2)
It would be easy for me to stop at 1), but I too am amazed that a registered? organisation could involve itself in a PERSONAL bunfight in the manner in which it has.

The important work of PALEaIF cannot be underestimated. I wholeheartedly support it. BUT...;

would I ever join your organisation? No chance! Specifically because PERSONAL views and opinions have REPEATEDLY been expressed under the PALEaIF banner; and this has been REPEATEDLY justified by P/L.

With the greatest of respect; I believe that that has seriously damaged the standing of P/F as a valuable organisation.

At the very least IF members of P/F are not allowed membership as individuals AND a P/F m/ship; then ANY response or opinion of/from an INDIVIDUAL and NOT P/F should carry a qualifier that that was the case.

That has not occurred; rather to the contrary, and that I humbly suggest is what is causing more than a little angst.

Please believe me I had told myself the forum is the first thing we should be concerned about.
Far too many sites are gone via minor disputes that got out of hand.
I now explain something about why I was so hurt by a post.
It is gone now deleted? but it rehashed a claim that I am not a paid union official.
One made and used by another union, spread around construction sites to defame me, it has been proved untrue many times.
But it hits hard at my heart my very reason for living.
It is my personal view the union of tomorrow will be mainstream, unafraid to sit down and get the best deal for its members.
I hate threats on work sites, from unions or bosses.
And forever want the center unions to understand we must publicly untie our selfs from thuggery.
That insult was passed to a group who I RIGHT OR WRONG DO NOT DISLIKE, BUT BELIEVE FAR TOO MANY DIFFERENT PEOPLE ARE POSTING AS.
I have been in conversation here with more than one poster using that tag?
the barbs and insults are not worth concern but far from small or rare.
Let us try to stay on track RObert has done no wrong BOAZ Davids last post here says it all Graham has not offended me and done a good job, is it not worth considering this question?
Is it good manners to have more than one person using a tag?
And is it hard to change.
Given the depth of contempt I hold for those who manufactured the insult some years ago, and the fact it found its way here I question why would the group known as pale not be concerned at needless involvement with elements of radical unionism?
Why let such a group dirty its hands?
However I do understand they did not understand the full impact of the information given to them by another poster.
And having been given that information I ask that they do not again defame anyone as a debating tool

A little secret:
A long time ago, in another country, a group of teenagers were conspiring to gut an outbound fair-sized ship that carried hundreds of cattle, sheep, pigs, you name it and amongst them, were seperate cages containing dogs and cats, not listed on the official itinery for export along with the cattle, to various countries.
The group of teenagers had obviously done a lot of homework, motivated from a tip-off from a person working for an export company.

Although they were well aware of the state they would find the poor animals in, stored in the bowels of this ship, they had not prepared themselves for what they witnessed, after having sneaked on-board during the night, prior the ship leaving the following day.

The teenagers found that the dogs and cats were not being exported as live stock, but as meat, skinned and hung inside seperate cages away from the cattle.
If it had not been for the scream from one of the teenagers on being the first to make the find, they could have alerted the proper authorities at the time, but again, the outrage was covered up and later found out, that all the authorities found in the hold, was in fact live cattle. No-one ever found out where the dogs and cats had disappeared to. The teenagers were arrested that night and maybe for good reason, they were about to scuttle the ship without thinking of the animals inside. Possibly motivation to not let export of live animals continue?

The latest posts from Ginx must be from an imposter. They were sensibly written with no 'sighs', 'umms' or other stupid exclamations and 'deliberate spelling mistakes'. The usual lack of logic was lacking.

This just couldn't be my wee Ginx.

Belly, I don't share your view that many posters are posting as PALE. There was one case where the person using that site name claimed to be someone else. I highlighted that from a recollection that it was against the rules, Antje provided an explanation which whilst I don't personally like would fit within the rules and Graham has demonstrated the importance of that rule in the scheme of things. It was never intended to be a main point in this thread, if I'd considered it a serious issue I would have recommended the post for deletion. If multiple people are using the one login name they each get less posts than they would otherwise so there is no gain for them.

It would ease things if Antje could include her name on posts under the PALE banner so that we were able to respond without accused of criticising the organisation. I think that many of us who disagree with Antje on a variety of issues share a dislike of live exports and animal crulety. Others have made the point very well about the risk to their work in allowing that situation to continue.

Whilst threads like this carry a risk I like the fact that most of this discussion was confined to one thread, I hope that has reduced the impact of this discussion on other threads. I end up having mixed feelings about responding to the many false claims that have been made about myself on this and other threads. I've tried to rebutt the more obvious ones (but have not got them all so don't assume no rebuttal means a claim is true). I've not seen any withdrawal of any of the original claims on the basis of a detailed rebuttal but hopefully others have the picture by now. On the other hand rebutting those lies seems to just add fuel to the fire and prolong this.

Cheers all.
R0bert

Wow. Interesting thread.

I notice plenty of concern that the reputation of PALE is at risk. Has anyone thought of the reputation of OLO?

The skullduggery around here can be pretty obvious sometimes. It doesn't take all that long to work out the difference between genuine commenters and those playing a variety of games this medium makes possible. When people abuse it, even inadvertently, it lowers the value of the exercise for all of us.

Personally I'd hate to see this site's reputation trashed because a few take advantage.

For that reason, regardless of whoever, or whatever, PALE purports to be or any of the other details raised in this thread, thank you rObert for raising the issue. It's about time.