Faber says "Palestine was ethnically cleansed", ethnically cleansed of whom? The Palestinian population is Israel is 4 times greater than it was 1948 rising from 750,000 to 2.75 million, this is hardly "ethnically cleansing" Since 1948, 800,000 Jews were "ethnically cleansed" from Arab lands - there are now less than 1000 Jews in all the Arab world. This might be a better reference to Faber's "ethnically cleansing".

Sadly, after every war in every country there have always been population shifts or transfers. The largest being between Pakistan and India in 1947 of between 10 and 12 million people.Although life is not all rosy between Pakistan and India the transferred populations are not claiming refugee status and wanting to return 3 generations later. They have moved forward.

The Palestinians are the only group of people to have ever claimed their future generations as refugees. If we applied the same rule to the rest of the world as the UN applies to the Palestinians then nearly the whole world would be refugees certainly (except for the indigenous population) all Australians would be refugees under this definition. It is time to move forward and build infrastructure. Instead of creating an atmosphere of hate and seeking out weapons and firing rockets daily. It is time the Palestinian rulers in Gaza taught peace, harmony and to love thy neighbour. Maybe then the way forward could be paved.

All of Jordan may not be Palestine but Israel has been the home of the Jewish people 5773 years

Yes, Jordan is not Palestine, but then Jordan, not Palestine, started a war with Israel in 1967, unprovoked, and in that war lost the West Bank.

Now that Jordan and Israel are at peace, Jordan should receive back its West Bank. This should have been done right when the peace agreement was signed, as part-and-parcel of that agreement, but is never too late.

Though it's obviously against Jordan's interests to hold the West Bank, Jordan must own to it and have it back, even for just one day. Thereafter, as the West Bank is theirs, Jordan may do what it likes with it: perhaps it may want to create a Palestinian state there - why not? it's theirs to decide. Why actually didn't Jordan do so before 1967?
(hint, in 1967 there was no Palestinian nationality: those we now call "Palestinians" saw themselves merely as Arabs and preferred to be part of greater-Syria)

Dear SC,

Your first comment is good. As for the second:

<<All of Jordan may not be Palestine but Israel has been the home of the Jewish people 5773 years>>

The more likely number is close to 2500 years (or about 3500 years if you take the bible's word on it). In any case, overall it proved more of a burden than a boon, except in one case - the Nazi holocaust, when Israel became a place of refuge for the survivors. The Jews are holding tight to that cursed land mainly for fear of another holocaust and indeed, the behaviour of their neighbours (including how they treat each other!) does not help them to allay those fears.

Congratulations to OLO.

Finally we have a pro-Palestinian article! Of course, one article does not provide a balance to the flood of pro-Israel nonsense that the Singer provides us with every week, but it is a start! Long may it continue.

Now all we need is an article that discusses the imminent nuking of Iran by the U.S. and Israel and OLO will be really on top of its game!

I wonder why it is that I have the impression that all historians are actually frustrated fiction authors, with a barrow to push, but not enough imagination to come up with a Harry Potter?

"Yes, Jordan is not Palestine, but then Jordan, not Palestine, started a war with Israel in 1967, unprovoked, and in that war lost the West Bank."

Err sorry but Israel started the war, if you read the factual reports, particularly on the history of Moshe Dayan, you will find that he and he alone was responsible for starting the war in '67.

Please get your facts right before posting these propaganda untruths.

Israel is now ruled by a fanatical bunch of sociopathic crazies. They are hell bent on attacking Iran and when they do, which is for all intent purposes a 'given' the world will see the real hypocrisy of the legitimacy of the Jewish nation.

