numbers[ignoring completely the good/whole numbers..dun..in hiS NAME..TOO

<<>For many,..the need for a buoy..to stay afloat..is probably a powerful incentive.>>..most certainly..YET..[ON THE FLIP-SIDE]
for others..ONCE THEY THEMSELVES..FOUND THE MEans..to float..above the flotsam..THEY MAY*/DECIDE TO help..buoy-u.. 'OTHER'..

AND SO..WE RETURN/BACK TO..THE FLAWED MODELING.
to have subsumed the outliers..ONTO CENTER STAGE
SELF DECEIVED..CAUSE YOU BELIEVED..WORD-FORMS..of THOSE THEM-SELVES Deceived..[thus..self-deceived]

yet one day..you will..SUDDENLY..see thaT
YOUR SURROUNDED..BY THE LIGHT/love/logic/thus the grace/mercy.

[SEE..in your/minds-eye..AN AURA]..
see/THE LIGHT..YOUR SEEING..COMES FROM WITHIN..
FROM/THERE..IT//cN EMEREGE..FROM/WITHIN..INTO THE EXTERNAL

or not

DENOTE/NOTE..god is..'found'..WITHIN..from external..into..the internal..but one day..you just see the inner liGHT..AND SEE ITS NOT OF YOU..THE QUESTION THEN arises..if not me..then who

IMAGINE..NOW..THAT..inner/knowing-light..[IF YOU Will]
whats the next..thing you do..once you see all around/YOU..IS THE LIGHT..[ENERGY CHANGING STATE]..?

ya sees him..here
ya sees..hiM..THERE..that durn/loki..OF THE HEART..IS EVERYWHERE.[ANYWHERE LIFE 'IS'.]Is the living/loving logical..reality..living aanywhere/EVERYWHERE..

liGHT=ENERGY..MASS=ENERGY..GOD=ENERGY..GOOD=ENERGY/
/HATE IS Wasted energy/..but still energy changing state
darkness..is simply absence..of REVEALED-energy..
[light reveals that hidden/concealed energy/
mass=congealed[entangled]....ENERGY..MASS]

god is ..revealed..in/that change...of state
EVEN..IF ITS ONLY A CHANGE OF OUR State..of mind

HE..IS LIGHT..SUSTAINING LIFE BY logic..into love.
IF ITS LIVING..HE WILLS ONLY TO LOVE IT...IF ITS ENERGY..HIS LIGHT WILL REVEAL IT...[NEVER CONCEAL/IT]..
Posted by one under god, Wednesday, 26 March 2014 8:14:34 AM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
MORE/UTTERANCES..FROM BEYOND..THE GRAVE
http://www.divinetruth.com/PDF/People/Other/Jane%20Sherwood%20-%20Post%20Mortem%20Journal.pdf
[THAT DUN..IN THE GRAVE..STAYS IN THE GRAVE
HE gAVE BETTER..THAN THE grave..we are saved..LETS RAVE..SAVE.

[i]..have hinted on several occasions..that
the mode.of communication here..is not confined..to the utterance..of words.

One/never needs..to express in words..any-one’s feeling for another. It is..always apparent..in the immediate reaction..of one’s sOUL/body
and..cannot fail to be read correctly.

Where there is affection..JPY..and trust..there
will be an..out-flowing of warmth..and light;

where there is polite indifference..as/LIKE..when one meets a stranger..the auric colour..will continue steady..and unaffected by the..encounter;..PLEASE/NOTE.dislike or contempt cannot be hidden; they will flow out..in waves/WINDS..Vibrations of disharmony..of confused..and muddy colour..its most pleasant..either to see..or to feel..upon one’s sensitive SOUL/body.

So the immediate feeling..will always
be fully apparent..and will need..no words.

The transmission of meaning..involves not..the emotional ASTRAL-body alone but the as-yet..imperfectly formed spiritual..LIGHT-body.

Where there is affinity of spirit..and closeness of emotional regard meaning..is often carried between friends without the/.clumsy intervention of words.

It..[ONCE THOUGHT/FELT..]..‘jumps the gap’.and is immediately and fully apprehended..as it could never be..[IE IN FULL TRUE CORRECT/CONTEXT]..THAN/if it had..to be trimmed to fit..a pattern of words.

