(ctd)

>> I think there is no reason to think life has any meaning.<<

The meaning of my life as I envisage it is not something one can scientifically investigate, even define. Not only theists want to finish some things before they die (be it a material or intellectual creation, concerning the fate of their descendants, etc.), and this feeling can be also part of what somebody sees as the meaning or purpose of his/her life. Since the meaning of “the meaning of my life” (pun unintended) is so personal, it can be denied or rejected as meaningless again for personal reasons.

>> God was apparently invented as an explanatory function<<

That is a rational assumption if one wants to account for God’s existence in history without believing in His existence. This is one of the two points of view that Rodney Stark (c.f. my previous post) explicitly considers as compatible with his findings.

>> Theology is the preservation of bathwater under the delusion that it contains a baby.<<

Yes, I saw this rejoinder coming. Of course, the metaphor assumed there was a “baby” that should not be got rid of, whether or not some see it as a mere delusion.

>> The only reasonable explanation to me is that our concept of a benevolent deity is inherently contradictory.<<

It holds only in mathematics, where the definition of a concept completely identifies the concept, that a self-contradictory definition of a concept implies its non-existence. The God of Abrahamic religions is EXPERIENCED by many (though not all) who believe in Him as benevolent without any contradiction in their experience. This, of course, does not have to imply that God exists independently of their perception, only that to many, including otherwise rational people, this is not a reason for abandoning their a priori belief in God.

(ctd)

(ctd)

>> I have no reason to think a soul exists. However, mind can manifest itself <<

I suggested the identification of soul and mind to explain the former, since it does not make sense - at least today - outside a religious context (where it has a long tradition as Banjo pointedly showed), whereas mind does.

>> Is it fair to assume that, as a Catholic, you accept that definition?<<

Yes, otherwise I would not have tried to interpret it.

>>If a soul has no material existence how can it have any effect on beings that exist in the phenomenal world? What is its mechanism of communication? What is its function?<<

I tried to answer these questions by identifying it - for practical purposes in our world of phenomena, if you like - with mind. Its function is to point to an individual (human) existence beyond the material. This points to a belief in “afterlife” of which there are many, mostly rather naive views. I personally do not worry about “how to visualize heaven” - I just try to live my life to satisfy a Higher purpose (which of course is meaningless for those who do not believe) and leaving it to the last moment when my brain is about to stop working to find out whether I get a reward if any, or to find out … well nothing, just plunge into non-existence.

AJ Philips,

>>If you see an error, do you not feel the urge to correct it?<<

No. My exchange of opinions - with e.g. david f or Banjo Patterson - concerning matters pertaining to worldviews, are not guided by urges of any kind.

>>I gave up thinking that I could convince you of anything a long time ago<<

So why keep on nagging? If you really think only of “others around us” who can benefit from what you say, you have to find yourself another partner, somebody whom you would not find “unfair”, attempting to “gag” or “denigrate” you. Although, of course, I never tried to gag or denigrate you.

Dear david f,

>>I was outraged. I saw no reason why discussing each other’s views meant any attempt at conversion by either of us. <<

These things happen, especially with sects. I had a similar experience on this OLO. There was a Muslim contributor whom I asked some things (I think about Sufi mysticism) and after a couple of posts, he invited me to learn more about how to become a Muslim (or some similar wording). So I better stop asking questions.

And I recall the story about a meeting between some Vatican officials and Muslim imams, or scholars. At the beginning the Muslims provided each bishop with a copy of the Koran, so the good bishops wanted to reciprocate by donating a bible to each imam. However, these were shocked and would not touch the presents. Apparently they viewed a donation of a sacred book - both ways - as an invitation to convert.

On a completely different note. Is it correct to conclude from http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/us-jews-religion-tied-belief-20427487 and
http://www.pewforum.org/2013/10/01/jewish-american-beliefs-attitudes-culture-survey/ that over 80% of American Jews believe in God? (Over 80% becasuse allegedly even those who say they are not religious not necessarily don’t believe in God)

like david..i have had many..'try to save me';
unlike david..i took it personally..[but always manage..to say bless you]..too..or just thank you

on occasion i bless all..the prophets..
[the many messengers of mankind..]..too

they do it..cause they think..im lost
and they..really care that i..join their saved/state

[then they imbibe jesus..blood..
and eat his flesh..and i..feel..their thought..[of need..as they saw it..that..my blessing..being saved]..as they see it..is likely the best thing..they achieved..for their own soul..today.

that song..every sperm..is sacred
goes the same..for that we do..for..[not just to..other]

anyhow david i visited
your text selection from the sacred scriptures site..[its great aint it?]

