Dear david f,

Thanks for the extensive info. America is certainly a land of extremes, in both directions. As an East European joke puts, if I may: During the Cold War the Soviet Union was behind all (or most) stupid and bad things, the USA behind the clever and good things. After the collapse of the former, America has to cater for both, the clever as well as the stupid, the good as well as the bad.

Of course, the Committee on Science, Space and Technology you mention was created after Sputnik 1 was launched in 1956 but Senator Paul Brown, with his views on the age of the Earth, was probably not yet around. Instead people who decided to finance NASA and the landing on the Moon, were around. Well, that is my outsider’s view.

Dear George,

One of my favorite quotes is:

“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?”
― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago 1918-1956

He was a Russian Orthodox Christian. Orthodox Christianity is not as infused with dualism as either Protestantism or Cathilicism.

Evil is not an outside force personified in a devil also Orthodoxy accepts the existence of a devil.

Solzhenitsyn's view is much like that of Judaism where the yetzer hatov, the spirit of good, and the yetzer hara, the spirit of evil, struggles within us.

I have already quoted it on this string, but I feel it applies to countries also. No country is either all good or all bad.

Recently finished 'Web of Lucifer'. It's a novel set in the Italy of Machiavelli and Cesare Borgia. The protagonist, an idealistic young Italian, serves and admires Borgia even though Borgia is a monster because he believes Borgia will unite Italy. The book was published in 1947 and although it doesn't explicitly make the analogy it made me think of the idealistic young Germans who served Hitler. One could serve Hitler thinking one was doing good.

Not only are good and evil entwined, but one can do evil with good motives or vice versa.

.

Dear David,

.

[ One of my favorite quotes is:

“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?”

(― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago 1918-1956)

He was a Russian Orthodox Christian. Orthodox Christianity is not as infused with dualism as either Protestantism or Cathilicism.

Evil is not an outside force personified in a devil also Orthodoxy accepts the existence of a devil.

Solzhenitsyn's view is much like that of Judaism where the yetzer hatov, the spirit of good, and the yetzer hara, the spirit of evil, struggles within us. ]

.

Orthodoxy’s conception of good and evil within each individual with god and the devil as external supernatural entities, seems to me to be exactly the same as that of all other Christian denominations.

Perhaps I have misunderstood what you are saying.

.

Dear Banjo,

I don't think it is the same. "The devil made me do it." would never be said if one believed that evil came from within.

If the devil made one do evil than one is not responsible for one's evil. If sins are forgiven by believing in some supernatural entity then one is also not responsible for one's evil.

Both belief in a devil who can force one to sin and a belief in an entity that can remove one's sins are ways of denying responsibility for wrongdoing.

I believe in neither God nor devil, but I believe we should neither excuse our wrongdoing nor evade our responsibility to try to make up for it.

One does not have to believe in any religious mumbojumbo for the latter belief. We feel better if we accept responsibility, and we acknowledge that we are part of society.

edited
#God's provision..for us
for..the Angelic Conflict..is spelled out/in Eph.6:11-17.

examined..here
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=15257&page=0

expanded surmised..here
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=5995&page=0

might..is trite*

extract/from
http://www.versebyverse.org/doctrine/angel_con.html

# Man's creation..was to resolve..the Angelic Conflict..and answer the appeal..of Satan...Angels lived in the second heaven..with access to the third..for convocations, Job.1.

After..the revolt of Isa.14:12-14,..Satan set up his headquarters on the earth..and made a garbage dump out of it. It ended up being covered with ice and darkness.

In six days,..God (Holy Spirit) restored the earth..to perfect environment.and set up..*the volition test(Ps.8:35; Heb.2:7).

# Human..volition..was tested,
as was..angelic volition.

1.Angels began perfect..(innocent)..with free will.
Mankind also..began perfect..with free will.

2.Some went negative,..creating two categories.
[God..does not coerce/judge/condemnor censure..at any time...We are not/slave/robots.

#The..two tests..of man's volition.

