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The Forum > General Discussion > The Virus, Suppression or Elimination?

The Virus, Suppression or Elimination?

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Just when many thought Australia had the virus under control with a suppression strategy, "Victoria happened", a second wave worse than the first. On top of Victoria, there are grave concerns for New South Wales as well. With virtual elimination, the other six states and territories appear for the present to be on top of the virus, or are they? Can the six hold out with Victoria and NSW as they are.

Without a vaccine at hand, should there be an immediate change of strategy from suppression to elimination? Some of Australia's top epidemiologists and virologists are calling for us to pursue an explicit coronavirus elimination strategy now. The Morrison government is loath to pursue an elimination strategy with the economy in dire straights as it is. Melbourne University epidemiologist Professor Tony Blakely wants Australia to seize the window of opportunity afforded by a second lockdown and push to eliminate the virus, given six out of eight states and territories have seemingly achieved that goal already.

New Zealand famously achieved elimination of the virus using strict stage four restrictions, which Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern summarised as ‘go hard, go early’. Some cases have popped up in returning travellers, to be expected, but for two months there has been no community transmission in NZ.
Posted by Paul1405, Monday, 27 July 2020 6:18:31 AM
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Until stupidity is eliminated all other problems are merely suppressed !
Posted by individual, Monday, 27 July 2020 8:16:12 AM
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Definitely, Elimination!

Then extend quarantine time for overseas arrivals to 3 weeks. Also, regarding Australians who want to return just because they ran out of money - just give them money to remain overseas, it is much cheaper!
Posted by Yuyutsu, Monday, 27 July 2020 10:26:05 AM
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yep Victoria had the most draconian lockdowns in Australia. That worked well didn't it? Still far more are going to die and have lives destroyed through locking up the healthy in the long run if not already.
Posted by runner, Monday, 27 July 2020 10:41:33 AM
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btw Paul are you off to join your marching marxist mates on Tuesday for the latest round of spreading the virus?
Posted by runner, Monday, 27 July 2020 11:06:56 AM
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Dear Paul,

I think that the Victorian Premier is doing the right
thing. We have only to look at the US to see what's
happening when restrictions are not in place. New
Zealand is a success story - and we should keep doing
what Victoria is currently doing. Suppression - in
order to eliminate and stop the spread.

Fingers-crossed that it will work. And that a vaccine
shall be found before too long. Lifting restrictions
too early could have disastrous consequences.
Perseverance is essential.
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 27 July 2020 11:58:27 AM
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A VACCINE is our only hope.

The WuFlu virus is mutating and it is looking like it was an engineered strain, which probably means that it was intended by the Chinese as a biological weapon.

It won't disappear with any strategy unless we have - yes you guessed it - a VACCINE.
Posted by Mr Opinion, Monday, 27 July 2020 12:12:53 PM
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There never has, & never will be a successful vaccine for a mutating Corona viruses. We have never been able to make a truly effective vaccine for the flue.

Elimination is therefor impossible. Treatment is the only answer, & that is more likely to succeed.

If only Trump had not backed the Hydroxychloroquine treatment, along with zine & perhaps vitamin D, tens of thousands of American lives would have been saved. But no, the Democrats, & other lefties could not allow a TRUMP success, so torpedoed the best chance for most of them.

We are seeing just how disgusting those Democrats, & others with the anti Trump syndrome, really are when the death of thousands is nothing to them, compared to their hate.
Posted by Hasbeen, Monday, 27 July 2020 12:32:24 PM
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'The WuFlu virus is mutating and it is looking like it was an engineered strain, which probably means that it was intended by the Chinese as a biological weapon.'

you mean the wuhan lab funded by Fauci and others Mr O?
Posted by runner, Monday, 27 July 2020 12:37:55 PM
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Dear Hasbeen,

The corona-virus is mutating, but not anywhere as much as the flu (which seems to have been already eliminated for this winter). Also, the smaller the numbers, the less mutations occur. There is therefore every reasonable hope to beat it in Australia. This means of course that we need to remain locked out from the rest of the world, but it is a reasonable price to pay until a vaccine or some other remedy is found - and has some advantages too!
Posted by Yuyutsu, Monday, 27 July 2020 12:47:01 PM
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Can you talk about 'maximum suppression' ? Elimination is probably impossible until there are very few cases of the virus anywhere in the world; ideally - as in NZ - none at all. But NZ is a fairly small bubble.

On the other hand, 'let 'er rip' policies, like that Chief Half-Wit Trumpf's, has obviously been responsible for nearly 150,000 deaths - so far - instead of the 10,000 or so that might have occurred if the US had followed Morrison's lead and organised a national co-ordinating response, then a (relatively) prompt and strict lock-down.

Unfortunately, strict lockdowns depend on everybody doing the right thing: it takes only a handful, perhaps just one person with the virus, for it to spread again very quickly: 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256 etc. Gatherings and people living in close proximity can do that.