and anyhow..i quoted from the text[yours]..at the end here
http://www.celestinevision.com/celestine/forum/viewtopic.php?p=15099#15099
turns out..that text led to mind..and the reasoning..re birth

then..goes to

http://www.celestinevision.com/celestine/forum/viewtopic.php?p=15103#15103

that has some fine..quotes.summations..re soul..via banjos texts
in between..those posts i quoted some [13]..bible quotes..re soul

this quote.from george..indicates..something re his inner voice

<<..he invited me..to learn more
about..how to become a Muslim..(or some similar wording).>>

no..that wasnt..his inner voice
that was the thought..that awake..his inner voice
[im going too presume..its the same..inner voice terms..as you too..or aj..or any of us may 'hear..i..know heard it many times

<<..So I better..stop asking questions.>>

i have learned..in life..if someone is trying to..save you
they already judged you..and are thus concerned..for my soul
but dont even know..the soul..is just another body..that gets stained..by judging other wrongly...

this kind of 'demon'..can..only..be removed..
by self realisation..that in judging other..we built thje astral karmic stain..on..our own soul-form..

only removable..in the fires of hell
[you know fire..means love/passion]..right?..not flame/heat

anyhow..fact is..they really saved..me..
by their info..and willingness to even talk to me
i live with the fact..im a sinner..but count on being fore-given

but first
i gotta be able..to..for-give myself
thats easier..by practicing..our fore-giving self
by practice..forgiving..on other..[if only..by not pre-judging other's

Dear George,

As I see it, Christianity is primary a religion of orthodoxy - what you believe. Judaism is primary a religion of orthopraxy - what you do. This is a rough generalisation. Some Christians think what you do is most important, and some Jews think what you believe is most important.

However, there can be a great disconnect between belief and practice in Judaism. The Pew article seemed to be unaware of that. Of course that can happen in Catholicism, too. Mother Teresa admitted that she doubted God’s existence but went on with no outward change. I think the difference is that a Catholic would hope and maybe even pray that he or she could believe again in the future whereas the Jew wouldn’t be so troubled but would go on feeling things would be ok if he or she would just behave as expected.

The ultra-orthodox Jewish world is a restrictive one with very well-defined limits on dress, food, relations between the sexes etc. In depth interviews have revealed that some of those who belong to that world are really atheists. However, they also may realise that they would be at a loss adapting to a very different outside world so they stay in that world and observe all the rituals and even participate in religious discussions.

What the Pew article didn’t mention was that these Jewish attitudes are not unique to the US but are merely a continuation of attitudes that existed in Europe.

My grandfather came from Riga, Latvia, and my grandmother from Eishyshok, Lithuania. He was a Hasid, and she was a Misnagid. The Hasidim of the nineteenth century somewhat correspond to the Sufis of Islam and the Charismatics of Christianity. Scholarship and knowledge are less important than the fervour of one’s belief. (The juggler in the Cathedral showing love of the virgin by juggling) The Misnageddim were appalled by this attitude, the Gaon (wise man) of Vilna, a Misnagid, excommunicated the Hasidim.

Continued

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These differences between the Hasidim and Misnageddim have disappeared but were very alive in the nineteenth century.

My grandfather was passing through Eishyshok when he met my grandmother. Marriages had been arranged for both. That became as nothing. She was a Misnagid. OK. He was now one, too. He came to the US and sent for her.

They settled in a small isolated mountain village called Brandon. The other families were all French Canadian. In Brandon they lived an orthodox Jewish life keeping kosher and observing other strictures of orthodoxy. Not having a ritual bath in Brandon my grandmother would use the nearby stream even breaking the ice in winter since immersion in running water can serve the same purpose.Later they moved to Newman, NY, which had 300 people. Newman is now part of Lake Placid.

My grandmother combined rigid observance with skepticism. I remember her questioning both miracles and the Messiah. Orthodox Jews are not supposed to light fires on the Sabbath. One Friday in the twilight she saw my grandfather crouched down next to the woodshed smoking. She said in shock, "Goldberg, it's shabbas!" He responded, "Goddammit to hell. I forgot!"

In that incident my grandfather was violating the law and my grandmother was concerned with observing it. Yet my grandmother was a skeptic, and my grandfather was a believer. She observed rigidly, but her mind roamed free. My grandfather was a thorough believer, but apparently his God was one who wasn't going to get his knickers in a knot if an old Jew had a smoke on shabbas. I remember going around the house looking for chometz (things like leavened bread forbidden on Passover) before pesach (Passover). I remember my grandfather saying, “Goddammittohell, Miltele, we can’t miss any of the chometz.” She exemplified the misnagid attention to ritual, and he exemplified the devout belief of a Hassid.

My grandmother was going back to early Jewish tradition in the period of Ezra after the return from Babylon. 2400 years ago Ezra introduced a number of innovations including the regular reading of portions of the Torah.

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