Infection or vaccination, which is best? It is a hell of a difficult question, not helped by big Phama loving health professionals & Politicians telling stories.

A shocking new study from Israel compares the protection offered by vaccine-induced immunity versus natural immunity from a previous COVID-19 infection and finds the latter offers far more robust protection from infection, symptomatic disease, and hospitalization.

Natural immunity confers much longer lasting protection

Directly comparing 16,215 previously COVID-19 infected individuals to 16,215 fully vaccinated individuals, 10 physicians (Gazit et al., 2021) preliminarily report (pre-print) fully vaccinated people are (a) 13 times more likely to be infected with COVID-19, (b) 27 times more likely to be symptomatically infected, and (c) 8 times more likely to be hospitalized than unvaccinated people with a prior COVID infection (natural immunity).

Vaccine effectiveness declines 56% within just 70 days

A new study published in The Lancet reports an initial surge of antibody protection for those who have received the second dose of the Pfizer vaccine.

Unfortunately, within weeks after the last shot, vaccine effectiveness begins to dramatically decline. In just 2½ months, Pfizer vaccine antibody levels have plummeted by 56%.

Within the last week, two more studies (Liu et al., 2021, Yahi et al., 2021) suggest the more recent variants (Delta) are resisting vaccine neutralization. Worse, current vaccines may even enhance COVID’s Delta variant’s infectivity by spawning more resistant mutations.
“[T]he emergence of SARS-CoV-2 variants may tip the scales in favor of infection enhancement. Our structural and modeling data suggest that it might be indeed the case for Delta variants” [Yahi et al., 2021].

Furthermore, “boosters,” or third shots, may actually “boost enhancing anti-bodies” more than neutralizing antibodies (Liu et al., 2021).

In other words, vaccines may be worsening the current COVID surge.

It does look as if we should perhaps forget vaccines, & develop effective antiviral treatments such as developed for HIV, then let infection rip.

Hasbeen,

You are wary of vaccination, and what you do is entirely your business. But, as you are asking, my opinion is that at your age, you should get vaccinated ASAP. Covid can kill people of our generation. I'm fully vaccinated: last jab in July. No different from the 'flu injection I've been getting for years. Didn't feel it go in. No after reactions.

Best not to listen to these doom -sayers and scaremongers. They are as unreliable as the climate worrywarts.

I'm all for everyone being vaccinated, and telling the government to piss off and leave us alone. It's not their job to be mollycoddling everyone and running our lives.

Hasbeen

This is a free country. You don’t wish to take the vaccine, don’t do it.

The objective of the vaccine is not commonly recognised. The objective is to restore society to a fully functioning unit. That is a desirable position for all and everyone.

That is also a position which requires cooperation and acceptance by all, that the economic and personal disruptions of COVID-19 are hugely negative to the majority of society, and in particular, those engaged in its economic continuance, the workers that pay taxes, which in turn pay for your pension.

I can’t see where anyone is making the claim that the vaccine renders immunity to Covid-19.
What is being claimed is the vaccine is keeping the extreme effects of the virus to a minimum, and thus reducing the burden on health system, inclusive of hospitals in particular.

The problem Australia is having, is dragging the chain in the vaccine inoculation rate.
Your thinking, and the thinking of others like you, which in a very narrow minded and selfish focus, are hampering the efforts to restore the country from the devastation of the virus.

You need to get out of the kitchen and leave Flo and Joe to finish baking pumpkin scones, and renewing faded curtains.

As proof:
I’m acquainted with people in many and various parts of the world, including Dubai, one of the highest vaccinated countries.
One relation has just returned to Dubai from Germany after running in a marathon. Immediately after which he climbed aboard a plane for Ireland.
Do you get it?
Him and his partner have been given the two inoculations of both AZ and Pfizer.
They are free to roam.
On the other hand, South Africa, an under vaccinated Country in contrast, people are dying in droves.

Dan

ttbn I don't have a formed opinion, & I am looking at everything trying to make an informed decision on vaccines.

It would help if I didn't know that authorities are desperately trying to hide all the bad news about them, & feeding us garbage about antivirals. This raises my suspicions that there is a hidden motive, even if only to hide that they have bought the least effective vaccine from the voters.

I don't like being treated as a mushroom, kept in the dark & fed bull droppings, by our authorities, it gets my hackles up. It makes it very hard to trust them, when they won't trust us with the facts.