Yet we get morons like Runner (have you got a death-wish, an End of Days wish, Runner?) who clamor for no lock-downs, open it all up ? Well, in the US, you might get your wish soon - I'm sure that the spread of the virus has a complicated dynamic, but it certainly looks like it's out of control over there, just as you might wish. So we'll see by, say, November, what has been the effects of 'let 'er rip' policies. God's will?

Already the health systems of US small towns are being overwhelmed, with ethics committees having to choose who will get treatment and who will be sent home to die (wouldn't you love to be on one of those, Runner ?).

So the US is a hell of a long way from contemplating the dilemma between suppression and elimination. Even here, health authorities have raised the issue of system capacity in Victoria, with health professionals flying in from other states. And the US has 200 times the daily new-case-load of Australia. If i was a Yank, I'd be trying to get smuggled over the border onto a safer country, maybe like Mexico.

So how did NZ achieve maximum suppression ?

Joe
Posted by loudmouth2, Monday, 27 July 2020 12:56:22 PM
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Yuyutsu,

No, sorry, Scott Morrison is planning to open up the international border before Xmas.

As he told the Victorians "Schnell! Schnell! Neine doona! Neine doona! Offen die Rand!"

And look what happened. Good on ya Soot!
Posted by Mr Opinion, Monday, 27 July 2020 1:01:32 PM
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Here's an interesting take on the ,mishandling of the virus:

http://quillette.com/2020/07/23/why-have-so-many-american-conservatives-embraced-covid-19-pseudoscience/

Quite revealing !

Joe
Posted by loudmouth2, Monday, 27 July 2020 1:13:29 PM
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yeah we know your TDS Joe is causing you to be more and more illogical. Ok with all the blm's parties and protests Joe? Ok with democrat mayors sending covid into nursing homes Joe? Ok with China exporting this virus probably from a lab Joe? Ok with democrat mayors inviting people to celebrate Chinese new year Joe? Oh its all Trumps fault. You really have lost any sense of rationale Joe. Hatred does that to you. Any blame on Andrews in Victoria Joe? Happy with Fauci doing a 180 degree turn around on masks Joe? Yeah just believe the 'experts' Joe. Yeah I know Joe, its the evangelical Christians who hate life and the marxist who love life especially the black lives. Don't divert from your narrative Joe. It just might expose your hypocrisy. I mean I really hope my elderly parents die Joe, I mean you know Joe.
Posted by runner, Monday, 27 July 2020 1:52:03 PM
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Hi Runner,

Was that directed towards me by any chance ?

No, I don't hate Trumpf - his racketeer father and brothel-keeping grandfather maybe, but he's too much of a simpleton to hate. He would have been a great fair-weather President, like say, Calvin Coolidge, or Herbert Hoover expected to be. But life throws up unexpected challenges, even for a President. It goes with the job. And this time, he's not up to it.

Fauci posed possibilities, and you know it: if we don't do this, that might happen. He didn't say it would happen regardless. And he did advise early on to think about using masks. Five months later, your half-wit president proposes something like the same, especially when it's him in a hospital, where you can catch all sorts of things, it's full of sick people.

Isn't it great to have the knowledge of hindsight, about old people's homes and how dangerous they are ? God forbid, Runner, you might end up in one :). Gosh, that would be terrible. Never mind.

So what's the score now ?

Morrison (hard lock-down): a total of around 160 deaths.

Trumpf (moxydoxychloroquine, light up the arse, it's only another flu, let 'er rip): closing in on 150,000.

If we're comparing policies, we have to take into account that the US has about 14 times our population. But close to a thousand times the death-rate, a differential of about 65-70.

Yes, I'd say that Morrison's policies have been far more effective than your boy's. Yes, it's difficult to get people to comply with masking, distancing and travelling recommendations, so we'll probably get more outbreaks up to Christmas, even in well-run states like South Australia. But I shudder to think what the situations might be like by Christmas in Brasil, the UK and the US.

But I suppose they're all in your prayers, Runner. Only a few more months until the End of Days :)

Joe
Posted by loudmouth2, Monday, 27 July 2020 2:12:48 PM
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yeah I know Joe. You never have been interested where the virus originated from and why China and whoever exported it. As for the end days as you put it you might be right. I think a few things to be played out first but I am no expert.

Somehow I think the 150000 deaths in US is nothing compared to the consequences of a totally bankrupted economy but I suppose its easy to take cheap shots. One good thing could be if US was broke they could not funding the deaths of millions of unborn. Might be a good result. 150000 deaths though is pretty good compared with the 2 million predicted by the 'experts' at the start. Of course the annual flu deaths are right down and people killed by motor cycle accidents counted as covid deaths. But heh you know stats, stats and lies. Make them say whatever you like.
Posted by runner, Monday, 27 July 2020 2:32:26 PM
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Runner,

So what makes you think that two million deaths in the US isn't possible ? If the virus really gets out of control, under your dumb-arse hero, and in spite of Fauci's pleadings, that might come about. Maybe even by about November.