Words are most useful..in everyday..and trivial matters and they continue..to be used..[whenever necessary.]..Our..independence of language..is only partial...but it is enough to make us realise the artificiality..of language barriers...[or rather univeriality..of our sane-mind]..

When..you can see..the..TRUE/feelings of a man
of different race..far more clearly than you can see..his ‘colour’ and you know..from this..alone..that he is friendly..and interested; GOOD INTENTION..OR ILL..that..when you can also exchange.enough meaning..to prove the kinship..of your minds then/the obstacle of language is defeated..and the fatal misunderstandings due to ineffectual exchanges..in words are avoided.[think..of it as negating..the tower.of babbling ON AND ON

ANON

I am ashamed now..to remember that on earth..I had great difficulty in my relationships..with men whom I then regarded as/inferior...I cultivated..an attitude of fastidiousness..OF SELF..which allowed me to regard them..COLLECTIVELY/Reflexively..as less than human.

One of my..most fixated..[ingrained],problems here
has been to correct..just,..this..clearly visual..attitude..REFLECTING SO CLEARLY FROM MY VERY SOUL.*

AHHH MEN..ALL WAS REVEALED
NOTHING SAID..THAT WAS NOT FOREKNOWN..THIS I NOW/OWn.
http://www.divinetruth.com/PDF/People/Other/Jane%20Sherwood%20-%20Post%20Mortem%20Journal.pdf
Posted by one under god, Wednesday, 26 March 2014 11:37:31 AM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
George,
My response above must be disappointing, but then I wasn’t going to insult your intelligence with a few throwaway lines on a subject you’re well abreast of. I’ve just read the article you linked to and am only sorry I didn’t come across it at the time. It does seem we’re on the same page. I would add to your three enigmas the simple case of consciousness as a qualitative phenomenon that’s commonly elided by reductionists. According to philosophers of mind I’ve read, both the “intentional” state of consciousness and the experience of qualia indicate “irreducibly mentalistic properties”. Apropos intentionality, there is a higher agency to consciousness which discriminates comprehensively between mere sensual register and attribution, such that the thing—a cat, say: a female, ginger moggy with a dire plaintiff meow; I recognise all this and more against the backdrop of myriad knowledge of and disposition towards cats, which I easily distinguish from everything else I know—is cast against both an abstract and experiential relief, beyond anything reducible to sensual register or cultural aporia. Similarly, the capacity to discriminate qualitatively goes far beyond the brute mechanics of taste buds, sensations of pain etc., though such is commonly elided in favour of identity theory/functionalist simplifications. It’s the very incapacity to conceive of other possibilities, of alternative or meta-physics, that informs and spuriously bolsters the doctrine of materialism as putatively unproblematic. “It is the lack of an analysis of qualia in terms that would make it a suitable explanandum of a causal/physical explanation that is crucial, and not the lack of an explanation itself” (Stephen White). Thus the same discriminatory powers that make us savants can also militate against further developing that prowess—when we’re too quick assigning meaning to the usual causes.
In short, I’m not convinced we do model reality, or at least that it’s that simple; I suspect our model is a prism (to use your word) which we can, however, look through cannily.

Anyway, we’re well away from funerals so I’ll desist. I do hope you’ll write more articles, and that I don’t miss them.
Posted by Squeers, Wednesday, 26 March 2014 5:53:48 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Squeers,

Your responses are for me never disappointing. You provide insights that are needed to complement my views from a natural science perspective (some would say bias).

For instance, in the first paragraph of my last post the “Therefore …” does not make much sense unless one precedes it with the sentence “On the other hand, philosophy cannot indulge in navel-gazing, ignoring developments in science” that I somehow lost while copying.

Thanks for the very interesting part about consciousness from the philosophy of mind perspective. I think these things must be taken parallel with approaches from quantum physics (e.g. the Penrose-Hameroff approach) or biology (e.g. cognitive biology that I know nothing about).

Consciousness is certainly an enigma or mystery for BOTH science and philosophy. I think it is related to the other mystery, free will. As I put it in the other article http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=15257 :

Whatever science might conclude about the “nature” of free will, there are reasons beyond science (ethics, jurisdiction) that compel some of us - not only theists - to believe in the reality of free will, and hence find a suitable interpretation of these findings that is compatible with this a priori belief. Similarly, whatever evolutionary psychology and neuroscience (or Penrose’s “quantum coherent states with objective reduction”) might say about the nature of consciousness, there may be reasons to seek an interpretation of them that does not exclude the possibility of consciousness being more than what science can say about it.