After 3 heart attacks, clotting is probably more dangerous for me than most. With honest facts, I could easily decide the vaccine is still the best choice. I'm not particularly worried about dying, at my age it has to come sometime soon, but would like the opportunity to make an informed decision about what I do about it.

Dear Hasbeen,

Damn old cock, you really are in a different world to the rest of us aren't you.

Firstly when you are posting crap it is a really good idea to provide a source or a link to where you copied and pasted the information from.

Here it is: “http://notrickszone.com/2021/08/26/vaccinated-27x-more-likely-to-be-symptomatically-infected-than-unvaccinated-whove-had-covid/”

But it really isn't “shocking” is it.

Vaccine immunity is less than that provided by someone having having had the full blown disease? Who would of thought?

Oh of course it is, and that is probably true for almost every disease that there is a vaccine for.

Vaccines lose their effectiveness? Of course they bloody do, it is why you need boost shots.

But this: “In other words, vaccines may be worsening the current COVID surge.” really does take the cake. What a particularly stupid thing to say.

You advocating that people should forgo the protection of a vaccine is borderline criminal.

This is how cockamamie your thinking is. In NSW there have been 53 deaths from 330 Covid infections in the 80-89 age group.
http://www.nsw.gov.au/covid-19/find-the-facts-about-covid-19

So nearly 1 in 5 of those who contract the disease in that age group are dying from it. Yet you are saying you don't want to get a shot because the vaccines are 'experimental'. For God's sake mate, do you have any sense of how utterly thick in the head would someone have to be to turn away a free vaccine which would dramatically reduce those odds? That someone your age is scared off because of possible long term impacts of the vaccine is mindblowingly cretinous. Truthfully you really don't have that many years left and there will likely be a hell of a lot of other things that will bite you on the bum instead.

You are the typical mug punter, waging on an extreme outside chance when the shoe in favourite is sitting right in front of you.

Get a bloody grip mate.

Old people who've had heart attacks & have been saved by modern medicine are worried about getting immunised ?
80-90 year olds who already have one foot in the grave & the other on a banana skin worried about the vaccine ?
Do they think they'll live forever ? I know people who said they'll "wait & see how the vaccine works out" before they consider getting immunised. Looks like they don't mind other people taking the risk & the possibility of getting infected by anti-vaxxers ?

Dear individual,

Indeed.

On Reddit there are things called sub-reddits which people can create and then attract subscribers.

There is one is called the Herman Cain Award and can be found here: http://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/

For those who don't know who Herman Cain was pat of his Wikipedia bio is as follows.

“Cain opposed masking mandates during the COVID-19 pandemic. He attended the 2020 Trump Tulsa rally on June 20 and was photographed not wearing a face mask in a crowd who also were not wearing masks. On June 29, Cain tested positive for COVID-19 during the COVID-19 pandemic in Georgia and was admitted to an Atlanta-area hospital two days later. On July 2, Cain's staff said there was "no way of knowing for sure how or where" he contracted the disease. Dan Calabrese, the editor of Cain's website, said, "I realize people will speculate about the Tulsa rally, but Herman did a lot of traveling [that] week, including to Arizona where cases [were] spiking.""

The subreddit relates the stories of anti-vaxxers who have past away from the virus many recanting their opposition on their death beds but certainly not all.

When you first visit it can be easy to think it serves them right and that they brought this on themselves. And to a degree they did. However I quickly found myself being quite sorry for many of them. They are the victims of misinformation and have been swayed by political forces that really is just using them as fodder.

Quote:

Nearly half of House Republicans still won't say publicly​ whether they are vaccinated against Covid-19, even as new cases rise nationwide.

Some of the 97 Republicans who aren't sharing their vaccination status told CNN they don't have a responsibility to model behavior to their constituents.

"I don't think it's anybody's damn business whether I'm vaccinated or not," Republican Rep. Chip Roy of Texas told CNN. "This is ridiculous, what we're doing. The American people are fully capable of making an educated decision about whether they want to get the vaccine or not."
End quote

http://edition.cnn.com/2021/07/22/politics/house-republicans-vaccination-rates/index.html

It is a very strange world we have become.

Hasbeen, why do you consider such an easy question to be difficult?

Of course Covid vaccinations should be continued. They reduce the chances of infection and the severity of symptoms in those who are infected.

Exposure to the virus itself may result in longer lasting immunity (though I wouldn't rely on that conclusion from just a single study). But you seem to be wrongly assuming that the vaccine would prevent this.

