Dear OUG,

You have a right to post what you like.

I have an equal right to either leave this thread, to criticise your posts or question your beliefs.

There is no reason I should respect Christ, Mohammed, Moses, Buddha or any religious figure in any religion. I should treat all human beings fairly, but there is no reason I should respect any kind of religious mumbojumbo. I respect your right to believe whatever nonsense you choose to believe, but there is no reason I should respect those beliefs.

There are tales in the Bible about Jesus turning water into wine. There is no reason to think they were not stories made up by humans in the same way other fairy tales are made up. One may believe in miracles. A billion people may believe in miracles. That does not mean any miracles actually happened.

One of our problems as humans is failure to realise that like any other species we cannot increase in numbers indefinitely. If we fail to take rational steps to limit our population famine, pestilence and war will do it for us. If we fish out the oceans or continue to eliminate other species we will be unable to recover the fish or recover the other lost species.

We may refuse to recognise that we have only this life and make up fairy tales about an afterlife. Those who live in misery will not have a second chance after they die whether or not they believe in an afterlife.

Like the other animals we are driven by the need for sex and food. If these needs are denied we may express our frustration in harmful ways or starve.

We can deny that we are animals. Nevertheless we are animals.

dear/david..by your own words..bible=fiction
you need read less fiction..not more

knowing how the simple..love simplicity

some base education..some..non-fiction..for your edification
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p01j5xb1/More_or_Less_The_Hawthorne_Effect/

Tim Harford tells the story of the Hawthorne Experiments, one of the most famous social studies of the 20th Century. The finding – that workers are more productive if they are given attention - became known as the Hawthorne Effect, and gave rise to the human resources sector.

But did the experiments really prove the existence of this effect? Tim Harford speaks to John List, author of The Why Axis, who has tracked down some of the original Hawthorne data. Presenter: Tim Harford Producer: Ruth Alexander

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawthorne_effect
Parsons defines the Hawthorne effect as "the confounding that occurs if experimenters fail to realize how the consequences of subjects' performance affect what subjects do

till someone dared look..for the numbers
http://thewhyaxis.info/

non fiction reading is highly recommended

http://thewhyaxis.info/gap-remake/
Mind the Gap

http://thewhyaxis.info/france/
‎The Role of Data Visualization in -
http://thewhyaxis.info/occupy/
‎A Movement of Numbers

Dear david f,

>>Self-awareness is a component of consciousness<<

This is more or less what I wrote when I quoted: “Penrose sees awareness as the “passive aspect” of consciousness, the active being free will.”

< dear/david..by your own words..bible=fiction
you need read less fiction..not more>

Dear OUG,

Since you don’t know how much fiction and non-fiction I read and don’t know what my needs are I don’t know on what basis you make the above statement. I am careful of my words. I doubt that I wrote that the Bible equals fiction. I wrote that the Bible contains fiction. If you quote me then quote me accurately.

I certainly would not tell you that you need to read less fiction or more fiction.

There is much more to reading than whether our reading matter is fiction or non-fiction. Fiction may be nothing more than entertainment or it may deepen our understanding. The same thing is true for non-fiction.

I think you might be able to use some training in critical thinking.

I hadn’t heard of the Hawthorne effect, but it seems reasonable that it exists.

< But Mayo says it is to do with the fact that the workers felt better in the situation, because of the sympathy and interest of the observers.>

Anybody feels better if they know that they have the sympathy and interest of the observer. That goes for you and me, too.

Industrial engineers are well aware that workers feel better if they have the sympathy and interest of management. One way of showing such sympathy and interest is to change their surroundings. Painting their cafeteria will generally result in an increase in productivity.

I don’t know how the Hawthorne effect alters anything I wrote. Certainly experimental subjects respond to the sympathy and interest of the observers. However, although that response may alter their reactions, it does not give them additional capabilities.

< This is more or less what I wrote when I quoted: “Penrose sees awareness as the “passive aspect” of consciousness, the active being free will.”>

Dear George,

How do we know when we are acting from free will? Was it a compulsion that I responded to your post? Was I free not to do it?

errors come..into being..when i-am trying to be..brief
when..i/go into..full..detail..it gets messy[you have said words to the AFFECT..that its myth..and..plagiarized from others..
http://alethonews.wordpress.com/2013/10/10/how-archaeology-killed-biblical-history/

there is doubt...about anything.