I agree that we got far away from funerals and so thank you again for your interesting feedbacks.
Posted by George, Wednesday, 26 March 2014 11:23:31 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
.

Dear One Under God,

.

Thank you for your detailed analysis of my post to Squeers.
You have come up with some valuable arguments, the principal of which I recognize as the difficulty of the method I employed in determining if there is a God or not.

You wrote:

[ <<..It also became crystal clear..>>TO BANJO..as he examined oithers records of their PERCEPTIONS..LOL..IN BOOKS..[THE living good/GOD..IS NOT IN ANY BOOK/..HE DONT WRITE BOOKS..NOR CAN HE..*be found in dead words/picture/scroll nor TABLET.

LIGHT INNER-MIND/LOGIC..[MIND- the living good..CAN ONLY BE FOUND*..IN THE LIVING..ENERGIES..SUCH AS LIFE SIGHT]..LOVE..art/grace/mercy..service/peace..etc ]

As you rightly point out, there is no written trace or image of god. And even under your pen, it is “the living good” (not god) which “can only be found in the living …”.

I found no trace of god anywhere. What I did find was trace of man’s concept of god, and that was a continuum practically since the first apparition of mankind up until the present day. This was revealed by my research of the peer-reviewed findings of reputable palaeontologists, archaeologists, anthropologists and historians which provide a credible reconstitution of the religious beliefs and practices of our ancestors ever since the advent of mankind to the present day.

Though that evolutionary period spanned several million years, there is amazingly little difference in the basic concept of the gods of the primeval animist religions (of which trace can still be found in many religions which continue to be practised today) and that of the god of the major monotheistic religions.

One of the main differences is that while animists believe everything to be spiritual in nature, the monotheists decided to separate their god from nature, creating the so-called “supernatural”.

Hence that enigmatic duality: god above one and One Under God.

.
Posted by Banjo Paterson, Wednesday, 26 March 2014 11:28:03 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
banjo..my present/thoughts..are led by consciousness/SIMPLE AWARENESS IF YOU WILL..I FEEL..THAT I KNOW..ONLY BECAUSE I HAve the feeling.by the same way you get feeling..[i can see it/clearly..in my mind].yet NOW NEED TO FRAME IT INTO Words.

see how if YOU CREATE..A SIMPLE CIRCUIT..YOU NEED An ENERGY/source
and a switch..to regulate..THE POWER ON/OFF..PLUS A LOAD LIKE SAY AN lIGHT Bulb..[NOW WHICH ARE YOU/THE battery/the switch..or the light]

[YOUR THE SWITCH..you can only turn off or on..when your on
your conscious/aware/in the zone..YOU FLIP THE SWITCH..AND GODS ENERGY Flows to the fruit/action[deed WORK]

IF God wasnt there..THERE WOULD BE NO NEED FOR A Switch..to turn.the energy/off or on..or modulate regulate THE ENERGY IN FLUX..[IN REALITY..THE Switch AND THE LIGHT..OR EVEN A BATTERY RETAINING THE CHARGE..are all mass..[ie energy]..[e=MC2]

goD IS THE WAY...and..MEANS OF ENERGY CHANGING STATE
NO GOD..NO NUTHIN..[OR SEEMINGLY NUTHIN]..the big bang..must OF COURSE BE A HUGE BLACKHOLE..THAT VIA OSMOSIS..BRINGS Energy..into..or out of one realm..into tHE OTHER

THINK OF THE BIG BANG AS WATER GOING INTO AN Unseen pool
as the pool fills..THE POOL SHAPE IS REVEALED..now see that god is the water/filling up many/infinite living pools..US..BUT NOt just space filling..BUT ANIMATING US.

I WAS A BIT HARSH..on the texts..AS THEY POINTED TO..the living embodiments [fruits IF YOU WILL]..of godNESS[E]..AND INDEED ITS EASIER FOR ANY TO READ..THE REVEALING/..OF/THE TEXTS..[yet every second of interacting with any life..is revealing..of the life ENERGY SUSTAINING..THEIR VERY BEING..AND AWARENESS OF BEING]..WE..MAKE/THE VIBE..OF THE WORDS LIVe...[reverberate..in our minds]..