It is not clear exactly which Liu et al 2021 study you are referring to, but they're all very technical and do not suggest the vaccines may be worsening the Covid surge. That suggestion appears to be the result of an antivaxer trying to use studies he doesn't understand to support his predetermined conclusion.

Hassy,

I think many here have expressed an opinion as to the merits of vaccination. Not only am I in favour of vaccination, I favour it being made compulsory for all those eligible. You may have underlying health conditions that make you a higher risk, and possibly on doctors advice exempt from vaccination. You know as well as I do that the Palaszczuk government has done its very best at protecting you and I from Covid, but government can do only so much. BTW that's not a biased political comment, the Liberal Marshall in SA has done an excellent job as well in trying to protect his state from the virus.

The WA police commissioner has added his ignorance to the the debate by coming out with the troppo edict that non-vaccinated officers will have to wear masks. Vaccination has nothing to do with masks - the vaccinated are still required to wear masks inside; and there has NEVER been a case of transmission in the open air. WA cops are not pleased, and many of them have taken the opportunity to express their embarrassment at having to bully people with laws they are in disagreement with They now feel bullied by their commissioner.

there has NEVER been a case of transmission in the open air.
ttbn,
how & when was that established as fact ? I've known many people who died very young & also very old long before COVID-19. remember when AIDS forst came onto the market ? Everyone died of AIDS just as everyone now dies of COVID. These days, Media fashion seems to dictate what people die of.
When someone young dies of a vaccine don't query the vaccine , find out out what was wrong with the patient !

Individual,

I'm referring to covid infections.

"To 8pm last night, there were 1,218 cases of community transmission, and we extend our deepest condolences to six families of loved ones who died of COVID," NSW Premeir Gladys Berejiklian said.

"Three people in their 80s, three people in their 70s, four of them were unvaccinated and two of them had only had one dose of the vaccine."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-29/covid-live-blog-nsw-press-conference-vic-lockdown/100415572

Get vaccinated people.

Some time ago I watched an interview with a top American CEO of a big corporation. The interviewer asked the CEO; "Why do you get paid $5 million a year?" The CEO didn't answer, because I make the company lots of money, or I'm really smart, what he said was; "Because I take RESPONSIBILITY". It makes me think of the Gladys Virus in NSW, the daily deaths and mass infections. I ask, who should take RESPONSIBILITY for the failure, and who should be A-Holed out of town, who gets the big bucks to take such a RESPONSIBILITY the answer is simple, Berejiklian and Hazzard, the pair should be run out of town for gross negligence! Not being paid over $500k and $400k like these pair of clowns are at the moment!

The conversation gets sillier by the day.

This whole thing is now divided on political lines. The left always take the fascist position of government always right (If it is left) and must be obeyed. Also everyone must be oppressed and impoverished especially anyone trying to run a small business. Vaccines compulsory!
The Right want to keep away from compulsion but still try and force vaccination.
In the real world Israel has been hugely successful in vaccinating but the darned virus makes fools of them by infecting people at the same rate.
You want to oppress me but I will be as awkward and cantankerous as I can be. Shove your useless vaccines and remember you have put back the cause of vaccines by many years because of your own actions.
Let me die of the dreaded Delta (Lol) but do not lecture me because I regard you as stupid and unworthy of my obedience.

Hi there STEELEREDUX...

Shortly before I was sent overseas with the Oz military in 1964 (Malay/Thai Border), we were all injected with at least 5 needles simultaneously and all in the left arm. Apart from coughing up some thick, vile-smelling yellow phlegm and a bloody big sore where the Smallpox 'scrapping' was done, none of us was the worst for wear over the next 24/36 hours.

Since then, if vaccination has been suggested to me by my trusted GP, I'll have it, including Shingles, osteoporosis and the yearly flu needle. I've already had my first AZ jab and scheduled the second shot (booster) at the beginning of October.

To me, the risk of some scarce side-effect(s) is less concerning than suffering from the disease or the illness that you're trying to avoid via vaccination.

It seems to me that the idiots we have for politicians keep coming up with reasons why we shouldn't expect things to get better, but still pretend they can save us. I wish they would butt out, let let it rip, so that nature can take its course. The bit of life that they have left us with is not worth living right now.

Dear o sung wu,

Indeed. I lived a good part of my childhood in SEA and all our vaccinations needed to be up to date before we left the country.