1.Under..perfect/environment,
only one act..was forbidden..to Adam(Gen.2:17).[not eve]

2.The second..is..the need toscape-goat/blame other(Gen.3:15; Rom.5:12; 6:23).

# Man's..positive volition..in God's plan..
to have mankind..judge Satan's appeal..[as peers](Heb.1:4-14; cp. Lk.15:710).

gods..Angels cheer..when..an unbeliever..accepts Christ/grace/mercies...dittosatansd angels cheer..when we [like them]..'fall'

1...Angels observed..the incarnation..of Christ/love(Mt.4:11; 28:2; Lk.2:13;..Act.1:10;..1Tim.3:16).
2...Angels/ob-serve..believers..(1Cor.4:9; 6:3; 11:10; Eph.3:10; 1Tim.5:21; 1Pet.1:12).
3...Fallen angels..de-serve/..non-believers(Job.1:6; 2:13; Eph.6:12).

#..Results..of..the Angelic/Conflict for..dispensation.

1.Phase one,..salvation...
via atonement[at-one-meant]

We are..NOT*..higher..than angels/positionally
[one can ONLY..be judged..by a jury..of peers](Heb.2:7).

2..Phase two,..spiritual maturity.
We..can have..a tactical/victory..in the Angelic/Conflict.[but thus loose right..to judge]..

Any blessing..we..GIVE UNTO other,..in/the*..devil's-world
is..a tactical/victory...thatvoids..our duty..to bjudge

We..cannot receive*..blessing/without..1st/person-capacity..[standing](1Pet.1:7,8).
3...Phase three,eternity.[our gifted..life*..is eternal
that we stay/equal/peer[by the same measure]..We will/NOT..be/higher than..angels(Phil.3:21).

#..adam's initial/fall..gave the/rulership..of this/world..to Satan..(Gen.3;..Jn.12:31;..14:30;..16:11;..2Cor.4:4;..Eph.2:2)..but man's positive volition..can free him..from Satan's/dominion..while living in..Satan's kingdom(Gal.5:1).

# Questions..2b..answered..by the Angelic/Conflict.

1.Why..was man..created equally..in..his/image?
To resolve/the Angelic Conflict...via peers/equals

2.What is history.. An extension of,
and..*conclusion to,..the Angelic/Conflict.

3.Why sin?
Because angels..and man/have..volition.
God..is not/the..author of sin,..freewill..is,..Jam.1:13.

4...Why suffering?
God..is going to..remove this,[without.loosing..its teavhing..].but right/now..this is Satan's kingdom/school..and Satan..cannot handle his/own kingdom.*

The result..is EXTREEM..poverty/untold wealth,
deliberated intended poisoning/disease,..war, death,etc.
God's plan//[at-one-ment]..turns past/suffering..into ETERNAL/blessing.

[ritual/creed/cred]

Dear david f,

Yes, I also like the Solzhenitsyn quote (except that in my joke I used the milder “bad” rather than “evil” as the opposite of “good”).

You are right that there is a difference between Western (Yang?) and Eastern (Yin?) version of Christianity, for instance in that the Eastern version never had Reformation/Protestants, or more precisely, it absorbed them as an Orthodox apologist put it. The Yang-Yin dichtomy goes perhaps further. As I wrote once in reply to Yuyutsu:

> “The Western attitude is expressed by the words of Yahweh on Sinai: ‘You shall have no other gods before me; in the Bhagavad Gita the incarnate god Krishna says, ‘Whatever god a man worships, it is I who answer the prayer’” (Encyclopaedia Britannica).

I think these can be seen as two complementary ”models”, ways of seeing God, although it was the cultural adherents of the jealous Yahweh in the West (and their descendants to keep our atheist friends happy), rather than those of the all-embracing Eastern model, that brought us Enlightenment, modern science and technology that today we all profit from. <

On the other hand, the “spirit of good” and the “spirit” of evil “struggling within us” is something close to what is known also within Catholicism: the devil and the (guardian) angel respectively, sitting on YOUR two shoulders, the one tempting you to do bad things the angel telling you to resist the temptation and do good things.