THINK LIKE..PINGING A Laser..off the moon
except/we..UNLIKE..THE LASER/REFRACTING Mirror..MAY SHARE..IN THE MESSAGES..WITHIN THE..LASER/LIGHT-FLOW..

[THATS WHERE..'OTHER'..is so important/Affirmations]
[as jesus saID..WHEREVER TWO OR MORE ARE GATHERED..IN MY NAME..THERE Am i...BEING WHATEVER I AM IS SUSTAINING TO BE...simply by knowing the best of life/living..nature..we can find gods good nurture...Reflecting back..at me]

IT IS..as it must be
us/aLL..revealing/the TRUTH..LOGICALLY.
Posted by one under god, Thursday, 27 March 2014 9:20:10 AM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
our beliefs..[heck my be-LIEF]..have changed OVER TIME
rather than being a simple OFF/on switch..WE SWITCH BETWEEN CONSCIOUS AWARENESS AND AVOIDANCE..[finding somethiNGS INFINITELY interesting..others extremely boring..well worth ignoring..or avoiding.

I LOOK UP TO SEE A MESS..OF UNDERLINED/WRONG WORDS/..but plow ON

we cant switch off gods energy/SUSTAINING US OUR LIVING..WE CAN REDIRECT IT INTO AWARE/UNAWARE[WAKE/SLEEP]..conscious /UNCONSCIOUS/ EVEN Automatic/reflexive or base NATURE LIKE UNTHINKING BEASTS[WHO yet have awareness/thus revealing much OF OUR ONE TRUE HOLY SPIRIT

HOLY SPIRIT..AS OPPOSED TO THE INFINITE GODS
AS REVEALED AT OTHER TIMES..damn caps..we each ARE OF THE LIGHT..Potentially..SON OF THE SUN..OR SUN ..in waiting ..to reveal the holy SPIRITS LIGHT.

[i wish/you guys could see the jumble of words I NEED SORT/OUT]
but lets go on

you/said/..<<..duality: god above one and One Under God.>>
[WHY/DID I GO TO THE Error/rather than all the preceding truth?]

THE concept jars/my awareness/discharges my conscious mind flow/ITS WRING..BUT HOW TO CORRECT IT

GOD//LIES WITHIN..even oug/PERSONA/ALIAS
god..iS HIGHER AWARENESS..CAPACITY..THAN..0ug..much higher conscious..but the holy spirit alone onE..IS ALL AWARENESS..[NOW GODS ARE MANY/BUT HOLY SPIRIT..=1

in the beginning..I SOUGHT..TO BE AS ONE/UNDER THE ONE GOD
BUT IN TIME..BY FURTHER EXPANDED Awareness..i realized..other aspecTS OF UNDER GUIDED NESS..[ie all gods are under the wholly spirit]..THE ENERGY/CHARGE..IN THE BATTERY[GOD].IF YOU WILL

BUT Even these concepts need remain/MUTE

<<>>Though that evolutionary period spanned several million years, there is amazingly little difference in the basic concept of the gods"">>

too true/but banjo..'thou art god'..[for untold trillions of micro/beasts and other lives you sustain to live[by the will of your personal LIFE GIVING GOD[the sun]..ONE OF MANY SUNS OF THE FATHER[THE HOLY spirit]

<<..One of the main differences is that while animists believe everything to be spiritual in nature,..the monotheists decided to separate..their god from nature,..creating..the so-called “supernatural”.

Hence...that enigmatic..>>..miss perception..of WHAT BEING UNDER A GOD..MEANS..TO A SON OF THE SUN..THAT IN TIME..BECOMES HIS OWN SUN[in his own..lET THEIR BE LIGHT MOMENT]..AND A NEW SOLAR-SYSTEM..IS BORN

a son..of our own sun..[GOD]][light sustaining/life-
via logic./by love...[a ..de-light]..of the holy spirit..
FATHER OF THE SUN..RADIATING THE HOLY..spirits energy..into/life..via the light..[YE/SHALL..BE/AS-GOds].

[that was..the fun part/..now the EDIT]
Posted by one under god, Thursday, 27 March 2014 10:01:37 AM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
.

Dear One Under God,

.