During your time in Malaya you would have undoubtedly seen those with small pox scars, something the newer generations or even those Australians who didn't travel, were never confronted with.

I am slightly puzzled by the reticence now and the cries of "freedoms being stolen" just because vaccines will once again be required for travel.

As JBowyer puts it this has become political which normally means a degree of common sense flies out the window. This time it is a rather large chunk unfortunately.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bwEb4v5vq4

Covid vaccinations have become a political issue, to divert attention away from the fact that they failed to suppress it.

Gladys, and the people of New South Wales have brought a permanent hell upon the rest of the country, Scomo as well.

'QR code check-ins, yet-to-be-developed vaccination passports, density requirements and mask use would be long-term suppression tools.'

Living with Covid means that:
Now we have to live in hell FOREVER.

Scomo and Berejiklian schould be removed from office and tried for the deaths of thousands.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9939465/Coronavirus-Australia-Millions-need-booster-Covid-vaccines-years-says-Dr-Kerry-Chant.html

How Australians will need to get regular Covid vaccines for YEARS to come – as NSW's top doctor warns the virus may be with us forever

"Ms Berejiklian said the rate of hospitalisations per COVID-19 infection would continue to fall as more NSW residents are vaccinated, but the overall number of hospitalisations was likely to rise as infections increase."

She expects infections to increase.
She thinks that total infections 'isn't relevant'.

She should've been removed from office after the Ruby Princess debacle to protect the rest of the country.

Glady 'Pol Pot' Berejiklian has brought a permanent hell upon our nation forever, that doesn't just affect you, but your kids and grandkids and everyone you care about as well.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/past-covid-19-infection-gives-more-protection-dsvn26scn

"Having antibodies against Covid-19 from a previous infection may offer more protection against the Delta variant than being fully vaccinated against the disease, a study suggests.

The study found that people who had tested positive for Covid-19 were less likely to become infected, ill or need hospital treatment with the Delta strain than those who had two doses of the Pfizer vaccine but no previous infection."

Well that being the case, perhaps the best strategy is to get vaccinated, with 3 shots to be on the safe side, one month apart, only then, 2 weeks later, to get exposed to the virus itself while at one's peek immunity.

A more cautious approach would be to first receive two dozes of a standard good vaccine, then at peek immunity receive a weakened-virus, live attenuated vaccine.

The big challenge is how to avoid infecting others during the process: it can only be done when everyone in a designated area receives the vaccines and virus at almost the same time, then nobody leaves the area (or comes in unless already exposed) for any reason whatsoever during the next 14 days.

This is to be repeated periodically (perhaps semi-annually) to retain the immune level, but no vaccines are needed afterwards, only the virus itself.

Once the whole country is covered, all that is left is to make sure that people remain continually exposed to the virus, so no vaccines will be needed (other than to the immune-compromised), just perhaps "breath-in" stations in pharmacies!

A better approach just might be to develop a cocktail of antiviral drugs, just as we have had to do for HIV, & treat the symptoms, as a natural immunity develops, if it is going to.

Should be a lot cheaper, & a damn sight more effective.

Dear Hasbeen,

From the NY Times.

"Ivermectin
For decades, ivermectin has served as a potent drug to treat parasitic worms. Doctors use it against river blindness and other diseases, while veterinarians give dogs a different formulation to prevent heartworm. Studies on cells have suggested ivermectin might also kill viruses. But scientists have yet to find strong evidence in animal studies or human trials that it can treat viral diseases. As a result,ivermectin is not approved to use as an antiviral.

Last April, Australian researchers reported that the drug blocked coronaviruses in cell cultures. But they used a dosage that was so high it might have dangerous side effects in people. The F.D.A. immediately issued a warning against taking pet medications that contain ivermectin. “These animal drugs can cause serious harm in people,” the agency warned. On March 5, 2021, the F.D.A. issued another warning not to use ivermectin to treat or prevent Covid-19. The European Medicines Agency released a similar warning later that month.

Nevertheless, ivermectin gained widespread popularity as a supposed treatment for Covid-19. In the United States, the Senate held a committee hearing in December where a doctor extolled ivermectin as a “effectively a ‘miracle drug’ against Covid-19.” But those claims were not backed up by clear results from large, randomized clinical trials.