I see no compelling evidence in this article that we all have to have a homeland.
Since the end of WW1 we have gone from a population of just one billion to seven! Many displaced by wars and or ethnic cleansing?
My ancestral roots are primarily Scottish and Irish.
I'm a triple distilled Celt?
The highland clearances moved my Scottish forebears out of their traditional homelands!
The English invasion, the black and tans, enforced migration and the potato famine dislocated many or most of my Irish forbears.
I don't waste my valuable and limited time obsessing about these facts; or the injustice of enforced relocation, from what were once traditional homelands.
War is never ever an answer!
Nobody but nobody ever wins a war.
War simply creates even more hate, victims and dislocation!
I've accepted the historical facts, that are and remain irreversible!
In an obviously overpopulated world people have to move, and others need to make room for them.
The sons and daughters of Abraham, all of them, whether Jew or Arab, need to set aside perceived difference.
American/European Jews need to understand they were dispossessed or moved away through their own volition.
I simply could not go to Scotland/Ireland and claim any inheritance or historical rights!
Nor can anyone else, who is at least three generations removed from so called historical roots, even if it is written in some revered book, that I/they have inalienable rights, or a genetic heritage!
Were it entirely up to me, I would lock up Middle East or Jew and Arab leaders, in a room, until they sorted out a plan, they were all completely committed to, as the way forward and a peaceful outcome.
It clearly is in Israel's interests, as never before, to settle any current impasse.
A two states solution and agreed final borders is now no longer option, but a doable essential must.
And this essential outcome cannot be deferred or prevented by very cunning political activists or Iranian sympathisers, whose real goal is even more unrest/unresolved issues and eventual expansion/control/exploitation?
Rhrosty.

Surely ethnic cleansing implies something done to one ethnicity by another. If we can agree on that, then I would object to the proposition that since 1948, 800,000 Jews have been "ethnically cleansed" from Arab lands.
The Jewish residents of countries from Morocco to Ethiopia to Yemen to Iraq and points in between moved to Israel either on their own or at the urging of the Zionists in Israel. A greater Jewish population was needed in Israel, and any notion of a Jewish story other than that being propagated by the Zionists had to be snuffed out.
I think it's too late for a two state solution. One state from the sea to the river, democracy under one person / one vote, right-of-return enshrined for all and let justice be done and seen to be done.
And then let's open up the archives. Oy vey!

"Israel is now ruled by a fanatical bunch of sociopathic crazies. They are hell bent on attacking Iran and when they do, which is for all intent purposes a 'given' the world will see the real hypocrisy of the legitimacy of the Jewish nation," says Geoff of Perth.

Hypocrisy is not the only thing the world will see, Geoff. It will also see the Satanic deal which has been done by the U.S. and Israel, one that will turn the Middle East into a nuclear wasteland.

Remember there are Christian as well as Jewish crazies who are eagerly awaiting the Rapture when, as the fires burn and millions die, they think they will go to heaven without dying.

That people could believe this nonsense shows the level of derangement that religion creates.

Religion is a curse, one that divides and deludes mankind!

Dear Geoff,

Technically indeed, Israel pre-empted the war in 1967 in order to break the Egyptian marine siege in the straits of Tiran and the military build-up against it, but it only attacked the air-forces of Egypt and Syria and truly hoped that Jordan stays out of it. Only when the Jordanians started bombarding Western Jerusalem, Israel had no choice but to enter that third front. Even Dayan, despite his greed to increase his private archeological collection, could not do a thing had Jordan abstained from heavily bombarding the civilian population of Western Jerusalem.

Israel will never attack Iran for the simple reason that it has no such capability to stop its nuclear program - a barking dog does not bite. The Americans however may, as they have much more.

I care not for Jewish nationality, but for the lives of my family in Israel who are themselves victims of Jewish nationality. Unfortunately, bullets, bombs, missiles and the like know no nationalistic boundaries.

Dear Halduell,

Oy Vey indeed - would you trust the residents of the Middle-East to maintain democracy and not slaughter their minorities? The Copts are already fleeing Egypt and just look how fun it is to be a minority in Syria and Iran. So no thanks, I'll give it a miss - better be alive than politically-just.

I do support a two-state solution, having Israel with a tiny area but armed to its teeth. I do not expect peace in any case as we all know too well that this is the Middle-East.

Dear David,

Please don't blame religion - Judaism is not a religion, but merely a tribal-identity which tactically hides under the guise of religion. Even the desire of Christian fundamentalists for rapture is selfish and have nothing to do with true religion. Jesus would have never supported it.

No, Yuyutsu, Israel was ALWAYS going to attack Jordan. They held Jerusalem, and without Jerusalem, Israel was only half realised.
Dayan's private archeological collection had nothing to do with it.
Speaking of mistreating minorities, have you been following what happens to immigrants, women and Palestinians in Israel?
Israel's need for dominance started as tribal identity wrapped in religion spurred by oppression. Now its water. And water just might be the name of the main game for the foreseeable future.