A substantial..prehistoric European ancestry
found..amongst Ashkenazi maternal lineages
http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2013/131008/ncomms3543/full/ncomms3543.html

The origins..of Ashkenazi Jews..remain highly controversial.
but..heck..no-one..can/be perfect
http://www.upi.com/Odd_News/Blog/2013/10/11/Jesus-misspelled-on-Vatican-medallions/6491381507915/?spt=mps&or=1

i feel..much better clarifying..translation..and talking of things..like freewill..than talking off stuff like this
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/ATHEISM/inquisition.php

david..you/must know..i..respect..many..things about you
but..if you..hurt me..i must return..the slight[mostly..i turn..the other cheek..reasoning..love the man..but..hate the abstracted/error]

anyhow..i..trust..the education..of the jew..[like helen..who heard jesus speak..to..her..the text of acim[a course-in miracles]..that..even..if only lire..has much detail relitive to georges and yourn..conversations

so i..know..this search term offers much thought food

http://www.google.com.au/search?q=acim+freewill

via that..i find this..[search able urtext]

http://courseinmiracles.com/6-distinction-between-miracles-and-projection/urtext/1-introduction-to-miracles/distinction-between-miracles-and-projection

Free will is..the attribute of the mind,..NOT the Soul.
The Soul..always remains changeless,./.because it never leaves the sight of God...The Creation of the Soul is..

but.. i..see that would be resisted
so go another
http://courseinmiracles.com/10-the-authority-problem/urtext/3-retraining-the-mind/the-authority-problem

If this..has been the result of..his own free will,
he must regard..his will as/if it..were NOT free,..or the obviously circular reasoning..of his own position..would be quite

but then..i recall..we were talking..of awareness..or consciousness
but now have been redirected..but such..is the value..of peers..we collectively..have much to assist each other with..

i like to think..together..we are greater..than our parts..[but see this tiny example of sharing..thinking how much greater..all in the heavens/hells sharing..that we know of the ghreat unknowable..[knowable..only by his works..nature nurture..the beasts and everything

but we arnt..beasts..[not by a long shot]..
beasts..chose ignorance..[challenging me on that..would reveal much]..yet..if we CHOSE*..to look a little higher..collectively..reflectively..peacefully..so much more could be divined/together.

i see evolution..as the spirit ideal..
that trickled down from heaven..grasped at desperately..by those in the darkness..to..negate god..cut off nose..to respite..loss of face

i..feel time ends..when..god sees he dont egsist
and disappears[departs..leaving me to figure out how to do all that god did..

[all the automatism automorphism
autonomous nature/nurture gravity stuff..and we shrink..back gently../into nuthin..[the inversion..of the great expansion..[big-bang]

to start yet again..from scratch
till.that time..we collectively..get it right.

we..all..KNOW/what mreans..free-will..conscience and awareness...but not higher-conscious..[mind..spirit..etc]

the hawthorne/affect..has feet..of clay
as revealed.,.in...this book

till..someone dared..look..for the numbers
http://thewhyaxis.info/

according to..this bbc program
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p01j5xb1/More_or_Less_The_Hawthorne_Effect/

i too..KNEW..nothing..of it..till
my guides awoke...me from..my slumbers..*to hear it
5 minutes..before posting..the info.here..for clarification

i..had no freewill..in doing this
because i asked..for the proof..before lying down

if..we ask..god..to not exists..[for us]
he..does so..if so..you can never know

[why..its your right..to deny]..what you really are
[an eternal-living life force..having a materialized life/death experience]..your choice=your life...[because we..were..too humane..to remain/beast./.or REVERT..to beast nature;.

[see gone wast]..

but*..not humane..enough to..realize that..eternal..good/grace/merciful at-one-ment..po-sible..beyond material manhood...and beast nature

anything..we may..think to ask..has already..*been replied
we just/need chose..OURSELVES..what quietens..*our heart

lets go freewill
http://acim.ie/free-will/

In Heaven..there can be..no free will,
for..how can the Son of God be free..to choose when there is literally nothing..[when..its all good]..there..to choose from?

In a non-dualistic reality,..which is..the state of Heaven,..there is only perfect Oneness.[infinite/living/loving]

That is why..A Course in Miracles states..that the Will of God and the will..of His Son are one..and the same..And so there can be nothing else,..and therefore nothing..to choose between.

Moreover,..the process of choosing..has meaning only within a subject-object world:..a subject who chooses..among different objects,*all perceived and experienced..to be outside the mind..that chooses.

of course..my method..uses split/methodology..[duel-source]
posted..details..of a theory..WERE..at off site link
http://www.celestinevision.com/celestine/forum/viewtopic.php?p=15136#15136

but that got..immediately censored/shut down..cause science dont use it..cause they..need to spin..the numbers to meet science peer agenda
[and the conversation..became a musical]

<<Split-Half Reliability:..A measure of consistency..where a test is split in two..and the scores for each half..of the test is compared with one another.

If the test..*is consistent..it leads the experimenter..to believe that it is most/likely measuring..the same thing...

This is not to be confused with validity..where the experimenter is interested...if the test measures..what it is supposed to measure.

A test*..that is consistent..most likely is measuring something;*!*
..the experimenter just..does not know what..that "something" is.

This is why it is said..that
reliability*..sets the ceiling..of validity*>>

this names..what i..have always sought to do
verify..verify verify..lest i be accused of deliberated/deception]..that instills..stains upon...our very soul

freewill/free-choice..[non-compulsion]..is that sacrosanct