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The Forum > Article Comments > Religion and science: respecting the differences > Comments

Religion and science: respecting the differences : Comments

By Michael Zimmerman, published 31/5/2010

The teachings of most mainstream religions are consistent with evolution.

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David,
When you talk about old fables, are you alluding to the one where the frog turned into a prince via a maiden’s kiss, or the amphibian that turned into a mammal through a distant and mysterious process that similarly no one’s ever witnessed?

But we regress. We can’t finish this line of thought, as you’ve already said that you are finished with discussing this issue with me. Or maybe you haven’t?

A couple of times now you’ve brought up teaching creation in schools. I don’t know of anywhere in Australia where that’s been much of an issue. I know the leading creationist bodies in Australia and America have never been interested in introducing creationism into the public school curriculum. The issue is too delicate or controversial. Public education must be run under a certain amount of consensus. There is nothing to be gained about asking a teacher to teach something that is against their inner convictions. Creationists are not interested in having their ideas floated or flouted by those who don’t care to understand it and would just rubbish it. Most of the little skirmishes in America (usually overblown by the media) were mainly started by the desire of local school boards to be free to at least discuss the issue openly.

Creationism is sometimes raised in the appropriate place. I know there was one public university in Queensland that asked creationist speaker to come each year and present before their medical students for a debate type discussion. When I was a teacher, the senior biology teacher asked me to present some ideas about creation to the seniors. He was not creationist leaning, but wanted the students to be able to deal with controversies (rather than pretend they don’t exist).

Then there is the whole realm of Christian and private education. I know of some Christian schools that are open to creationist ideas. They will wish to make kids aware of both creation and evolution. Senior students would learn important skills of comparative thinking, respectfully comparing and analysing views that are different to their own.
Posted by Dan S de Merengue, Monday, 6 September 2010 5:05:23 PM
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Dear Dan,

The following remark is why I see no point in arguing or discussing with you. You try to be cute.

You wrote: "David, When you talk about old fables, are you alluding to the one where the frog turned into a prince via a maiden’s kiss, or the amphibian that turned into a mammal through a distant and mysterious process that similarly no one’s ever witnessed?"

Can you honestly say you didn't know I was referring to the Bible?

If you can honestly say that then you're not as bright as I think you are. However, if you know I was referring to the Bible then you are being cute, and I don't appreciate it.
Posted by david f, Monday, 6 September 2010 5:17:28 PM
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There is no controversy,

The article heading this thread is clear about this.

Anybody willing to canvas biology departments at any unversity is aware of this. The tolerance of creationism is less the higher the reputation of the uni, or of individual staff members.

Anybody willing to canvas the ministers of churches with more than a few decades history is aware of this.

The only people not aware that creationism (in particular, young earth, flood geology creationism) is execrable are the cloistered, insulated children of creationists. Poor, maliformed things, doomed to peasanthood.

Dan is aware but carefully avoids saying so. I have so far given him the courtesy of being informed but dishonest, I am slowly coming to the conclusion that he is one unable to tell he has been duped. A more despicable condition, I say.

Anybody willing to put in an afternoon at the library can verify that the vilification of creationism levelled at fundies by Ian Plimer (Telling Lies for God, 1994, Random House) and Barry Price (The Creation Science Controversy, 1990, Millenium) is understated.

The question is: Why do fundy schools get funding from government when they do not teach thoroughly valid information in their science courses? They have perfectly adaequate stste schools to go to, and can indoctrinate their kids all the other 132 hours a week if they wish.

Oh, Dan, just what are Wieland's qualifications in paleontology or geology? Or extensive experience? Just to be clear as to why a book "Stones and Bones" by him could possibly of interest to a genuine scholar?
Perhaps his extensive *working* history as a medico? Or not, as the case may happen to be?

Rusty.
Posted by Rusty Catheter, Monday, 6 September 2010 7:27:26 PM
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Obviously, I meant "state schools" and 138 Hours a week.

Rusty
Posted by Rusty Catheter, Monday, 6 September 2010 7:48:01 PM
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not much/here..to bounce-off
and nothing/..to rebut

we all..have our fixed/beliefs
as..even moses/found...in..the desert

noting mosus...didnt/leave...the desert
and that/only...the children..enterd..the 'pro-missed/land']

meaning..all/the old[fixed/minded]..generation/needed to die
to get..the new/thought..new-way...under way...

but sadly..i have/no passion..for delving-in/the past...
only so-far..as/it has lessons..for the present..

and as/far-as..the past/goes..[re evolving..the THEORy/religion..of evolution/unity..in christs-church

well..lets just/say..the waters/have become..so muddied..
[by real lies/deceptions..ommisions...and plain/out-right..fraud]

..it quite/simply..has-no honour...
even amoung,..its own/peers..[especially/amoung..its'peers']

but..like/the exiles..roaming in the desert..for want of believing..the forward/scouts..lopsided...opposing reports..

of the/promised land...with grapes..as big-as..grape-fruit...[every/bit..as absurd..as genus/evolving...grapes..into/grape-fruit]

well..you can/see..how my heart/tells..my head
but my head..over-rules my heart

i know..the most..vile/opposing..my knowing..
yet are/my equal..[in-that/we equally-share..gods-gifts.]
..and his/law/love of..freedom/of beliving..as we/will]

it/is..futile/to point-again..to the clear/lack..of fact
sustaining..the thesis/of species/evolving exta-genus..