Further to my last post, please read http://972mag.com/israeli-army-destroys-water-cisterns-and-dwellings-in-southern-west-bank/54743/
This article is from an Israeli website.
In the desert it's always all about water.
But to be realistic, life itself is always all about water. With it we can attempt anything. Without it we perish and die. That's simply life as it is on our changing planet.
And Yuyutsu, when speaking of mistreating minorities, I forgot to mention the IDF's treatment of children. There are some truly damning articles on the same website as the one cited above, if you have the open-mindedness to look.

"Err sorry but Israel started the war". Not so Geoff, Egypt started the war when it closed the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping on May 22 1967. Nasser's comment at the time was "Our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight."

It simply amazes me that Australian zionists are more woefully ignorant of facts and wilfully dumb that Israeli zionists are.

Perhaps they should read the works of Israeli authors and historians instead of listening to David Singer or Mark Regev.

Try Ilan Pappe, the Ethnic Cleasing of Palestine. Benny Morris wrote the same sort of things but thought the cleansing was not finished.

Akiva Eldar writes compellingly of the illegal settlements and terrorist behaviour of those who steal the land and murder with impugnity.

Shlomo Sand successfully debunks the lie that jews have lived in Palestine for thousands of years, the only people who lived in Palestine thousands of years ago were arabs and there were no religions beyond worshipping the sun and war gods. He also shows that European jews only converted in the 8th century in the Khazars.

Tom Segev brilliantly exposes the treatment and truth of arab jews migration to Palestine - the terrorist gangs of Israel forced them to with bribes and promises because European jews wanted to go to the western world because they were westerners themselves.

Uri Avnery tells of the part the terrorist gangs played in 1948 and the thing about these history tellers is that not even the Israeli zionists have denied a single part of them.

Marilyn:

I will be interested to see if you have any reputable authors/historians other than those of the extreme left or communist background supporting your view.

Unlike your claim, Benny Morris did not write “the same sort of things” about ethnic cleansing. In fact, what he did have to say is the following:

"There was no Zionist 'plan' or blanket policy of evicting the Arab population, or of 'ethnic cleansing'… the demonisation of Israel is largely based on lies—much as the demonisation of the Jews during the past 2,000 years has been based on lies. And there is a connection between the two."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benny_Morris

Misinformation is a great tool to support your point of view, but only as long as you don’t get caught.

Sorry DannyG but you seem to be missing a s.it load of facts.

I guess when you become an apologist to the Zionistic regime you will grasp at any straws, your:

"Egypt started the war when it closed the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping on May 22 1967. Nasser's comment at the time was "Our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight."

Care to enlighten on what was the 'real' reason Nasser did this, maybe then you can comment with some authority and also looker deeper at the real facts.

I find it dumbfounding to see the same old rhetoric being pushed on these issues, particularly when they have been clearly demonstrated as false by numerous historians, including Jewish historians.

The real facts speak for themselves, history is not something that can be re-written by the likes of you posting false dictoms on this website.

Dear Halduell,

The points you mentioned further strengthen my argument:

it seems that the Middle-East has something out there in the atmosphere that causes everyone to become racist and intolerant, yet you suggest:

<<One state from the sea to the river, democracy under one person / one vote, right-of-return enshrined for all and let justice be done and seen to be done.>>

In other words, you try telling my family "don't worry, drop your gun, be nice to the wolf, he won't hurt you, I truly truly promise that he will not bite again, that he still has stomach-ache from the last time he ate grandma, so come say hello, give your little hand to Mr. Wolf and be friends..."

Sorry mate, I rather have my family remain accused of every possible crime, atrocity and injustice under the sun (which BTW they were not personally involved in and can't be held to account for the Israeli government) than have a nice plaque over their graves saying "R.I.P. under this stone lies the most fair, magnanimous, just and naive".

Marilyn,

You really do pick them, don't you? Would I be wrong in stating that you cherry-pick writers that support your wishful beliefs.

Ilan Pappe

“At best, Ilan Pappe must be one of the world’s sloppiest historians; at worst, one of the most dishonest. In truth, he probably merits a place somewhere between the two. “ (Benny Morris)
http://www.tnr.com/article/books/magazine/85344/ilan-pappe-sloppy-dishonest-historian?

Pappe is among the New Historians. The eminent British historian E.H. Carr (and you can't get must more eminent than Carr) describes New Historians. They “write propaganda or historical fiction, and merely use facts of the past to embroider a kind of writing which has nothing to do with history.”
(E.H. Carr, What is History? (Harmondworth: Penguin, 1984), p. 29.

