Divine_msn,

>>"I'd expect she'd feel very angry, humiliated, probably shocked that this man had completely lost his TEMPER and given her a painful hiding, but 'sexually violated'? NO I very much doubt it."<<

So if the girl in the Ohio case felt violated by Freudenthal's actions, you would consider those feelings unreasonable?

By the way, do you reckon he was incapable of giving her a sufficiently painful hiding with her swimsuit up? (We all know how thick those swimsuit fabrics tend to be.)

>>"This is a 14 yr old who by the sounds of her out of control behaviour has probably had her knickers (willingly) pulled down a few times before and knows the difference."<<

You said you've treated rape victims. Can you clarify in what capacity, or what sort of treatment?

Anyway, if someone did this to your daughter, I doubt your opinion would hinge on questions like "How angry was the guy at the time?" or "How out of control was her behavior?" (and specifically how sexually active she was).

>>"C'mon blwpyrtv - stop weaving your own nasty little fantasies into this story."<<

I wonder if the cops and prosecutors were weaving their fantasies into this case:

The News-Times (Danbury, CT), December 3, 1996

Family Friend Charged With Bare-bottom Spanking of Girl
By Dan Wheeler

LITCHFIELD, Conn. (AP) - A little league coach accused of repeatedly spanking a little girl after pulling down her pants has been charged with sexual assault.

Ronald Ellis, 30, of New Hartford, was in Bantam Superior Court on Monday. He was released on a written promise to appear in court.

Ellis has been charged with fourth-degree sexual assault and risk of injury to a minor in the October incidents.

According to an arrest warrant, Ellis ordered a 9-year-old girl to pull down her pants so he could spank her along a remote area of the Farmington River Turnpike while they were riding bicycles and again at a New Hartford firehouse.

Ellis is a volunteer firefighter.

Police said he also choked the girl's 8-year-old brother after the boy refused to obey him. . .

"Pericles - he gave her an arse whopping. There was no mention of accusation of fondling, touching genitals, digital penetration etc." - divine_msn

The same is true in the DiPalma's case (as well as the case cited directly above), yet he's now a registered sex offender. Do you think he should only have been convicted of physical assault?

Divine:”… he gave her an arse whopping. There was no mention of accusation of fondling, touching genitals, digital penetration etc.
If I was on the jury, I'd have to find him guilty of assault but not sexual assault.”

Spanking is a common sexual act among adults. At 14 the girl may have felt sexually violated – do we let the victim decide if they felt assaulted or sexually assaulted?

Do smackers usually smack pants down and stop that at a certain age? Is there even an age limit for when they stop smacking at all? What age do they begin using smacking?

We don't let the victim decide if they FELT assaulted. Assaulted is a factual condition that must meet certain requirements if it is to be deemed an illegal act. Otherwise you might decide you'd been assaulted if you bumped into someone on the way out of the elevator. How you feel about whether you were assaulted is irrelevant to whether it is an illegal act. The test is whether the act was unlawful, and that is usually defined in terms of whether the act was indecent or sexual in nature, and whether or not there was consent.

Having said all that I tend to agree that there is a case to be made that this is a sexual assault.
1) He's not the girls father or guardian,
2) why would he need to pull down the pants of a girl wearing a bikini bottom?

I don't know why we are even discussing this incident, becase I haven't heard too many pro-smacking parents arguing for the right for anybody to smack their child. 14 years old is too old for smacking anyway. The only reason to smack a child is because they are incapable of being reasoned with, and you can't deter them any other way.

So JEWELY, BLWRPTV, according to your logic, smacking your own child leaves them vulnerable to assault by others who may use this act as cover for their predatory behaviour. Do you think we should stop bathing our children naked, because it leaves them vulnerable to perverts who might want to do the same. Should we not cuddle and kiss them, since that also leaves them vulnerable to people who might use such love for affection as cover to abuse them?

GET REAL.

So JEWELY, BLWRPTV, according to your logic, smacking your own child leaves them vulnerable to assault by others who may use this act as cover for their predatory behaviour. Do you think we should stop bathing our children naked, because it leaves them vulnerable to perverts who might want to do the same. Should we not cuddle and kiss them, since that also leaves them vulnerable to people who might use such love for affection as cover to abuse them?

Where did you put together that I was saying smacking leaves children vulnerable to assault by others Paul? Stop being a git.

“I haven't heard too many pro-smacking parents arguing for the right for anybody to smack their child. 14 years old”

That was what I was asking, when do you start and when do you finish using smacking?

Aplogies Jewely, It was BLWRPTV who was suggesting that smacking makes children more vulnerable to sexual assault.

It was your argument, that the decision on whether a crime has been committed should be based upon the feelings of the possible victim, which I was taking issue with.

I think its reasonable to smack from toddler to pre-teen. Obviously its based upon your assesment of what actually works best for that particular child.

I really take issue with the idea that smacking is more harmful to children in a long term sense. I know of families where children aren't smacked, but they wouldn't dare misbehave for abject fear of disaproval and isolation. I personally think this is far more harmful, than smacking. Smacking is done and finished with the moment its completed. You can move on straight away. This idea that my kids feel betrayed and angry because I've stooped to smacking them is nonsense. Smacking in my house is a well understood punishment for certain behviours. It is used sparingly, and often not for months at a time. At the same time I reinforce the fact that it is their behaviour which I do not approve of, not them. And I praise or reward good behaviour, wherever I see it.

I don't smack because I'm angry and I don't see it as a failure in any way. Those people who do are entitled to their opinion, what I really object to is the idea that their opinion holds more weight than mine when it comes to MY kids.

You still haven't answered the question on how best to deal with a 4 year old who runs off in the car park and won't stop when called? And please, spare me the explantion of why YOU would never have been in that situation in the first place. Everyone at some stage or other find themselves in a situation with a small child who needs some behaviour modification immediately. I know some people's kids 'well up' if you look at them the wrong way, but mine don't. Stern looks won't cut it.