So this has all been a conspiracy ? By the Chinese, to deprive governments of funding against abortion ? So that those other countries can have healthy birth-rates and growing populations while China has a declining birth-rate and eventually a declining population? How does that devious cunning work ?

So how many deaths would be acceptable to you, to keep the economy more open ? What is a live worth ? And do you really think that, if the pandemic was uncontrolled, that the economy would just be ticking along regardless ? What, with half the work-force off sick and dying ? Kids infecting teachers, who are dying, so school systems start to collapse ? With the health system collapsing ? With the Head Simpleton off playing golf ?

We'll see, won't we ?

Joe
Posted by loudmouth2, Monday, 27 July 2020 2:48:23 PM
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hysterics does your credibility no good Joe. And you labelling me the crazy one. Hmm! I suspect life is far more valuable to me than a planned parenthood supporter. I do understand though that to drive a car might result in death or to swim in the ocean. All a matter of perspective not hysteria. I suspect strongly if the vulnerable were isolated and looked after (unlike the democrats did in New York) and healthy people went about their business that deaths would be lower than they are now. Lockdowns really don't do people's mental health much good.

What is a life worth? Enough for Christ to die for that person. the blm's protestors and mayors/premiers who supported these marxist think little of life. Strange how strong proponents of euthenasia have also suddenly found a conscience. Oh well its a strange world.
Posted by runner, Monday, 27 July 2020 3:23:23 PM
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we have had a flu vaccine for decades! That works well doesn't it. And now we in year we are going to have a workable vaccine. You guys line up first.
Posted by runner, Monday, 27 July 2020 4:30:36 PM
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runner, "we have had a flu vaccine for decades! That works well doesn't it" Yes it does work well, often people with the common cold mistakenly confuse it with influenza.

Members of fundo religious cults shun medical intervention, according to these devotees its all down to "gods will", and anything else is sinful. There was the instance of some religious Catholic woman in western Sydney over several days, running from church to church, turning up at funerals of people she didn't know, simply spreading the virus to others. Maybe she seen it as her religious duty to do so.
Posted by Paul1405, Tuesday, 28 July 2020 6:13:31 AM
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"Just when many thought Australia had the virus under control with a suppression strategy, "Victoria happened"" Rubbish, the suppression was working well until "bubonic Dan" happened.

While extolling comrade Jacinda, you forget that this show pony had a number of factors heavily on her side:
1 NZ has not eliminated the virus, as there are a number of infected people in quarantine after returning to NZ, and the hotels being used for quarantine are guarded by professionals not the rent a crowd numbskulls with 2 mins of training hired in Victoria.
2 NZ has a far smaller population of 1/5th of Aus which makes it exponentially easier to eradicate.
3 The virus arrived in NZ later giving NZ a head start.

What else is clear is that many Victorians have lost all patience and their willingness to self sacrifice is gone for the labor induced 2nd wave.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Tuesday, 28 July 2020 10:44:09 AM
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'here was the instance of some religious Catholic woman in western Sydney over several days, running from church to church, turning up at funerals of people she didn't know, simply spreading the virus to others. Maybe she seen it as her religious duty to do so.'

and religous people like you Paul who attends marxist tantrums in the name of blm's. Are you going today?
Posted by runner, Tuesday, 28 July 2020 10:46:17 AM
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Shadow Minister,

Daniel Andrews was being pressured by Scott Morrison to get out from under the doona, open up the schools, get everyone back into the workplace, and open the borders.

We can all recall Dan Tehan MP lampooning Andrews on TV for wanting to maintain restrictions to contain the spread of the WuFlu instead of doing what Scott Morrison was telling him to do.

Andrews buckled under pressure from Scott Morrison, did what Morrison wanted, and now look at the mess that's got him into.

It's obvious to me that Morrison is the real source of the problem in Victoria, not Andrews.
Posted by Mr Opinion, Tuesday, 28 July 2020 10:53:17 AM
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O come on Mr O

Morrison is also best mates with Donald so surely you can blame him. I mean Dan's handling of quarantine in hotels was beautiful. Making sure his unions were happy and that workers bonked the inmates in exchange for other favours. I will give you that Morrison was totally foolish to form an alliance with socialist like Andrews.

There is little evidence these lockdowns will do any good. You have been listening to the 'experts' change their mind every second day.

I actually listened to an African American woman doctor who has treated over 360 covid patients many of which were elderly. Not one died and all her staff have also been treated. None have contracted the virus. Surprise, surprise she prescribed hydroxychloroquine. Oh dear we would rather see many more deaths than swallow our pride and save life. NO its all a joke and not ending well as the panic porn and misinformation is pushed by Fauci, Gates and Governments. Conspiracy, conspiracy!
Posted by runner, Tuesday, 28 July 2020 11:12:07 AM
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Dear, Oh dear.

The quality of mercy is not strained ...
For some it's non-existant.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 28 July 2020 11:16:52 AM
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The virus is one issue.
Mandatory vaccinations will have side effects on 2.5% of the population.
That's 625,000 Australians per year suffering side effects.
Coronavirus mutates which means it's like the cold flu and you need a new vaccine every year, and sometimes they are hit and miss.

