George wrote: “Well, I was sort of proud that I was “teaching all (engineering students coming from East Asian) nations” mathematics and thus indirectly “baptizing” them into our Western culture, since I shared the conviction that it was good for them. Perhaps this is what Jesus and his followers thought.”

Dear George,

You can be justly proud. However, you had not gone to them. They had come to you. There’s a tremendous difference between impressing your faith or ideas on others and their deciding to learn from you.

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

There is nothing explicit or implied in the above about leaving others alone if they do not want to come to you. Your teaching doesn’t seem at all what Jesus and his followers thought.

Even if you had set up universities in foreign countries it would still be optional whether people would attend.

The Christian mob who murdered Hypatia showed no respect for her right to maintain her beliefs. Unfortunately, the missionary impulse has often gone from expounding one’s beliefs to murdering those who do not wish to accept them. Martin Luther was initially friendly to Jews. When they did not become Lutherans he made diatribes against them which the Nazis printed in their newspapers.

I have headed technical groups. Those who solved problems in those groups used the scientific method to do so. However, I am not going to a tribal village as missionaries do and tell the villagers they must accept and use the scientific method.

I have been bugged by missionaries. JWs and Mormons come to my door. Even a relative who has become a fundamentalist Christian wanted me to ‘hear the words of Christ.’ I think they are following Matthew 28:19.

I do not wish missionaries harm, but I find them noxious. However, they seem to be in the spirit of Jesus and many of his followers.

Dear david f,

I wrote “heaps of arguments have been written claiming that the Communist (and to a lesser extent also Nazi) atrocities are due to the absence of the idea of a 'loving God watching over you'". I did not quote any such arguments even less defend them. The same for arguments that Nazism was a by-product of social of Darwinism. You, on the other hand, “see both Communism and Nazism as coming from Christianity” and elaborate on that opinion. These are all different opinions, interpretations of history and I think they are all legitimate: you see an object better if it is illuminated from more directions. And - for the x-th time - I am not a historian to adjudicate about the relative weight of these different perspectives.

I have read carefully what you wrote about faith, Christianity and ateism. I appreciate your sincerity and am not going to take it sentence by sentence to give an alternative opinion/argument, since you surely know they exist.

Nevertheless, a superficial reaction to that quoted statement of yours would be that of course they came from Christianity (and not from Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism etc) since they are both products, or rather excrements, of our Western civilization which for over a millennium was developing under the guidance - you might prefer spell - of Christianity.

(ctd)

(ctd)

>>However, you had not gone to them. They had come to you.<<

You are right, I did not recruit them to come to study in Australia, that was the job of others. There are many ways of “going and teaching” adults or children, in our century or in the past centuries. Western doctors still go to Africa to teach about health etc.

As for Catholics, there are not many Western missionaries left going to what used to be colonies; Africa etc have their own, native born, local hierarchies. Actually, these former missionary lands send “missionaries”, i.e. priests, to Western countries. In my parish in Melbourne there was one from Philippines, here in Cologne one from India.

However, you are right that the Church must stop taking verbatim the “teaching all nations” which was possible while the Christian teacher was in many respects above the natives: missionaries acted also as doctors, builders, carpenters, legal advisers etc. With contemporary atheists the question is not of “teaching” them but of entering with them in a mutually rewarding dialogue (and “evangelize” only when asked for by “seekers”). Benedict XVI encountered in this way only some atheist intellectuals, Francis is trying to dialoque with all atheists, although this requires good will on both sides (see e.g. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/the-pope/10302850/Pope-Francis-reaches-out-to-atheists-and-agnostics.html).

extracted..from..george..'link
http://www.repubblica.it/cultura/2013/09/11/news/sintesi_lettera_bergoglio-66283390/?ref=HREA-1

at topic
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=15257&page=0

popes full letter*

http://www.repubblica.it/cultura/2013/09/11/news/sintesi_lettera_bergoglio-66283390/?ref=HREA-1

please note..the..key..word is trust*
[atheist association says..]

<<.."What interests non-believers..
is certainly not 'forgiveness'..from an entity...*whose existence..we do not trust.">>

can we indeed TRUST*..in..forgiveness?
can we trust..associations/newspaper?
can we trust..the pope/church..people claiming toSPEAK..for them..or you?