You wrote:

[banjo..my present/thoughts..are led by consciousness/SIMPLE AWARENESS IF YOU WILL..I FEEL..THAT I KNOW..ONLY BECAUSE I HAve the feeling.by the same way you get feeling..[i can see it/clearly..in my mind].yet NOW NEED TO FRAME IT INTO Words.]

Intuitive knowledge ? Presentiment, premonition ? Unconscious knowledge ? Knowledge received biologically ?

You may have difficulties with words, One Under God, but you certainly do not have any problem with ideas which I find quite remarkable.

You add:

[I LOOK UP TO SEE A MESS..OF UNDERLINED/WRONG WORDS/..but plow ON.]

I heartily agree, One Under God. Please do and I shall do my best to capture your MESSage. You may be assured that your perspicacity largely compensates your expression.

You regret:

[ I WAS A BIT HARSH..on the texts..AS THEY POINTED TO..the living embodiments [fruits IF YOU WILL]..of godNESS[E]..AND INDEED ITS EASIER FOR ANY TO READ..THE REVEALING/..OF/THE TEXTS..[yet every second of interacting with any life..is revealing..of the life ENERGY SUSTAINING..THEIR VERY BEING..AND AWARENESS OF BEING]..WE..MAKE/THE VIBE..OF THE WORDS LIVe...[reverberate..in our minds].. ]

As you often quote the Christian bible with undisguised respect I knew the "harsh" words you employed in respect of "books" did not apply to all books without exception.

More importantly, you consider:

[ we cant switch off gods energy/SUSTAINING US OUR LIVING..WE CAN REDIRECT IT INTO AWARE/UNAWARE[WAKE/SLEEP]..conscious /UNCONSCIOUS/ EVEN Automatic/reflexive or base NATURE LIKE UNTHINKING BEASTS[WHO yet have awareness/thus revealing much OF OUR ONE TRUE HOLY SPIRIT

HOLY SPIRIT..AS OPPOSED TO THE INFINITE GODS
AS REVEALED AT OTHER TIMES..damn caps..we each ARE OF THE LIGHT..Potentially..SON OF THE SUN..OR SUN ..in waiting ..to reveal the holy SPIRITS LIGHT. ]

Central to Taoist world-view and practice is qi (chi). Qi is life-force - which animates the forms of the world. It is the vibratory nature of phenomena such as the flow and tremoring that is happening continuously at molecular, atomic and sub-atomic levels. In Japan it is called “ki,” and in India, “prana” or “shakti.” The ancient Egyptians referred to it as “ka,” and the ancient Greeks as “pneuma.”

.

(Continued ...)

.
Posted by Banjo Paterson, Thursday, 27 March 2014 11:56:39 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
.

(Continued ...)

.

For Native Americans it is the “Great Spirit” and for Christians, the “Holy Spirit” or "Holy Ghost" (or, "Wholy Spirit", if you like). In Africa it’s known as “ashe” and in Hawaii as “ha” or “mana” :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vbPHrjAn64


Having charged up your batteries (with qi ... or whatever), you then seem to shoot off into a mystical orbit :

[ Hence...that enigmatic..>>..miss perception..of WHAT BEING UNDER A GOD..MEANS..TO A SON OF THE SUN..THAT IN TIME..BECOMES HIS OWN SUN[in his own..lET THEIR BE LIGHT MOMENT]..AND A NEW SOLAR-SYSTEM..IS BORN

a son..of our own sun..[GOD]][light sustaining/life-
via logic./by love...[a ..de-light]..of the holy spirit..
FATHER OF THE SUN..RADIATING THE HOLY..spirits energy..into/life..via the light..[YE/SHALL..BE/AS-GOds]. ]

Bon voyage, One Under God !

I prefer to keep my feet on the ground - for the time being, at least ...

.
Posted by Banjo Paterson, Friday, 28 March 2014 12:05:51 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
WE MUST BECOME AWARE..OF SPIRIT
we essentially are eternal spirits/having A 'MORTAL LIFE/death..experiences..VIA THIS FLESHY Communications]..[home for infinite life-forms..THEMSELVES..modifying..OUR Emoting..via[sickness..etc]

WE ARE NOT HERE..TO JUST BE US..[around us ALL..are infinitude of spirits..aND..WE INDIVIDUALLY Represent/vocalize..commune[]..FOR multitudes.. when we speak..WE SPEAK FOR MULTITUDES..OF unseen spirit..who co-OPERATED TOGETHER TO..'give us[inform/us]..our reality'