We've got a few hundred deaths now, were soon going to have hundreds of thousands of side effects per year soon.

Mandatory vacinnations is Bill Gates 'Final Solution' to the planets population problem.
He's quoted as calling it a 'Final Solution' and its well known the thing he cares about is reducing global population.
His father worked for Planned Parenthood.

http://youtu.be/0vjuayT7Ynw
Posted by Armchair Critic, Tuesday, 28 July 2020 2:29:28 PM
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Shadow, you seem to have a problem with the one you call Bubonic Dan, yet said nothing about The Hazard in NSW as he waved 2700 virus infected people of the Ruby Princess, or his total inability to manage Covid-19 at 'Newmarch House' as 19 elderly folk died from the virus. Of course if Dan was a dirty old Archbishop, and not a Labor Premier you would be singing his praises. There are enquiries in progress concerning these and other short comings related to the virus, and if politicians are found reasonable then they should pay the penalty.
Posted by Paul1405, Tuesday, 28 July 2020 3:14:02 PM
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AC,

Nobody ever suspects that the Swedes may be behind so many of the hoaxes and frauds, like this so-called virus. It's Chinese anyway. And spread around by the 5G network, run by Jews. Except that it's a hoax. And no worse than the flu. Moxypoxychlorioquinine and disinfectant easily fix it. And you can't get it twice. And not at all if you're young. Bloody hoax pamdemics. Spread by anarchists.

And behind them all - who would have guessed ? - are the Swedes. Everybody thinks that they're just innocently going about making cuckoo clocks and chocolates, but really they're using all sorts of technology to collect sensitive data on all of us. They're using the Chinese and the Jews, and the Muslims too. And those bloody left-handers too. And gingers. Swedish bastards.

Thankfully, there are people like you who are aware of some of these schemes going on under everybody's noses. Keep it up. See you one day in the secret cave: we'll have to work out a secret signal.

Joe
Posted by loudmouth2, Tuesday, 28 July 2020 3:26:25 PM
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'See you one day in the secret cave: we'll have to work out a secret signal.'

yep just what Fauci, Gates and others want Joe. You are right. The people in the slums can isolate in their bedsitters while the elite isolate on acres and play golf. You just be a good boy and the virus won't get you Joe.
Posted by runner, Tuesday, 28 July 2020 3:31:40 PM
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I just saw on ABC news that Scott Morrison is trying to get a court order to make WA open its borders.

I suppose he's thinking "I can do it to Victoria so why not do it to WA?"

Interesting that these are two Labor states he is interfering with. I wonder if political gains are more important to Morrison than stopping the spread of the WuFlu.
Posted by Mr Opinion, Tuesday, 28 July 2020 3:46:24 PM
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LM,

"Moxypoxychlorioquinine and disinfectant easily fix it."

http://www.newsweek.com/key-defeating-covid-19-already-exists-we-need-start-using-it-opinion-1519535

http://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/matt-margolis/2020/07/26/hydroxychloroquine-is-the-key-to-defeating-covid-19-says-yale-epidemiologist-n703802

Best to ignore these, LM, it'll ruin your dinner.
Posted by mhaze, Tuesday, 28 July 2020 5:17:56 PM
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yeah Mhaze sounds like several democrat mayors have been taking hydroxychloroquine. Better though to let others die than let the truth out. Amazing how an over the counter drug in many countries and in use for about 70 years is so dangerous.
Posted by runner, Tuesday, 28 July 2020 5:39:07 PM
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Runner,

Wow, I was joking, i didn't know there would be people stupid enough to take it seriously. Takes all types :)

I don't know of many people who can ' ..... isolate on acres and play golf.' Unless, of course, they own their own golf courses. And we both know that bloke :)

Still, Runner & Mhaze, some of us love a good conspiracy theory. Does this one include microchip implants while we sleep ? Or nanochips in Chinese food ?

Hmmm, how to link up the Chinese, the Jews, the Muslims, immigrants, left-handers, gingers, Swedes and sundry other out-groups, all in one conspiracy ? Keep them coming :)

Ah, so Fauci is now also part of all manner of conspiracies ? Well, he's Eyetalian, isn't he ?

Joe
Posted by loudmouth2, Tuesday, 28 July 2020 6:07:14 PM
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'Does this one include microchip implants while we sleep ? Or nanochips in Chinese food ?'

your telling your story Joe. It keeps changing but heh you are in good company with the 'experts' Talking of Chinese food Joe, has your friend Nancy invited any more to Chinese parties of late. Or have you forgotten that anyone saying not to going these lovefests are racist.

As for a chip I suspect that will come when the world's economies collapse. When that happens I am not sure but will be sped up by locking down the worlds industries. Don't even really need to be a mathematician to see how people have been so dumbed down by fear.
Posted by runner, Tuesday, 28 July 2020 6:19:00 PM
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Hi Joe, "nanochips in Chinese food" I always wondered why, when I order the 'Family Pack' from the Golden Dragon along with the sweet n' sour pork, comes a free bag of prawn chips! Mr Fong is not Mr Fong the friendly fella down at the local Chinese, he's Fong the secret agent for the CCP, Bill Gates and the Democrat party of America! This secret agent has been feeding me radio active prawn chips for years to get inside my brain! Without success I might add.