A number of small clinical trials have been carried out to test ivermectin against Covid-19. In July 2021, a team of researchers reviewed the studies conducted up until then. “We found no evidence to support the use of ivermectin for treating or preventing COVID-19 infection, but the evidence base is limited,” they concluded. One high-profile study that seemed to show ivermectin was highly effective was removed from a preprint website because of concerns about serious flaws in the research.

A number of large-scale randomized clinical trials are underway that may provide a clearer picture. In August, the National Institutes of Health began testing the drug on people 30 years old or older who test positive for Covid-19 within the previous ten days and have at least two symptoms for a week or less. Shortly before that study launched, another trial on 1500 patients found no benefit from ivermectin."

Go get a vaccine ya mug.

Here's Craig Kelly doing his block about the vaccines in an empty parliament.
- It's a 'Must Watch' - goes for 2mins.
http://twitter.com/wong_do_mein888/status/1432328247757336581

Someone shared a video with me of a guy accessing the following database.
http://apps.tga.gov.au/PROD/DAEN/daen-entry.aspx

DAEN is the Therapeutic Goods Administration's 'Database of Adverse Event Notifications' - for medicines.

If you go to the above page and type in 'Covid' in the 'Select Medicines' section, you get this:

COMIRNATY COVID-19 vaccine (active ingredients: BNT162b2 (mRNA))
COVID-19 Vaccine (TNS) (active ingredients: COVID-19 Vaccine (Type not specified))
COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca (active ingredients: ChAdOx1-S (Viral vector))
Spikevax COVID-19 vaccine (active ingredients: Elasomeran (mRNA))

Now I saw a video which showed a huge number of adverse reactions, but I haven't been able to access the data on the website to verify it.
You might have to change the 'From' date range to Jan 1 2021.

If anyone has any success accessing this data please share what you find.
The website doesn't seem to be working properly

NY Times, lefty hymn book.

Only a total dill would pay any attention to anything they print, except to take it as very far from the truth.

Still singing in tune I see SR.

Dear Hasbeen,

This is where you should have provided any contrary evidence. For instance an independent, randomly selected, peer reviewed study would be good.

This is a link to the Australian one discussed in the article.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0166354220302011

The Together trail of 1500 patients returned this result:

"The trial originally tested the results from a single Ivermectin dose in January this year, but was later changed to involve one daily dose for three days of 400 micrograms of the drug for every kilogram (about 2.2 pounds) of the patients’ weight, up to 90 kilograms.

Half the subjects received a placebo tablet. No clinical results were detected at either dosage, Mills said."

http://rethinkingclinicaltrials.org/news/august-6-2021-early-treatment-of-covid-19-with-repurposed-therapies-the-together-adaptive-platform-trial-edward-mills-phd-frcp/

Do you have a single reputable study to back up the crap you are presenting here?

Yes he does Steele! He has Craig Kelly, Pauline Hanson, Fat Clive and the medical expert Dangerous Doctor Donald to back him up. Why do you think Pine-O-Clean is on special at Woolies this week, ha ha does that not tell you something, its got conspiracy written all over it according to the Sons of Liberty, does the name Al Gore not ring a bell with you? BTW, what size light does DDD recommend for the up the clacker treatment. I tried one of those little torch jobs from the $2 shop, I now have a slight problem, can you recommend a good laxative? There is an up side, when I open my mouth I can see in the fridge without turning the light on, that's something of a cure.

There is a simplicity to this debate which is conveniently overlooked.

COVID can kill in many ways, but it’s favourite is the infestation of the lungs with tiny blood clots.
Blood clots are extremely painful. You get COVID, then your lungs will fill with blood clots.

Why is there even an argument about long term effects of vaccines?

Dan

"A doctor in rural Oklahoma said the number of people overdosing on the deworming medication ivermectin was so high that emergency rooms were filled to the brim.

The situation is so dire that people with gunshot wounds have to wait their turn to get treatment, Dr. Jason McElyea, an ER physician affiliated with hospitals in Sallisaw, told KFOR, an NBC affiliate in Oklahoma..."

www.businessinsider.com.au/oklahomas-emergency-rooms-are-clogged-with-people-overdosing-on-ivermectin-2021-9/amp

Whew.

Hi Steele,

After Dangerous Doctor Donald proclaimed disinfectant as a "miracle" cure for Covid, hundreds in the US were admitted to hospital with disinfectant poisoning. Its believed a 100 Trumpster died, how many in Australia? I noted at the time several Trumpster posters dropped off the Forum, like runner.