THATS SPIRITUALLY SPEAKING..[at minimum..we need..MINIMUM/OFtwo opposites TO MAKE ONE..[in the/ONE\flesh..];..you/me..etc..it took a minimum..of two.

think of the INTERNAL DEBATES..WE CAN HAVE..IN SAY Buying something..or doing something..that internal CONVERSATION..ISNT ALWAYS STRICTLY INTERNAL

but because affectingly we are all Siamese twins..with other LIKE INTENDED SPIRITS...bound together by one common LIFE/LEARNING..[TILL DEATH WE DO/de-part]

to keEp the focus..to a specific poiNT..I PREFER..
TO WORK..OFF MY REACTIONS..TO OTHERS WORDS..SIMPLY RECORDING..THe reactive/flow.

EG../Banjo/quote..<<..Intuitive knowledge ?>>
it seems more than mere..KNOWING..ITS intuited..BY/feeling/im advised..that we each have 'INTERESTS'..THAT WE ATTRACT/ENERGIES.. THAT ENJOY THE Same things..IM FORCED to learn..much..THAT ACT AS KEYS..that react to ..<<>.Presentiment,S..>>

that seems a correct word..as the right words at the right time..SYNChe up..MUCH LIKE SYNCHRONICITY..except via many fold divergent means..SIGNS..by design..is possibly..nearer..

but..ITS NOT<<..premonition ?>>..as much..in the moment/recognition...of what is..presently/being...SEEM/AS..what it is..that leads..to the next like preciser SIGNIFIES PRE-cognition.. [its the awareness..that THAT/REACTION/follows..THIS\action.

MUCH OF IT Appears..from nowhere[out of left field/UNEXPECTEDLY..I OFTEN BEGIN THINKING ONE WAY/..THEN the flow directs it completely off that inputUS

ITS/sublime/SUBLIMINAL..RATHER THAN,.,<<>.Unconscious knowledge ?>>
OR NOt even..<<..Knowledge..much as feelings..or rather recognition..of the feelings not my own..[i think..OF IT AS GUIDES..SENDING ENERGIES..PERHAPS <<..received biologically>>by/strong/DIRECTED..EMOTING

I Re-ACT..TO THE WORD..I SEE[picture]..THE WORD..
IN MY MIND..IT..BECOME IMAGE..I..then reply trying to EXPLAIN..HOW THE WORDS CHANGE..IN THEIR..EMOTIVE/REACTIVE..VISUALIZATION..I RECORD..INto word..[BUT THE DAMMCAPS/put emotion..WHERE EMOTING ISNT INTENDED.
Posted by one under god, Friday, 28 March 2014 7:27:42 AM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
banJEHOVA/QUOTE..<<..>>As you often quote the Christian bible with undisguised respect I knew the "harsh" words you employed in respect of "books" did not apply to all books without exception.>>

I DONT...TREAT ANY..'BOOK''..AS GOD..i respect.the living energy that fixated.../thus..thought into word..and treat all texts as if written..to record honest INTENTION..[MORE FACT THAN Fiction]..

like a holy/text maY BE 'PRESUMED'..TO HAVE Mention..of that holy[as sacred texts..too/*may..record that sacred/..just as books of accounting hold account..its not..just the words..THEY Record but their SPIRIT...[SPELl../SPELLED-OUT/DISPELLED]

BUT EVEN..better..they STAY LINKED..TO THEIR AUTHOR/spirits
to read/the WORDS..VIA THE INNER-VOICE READING THEM/OFTEN IMPUTES Feelings emotion..often not directly linked to the spellings..[order]..of the letters.

for example..*words..[ARE]..letters are spelled..to form..sound shapes
to input the vibe..[so to speak]..i think cadence is another..

[where im trying to get.from here..is that words literally are spells..incantations/chants..setting up..a vibe/every bit as relative to the spoken voice..AS/PRAYERS.

[THINK..like a recording/'groove..moving an audio needle]..except the peaks AND TROUGHS..[OR THOUGHTS/MADE..WORD]..CAN MELD..ACROSS SPACE AND TIME..TO SYNC-UP WITH THE AUTHORS..[SPIRIT/..SPIRITUS]..MIND INPUT ENERGIES.

