Hi Pete,

Phew, well we got the kids off to bed but I guess tomorrow’s another day?

From my perspective I hope Obama is going cold on any strike against Syria, so too the French and the POMS.

My take on this is that the big threat to the West is the creeping alignment in the ME with Russia and China, which threatens both the resources and strategic geo-political status quo of the West. This possibly explains their reluctance to walk away.

Perhaps it is time for the Russians, Chinese and the UN to do the heavy lifting. Let them come up with the solutions for a change. Let them face the global criticism, let them try to get resolutions through the UN Security Council and face the veto, let their electorates carry the financial burden of being the worlds’ policeman and let them face the challenges of an out of control sectarian conflict where there are no winners.

The West has been carrying the public angst of the losses inflicted on our Armed Forces so perhaps it is time to say OK, over to you, see if you can do any better.

Disengagement is only a real threat to the West if the East thinks it can actually do better, let them have a crack at it

Hi spindoc

Yes wouldn't it be great if Russia and China were as liberal internationalist as the US.

Not going to happen unfortunately. Authoritarian Russia and China may take some decades to be mature enough to act benignly.

I hold more hope for China than Russia.

Drawing from http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/08/29/9-questions-about-syria-you-were-too-embarrassed-to-ask/?tid=pm_world_pop

Russia is Syria’s most important ally. Russia blocks the UN Security Council from passing anything that might hurt the Assad regime, which is why the US has to go around the UN if it wants to do anything.

Russia sends many weapons to Syria that make it easier for Assad to win militarily and will make it much harder if the outside world ever wants to intervene.

Putin feels warm and fuzzy about Assad because:

1. Russia’s last foreign military base is its naval/sigint base at Tartus

2. Russia still has a bit of a Cold War national insecurity, which makes it want to remain in alliance with its few remaining allies, like Syria.

3. Russia also hates the idea of “international intervention” against countries like Syria because it sees this as Cold War-style Western imperialism and ultimately a threat to Russia

4. Syria buys a lot of Russian military exports, Russia needs the money.

Iran support the Assad regime because Iran perceives Israel and the US as serious threats and uses Syria to protect itself, shipping arms through Syria to the Lebanon-based militant group Hezbollah.

Iran is already feeling isolated and insecure; it worries that if Assad falls it will lose a major ally and be cut off from its militant proxies, leaving it very vulnerable.

So far, it looks like Iran is actually coming out ahead: Assad is even more reliant on Tehran than he was before the war started.

Israel also has some agendas in quietly supporting Western airstrikes in the Middle East.

Pete, you really need to broaden your reading. Relying on the Washington Post is not going to advance your understanding and the points you cite are all contentious. There are a number of sources you could go to, including Robert Fisk of the Independent, Pepe Escobar of Asia Times and Juan Cole to name but three. All of them have a more nuanced view of US/Israeli policy in the Middle East.

One of the things that most concerns me about the preceding 12 pages of comments is that almost no-one seems to have the least idea of international law. The UN Charter provides only two possibilities for an armed attack upon a sovereign nation and neither of them exist here.

The so-called R2P doctrine is constantly misquoted. Even that "humanitarian" intervention requires the approval of the Security Council. Manifestly that is not going to happen.

There is also the rather fundamental principle that policy should be based on evidence. Although the Americans claim to have "evidence" that the sarin gas attacks were carried out by Assad's forces, they have not actually produced a shred of evidence to support that. By contrast, there is plenty of evidence to suggest that the gas attacks were carried out by or on behalf of the so-called rebels.

It would also be a welcome change if commenters recognised that the Americans decrying chemical weapons attacks is the height of hypocrisy given their conduct in this field over the past 50 plus years. We share that hypocrisy. Where was the outrage for example, when the Israelis used chemical weapons in attacking Gaza?

The Syrian situation is enormously complex and that complexity is not elucidated by the overwhelming mass of comments on this thread.

Oh, OK James O'Neill. So, it is against international law for the yanks to stop Assad from dropping poison gas on civilians? Righto then. Then I suppose he can keep gassing them, can't he

The US Government..[in..the pocket of israel/lobby]..faces a severe crisis..of credibility..of their own making...And such a crisis..can only get worse..with a government trapped into perpetuating wars..and with no other option..than..to sell those wars...with..more lies and deception...

the peoples reaction
http://www.sott.net/article/265697-Time-lapse-map-of-worldwide-protests-since-1979-shows-major-increase-in-global-social-unrest

The US/israel Government's..are going to go ahead with the attack on Syria,and somehow..they need to drag Iran into it..in such a manner that..no excuses need be made..to the American people..expected to pay..and die for that war.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/2013/08/eric-margolis/remember-us-war-crimes/

There is only one way..I can see..how they might do that..but before I get into..the details,let's take a quick look..at history.
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/nextstepsyria.php

There is nothing new..in a government lying to their people..to start a war...Indeed because most people..prefer living in peace to bloody and horrific death in war,..

any government that desires..to initiate a war..usually lies..to their people..to create the illusion.that support for the war..is the only possible choice..they can make.

http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2013_09_01/US-media-uses-psychological-programing-to-influence-public-opinion-on-Syria-7773/

President McKinley..told the American people that the USS Maine had been sunk..in Havana Harbor..by a Spanish mine...The American people, outraged by this apparent unprovoked attack,..supported the Spanish American War.

The Captain..of the USS Maine..had insisted the ship was sunk by a coal bin explosion,..and an investigation..conducted in 1975 by Admiral Hyman G. Rickover,..the father of the nuclear Navy, proved that such had indeed been the case.
http://www.steelnavy.org/history/items/show/149
*There had been no mine.

Hitler used this principle..of lying..to his own people many times..[recall crystal nacht]..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Gleiwitz_radio_station

to initiate..an invasion..he told the people of Germany that Poland had attacked first and staged fake attacks..*against German targets.
http://whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/poland.mp3
The Germans,..convinced they were being threatened,..followed Hitler into Poland and into World War 2.

FDR claimed Pearl Harbor..was a surprise attack.
It wasn't.

The United States saw war..with Japan as the means to get into war..*with Germany,..which Americans opposed...So Roosevelt needed Japan to appear to strike first.

Following an 8-step plan
http://whatreallyhappened.com/McCollum/index.html

..devised by the Office of Naval Intelligence, Roosevelt intentionally provoked Japan..into the attack..he even held..the secret japanese code books.
http://investmentwatchblog.com/why-is-obama-terrified-to-wait-for-un-official-report-on-syria-chemical-attack-video/

gulf of tolkin
http://whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/CRASH/TWA/TONKIN.html

complicity..all round
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/israel-deploys-nuclear-weapons-on-german-submarines-a-836671.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCXixYE2C1A

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=5984#171039

Dear James

I found some of your reading and views rather, would one say, simple.

Having discovered the genius of "Posted by David G, Sunday, 1 September 2013 11:28:46 AM"

I would suggest you peer into the looking glass and dub thee Option "4" - gibbering cretin.

Perhaps expose yourself

to the longer versions of "one under god's" all too brief posts

for all eternity :)

Yours

Edward I "Longhunk" Plantagenet

(noting Blanche's new book about my clan http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/books/middle-ages-love-is-a-battlefield-20130829-2stku.html ;-)