Sonofgolin - you write: "Those of you, who are pro same sex adoption, give your children up to two men to raise before you unceremoniously give up some waif that has been abandoned."

I have homosexual friends whom I would have asked to raise my sons had I encountered a situation in which I couldn't do that myself.

These men are intelligent, educated, travelled, interesting, ethical and loving human beings. They play a valuable role in my family.

How many homosexuals do you know?

Diver Dan - how many homosexuals do you know?

Because once you know somebody stupid things like race and colour and sexual preference tend not to count for much when you are face to face with a human being with hopes and fears and wishes just like yours.

So live dangerously. Think of gays as human beings first.

bach - if you think gay sex is all about pleasure and not procreation, what do you think of straights who have sex and don't procreate? Are they as bad as gays in your moral universe?

And what about all the straights who continue to have sex after they've finished making babies, just for the fun of it?

Are they bad too?

This keeps coming up in this forum, doesn't it? This linking of sex with procreation, as if the procreation part makes the sex legal.

Some guilty hang up about just doing it for fun? Is that why you hate gays? Cos they do it just for fun?

Diver Dan,
You argued that the penguin argument was the basis for gay rights when it was no such thing. That is a logical fallacy. Recognised since ancient times as to deceive, to lie in argument. The penguin argument addressed the false incorrect disproven 'unnatural' argument.

Perhaps you were never taught about logical fallacies? Something hopefully soon to be fixed in our schools with Ethics classes. In which case while unintentional fallacy remains fallacy your character is not impuned only your teachers skill and/or the curiculum. But for someone complaining about 'puerile' arguments i'd have expected then to be able to avoid such basic logical fallacies. Some reading might be in order?

You suggest the 'norms of society' are any measure of morality? What an immoral argument! You just defended not only racism and sexism you also defended slavery and rape and torture as moral because at times they were the norms of society! But they were all Unethical and people using the Ethics arguments of the Enlightenment cast out such evils and injustices branding them immoral with reasons WHY they were immoral defeating those who said they were moral based on the NORMS of society! The same Ethical Principles of the Enlightenment show that Gays are not immoral!

Dan you are hundreds of years behind on the subject of Morality! Better do some remedial reading for sure!

David G
Just cause all males in some entire species are bisexual doesn't stop them mating with females in mating season.. they just mate with males the rest of the time. While in other species same-sex couples are a minority who raise orphaned and abandoned babies. In other species only a tiny number of the animals reproduce and they are very careful to only have a few reproducers born amongst the millions of sterile babies they have. Do you know nothing of Ants for example? Males mate and die. Queens reproduce, the rest, the vast majority, are all sterile females that raise the babies do the digging and the foraging and the fighting. Your knowledge of biology is sorely lacking but there are nooks out there you can read to catch up.

Now go watch a documentary on Bonobos, our nearest Ape relatives, and see what kind of sex they have.

Songofgloin
In many parts of the world in many times of history Gay and Transgender people were accepted. In Scythia and parts of Greece Transgender people were Priestesses! In ancient Greece not only was Alexander the Great Bisexual and the Spartans Bisexual but there was an entire army formed of Gay Couples reknowned for their bravery! In our Neighbouring country Tonga a few years ago a Transgender person officiated over the royal marriage! Amongst the Native Americans Gay and Transgender people were considered two-spirit people respected for their wisdom and consulted by some of the greatest of warriors and chiefs! It only took a generation or two to neatly destroy Australian Aboriginal Gay and Transgender acceptance and traditions.

Already the majority in Australia are pro-gay as shown by the Galaxy polls that have 60% in favour of same-sex marriage. Things are changing (back to traditional Gay acceptance). The evidence is before your eyes.

I think once the connection between sex and procreation is broken then sex seizes to be a full expression of love between to people and is degenerated to an act of lust to only satisfy the senses. In this society sex has become to a great extent nothing more but lust and perversion. Something people do to try and fill a void in their life which can't be filled by sex and in many instances results in adverse realities and feelings of altered self worth and disillusioned perceptions of other peoples worth.

Now to state that I hate homosexuals is an idiotic, deplorable and dangerous accusation and assumption to make. I'm a Catholic and am therefor commanded to love each and every person without judgment or condition because we recognise that all us humans are sinners and only God judges- not us. I do have homosexual friends who i care about very much.. but am strongly opposed to their way of life for obvious reasons.

Jesus saved a prostitute from being stoned to death by telling the accusers "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone" John 8:7
He then then told the woman to go and sin no more.

In addition and to answer your first question I believe that if a married couple were open to conceive yet for some reason or other be it physiological/biological or god knows, could not then it is of no fault of their own. However of a person engaging in unnatural sex such as homosexual sex is simply in it for their own pleasure and that is wrong. Here's a question for you Briar Rose: how do you feel about Swingers clubs?