Akiva Eldar (an Israeli journalist) and yes, like our journalists do, they snipe at their politicians, and also like our journalists, sometimes truth is very rubbery. You, apparently don't know it, Marilyn but Israel has free-speech.
http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=6&x_article=2122

Shlomo Sand, an historian not a geneticist,claimed Jews do not have a common genetic history. His 'fairies at the bottom of the garden' was shot down by scientists.
http://www.cell.com/AJHG/abstract/S0002-9297%2810%2900246-6
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v466/n7303/abs/nature09103.html
http://www.upi.com/Science_News/2010/06/09/Study-Jews-have-long-genetic-history/UPI-46971276133419/

Uri Avnery, a personal friend of Arafat, stated that Arafat had been murdered. There have been multiple investigations into Arafat's death ...

Professor Barry Rubin (director of the ICD Global Research in International Affairs Center) also refuted the poisoning theories. Arafat was 75 years old, overweight, ate unhealthily, worked long hours, did not take care of himself and his doctors were not up to snuff.
http://www.jewishpress.com/indepth/analysis/rubin-reports/yasir-arafat-is-still-dead-and-we-know-who-really-did-him-in/2012/07/06/

“Yasir Arafat is still dead. True, he was once alive. I sat across from him in his Gaza office, for example. And he even had a copy of my history of the PLO on his book shelf so he must have been of sound mind at the time. … I told him to start jogging and cut down on sweets. But he didn’t listen. On November 4, 2004, he died, a fate he previously delivered to thousands of far more innocent people.”

Halduell:

“…Israel was ALWAYS going to attack Jordan”

That is your opinion. You can equally argue that Egypt was always going to attack Israel, had Israel not struck pre-emptively (see Operation Dawn). Unfortunately the fact is that Jordan actually attacked Israel first, so I guess we’ll never know.

“…have you been following what happens to immigrants, women and Palestinians in Israel?”

I have been, but maybe I missed something. Could you please educate me – what does happen to women in Israel? As for immigrants (I assume you mean illegal immigrants), it seems to me that they wouldn’t be risking their lives crossing the border into Israel if they didn’t believe their lives will be better, not worse, under Israeli rule.

Dear Yuyutsu
Not "in other words". Only in the words I used, among which was a suggestion to open the archives.
If that were to happen, so much of this debate would see the light of day and resolve itself clearly and without the need for all this rancour.
About your family: We are all responsible for the actions of our governments, a policy well established since Nuremberg.

Dear Halduell,

Suppose the archives were all opened and show the worst-case scenario for Israel, that the Jews of Israel all along committed deliberate atrocities, ethnic-cleansing, torture, genocide, whatever - do you really think for one moment that it will lead me to compromise the safety of my family one iota? You must be kidding, the safety of my family comes before being politically right, and if for that safety they must massacre or nuke the rest of the world, then so be it!

<<About your family: We are all responsible for the actions of our governments>>

So said whom? Zarathustra? Abbot? Juliar? Bill Gates? I take absolutely no responsibility for the actions of those bastards of the Australian government. I have no reason to do so.

My family committed no crime, they just happened to be born where they were, in Israel, or brought there as toddlers by their parents in order to escape Hitler. They did not steal the land they live on from anyone, they worked hard to earn it. They never abused an Arab/Palestinian, in word thought or deed. They all live within Israel proper, that is the pre-1967 lines. They have no reason to suffer for the cruelty and stupidity of the Israeli government.

I think we should start looking at Arab-Israeli success stories.

Read
http://israel21c.org/social-action-2/arab-israeli-solar-company-wins-eureka-grant/

Incidentally,

Jordan Is Palestinian by Mudar Zahran
Middle East Quarterly (Winter 2012), pp. 3-12
http://www.meforum.org/3121/jordan-is-palestinian

Geoff of Perth:

You seem to be confused: You talk about the need for real facts, and the attempt by DannyG to re-write history. Yet DannyG’s post contains real facts, which seem to be missing from yours. The quote he attributed to Nasser is a fact. It was Nasser closed the straights of Tiran to Israeli shipping, moved his troops into the Sinai towards the Israeli border, and ousted the UN peace keepers from the border. Each of these acts alone could be considered as an act of war. Are you disputing these facts? Am I rewriting history in any way?

To Dr David Faber

You are in error in stating:

"Thus the persistent contributions of Zionist activist David Singer to On Line Opinion advocating the view that Palestinians should again be satisfied with Jordanian rule are nothing new. They are however historically bankrupt."

