george/quote..<<..I really don’t see any point
in continuing this game of “correcting”,..or having corrected, worldview assumptions or interpretations.>>

is that just..addressed to aj..or the whole topic
i thought we were all doing fine

sure im peeved..at christians
saying your grandmother is in hell

YOU..!..know..george..life lives on
but your afraid..to be seen as preaching
or even respond..that you trust..to be wrong
that any beloved/good..grandmother is 'dead'..[ie dead/gone]..[is dead wrong]

but god also assures us..thats their free-will
free-choice..not reality

[i for one..need to..hear why grandmother..*must be dead

david could easily validate his reasoning
of course he dosnt ''have to''..

but heck..were here..were helping each other
[if it cant be explained..to..mere men..
how will..we go telling it..to god?]

and how ..that self imposed deciete..
gets believed..by..one so educated..like both of you..*who KNOW..energy..cant die..*!*

[and thats..all
we all..really are]

recall..the father/pope/pappa said..
even atheist..if good..are assured a place..at OUR FATHERS table

if the pope can..forgive..man..its foolishness
why cant we..explain..it..even to ourselves..?

we are not afraid of correction
nor of clarification..or so i thought

but heck..i been wrong..before
maybe we do..'die'..but if we dont..what then?
feign..death..like the sleepers..on page 155..
http://new-birth.net/booklet/Gone_West.pdf

thats what jesus refuted..no day of judgment..no resection day
[just think of the huge numbers..even back in jesus time
just feiging death..because of a refutable l;ie

i must know..why?

science..ASKS..what if everything..we thought we knew..is wrong

uniform/temperature..predicted by gooth..support inflation_theory..
this implies..an expending earth..which brings..into play..

that things like..the ability of..matter to stretch..or expand...how its..tensile strength..matches substance..elasticity..as well as changes of state..as matter..ever repels other matter

there is no velocity..of matter..
but..internal lessening..of the external..back-pressure
then gravitational attraction...which raises the point..that galaxies move too quick..[ie the further..from the central-point..of the rotation curve..the slower the planet supposedly moves

galaxies seem to..lack..normative rotation curves[so the model..needed increase of more gravity..[matter]..but couldn't find any..thus called it dark-matter..[i call it photon scatter/aether]

anyhow..its called dark..cause we cant see it..
like much..is unseen..yet naming this unseen matter..allowed the models to work..but necessitated..a five fold ration..with the seen matter

[5 times more is unseen..[ie in the 'other' realms
[energy cant be created..nor destroyed law]..it dont exist..provably..but needs to exsist..just to make sense of it all

dark matter..passes through solid matter
just like spirit..dark matter makes galaxies form[sound familiar]

endless expansion..as our matter..dies
to..become dark/matter..regardless its ALL..{E}

from/gone-nuts/link
Chapter XXXI
The Sleepers
“We journeyed..for some time..till we came to a cave,
and here..I found quite a number..of men*..fast asleep.

Strive..as I would,..I could not wake them.
“This surprised me, .for till then..I had never seen*..anyone asleep in these realms..having no bodies,..we do not require sleep...

“I questioned..my Guardian Angel,
who now..had drawn..much nearer to me.

“He looked..very sad..as he replied:
“‘Son,..these were men..who stoutly maintained..that
after death..there was no life...They are..strong-willed men who,
that..*had they believed,..might..have done much good;..

as it is..they led..many astray,..and
since..they held..this view..*so strongly..
they have,..as it were,..*self-hypnotized..*themselves..into a state of coma,..from..which..it is very hard..to rouse them.

Here they lie,..age after age,..and while men..whom the world considered..far worse than they,..and who had sunk..far lower in Hell,..*have been able..to see the error..of their beliefs..and progress,..while here..they remain unconscious,..and cannot learn.’

“The Officer:..‘This is truly terrible;
is there no way..of waking them?’

“My Guide:..‘After long ages..the spell
grows weak,..then there come..here..to them..great messengers..of light,..who,..after much striving,..do succeed..in breaking through their sleep..and rousing them.’

the..similar phenomena..is reported here..[re suicides][see index]
http://new-birth.net/booklet/Subaltern_Spirit_Land.pdf

others..i hear related to..overdose deaths
which..leads to..the..dark-flow..*[light..moving strangely/beyond..our universe..as predicted..by inflation]

Dear George,

My mother was an alcoholic given to arbitrary changes of mood. My father wanted me to join him in appeasing her when she behaved unreasonably. I just wanted to get away, and I could get away by being with my grandparents.

I know of what Catholics call crises of faith. I wrote:

<I think the difference is that a Catholic would hope and maybe even pray that he or she could believe again in the future whereas the Jew wouldn’t be so troubled but would go on feeling things would be ok if he or she would just behave as expected.>

Whether that applies to doubts of God’s existence or the inability to pray or connect with the spiritual I think the difference between Catholics and Jews is the same. A ‘dark night of the soul’ is a disconnect with the spiritual. This is important in a religion that emphasises belief and faith. It is not important in a religion that emphasises practice.

