Diver,

Sorry if I have my feet planted firmly on the ground - unlike your good self and so many other like-minded followers who are inhabiting a fairyland of whacky possibilities. It's time to get a grip and face some potentially unpleasant realities, in spite of the constraints of political correctness.

Since Land Rights and the Apology, of Rudd's promises, what has really changed? But it's all Whitefeller's fault, isn't it? The magic bullet's missing, the Philosopher's Stone and the Alchemy to turn all into gold at the touch, at the asking. Self-determination requires self-reliance, me old chum, and taking responsibility for taking advantage of opportunity. But, what advantage has been taken of opportunity, of land rights, education, employment? Too little, by too few.

Who's responsible for kids having to be chased or cajoled to get up and go to school? Who's responsible for the boozing, the bashing? Who's stuck on the welfare bandwaggon with no intention of getting off? Why are there still camps? Why does there have to be pub curfews, and 'special' petrol to curtail 'sniffing', and controls on welfare so that kids get fed and go to school? Who is responsible?!

When Phillip arrived communication with indigenous people was not possible, and many groups and languages existed, each keeping to his own patch. (The Dreaming must have come from an original emmigrant group - which then scattered throughout the land?) Communication remains a problem, but not only between indigenous and non-indigenous.

Camps set up outside stations, for handouts. Indigenous people were understandably intrigued by these new arrivals, with their seemingly endless supply of goods, with their building of a permanent homestead, with their fire-sticks, horses, cattle, sheep, farming. What's changed? Still a mystery?

The indigenous people may form a nation - for the first time in their history - but it will not be easy. Land Councils and ATSIC have achieved little, but still demands for more rights. A continuation of you give, we take, we sit.

Give greater control to an indigenous 'Council', after such evidence of self-government capability? Who's kidding who?

Saltpetre,

Wow - I hadn't realised it was all so simple...I mean from an anthropological point of view n'all that.

"...A continuation of you give, we take, we sit."

Makes you wonder why there should be any discussion at all on the subject.

"Camps set up outside stations, for handouts. Indigenous people were understandably intrigued by these new arrivals with their seemingly endless supply of goods...with their fire-sticks".
(I hear indigenous American Indians had a similar experience - white man ingratiates himself in an extremely insistent manner).

Who did the taking?

Poirot,

I've already gone out on a limb here, so I'll take a step out further and wait for the branch to break.

I'm all in favour of reconciliation, but am hesitant about what form this might take. Should we follow the American model, the Canadian, the New Zealand? Or, make a brand new model?

All this talk of 'sovereignty', and the demand for its embodiment in the Constitution, is the real issue. We did get our independence from England (or UK?) didn't we? The Commonwealth of Nations? But now we seem to be faced with gaining independence from the original owners. Do we buy it? What's it going to take to make adequate reparation? Or should the UK make reparation, as the original thief? Can any reparation be truly sufficient?

There is a disturbing element to all the talk of 'sovereignty' - visions of 'us' having to pay 'rent' to them, of having to share all the spoils of our incursion, a share of all investment and development returns. Must we, the interlopers, also accept reduced rights, for we are not 'true' Australians?

Saying 'sorry' is merely a start, and by no means anywhere near true recognition or reparation, but Australia is now a very different place from the New Holland of old, and our indigenous population somewhat different to their original forebears - at least as far as opportunity is concerned.

We are a distinctly multicultural nation now, with minorities from many nations, including many who have been disposessed of their 'original' rights. Should the world now become a hotbed of litigation for loss of rights?

Should we expect a class action? Or can we reach an amicable 'agreement'? Should reparation be based on original use of territory, on loss of earnings (or survival equivalent), and with damages for pain and suffering of course? How much? A million and a penthouse for each? A billion? (And a non-disclosure contract, with guarantee of no double-dipping?) Or can equal rights be sufficient? (As we try to extend to all 'Australians'.)

Original 'owners' - yes. Sovereignty - I shudder to contemplate.

salty/quote..""make a brand new model?""

yes...mens womans business
built arround the 550 nations
via school discticts self autonimously run..via a gg
over seeing all govt action within their fiefdom[a trustee]..not a figure head..[bonus for extra value adding]

elected by concensus..via local mens/womans circle

""All this..talk of 'sovereignty',..and the demand
for its embodiment in the Constitution,..is the real issue.""

we are all..orgigonally from somewhere
but our aborigonal/right extends..to where-ever we are
[ab-origonal lands]..

""We did get..our independence..from England(or UK?)..didn't we?""

no we didnt
see we need to apoint a trustee
and define the trust...ourselves..[not have some forgeign power nominate an austeralia act[the people must ratify]..but governance has moved beyond the constitution rules

""The Commonwealth/of Nations?""

is a trust..til the trustee
claims..the rights back[placed in trust]

""gaining independence..from the original owners""

YOU are a heir
of the enjoined lands..of this world.
YOU ARE THE ORIGONAL OWNER

""Do we buy it?""

land cannot be owned
its a trust...must be respected..for the good of all[not just a few colluding few]..all of you..not just some

""adequate reparation?""

just law..not just us
we all had our rights subverted/perverted
kings dont rule over us...but for us..[if they arnt for us all..they are against us all]

""should the UK make reparation""

no simply give each nation state[schookl district]..its own locasl money[taxed as its transacted out of state]to finance the collective federacy,

local mens/womens/circles..send specific representatrives of their state[school district]..to represent federal obligations

that collectivly underwrite the 550 local state's
and servuice the gg/governance

anything govt go to a local school
[no more big fish..many smaller fish in smaller ponds]

""Can any reparation..be truly sufficient?""
give each their own sovereign rights
beginning with the right of seignorage

[issueing each..its own minted LOCAL coin]
[based on the promise..of seed of the wikigeld
[the prophesised..'leavings..of the tree of life']..rev 22/2]

Hi One Under God,

As they point out on The Big Bang theory, there is an infinite number of galaxies across the universe, with an infinite number of planets, so there is every likelihood that, somewhere out there, there is a planet where your ideas may be being put into practice right at this moment.

Good luck :)

Joe

""..visions of 'us'..having to pay 'rent'..to them,"'

not you..'us'..the 'CROWN us..[the colony of the federal/state/council's...multinationals ..and corperations..[and family trusts..us]..owe the 'rest of us""

""having to share ..ll the spoils of our incursion,""

THEIR exploitation..or our COMMUNAL resources
serrvices utilities...[serve the common weal/the common good]

""a share of all investment
and development returns.""

less than 1% transaction tax
call it insurance payback...that ONLY GOES BACK to the living

ALL THE LIVING Get
an ewual share of their state's coin

""Must we,..the interlopers,
also accept reduced rights,""

lol..there is no interloper
understand..that you gave away your rights
and were betrayed..your living right was subverted [perverted]..into a fiction that saw dead corperate trusts..assume AWAY..your right's

[and you the ab-origonal...
made a slave to the dead corperate system]

""for we are not 'true' Australians?""

true
but your ab-ORIGONAL..from some where
by that right you share equally

""but Australia is now..a very different place
from the New Holland of old,""

yeah the army under governer generals
invaded these great south lands..[under lie of terra/nulious..[empty land]..but this land..LIKE THEIR homelands..wernt empty..[to wit..dead corperate trusts..pay the rent

""indigenous population..somewhat different
to their original forebears..at least as far as opportunity is concerned.""

yep we had concensus
NO CHIEFS..[only elders..with the same rights as ANY OTHER]
till the corperate invader[the crown]...bought [put]all revolt down