.

Dear George,

.

« In my understanding, free will is an important concept but it is not a scientific concept, ... »

.

You may recall that I defined it briefly as “autonomy” in one of our previous exchanges -http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=15257&page=8

Let me explain: :

Free will is a functional advantage developed by nature. It is an evolutive mode of functioning. We have long surpassed all other forms of life in terms of autonomy and continue to make progress, generation after generation. Though there may be important differences in the rate of development of autonomy among individuals due to all the variables that contribute to its evolution, progress is nevertheless achieved during the lifetime of each individual. Beneficial mutations and experiences continue to accumulate over time, multiplying and diversifying choice patterns to an ever greater degree of complexity until the individual is no longer held to obey any particular predetermined course of behaviour, gaining in the autonomy we call free will.

Autonomy or free will implies that the individual is capable of governing himself, of determining his own thoughts and actions without, or in spite of, outside influence. He must clearly be in the driving seat. He must exercise what we call self control. Self control is an integral component of autonomy. If there is no self control, there is no autonomy.

As the individual continues to emerge and develop free will, his vision of society and the environment in which he evolves takes on a new perspective. He develops a greater awareness of his earthly condition and the nature of his existence and life in general.

The emerging faculty to extract himself from his environment and observe himself as an individual is fuelled by that innate, basic emotion we call curiosity which mankind shares with other animal species. Our curiosity and need for understanding leads us to develop a capacity for abstract thought and imagination when no obvious rational explanation is available. It is a gradual evolutionary process that allows us to develop the capacity to project our minds beyond perceived reality in our quest for an explanation.

.

i hadnt..gotten..to/the..conclusion..yet..banjo
but..yes..i agree/with..the/conclusion..FULLY*

as for..freewill..im too..busy/doing it..[and..allowing/others to..chose..heir own..will freely..to have given..the subject..serious study..yet realize..its extremely key*..[at least..to me]

my..biggest worry..is to record the=..key text..for when..that too..disappears..[inevitably]..as far/too many ..links do

[how great..would it be if olo..could archive..such reference files..for further future references..as they are..at time of posting

anyhow..to work

http://auromere.wordpress.com/2011/01/29/memory-transference-in-organ-transplant-recipients/

referenced
# Claire Sylvia.
A Change of Heart: A Memoir. (New York: Warner Books, 1997).
http://www.amazon.com/Change-Heart-Memoir-Claire-Sylvia/dp/0446604690
# The Art Transplant./Daily Mail,/Mar 31 2006. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-381589/The-art-transplant.html..(Accessed Jan 29, 2011)

# Paul Pearsall...The Heart’s Code: Tapping the Wisdom..and Power of Our Heart Energy..(New York: Broadway Books, 1999).
http://www.amazon.com/Hearts-Code-Tapping-Wisdom-Energy/dp/0767900952/
# Paul Pearsall, et al...Organ Transplants..and Cellular Memories. Nexus Magazine, Volume 12, Number 3 (April – May 2005).
http://www.paulpearsall.com/info/press/3.html
# Paul Pearsall, et al. Changes in Heart Transplant/Recipients that Parallel..the Personalities of their Donors,..Journal of Near-Death Studies, vol. 20, no. 3, Spring 2002.
http://www.paulpearsall.com/info/press/3.html

# Candace Pert. Molecules of Emotion : Why You Feel the Way You Feel (New York: Scribner, 1997).
http://www.springerlink.com/content/k51335l4k4676577/
http://www.amazon.com/Molecules-Emotion-Why-You-Feel/dp/0684831872
See also

1. The existence of..vital signs during sleep or coma
http://auromere.wordpress.com/2010/05/19/vital-signs-during-sleep-or-coma/
2. Sleep and Dreams
http://auromere.wordpress.com/2011/01/21/how-can-we-see-in-our-dreams-when-our-eyes-are-closed/techniques/sleep-and-dreams/
3. The brain..is not the mind..as per Yoga psychology
http://auromere.wordpress.com/2010/06/15/brain-not-mind-yoga-psycho/
4. Embodied cognition..in Yoga psychology
http://auromere.wordpress.com/2011/01/04/embodied-cognition-in-yoga-psychology/
5. Explaining out-of-body and near-death experiences
http://auromere.wordpress.com/2009/07/21/explaining-out-of-body-and-near-death-experiences/
6. Sleep disorders..:..somnambulism and somniloquy
http://auromere.wordpress.com/2010/12/16/sleep-disorders-somnambulism-and-somniloquy/
7. The action of..subliminal memory
http://auromere.wordpress.com/2010/04/23/the-action-of-subliminal-memory/
8. Similarity between Neurological..and Yogic models of human memory