There is a tradition of non-Jews following certain Jewish thinkers more than Jews do. Philo of Alexandria and Martin Buber are two examples. Most Jews who are not in the Hassidic tradition do not find Buber particularly relevant. I am an exception as I have read his tales. I particularly like the one about Zosya who said, “When I am called before the Almighty he will not ask me why I am not like Moses he will ask me why I am not like Zosya.”

Christians have such works as “The Imitation of Christ”. If one tries to be Christlike one cannot succeed as Jesus to Christians was the perfect human. One Christian defined to me original sin as the failure to attain perfection. If one sets up an impossible goal one will inevitably fail in reaching that goal. That promotes a neurotic guilt – the lachrymose wail, “We are all sinners.” We all do some good, also, but that disappears if one concentrates on one’s failings. It seems far better to try to be what you can be.

continued

< You did not answer my question whether it follows from those articles that 80% of American Jews, if asked in a survey “Do you believe in God, YES or NO?”, would have ticked YES.>

I don’t know the answer. However, If one is a righteous person (We may not agree on what constitutes a righteous person, but we probably agree that it is a valid concept.) it doesn’t matter whether one believes in God. If one is not a righteous person it also doesn’t matter whether one believes in God. That is the Jewish idea that it is more important what you do than what you believe. Even though I do not believe in the supernatural I still am influenced by my Jewish training.

So why do I call myself an atheist? I try to be an ethical person and thought I was living a lie by continuing to go to religious services when I no longer believed. I also think it is democratic to have separation of religion and state so I joined a group which promotes that idea. There are both religious and non-religious people who favour that. One of the consequences of the separation is that the religious beliefs of the people are no business of the government. As you know the religious beliefs of the citizens were the business of the government in the communist countries.

<it saddens me..you wont critique..a specific point..
of them after life texts..i posted earlier.>

Dear OUG,

It’s nonsense. There is no afterlife.

some basic science..for david
extracts from

http://www.celestinevision.com/celestine/forum/viewtopic.php?p=15116#15116

<<..Our classical way of thinking..is based ..on the belief*
that the world..has an objective observer-independent existence.
But a long list of experiments..shows just the opposite.>>

<<..if you add..life and consciousness..to the equation,
you can explain..some of the biggest puzzles..of science.>>

<<..For instance,.it becomes clear..why space and time..and even the properties..of matter itself..depend on the observer...>.

<<./..It also becomes clear..why the laws,..forces,..and constants..of the universe..appear to be..exquisitely fine-tuned..for the existence..of life.>>

<<..logic applies..to virtually everything...Bottom line:..What you see..could not be present..without your consciousness./>>

<<..Space..and time..are simply..the tools
for putting..everything together.>>

<<..reality..is a process..that involves..your consciousness.>>

<<..So why..should it matter..to a particle..what you decide to measure?..And how..can pairs of entangled particles..be instantaneously connected..on opposite sides..of the galaxy..as if space..and time don’t exist?>>

<<....Again,..the answer is simple:..because they’re not..just ‘out there’..space and time..are simply..tools of our mind.>.

<<..It doesn’t matter..how we set up..the experiment...Our mind..and its knowledge..is the only thing..that determines..*how they behave. Experiments..consistently confirm..these observer-dependent effects.>>

anyhow..there is a lot of science..in-between all them quotes
and yet again..your reply will be

<<..It’s nonsense..There is..no afterlife.>>
not even..i see nuthin

sorry..negative voices..
i..put a lot of effort..to try to prove..igot more than faith[works]
all the while..resisting..the inner voicings..saying he..dont want to know..his mind is made-up..

pride stops him..hearing..

so..i read again..your proof of..null/theo-concept
<<..It’s nonsense..There is..no afterlife.>>

please..put up..some actual proof
or refute mine..

yours seems..rather lacking..
i wont ACCUSE YOU..OF PREACHING..promise*

if..you havnt..any..definitive proof..thats fine too
just say so..i can take that..on faith

ps re..the works/faith..thing
creed=works..too..but none of any rote/ritual..is worth anything spiritually[it lacks passionm..thus =null/nix/zip...not anything..that gets anyone..anywhere good..

at any rate
prayer though..[for other]..seems to rate highly
as does helping out the less knowledgeable..see your higher wisdom

OUG,

>>george/quote..<<..I really don’t see any point in continuing this game of “correcting”,..or having corrected, worldview assumptions or interpretations.>> is that just..addressed to aj..or the whole topic<<

I did not address any topic. As you could see it was addressed to AJ and implicitly to anybody who thinks that he/she must “correct” theists to become atheists or vice versa. I think the purpose of this kind of threads is to try to understand each other’s position, not to “correct” it.

Dear david f,

I agree that Jews emphasize practice over beliefs and faith, which is more important in Christianity, however, I think - as far as the Christian part is concerned - only to a point. I am not a theologian, but one of the bones of contention between Catholics and Lutherans is the question of justification. Lutheranism advocates a doctrine of justification "by grace alone through faith alone because of Christ alone," which went against the Roman view of … "faith and works". Maybe this “works” (good deeds) would correspond to what you call practice.

(ctd)