Warning; I have long suspected the pepperoni at Pizza Hut was doing the same thing! That's why I stick to the ham and pineapple. AND never order the Cheesy crust! There is just to much evidence, but the media wont print it when I call them about it, they hang up.

BTW, just asking, do you by chance ever drink choc flavoured milk from the supermarket? If so, stop it immediately! I have the evidence.
Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 29 July 2020 7:26:15 AM
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'Warning; I have long suspected the pepperoni at Pizza Hut was doing the same thing! That's why I stick to the ham and pineapple. AND never order the Cheesy crust! There is just to much evidence, but the media wont print it when I call them about it, they hang up.'

good to hear you were not one of the blm's protestors spreading the virus this time Paul or did you get a fine. Actually surprised you like eating pizza Paul. Surely that creates global warming. Certainly everything about your religion indicates that.
Posted by runner, Wednesday, 29 July 2020 10:14:28 AM
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runner, what do you have to say about the Christian fruitcake who travelled to Victoria, and then lied on her form when she returned to Queensland. This person working at a Christian school has tested positive to Covid-19. Now there is a mad scramble to find her contacts, the school has been closed for cleaning etc. So don't lecture me about BLM protesters in Sydney, who incidentally complied with gov regs yesterday, gathering in groups of no more than 20 and practising social distancing with face masks in place. The coppers still seen fit to arrest 6 of them, what for?
Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 29 July 2020 12:27:01 PM
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'runner, what do you have to say about the Christian fruitcake who travelled to Victoria, and then lied on her form when she returned to Queensland'

I would say Paul, be sure your sin will find you out.
Posted by runner, Wednesday, 29 July 2020 2:18:45 PM
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So runner, I take it you wont be joining a bus load of Jesus Freaks from Victoria making the trip to Queensland any time soon. Do you think this could be a Christian conspiracy to spread the virus? First it was that Catholic woman in Sydney, now this one in Queensland. Could it be deliberate?
Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 29 July 2020 8:51:52 PM
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'So runner, I take it you wont be joining a bus load of Jesus Freaks from Victoria making the trip to Queensland any time soon. '

if your socialist mate Dan had not have made a complete stuff up Paul travelling from Victoria would present no risk. But of course the State with the greatest lockdown and a corrupt socialist Government gets the wrong runs on the board. But anything to divert attention from facts Paul is about all you socialist have left besides egg all over your face.
Posted by runner, Wednesday, 29 July 2020 10:18:34 PM
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runner,

You don't by chance have 'JESUS LOVES' tattoos all over your body do you?
Posted by Mr Opinion, Wednesday, 29 July 2020 10:25:58 PM
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runner, you did start this by having a couple of shots at me over the BLM protests. "Paul who attends marxist tantrums in the name of blm's. Are you going today?" BTW if you are going to refer to us Marxists its with a capital M, derived from Karl Marx's name thus a capital M.

So not being one to miss an opportunity, after the antics of that mad women in Sydney, and then the criminal at the Christian school in Brisbane, gee not too far from me.

Why can't you be like our local C of E minister, a lovely lady, a heart of gold. She rang the wife on Monday, as "T" had "registered" for church service last Sunday, the first proper service for months, its all been on line, God's gone high tech. It was raining heavy Sunday morning, the wife didn't go, the Minister rang Monday to see if she was all right. How nice is that, and her compassion for people is very much reflected in the "out reach" programs run through the Church. She doesn't even try to rope me in to attend services, even though by talking we agree on many subjects. Her husband is a nice regular guy as well.

BBTW, I'm in with the Bishop, he likes my Marxist 'sausage rolls' When he came out for a Sunday get together, before the virus arrived, at the after service breakky I seen him hoeing into my plate of SR's. What does that tell you? Besides that I make the worlds best sausage rolls. The Bishop partakes of the food of the Marxists! Beats Capitalists Vegemite sangers any day.

Love, peace and brotherhood to you runner.
Posted by Paul1405, Thursday, 30 July 2020 5:27:23 AM
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I wouldn't mind trying out a couple of those sausage rolls Paul1405,
You're making me hungry.

Enemies Of The State

Meanwhile 2 young women from Brisbane were just caught GOING TO MELBOURNE to steal high-end handbags, were at a party, then returned to Sydney where they flew back to Brisbane, lied on their border crossing to avoid quarantine and then were in the public sick for 8 days before being tested.

$4000 fine.

You've all really got to see this one for yourselves.
http://youtu.be/spfVT3kp9y4
Posted by Armchair Critic, Thursday, 30 July 2020 7:38:05 AM
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Hi AC, the law allows for up to 6 months in the slammer, and charges should have been laid, tested in court. The $4k fine is a misdemeanour offence, the law has to meet public expectations. As a civil libertarian I concede that laws and penalties are most necessary.