http://auromere.wordpress.com/2009/08/27/similarity-neurological-yogic-model-of-human-memory/
9. Sri Aurobindo on synchronicity
http://auromere.wordpress.com/2010/12/12/sri-aurobindo-on-synchronicity/
10. Ghosts explained
http://auromere.wordpress.com/2009/02/15/ghosts-explained/

Paul Pearsall(1942-2007) and his colleagues,
Gary Schwartz and Linda Russek, have collected the accounts of 74 patients, 23 of whom were heart transplant recipients.

These reports..have been published in [3, 4, 5].
You can read..one of the reports at
http://www.paulpearsall.com/info/press/3.html

edger cayse..noted the importance
of..putting the mind..to..sleep
that fixes..recall ability.

Pharmacologist..Candace Pert..proposed “Molecules of emotion”..as a sort of biochemical correlate..of emotion..which is stored..[ACCESSED via}..in every cell [6].

mind..is not just..in the brain..but is..in fact active
*in..[activated..by]..every cell..of the body.

Paul Pearsall..proposed that..immuno-suppressant drugs
injected during transplants..could conceivably..lower..the threshold in patients..to allow them to register..cellular memories which were potentially stored..[acceseed by..the codes]..with-in the transplanted organs[5]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=W-duTAQHCd4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=NVVk3zAz8Qo

http://auromere.wordpress.com/2011/01/29/memory-transference-in-organ-transplant-recipients/constitution-of-man/pranamaya-kosha/

< Anybody who is an inconsistent believer is a part time believer and a part time believer is not, in my view, a true believer (perhaps an agnostic?). The fact of choosing when to belief and when not to believe disqualifies that person as a genuine believer. Either you believe or you don’t. Just as you either love somebody or you don’t.>

Dear Banjo,

By the above criterion I don’t love my wife since I have moments of anger at her where I feel anything but love. She seems to have moments when she feels the same about me. Right now I feel that I love her deeply, but I can’t by your criterion since I don’t feel that way all the time.

By your criteria above there are no true believers since I think moments of doubt can creep into any believer. There are also no true sceptics by the same token. I think of myself as a sceptic, but there have been occasions where I have regretted that I didn’t maintain my scepticism.

I think your criterion for true belief is unreasonable.

< The fact of choosing when to belief and when not to believe disqualifies that person as a genuine believer.>

One does not choose when to believe and when not to believe. I don’t think a believer chooses a time to doubt any more than a sceptic chooses a time to be gullible.

Possibly there are no true believers who meet your criterion for true belief.

< Why can’t some people - atheists but also theists- accept that what is incomprehensible or inconsistent to them might not be so to others?>

Dear George,

What is incomprehensible to me such as Turkish may be quite comprehensible to others. However, the only reason that Turkish is incomprehensible to me is that I have not taken the time and made the effort to learn Turkish. It would be a hard slog, but I probably could do it.

Inconsistency implies a contradiction. Something that is inconsistent to me must be inconsistent to you. A contradiction remains a contradiction even in another belief system.

However, belief in God is a different matter. I lost my belief in God when that belief became incomprehensible to me. My brain might be altered by physical or chemical means so I would believe in God again. However, without physical or chemical interference in my brain such a belief will not become comprehensible regardless of how hard I try.

< In my previous post I have offered one brief characterization of the difference, the other is the “PLUS understanding” from above. And as mentioned in the article, Penrose sees awareness as the “passive aspect” of consciousness, the active being free will.>

We can measure awareness by the mirror test along with other means. However, as I indicated by asking my question >>How do we know when we are acting from free will? Was it a compulsion that I responded to your post? Was I free not to do it?<< I cannot tell whether I or anybody else is acting from free will. I don’t think free will is a matter that can be determined by a scientific process. Therefore we need to bring in something else to determine the active element of consciousness.