<<..The Pope wrote:

"The question..for those..who do not believe in God
is to follow..their own conscience.>>..

or the crowd/fashion/peers?

i would tend to agree..because
god does..lie with*in...us all..sustaining...each of us our lives

and
we each*..have our own..parts to play out..in the book...of life

we each demonstrate..byour individualkity
the infinite uniqueness..of the unseen good..sustaining..all life

[god after all..gave each of..us our own face/life
each of us..unique dna..each unique fingerprints]

who sustains us all..each our unique
lives/life experiences..our OWN..points of view..opinion

we own..it..
because god allows us to CHOSE
our own roles..[or not]..in life..*here..and in the next lives

<<..Sin,..even for a non-believer,
is when one goes against..one's conscience...

.."To listen..and to follow your conscience means
that you understand..the difference..between good and evil.">>

and dont deliberately..intend hurting other
for light..or even transient..cause..or any cause..indeed

He said./.that the "mercy..of God has no limits"
and encompassed..even non-believers,..

but his remarks
failed to impress..the spokes/person
for the Italian Union*.. of Atheists and Agnostics.>>

that reminds me..of the election
how did..the at-heist party..[secularists parity?..go in the election?

<<"Why should a non-believer..
seek legitimization..from the Pope?".. the..*association asked?.

It dismissed..what it called..the pontiff's "nice words"

and said:

"What interests non-believers..is certainly not 'forgiveness'
from an entity...*whose existence..we do not trust.">>

can we indeed TRUST*..in..forgiveness?

i..replied that..but forgot what i said

what can we definitely..definably..defiantly..trust?

our comforters..who walk the talk
or our br-others..who dare to speak..their TRUTH*

oops english version..of pappas speech
http://www.repubblica.it/cultura/2013/09/11/news/the_pope_s_letter-66336961/

how to get this info..to him?
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=15467&page=0

these..clear guides[comforters]
might..at first raise anger..but they are only angry..in words
as long as they dont..die in anger..its all harmless

but then..
its time we knew..that terror..
is just error..[with a capital..*T*.]

In this episode of the Keiser Report,
Max Keiser and Stacy Herbert, discuss 'financial terror,'
*abhorent..cluster bombs and protestors without portfolios.

They also discuss Standard & Poor's 'blasting' the $5 billion fraud lawsuit..against them as retaliation..for the rating agency's 2011 decision to strip the United States of its AAA credit rating>>

notquite..its quite expl;icite
except for maxes props..that calm..him down[onoccasion
see god in max..see god in tracy..see god in alex..even you..too.

so..what did you sow..this day?

here is some of mine.

noting capital/terror..
go hand in hand../with gun in hand

crime pays..
hence bigger crime pay off..is bigger
how big..watch..learn..but dont get angry..get even

learn more
teaching dissipate the anger

remember..its an info war
money=knowing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hr6T-4Voe0g

http://www.repubblica.it/cultura/2013/09/11/news/the_pope_s_letter-66336961/

our weapon..of choice..is words
freewill..free voice
here

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=5995&page=0

In the second half, Max talks to comedian, Lee Camp,
about banks and corporate greed money.

learn more

False Flag Legislation
to Turn Free Speech into a Privilege

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uH282qQ4iAo

teaching dissipate the anger

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Dear George,

It is not Christian faith, faith in ideologies formed in a Christian society or faith in a monotheist religion that bothers me. It is the idea of faith itself that I find problematical along with certain other concepts.

Two examples of this madness in the non-Western world are the war in Sri Lanka and the motivation for the attack on Pearl Harbor.

After WW2 a high Japanese officer who ordered the attack said he felt that Japan would probably lose the resulting war if Japanese forces attacked Pearl Harbor, but honour demanded such an attack. That sounds crazy to me. For a notion of honour Japan embarked on a destructive war which resulted in many deaths and great suffering. A Japanese friend of mine said he understood it. Well, I don’t understand it. I think such a notion of honour is crazy. Possibly any notion of honour is crazy.

Couldn’t he have asked the question: "Is what this war will cost worth it?"

From what I understand the war between the Hindu Tamils and the Buddhist Sinhalese who control the Sri Lankan government was because the faith of the Buddhist clergy demanded it.

Couldn’t they have asked the simple question: “We consider Hinduism rubbish, but will it hurt us if we allow them to practice their rubbish?"

So much suffering could be avoided if one questions the result of following the demands of faith or honour.

I think faith in itself is not worth a pail of warm spit. I think faith in itself is far more bad than good. Doubt and questioning seem greatly superior. To me faith is a vice.

At the moment Obama appears indecisive about going into Syria. Good for him! There are too many decisive leaders who throw their countries into war without reflecting on the matter.