yes....im not..insensative...
i can/feel...your pain

i can/also..hear/the wailing..the/gnashing..of teeth
and really..i know/..how you feel

i was/raised..with-the..evolving-delusion
[for more-than..half..of my/life]
i too/was godless...for too-long

i was/told..
trust science/son
/no god..would allow..the evil..to prevail

anyhow/its time..to grow-up
i been feeding..you milk/
its/time..you eat/meat

meet..god...he is/here...
right..in your own..living/beating-heart

so what/does..good/god do...for you
he sustains..your every/breath
beats..your..every/heart-beat

he does/all those..natural/..life-sustaining..process's..
your-decievers..term..natural[autonimouse]...
cause they-have..no idea..how..'it'..works...either

in every/second...millions..of your/body-cells
do their..vairious..bits...

just the/actions..of a single..dna
dividing-off..its rna..let..alone the/actions..of the rna
[is..beyond/any..super-computer..even following

[let/alone..replicating]..

yet..your/faithfull..SERVANT..[god]..good..
does it..so effortlesly
so naturally...

after-all..it..is/his..nature..[to wit...nurture]

but i/feel...im still..talking-to..the deaf/blind

how-can you..look/closely..at a..simple-flower
or your hand...and NOT-see..it is/..amasing

yes man-kind[child],..
ie..reality=man-kind=man-child*

can/make...a..fake/flower..that ALMOST/looks..real
but..it[the flowerr/..cant/make..others/after..its/own-kind

yes..man-child..can-make...a..hand
but lets/face-it..
it is..a crude/deception..of the/hand..god/made...you

and every/artifice..of man-kind...is..as/if..nothing..
compared..to that/..god..gives/...freely...to even/the most/vile

its sad...you..are/afraid..of god
think..how scared..
those who..decieved-you...must feel

yet even/they..are beloved..by/god..
to all...
assuridly..more/of..the same..[will-be/given]

[and remember..that..we/they..do/did..
to the least
..we/they..do/did..to him

and..giving-back..to ceaser...costs money/pride
giving/back-to..god..is/as simple..as loving..neighbour

anyhow..in/time..i hope..you will forgive/me..
for..
[s]..tress-passing..on your..de-lusioning..be-liefs

because..i know..gods most/treasured..rule..
is freewill/to believe..any delusion..

yet..i know..god will..forgive/me...
just as/he..has forgiven..you

because ..uch-is the/truth..the nature/nurture..[good]..god

of the..all loving/..all living..all good/god
and it/is..this error..i hoped-to..awaken you from

i would thank-those..who bravely/..put forward..their beliefs
know..it matters/not-in..the leaast..to good/god
whatever..your beliefs..are

yes it/does matter..to the many...
who also love..the/good

but why/should..they loose..their good..and by hate..
draw/them-selves..away from,..good/god
..by hating/despising..the ignorant/..
chosing..to/be..decieved

i should/be..feeling good..
that i.have..in part..rebutted/some-of..your faulse/beliefs
but the truth is...

im not/going to..wake-you..in the next/life
because..i see/how much..you resent/it..being/attempted..here-now

you-all/..still..hold..your..own/thought
as/it must..be

god rekons...its/more important..to/believe..wrong
than to..believe/...nothing

[the vision/is salt/that has..lost..its flavour]

anyhow..i could/keep on..raving
but its/time..to do..some/thinking
getting..[into the flow of/logus/logic]

i would/love..to keep-on..re-butting/error
but..like anything...it/can become..an obsession

and it/..overwelming obsessions/..about anything..
form..the/realm ...of our..next/life...

and i have..no/will..to be-delivered..to the/obsession/realm
you might/say..my single obesssion/..is not/obsessing

second/comes..dont leave-em..guessing

open/your eyes
take a/walk..in the garden

you will see/..a flower...looking/directly..at you
know/the logic..behind..it/looking..
is..the same logus/logic..sustaining all-being..into being

sustaining all/living..into living
sustaining all/loving..into love

stop/feeding delusions,,know the facts
and all facts..have a logus/logic-call/..fruit

cause
action
re-action

OUG,

I feel no pain over the Evolution issue at all, its just a matter of pragmatism based on known evidence.

Whar is reply to my earlier post regards our OLO colleagues Dan and George having differen perspectives to you? If I am representing them correctly: Dan not believing in Evolution full stop, despite science. George, accepting Evolution while seemingly remaoning a good Catholic.
Dan sees faith trumping the results science and George, seeing God outside the naive God of the Gaps dialogue.

Dan,

Dan I gained the impression that the Sagan quote from your copy of Sagan (1977), what did he say i9n context, without the the elipsis?

Moreover, on the issue of the rewriting the Genesis in the Dead Seas period. The physical works exists and has been held in the hands of living scholars (e.g. Eismann). Its a bit like saying the Daring Harbour Complex doesn't exist, because the buildings (warehouses?) that previously existed are still there. Noreover, that someone three hundred years (2310 CE) from now (read Constantine) thinks like you. The physcial dead seas scholls exit, alernative gospels before Constatine exist...EXIST..PHYSICALLY EXIT.

Constantine and the first Christian emperors acted like Hilter and Stalin to quash panism to exent Paul Helenised Church to institutionis Christian Judaism, with comprises to Seapapis and Mythas. Jesus' Jewish sect was outside of orthodoxy. Moreover, the trinity is greater conprise to polythesism to Jewish.