A GOOD AUTHOR..CAN THUS CONVEY..THE VISUAL OR AUDITORY OR SENSUAL INPUTS..INTO A COLLECTIVE..[SPELLING/OR..DISPELLING]..that syncs the mind of the reader..to the source/that inspired the..ORIGONAL/communion..

and the source..all ways is internal...[croSS/SEEPAGE IF YOU LIKE FROM.THE HOLY..Spirit].. CHI/SOURCE...linked in..[*._.*]..to..us all.

as i read..im often aware of whats my re-action..emoted
from the imputed emoting..in the texts..[anyhow for me the reason/the texts are sacred..is the living spirit..is codified..into the words..for ever

ETERNALLY CON-JOINED is the spirit..of the words
as spelled out..WITH THOSE WORDS/VIBE..allowing the 'dead..to commune accross time and space

[reading the text..in spirit..reveals more than the words..alone
but importantly..allow the author further input/further modification/in real time..as each word is appreciated[its fruits are tasted..once tasted/never wasted.

damm caps/../they indicate an insane certitude..where gratitude was intended by this entente..anyhow how this inks to the fun-f-eral..is speech has captured the same SPIRIT CHI LEAKAGE..LINKED BACK TPO SPECIFIC SPACES AND TIMES..all must ENJOIN THAT LINKAGE TO PLACE[AS THAT SEEMS IMPORTANT..TO THE ONE WHO IS AT EVERY PLACE/

ANYHOW..[WHATEVER]
i only really..only..wanted to activate the link

<<..More importantly,you consider:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vbPHrjAn64
Posted by one under god, Tuesday, 1 April 2014 7:19:27 AM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Has OUG frightened off the writers to OLO, except for my namesake, each and every time I open the IPad I quickly shut it down, as mentioned before I prefer not to read the writing oF OUG, I have tried but to no avail.
Writing to me is short and to the point, where trying to sort something out, and the article is long, boredom sets in before I have read the first paragraph ,having attended classes on response to a writing, short is the answer, perhaps I am a one off as others may prefer the way you write, no offence meant.
Posted by Ojnab, Tuesday, 1 April 2014 2:20:30 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
dear oj..no comments since friday
so i wrote to prompt further discussion
but clearly the topic is mute..OVER AND OUT.
Posted by one under god, Tuesday, 1 April 2014 3:12:20 PM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
YEP..IM THE DRUNK SUKKING THE LAST DREGS
from the bottle..to my shame..i just googled funeral joys
but didnt get that sick sinking feeling as we see the box fall gently from sight

[im angry that so many 'died peacfully'[in their drug induced sleep]'
they 'sleep' 23 hours a day..its a managment thing or cost affective..its great income..

anyhow from the disappointment of the joys fun search
i went the fads..and yep there are fads..
http://www.carnells.com/help-support-article.aspx?id=51

so i thought i would try a search for what/makes the fun/bad
http://www.google.com.au/search?q=FUNERAL+bad

but cleaRLY GOOGLE SEARCH TERMS BEEN HAD
SO AS I CANT GIVE UP..lets go..funeral sad
that search reveals an angel?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwGzQ2dP0DU

so i change sad to spirit..
http://www.google.com.au/search?q=apirit+appears++funeral&ie=u

and finally some meat/finaly a search term the mind can eat.
[sorry about feeding you milk or lesser than milk/whey;..permeate]

anyhow THE TOPIC IS DEAD AND BURIED
death soon will be commonplace..end times are like tHAT
my guides tell me mass burials are the worst..if you thiNK ON FUNERAL CAN BE 'BAD'..YOU AINT SEEN NUTHIN...YET,..its good you cant see the end/time/burial plan.

one size/fits all coffins..to fit one big fat slob
or up to 4..skinny adults or up to 8 kids.or 16 dead babies

you aint seen nothing yet
fads..reveal the cads.-
yea/ya can take a joke too far
but in the end..it all ends with death
whether its false belief or ego body attachment with the flesh..

THE SPIRIT ENERGY PERSISTS..on that you can depend..
when YOU 'WORK'..WITH THE DEAD THINK OF THEM as they really ARE..
newborn/spirits/../living on..in the soul-forms their lifes living loves hates spites and works..created]..