Let me give you a brief history lesson to point out just some of what history records and of which you are apparently unaware :

1. Jordan comprised 78% of the territory of Palestine included in the 1922 League of Nations Mandate for Palestine. If you want to go back further in time it was part of the land conquered by the Romans - who promptly changed the name of Eretz Yisrael to Palestina - and divided the conquered territory into three regions called Palestina prima, Palestina secunda and Palestina tertia.

2. The provisions of the Mandate relating to the reconstitution of the Jewish National Home in Jordan (then called Transjordan) were postponed or withheld by the Mandate but Transjordan remained part of the Mandate until independence was granted to it by Great Britain in 1946.

3. Many Arab spokesmen have frequently acknowledged that Jordan was part of Palestine - Yasser Arafat in 1986 and 1987,King Hussein in 1962 and 1981, Abu Iyad in 1990, Crown Prince Hassan in 1970, the decision of the Palestine National Council in February/March 1971, the decision of the West Bank Arabs to unify the West Bank with Transjordan into one territorial entity in 1950.

4. Article 2 of the PLO National Covenant 1964 states:

"Palestine with its boundaries at the time of the British Mandate is a regional indivisible unit."

5. Article 2 of the PLO National Charter 1968 states:

"Palestine, with the boundaries it had during the British mandate is an indivisible territorial unit."

You do the cause of ending the conflict between Arabs and Jews great harm in seeking to deny the existence of these indisputable historical facts.

The ratbag responses posted by some to your article confirms my opinion

How simple it is: two peoples each want autonomy. Two States for two people answers their aspirations. Shame to those who preach hate and teach their children to hate. Sadly, Gazans sending rockets and others preaching boycotts will not achieve peace.

Mudar Zahran is a Palestinian writer, Muslim, and academic from Jordan, who now resides in the UK as a political refugee.

As Faber is a spokesperson for Friends of the Palestinians, he should respond to the issues Mudar makes.

It never ceases to amaze me that those who claim to support the Palestinians are the most damaging to their cause. They disseminate lies and half-truths and further inflame those on BOTH sides who wish for a two-state solution, each living in peace beside the other.

When reading the blurbs of the usual suspects who constantly promote hate against Israel, it is obvious to all that Jews will continue to need a homeland, a haven, to which they can go.

"The Arabs have roiled the world for decades with their furious protest that their land has been "stolen" from them. One might take seriously such a statement if it came from a pacifist people such as the Tibetans, who had quietly inhabited their land for ages before it was seized by the Communist Chinese in 1950. The claim is laughable coming from the Arabs, who in the early Middle Ages conquered and reduced to slavery and penury ancient peoples and civilizations stretching from the borders of Persia to the Atlantic; who in 1947 rejected an Arab state in Palestine alongside a Jewish state and sought to obliterate the nascent Jewish state; who never called for a distinct Palestinian Arab state until the creation of the terrorist PLO in 1964—sixteen years after the founding of the state of Israel; and who to this moment continue to seek Israel's destruction, an object that would be enormously advanced by the creation of the Arab state they demand. The Arab claim to sovereign rights west of the Jordan is only humored today because of a fatal combination of world need for Arab oil, leftist Political Correctness that has cast the Israelis as "oppressors," and, of course, good old Jew-hatred."

http://archive.frontpagemag.com/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=11607

To #David Faber,#drab and #all other contributors to this post

Thank you drab for posting the reference to an excellent article by Lawrence Auster specifically dismissing the claim of historical bankruptcy made by Mr Faber in far more greater detail than I was able to do in my limited 350 words.

Mr Faber is yet to respond to my post. I guess he will run a thousand miles to get away from responding to what Mr Auster has to say.

That is the nature of this debate - vague unsubstantiated statements against verified and substantiated facts.

I urge everyone to read Mr Auster's article
http://archive.frontpagemag.com/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=11607

After doing so I challenge you to point out any inaccuracies or false statements.

It exposes Mr Faber's analysis as a very shoddy piece of poorly researched and ill-considered journalism.

Jordan is not and will never be Palestine , your Israel propaganda is now exposed and the whole middle east knows it , so dream on , we will not accept it

#To Mahmoud

Would you care to explain to us why you will never accept the fact that Jordan comprises 78% of the territory formerly called "Palestine"?