Its chicken and veg soup day, sausage rolls I'll do on the weekend, feed the grandkids. Not hard to make, mix up the ingredients in a bowl, I use veal mince mixed with sausage mince 50/50 etc etc etc then roll them in puff pastry, a quick bake, all is done, much nicer than the shop ones
Posted by Paul1405, Thursday, 30 July 2020 8:18:28 AM
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Hi Paul just shows up the idiotic nature of race/identity politics. Wasn't to long ago we were preached at to 'believe all women' and I suspect especially coloured women.
Posted by runner, Thursday, 30 July 2020 11:13:34 AM
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Here's a point of view pertinent to this topic in relation to NZ. https://hectordrummond.com/2020/06/05/jeremy-harris-please-just-stop/ I like this because it broaches the question of infection fatality rate (IFR) which is forgotten in setting the elimination policy being pursued.

With all the facts now available, it must be obvious that herd-immunity without a vaccine will be accompanied by around 1 fatality per 1000 population, which is far, far from what was first thought.

Both Covid and economic destruction are life-shortening. We have to look at this, rather than a single focus on deaths, to see beyond the hysteria and fear driving us towards an elimination policy. This means economists must be a part of setting public health policy, not just doctors adhering to the Hippocratic Oath.
Posted by Luciferase, Thursday, 30 July 2020 3:31:43 PM
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Luciferase

you are a voice of rationale in a world of panic porn. Unfortunately the lock up the healthy looks like causing more deaths than our current panic.

It seems amazing how little accountability China has received for this pandemic or plandemic!
Posted by runner, Thursday, 30 July 2020 4:11:36 PM
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Public opinion has seen the QLD police lay charges against the three women involved in the boarder fraud, they now face up to 5 years jail.

200,000 on line have told Fat Clive Palmer to stick his High Court challenge to the WA boarder closure. Why has Morrison backed Palmer, is he paying for past favours?
Posted by Paul1405, Thursday, 30 July 2020 11:01:37 PM
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voice of reason again until removed by marxist

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ts7maQ0S2QI&feature=share&fbclid=IwAR2aSu5FjApjmrj6TQn5BHckJMcwvmoYlR6I4l859S0nXPT2xmEc-67EYO0
Posted by runner, Friday, 31 July 2020 10:21:10 AM
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As one in the high risk group my thinking on the overall picture on coronavirus is probably a little coloured by personal perspective.

Then again isolation for me on my 20 acres, with plenty of both useful & recreational things to do, & a 25 kilometer nice country drive to get to the nearest bread bakery was not all that onerous either. I can only imagine how horrible it would be to be cooped up in a small flat in an inner city high rise.

Would it be any better if I was still running a tourist boat operation on the reef, chucking 40 or so out of work, & seeing the fixed costs slowly destroy any prospect of salvaging the operation....ever.

Morrison obviously has a wider view of what's happening & can perhaps see real evidence that more lives are being destroyed by the lockdown than are at risk of being destroyed by the virus itself.

Anyone who can't see that there are 2 sides to this question are either extremely selfish, or are simply political animals, trying to spin some political capital out of the problem.
Posted by Hasbeen, Friday, 31 July 2020 11:00:22 AM
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Hassy, a government mandated lockdown or not, if the pandemic was allowed to run rampant then people would simply impose their own lockdown through fear. The US is a typical example, with some states either imposing minimal restrictions, with others going harder on control the economic result is about the same. The US has seen a 9.5% drop in GDP and 155,000 deaths. In Britain with a shambolic response from Bug Ridden Boris the economic impact has been horrendous. New Zealand's hard lockdown and elimination has thus far resulted in an economic impact no worse that the US, but with only a few deaths.
Posted by Paul1405, Saturday, 1 August 2020 8:10:17 AM
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Yes Paul, spoken as a man who is not in danger of being unemployed or sent broke by any lockdown.

New Zealand is a total red herring Paul. It does not equate to even a fair sized city in the US widely scattered, & could easily control it's boarders.

Yes business as usual is a risk, particularly when some will not practice even simple distancing techniques. Florida is paying the price of being almost totally dependent on tourism, & having to keep it's boarders open for instance. North Queensland would be in an equally pad position if not for coal mining.

If we could somehow control the idiots like the handbag pinching bunch of girls from Brisbane, & some ethnics in Victoria, aided by a dumb premier, we could open up earlier, to the advantage of all
Posted by Hasbeen, Saturday, 1 August 2020 12:28:49 PM
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It looks increasingly likely that the proposition of this thread may well be a misnomer - in that there may well be no stopping this virus at all.
We'll all just have to live with it always lurking in the background, and just flaring up at different times here and there around the world - just like the various Influenza viruses.

Notice we have a different flu vacc every year, and every year many people still contract the flu, and many people still die from it.
There is no perfect vacc because the blessed thing keeps mutating.
This Corona is very likely to follow this same pattern.