IF YOU DONT..really believe it..dont even/think ill/of it
Posted by one under god, Wednesday, 2 April 2014 8:07:40 AM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
let the topic die johan
but there is so much more to talk of to peter
[re yesterdays presentation..of the lapus lazeri orb for george.

brilliant[i trust peter]..that peter signed the finance treaty re the seed of life and the queens coin/for when the money system..[paper money system fails..her royal highness has tested out the concept by the trial minting..now pappa has passed on the orb..of union..where we before were divided..now..we are half the world

1 billion catolics..[plus russia]
plus 2 billion in the common wealth/under one coin based money system
[we reface her royal highness debased coin back to true value[add two zeros/thus one cent becomes i wikiseed[tree of life seed or whatever/and the seed for the tree of life is set at one dollar/per seed]..its local lawfull tender

issued via the education SYSTEM..[WHERE SMALL FIEFDOMS/WITH HONORS AND ROYAL ARMS AND ALMS..REPAIR RESTORE UNDER WRITE AND OTHERWISE INDEMNIFY THE CHILDREN OF GOD..and of the common weal/under the commonb wealth/in union with the many/divided [houses].. of christ

what we have done..is restore a system china can join into
we appoiny george his birth right..and set the world to reurn to justice to all

that ye do to the least we did to god
make war no more[the armed forces will be on a repair restore educate house feed and heal...

the..per-mission?..restore that destroyed by time tide and war
[establish schools/fund/then/protect..everyone..run all govt out of schools][see sun treaty/

schools run by mens womans circles[and secular]
it all comes together/by george]

continues?
Posted by one under god, Friday, 4 April 2014 10:09:31 PM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
its just a shame..he isnt recieving the kings blessing in nz first
the elders..here..too/could bless him..in canberra/either on the state stone..ot the square at ate..but what the heck..it shall be as its meant to be once we figure to do as its done in heaven

ie one punishment[banishment][of the..whole family]
uproot/the tree..for deliberate..d intentional hurt

send savages/into the savage lands..[save them/redeem thyself].
apart from that..the state..is there..[exists]..to return anything\g stolen/or broke..[ie retain..the value of our common wealth/health housing skills talents etc..

under george..the benovolent/we need know war..no more.
[its close peter]

what do you do..if what has been asked.has become..a given
or presented..as a believable reply/affirmative

but we are hurting hugely..your majesty
ITS FUNNY..HOW..folks know we live..in amazing times

like just a day ago..the queen of..the common wealth/met with the pope
[7 th pope..apparently..but the point is..the father gave the ptince georges grandma..a lapis laxuri..orb..[plrus/malteaze-cross
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRFDqqM_WMKfjx03n4Mecu03xAPewGwJ1n_dQHoa6n34KFPwQcmMuo4dFY

[and i been..fact checking up on it]
what does the words say?

what is..a sharp cross
it looks like malteaze/cross
http://www.google.com.au/search?q=+stone+orb+topped+with+a+sharp+cross

its has high..'sign'..signification..hrh may not know..
but doth phylum even know the meaning of the 3 coins.[orbs]?

anyhow/quote/link

<<>.For example, if we gaze on the Lapis Lazuli-orb of Gabriel, the Divine Messenger,..a sacred oracle opens through the lineage of the wisdom traditions,..and as though from God’s voice itself.
..This oracle moves us through the sands of time, to a far distant memory of the Atla Priests of Atlantis, through to the Ancient Egyptian Gods, then on to the Greek and Roman Gods and Goddesses. After a period of darkness, the line once more reappears through the light of Carl Jung’s extraordinary work, through the aspects of the 12 Archetypes he brought to our attention.

You will also see against the orb, a sacred sigil that contains, in geometric form, the essence of the Angel’s heart. Sigils are ancient mystical symbols that hold the force of an entity. In the second oracle the ANGEL HEART SIGULS, the Angels of Atlantis have given us powerful teaching about the heart as the seat of the soul.>>..

http://www.mindbodyspirit.co.uk/blog/the-angels-of-atlantis-stewart-pearce/

http://www.mindbodyspirit.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/AHS-Gabriel-708x1024.jpg

http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/queen-gives-honey-to-pope-who-has-gift-for-prince-george-504197
Posted by one under god, Friday, 4 April 2014 10:16:28 PM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
  1. Pages:
  2. 1
  3. 2
  4. 3
  5. ...
  6. 24
  7. 25
  8. 26
  9. All

About Us :: Search :: Discuss :: Feedback :: Legals :: Privacy