Christianity is not Jesus and not Judaism. Is an embellishment of the transition of lore to the gospels, to quasi-institutionalisation )Latisation (c.190-250) to Paul (ratifying Christ as God) to Constantine (institutionalisation and creed), thence the Holy Roman Empire... history ... KNOWN HISTORY.

Let's try again:

Constantine and the first Christian emperors acted like Hilter and Stalin to quash pangism to extend Paul Hellenised Church to institutionised Christian Judaism, with compromises to Serapis and Mythras. Jesus' Jewish sect was outside of orthodoxy. Moreover, the trinity is too greater compromise to polythesism for the truly monotheistic Jewish faith.

its not for me to say/one-way..or the other
[what/dan..or george..or runner..or david/rusty..or you..believe]

god dont care..why should i
the main thing is that they feel passion
about whatever/they believe

we will all have a long-time...[an eternity..in fact]
to bring our loves..into realisation
whatever our loves may-be

science...cant even explain..how/when we got here
there are pholosopers..holding philosophies..
that still havent resolved..in the thousands of years/since their passing...yes the opposing schools..still oppose

just as rev/explains..that of rev..22;11
there are those loving the light/knowing of the light
yet still chosing to live in the darkness...and god allows/that

put yourself...in satans/footwear
there is god...just made/the first..'clay-man'[adam]

he is chuffed..to make this living/breathing..goyum
and says..to the angels...'bow down before him'

satan/rightly refuses...
[he would only bow-down..before his maker]
not that his maker/made..from clay
[after all he was made from fire[passion]...pure/spirit]

and the dummy..[sorry adam//metaphoric/licence]
cant even grasp..the amasing benificience..
god bestowed..upon this mere/goyum

anyhow/satan/refused...as if we could judge/why
he was cast from the light...into this realm
[because he rejected..the light..ie had freewill]

you think god wasnt smiling inside
just like any-one...seeing origonal-thinking..
a mere ant..[sorry stan]..deneying the all/mighty

just as copy-cats..yet do to/this day
there is nothing/new...about a rebel/thinking...itself..a cause

its when/man...can explain..the how/why
and still let others/have the joy of self discovery

oh how to explain..that so obvious..to all in time
well thankfully its not my call

george/dan/runner/oliver..david...yes even rusty
could explain it better..but then it wouldnt be the foolish
refuting the wise...

anyhow...rebut the dummy
words are my s/word

just like/where the bible says fire
it means passion

anyhow..our father..who art/..in our heart
and all/the other hearts..that ever lived

hello...be thy name

good-bye..all

Dear Oliver,

I thought this thread has run its course for me, but …

>> George, accepting Evolution while seemingly remaining a good Catholic.<<
Why mention me and not e.g. the Pope who also “accepts Evolution while seemingly remaining a good Catholic.”

>>Constantine and the first Christian emperors acted like Hilter and Stalin<<
Knowing your history prowess, and an awareness of evolution manifested also in history, I was somewhat surprised at you making this comparison.

I am not a historian, but I think
(a) there is much more known about Hitler’s or Stalin’s atrocities than about those of Constantine (or Genghis Khan, for that matter) to compare when passing judgements;

(b) what was so abhorrent about Hitler and Stalin was the fact that these things happened in the 20th century when our civilisation should have evolved through the many centuries since Constantine (a believer in flat Earth would be a fool in Hitler’s but not in Constantine’s times; perhaps something similar could be said about dealing with one’s ideological, ethnic etc. adversaries).

However in my mind the most important difference is (c): the poltical system and "culture" Hitler and Stalin wanted to achieve lasted (thanks God) only a decade or two, whereas Constantine’s Christendom lasted well over a millennium, eventually leading to Enlightenment etc, showing that it was apparently an important period in the evolution of the West, and not just an ugly short-lived aberration like the other two. (Never mind that some anti-Christians want to pass as just an unnecessary aberration also something that lasted over a millennium.)

Oliver,
You’re not interpreting me very well. I don’t know where you’re getting your data for how you’re representing me recently. Not from anything I’ve said. Like most, I’m a big fan of science.

The word ‘evolution’ has many shades of meaning. It can mean change. Yes, things change. But no, all living things having descended from a single cell ancestor is an enchanting idea not well supported by hard science.

FYI,
“Large organisms such as human beings average about one mutation per ten gametes-that is, there is a 10 percent chance that any given sperm or egg cell produced will have a new and inheritable change in the genetic instructions that determine the makeup of the next generation. These mutations occur at random and are almost uniformly harmful-it is rare that a precision machine is improved by a random change in the instructions for making it.

Most of these mutations are also recessive-they do not manifest themselves immediately. …” CS, Dragons, p18.

David,
I’m sorry my posts bore you, and that you have stopped wanting to engage with me. I try to spice things up from time to time. I like to throw in the odd unpalatable fact, or a quote that sticks in the craw of some, or an alternative line of thought; toss in some information to make some a little uncomfortable with the status-quo.

It appears that at least a few others think my posts are interesting enough that they want to engage.

Please don’t say AJ ever had my mindset. In saying that, you’re mistaken.

Rusty,
My first presumption is that Sagan meant what he said.