Have you noted how the authorities keep checking the 'strain' of the virus found in their testing - to see if it was contracted in Victoria or not?
Also, some people being found positive for a second time, after an intermediary negative result?
Lurking, dormant, while awaiting more amenable physical conditions in the host - and then breaking-out once more?

How is it that all the flu vaccinating around the world has not managed to kill the flu virus(es) once and for all?
And it is my understanding that Covid is a close cousin.

So, we have to face it, all the vaccines they are working on furiously all around the world may only ever be of limited, periodic value.

How many will die each and every year, with no permanent immunity possible?

Meanwhile, bacteria also keep mutating, and the world is running out of effective antibiotics to combat the new multi-resistant strains.

Nature in recoil, and humankind needing a new 'evolution' ('Mutation') to survive - Homo Covidensus Obliticus?

What may the ultimate 'survivors' look like, I wonder?

Could it be a CCP conspiracy?
Posted by Saltpetre, Sunday, 2 August 2020 12:41:29 AM
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Hassy, flip flopping as usual, I make the point, the notion that ignoring the virus, and its business as usual is unrealistic. The big difference between New Zealand and the United States is NZ has strong national leadership in Ardern and her government, without the baggage of inept state authorities. The US on the other hand is led by a total FW and has the misfortune of having Trump clones as Governors in states like Florida and Texas. What a combination for a disaster!

Salty, with influenza its not necessarily a mutation each year, but rather which of the existing strains will be the most prevalent. The vaccination rate in Australia is very high by world standards. According to government, they expect 16.5 million doses to be made available to Australians this year, which includes and additional 3 million on last year. The priority is given to the most vulnerable groups in the community, the elderly, children etc. I suspect that the level of vaccination in most of the third world is very low.
Posted by Paul1405, Sunday, 2 August 2020 8:29:55 AM
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Dear Saltpetre,

Unlike the flu, this virus has an anti-mutation mechanism.
It still mutates, enough to identify strains, but not majorly enough to prevent immunisation. Also, the numbers are still less than flu numbers - the less they are, the less mutations occur. The experts believe that "recurrences" are due to false negatives with imperfect tests.

As for the CCP, it could as well have been a biological weapon in development, but it was accidentally released before it was deadly enough and before they had a vaccine ready for their own population.

If indeed it was deliberately released, then we have to thank God for making our enemies so clumsy! We need to trust Him and thank Him in any case!
Posted by Yuyutsu, Sunday, 2 August 2020 8:47:22 AM
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A far right mob combined with conspiracy theorists and general fruitcakes rioted in Berlin against restrictions to combat the virus. Yuyutsu, these fanatics are far more dangerous to world health than any unsubstantiated claims that China might have, some how, manufactured the virus in a laboratory.
Posted by Paul1405, Sunday, 2 August 2020 12:49:47 PM
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Paul1405,

The reason a claim that the WuFlu was engineered in China (probably as a biological weapon) has not been substantiated is because China will never permit a thorough investigation into its origin.

The scuttlebutt I have is that it was more than likely engineered and because of this suspicion a lot of countries will begin to break off relations with China.

Except of course Russia with its Hitler-like leader.
Posted by Mr Opinion, Sunday, 2 August 2020 1:23:42 PM
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Dear Paul,

«Yuyutsu, these fanatics are far more dangerous to world health than any unsubstantiated claims that China might have, some how, manufactured the virus in a laboratory.»

What has the one to do with the other?

COVID-19 is a real danger, but the CCP no less.

Long before this virus, I recommended over these pages that we in Australia must develop our own germs/viruses to defend ourselves from a Chinese invasion - I hope we are and I hope that what we are secretly cooking is far more virulent than COVID-19! I said over and over that nuclear-weapons are an insufficient deterrence and that we would be foolish to rely on America for our protection. We would of course guard our biological weapons very carefully and only ever use them as the very last resort, but it will make China think thrice before attacking our shores.

It would be extremely naive to believe that China, with all its might, did not develop similar capabilities, though I find it unlikely that COVID-19 was released intentionally at such an early stage of this war. It could quite possibly been an unrelated natural occurrence or it could have been an accidental escape, we probably will never know, nor do we need to because whichever the case, we should just be prepared!
Posted by Yuyutsu, Sunday, 2 August 2020 2:04:25 PM
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Yuyutsu: Developing a biological weapon like that is totally f#cking mad!!

Unless it was specific to a set of particular genes that Chinese people had and not us you could wipe out the whole world.

But even if is was just specific to Chinese people (which by the way- as far as I know we don't have any technology like this) you would kill a hell of a lot of people of Chinese descent that aren't of Chinese Nationality.

It would also be an exceptionally useless weapon for a winning attack and not very useful as a nuclear defensive deterrence.
Attacking weapons of total mass destruction only work if you can trigger them before the other side has time to react. Viruses take days to weeks to kill people, in which time a nuclear armed country could just nuke the initiator after the first biological attack.
On the other hand, as a defensive deterrent it doesn't work very well either. Because a country can launch a nuclear attack and immediately prepare for a retaliatory response from a biological weapon. You can mitigate the effects of a biological counter attack a hell of a lot easier than a tit-for-tat nuclear response. The best deterrence for a nuclear attack in a nuclear response. But this leads to the MAD doctrine (mutual assured destruction) and it only takes a single slight slip up to set it off.