Marie just suggested buying a mirror and putting it outside so we can see how our furry and feathered visitors react to it.

< Hitler, to anybody who watched his appearances, must look like a madman. However, the more one assigns madness to him, the less can he be held responsible for his crimes, and vice versa. Without free will, Hitler would be just another terrible catastrophe, like an earthquake or tsunami, not to be passed moral judgements on.>

Dear George,

I see Hitler as neither a madman, a moral monster nor a catastrophe. He was quite sane. If he can be considered insane then the German people must be regarded as subject to the blandishments of a madman. The Nazi program was an expression of a popular worldview in the Germany of its time. Hitler embodied ideas consistent with the mindset of many Germans at the time. Read “The Crisis of Ideology in Germany” by George Mosse.

If one watches his speeches in their entirety one will see him starting calmly and building up the crowd to an emotional high point. If one just sees the end the impression is of a madman ranting. If one had been in the German crowd one would probably have exulted in the climax having sat through the buildup.

His genocide was one of many in history. Read John Docker’s “The Origins of Violence” and Ben Kiernan’s “Ben, Blood and Soil”. Docker deals with genocide and builds up a theory of intergroup violence. Kiernan recounts 2,400 years of genocide starting with the Spartans.
If we think of Hitler as an aberration, a unique moral monster, a madman or a catastrophe we may dismiss what our societies have done and will fail to see the potential in our society for such behaviour.

Hitler was supported by many Germans and people in other countries.

If Germany had won Hitler’s birthday would be celebrated and the atrocities dismissed as necessary to realise the greatness of Germany.

To me more important questions than how we classify Hitler are:

Why did he appeal to so many?

What potential is there in our society for similar behaviour?

What crimes have we already committed?

How different are we from them?

the mirror test..could be easy..tested..
but for mine..it needs be..'by random/selection''..in natural habitat

ie plant//a mirror..in the 'wild'
and access..web cam footage..remotely..that films the so called criteria..or not..not directly..under the testers control[bias avoidance]

[even this could yet be affected..but not,
but i have no doudt species..recognition..in mammals..is by parental familiarities..[mind setting]

yet somehow weird fish..inatly access their familiar gene matches
to proove what?..animals got compassion..beyond genes bonds[i recall a herd..of wilder beast....nonot that one

i recall seeing vidio..of lions..gettinga fawn
that was 'stolen..from them..by a croc//then rescued..by a hippo..

i have sat and watched nature and noticed much nurture
but this is base awareness[its much reported in the spirit realm..that certain..'sins'.,,have a beast..they physically resemble]..more and more..but because they 'posess'..a specific love..they nodopudt re-incarnate..as that nature

its said..that demons..know their own..
but its unlikely..the beast knows itself..as firmly as it knows its needs/wants..of its beastly nature..[thats just the way..of it..]

god gives us the sex drive of a rabbit
as easy as that those..'gods'..of the book..[Krishna]..were turned into..trees./

[or that king..grazed out his life..[8years]..
as a beast..of the field..in the old testament]..

i would look for links..but then again..
freewill..insists..i must leave room..for..its karmic/doubt

the dream time..isnt just for the dreamer
but that we earn[learn]..vivid dreaming..

see your greatness..ohh suns of man..
but..one life away..from..the next incarnation..beyond man..*or back into the beast..

heck..see beastly nature..of our own..previous life incarnation
when men..become beast..after consuming ample SPIRIT*..true to type..is revealed[but in the next life..revealed.

beware..you..may love it
but those who know you best..let you chose..your own..poise-n

thats what freewill really is
you asked..by choosing that you obsess..for..
then get..the natural/body..[nurture]..that meets the needs..of thy nature.

[pigs so love rooting..in muck/
leeches so love yukking..our life blood]
energy suckers..become blood succor..[comfort]

nits love kids..[karma is a bbbbw..itch*]
dogs love to growl..and gods love life

your choice..just do..as thy will[not doing so makes you ill
and get ill..means your on your way..to your next incarnation

dont worry..your body..will fit your want
even if your not sure..they are...ask..and its given

earn bonus credits..while we can