as imposable/improbable..as the fat/christ/..replacement[satan-clause]..fitting down..a 4 inch/stove-pipe...and leaving gifts..direct from mums..coal-bucket

the sad/thing...is..your missing/the best..thing[god]
you give..that god/did/does..and make/it..accident/chance

if god/stopped-doing/what god do/does..
then-there/would simply..be..nothing
and the..good/thing is..you would/never know..

because your/logic..would-be..like a candle-flame..
blown-out..by the wind...

just like-it..never/was..

but luckilly..god wont/let-this..happen

as much as-we..who love...him/to come-out..and validate/it
this..too cannot come-to/pass...

god wont threaten/you..nor hurt-you

get/over..the lies..of those calling/themselves..your betters
there is none/better/none worse..

in gods eyes..we..from..the worst/to the best..
are equally loved/by..the at-one-ment..[all]..we call good..[god]

my sadness/is..you cant/all..allow your-selves[even]to know-it..
[if/not..in your heart..then at lest..in your mind[logic..action-reaction...seek to know/cause]

we have/seen...the earth-quake..in christ/church
its nothing-like the..pole-shift..comming up dec/2012
but these/are..the physical/fruit..of what/the spirits...under-write

i suppose/it great..being/the fool
people ignore-you..and im fine..with my voice.not being heard..on the streets..and live/by picking-up the coal/utttering my word..s/word,..knowing words/are..sacred/holy[wholy]..even..the breaking of/this seal/..needs the others be broken

but the sum-total..of all words/all meaning..
is not/a scrap..on the extent..of the be-all/of good[god]

..you ignore..to your/own loss...
for your/as much..of his story
as he is..in yours..

see the gifts..he give so freely

he dont/even seek..gratitude..
not loyalty..not obediance...nor..tyth
at least..give him/some..thought

FORCE/those..who would deney/him..
to..at last/least..explain..THEIR case..!

stop/your..absurd/fear of..gods-love/grace/mercy/life/

good/god

[yes..get over..death-too]
ENERGY...cant be CREATED..nor destroyed

GET IT...

your spirit/belings-to god

as much as electricity/
belong's..to the power-company

your body..is only..a vessel/vassel
that builds..your soul-body
to hold..your..life/living/spirit..

for eternity
Posted by one under god, Monday, 6 September 2010 8:49:35 PM
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when/rusty..finally give up profess-hoaring..he will be a great/comedian

to wit read his/quote...<<Please explain/how...*fixation*..of..*mutations..*>>

how funny/is that..?

if i/need to explain..the joke to you
you must be a BELIEVER...of the fraud
..of genus evolving..VIA CHANGE....
[because NOTHING...is *fixed]
thats..the WHOLE-thing..about mutt-ations..lol

but thats/like casting pearl/..before swine..
you dont-know..the topic...enough..to get/the JOKE

here is/his next howler...lol..

recall fixed/change/mutation<<in a..selective/environment..is not important...LOL..to the.."information content"..of a genome.>>

again you will/not comprehend...his..REV-elation..[joke]

he is saying/mutation/isnt important
as to genome/content..to wit..its adding nothing..!
to..."information/content..of the species/genus..[genome]

more..<<Please/give..a clear defintion-of..three types/of..information...REMEMBER..this question..it repeats..lol

<<..known to-be encoded..by clearly/understood components/of..the genome>>...such is/a professor...lol..professing nothing/..but spin

<<and how/you-have..developed..a way/to conveniently-measure..thses independently..>>>thses..[these?/thesis?]..lol..who-knows..lol

see/the absurdity..
science..MUST*-USE METHOD-ology..
..terms/names..concepts../comprehensable to/your..peers

see..pheno-typically...DOESNT..give much/of..a clue..
of the measure/of..GENO-typical inheritors..[but again.pearl./before/wine]..

and..he/is playing..on-it

<<and..without/reference..to their heritable-variability/and selection,>>..he/is..quoting 1 st year-student/questions,now lol

<<without/reference..to the environment..that selects/them.>>
here is..an absurdity...

see environment..cant select
environment..provides..oppertuinity..
then/that which best..SURVIVES.the environment...live's

that which cant..dont
[as selected..FROM..present life/making like[life]

<<Hint:..all three>>>all three/what?...[re-read/ist/question]..lol

all..3..?..<<..may be embodied..in the one length/of DNA,>>>or 50..or 100..

NOT ALL<<sharing the same sequence,>>..get the deciete..
how it/sounds logical...
cause you..NEED/to believe..he/is giving info..!
but only repeated..the same/question[twice]..
one-more..time..to/go

<<yet be/different..to a...[lol]similar-but-different/sequence..[lol]encoding..an identical-protein..but containing..less/selectable information>>>

CANT YOU SEE
YOU HAVE BEEN FED spin
not meat...not food..just random...facts

WHERE IS..THE BIG..punchline
this is the best/proof..you can give
for a lie/of evolving-out..of..into..by chance..into new-genus

yes i..know/you fail-to see..the joke[its not funny to me either]

but see...how/the wise..[in their own-eyes]
confound the fool..who believes...anything

recall..davids quote

men/can rationalise..any absur-ditty
as long-as they WANT/
need..have/to believe...it

to be..one/of...]lol]..the herd..
run with/the peers
be/in..the cool/club
on the..'winning-team'...lol

its your/belief
believe..if you must

but at/least..think.
.on what...might-be..the REAL/truth
real/cause..the real-way..the real-means..the truth

can you even handle ...the truth?

you will/be ridiculed..by ignorant's
outcast..from your former-peers..

nope..your just/not the right-stuff
[thats not me/saying this..but your own-mind]

WHO-LOVES-YA..?
start/with-a...G..
Posted by one under god, Monday, 6 September 2010 9:31:36 PM
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