So all up, it is best not to even think about such a crazy scheme- seek peace not war.
Posted by thinkabit, Sunday, 2 August 2020 2:39:10 PM
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Irrespective of economic hardship or outcomes, there is currently only one proven way to control the spread of this virus - and that is to minimize community transmission by use of masks, PPE, scrupulous sterilization and inter-personal distancing and lock-down.

Everyone will just have to 'suck it up', shut the hell up, and get with the blooming program.

Business as usual, hoping for the best, and counting on the possibility of a safe and 'effective' vaccine, is reminiscent of 'cargo cultures'.

And, irrespective of our governments going to incredible lengths to ensure no-one is 'left behind', no-one starves or gets kicked-out of their home - with even the 'homeless' put-up in free hotel accommodation and Aussies coming home put up in hotel isolation 'at taxpayer expense' - still, unbelievably, there continue to be those selfish, irresponsible, maniacs who flout the law, flout common sense, flout the majority who are 'doing the right thing', and these morons merely get a fine and a rap over the knuckles?
I would lock them up and throw away the key - or maybe even charge them with murder if anyone dies after contracting the virus from them.

Just how selfish can some people really be?
Should we even consider them 'human'?
Idiots.

At least some sanity, with recent returning Aussies going into isolation at their own expense - but then still remaining a threat because they need some air or some exercise outside or blah, blah, blah. And, refusing a test?
Who are these people? Ratbags.

Lock-down, shut the hell up, and consider just how lucky you are to live in a society that really cares.

Anyone not willing to comply should just take a blooming hike!
Posted by Saltpetre, Sunday, 2 August 2020 2:49:49 PM
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Yuyutsu, I am floored by your heartless comments. "I recommended over these pages that we in Australia must develop our own germs/viruses to defend ourselves from a Chinese invasion"

You would kill billions without as must a beg your pardon. I expect no less from several of the off the planet posters on here, but you! GET THIS THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULL. Regardless of what you or I think of the CCP, their autocratic system of government, the authority in China who ever they are. The people of China are no different to you and me, ordinary folk going about their daily lives. For you to suggest that billions of innocent people should be wiped off the face of the planet makes you one hell of a sick dude!

"We would of course guard our biological weapons very carefully and only ever use them as the very last resort" You sound like the murderous Americans and their atomic bomb, after killing hundreds of thousands in Hiroshima and Nagasaki they went on to claim it was only a deterrent.
Posted by Paul1405, Sunday, 2 August 2020 5:26:38 PM
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Dear Paul,

«You would kill billions without as must a beg your pardon.»

On the contrary: deterrence is about not having to kill anyone, being so strong that nothing will happen.
The alternative would be to try [unsuccessfully] to fight the Chinese invaders with kitchen knives in our bedroom as they come to round us up into concentration camps.

The idea is to use such weapons only if/when Australia is nuked or invaded. Not even "use" them then, because they will be automatically triggered by such an event. Suppose satellite information reveals that Australia was nuked or invaded by China AND no responsible persons in Australia stop the process (because they are all dead), then the germs/viruses will be released over China from Australian submarines, so in effect, the Chinese would bring it on themselves, not us!

To the extent feasible, we would also store vaccines in Australian embassies or other hiding places, to try to save our allies.

«The people of China are no different to you and me»

I agree, I have Chinese friends myself, the people of China are not a problem - only the regime that oppresses them and threatens the rest of the world.

The situation today shows every parallel between the CCP under Xi and the 1930's Nazi party under Hitler. The so-far-theoretical question, "what would you do if you knew about Hitler's plan to slaughter the Jews?" can no longer be shrugged, we are now responsible to answer it and prove that we mean it!

I don't know about you personally, but in the most unlikely event that this weapon is actually deployed, most of those billions would thank us, because they rather be dead than to fall in the cruel hands of the CCP.

Another thought: with this weapon ready, the Americans (not that I like them), will be forced to save us earlier with their nukes and aircraft-carriers, only for fear for their own lives. No matter what they now claim, there's no chance they will keep their promises and offer us any significant help otherwise when push comes to shove.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Monday, 3 August 2020 12:06:10 AM
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Dear Thinkabit,

The problem with nukes, is that Australia will never have enough of them and enough launching platforms to stop China and the CCP.

Most homes in Hiroshima and Nagasaki were made of paper. With current building standards, a Hiroshima-style bomb would only kill 10,000's and a hydrogen bomb perhaps one million, provided it is not intercepted. To prevent interception by China's anti-ballistic missiles, we would need to launch perhaps 100 of them at once just to get one through. That would finish Australia without making a big dent in the CCP.

«Unless it was specific... you could wipe out the whole world.»

Except those who have the vaccine ready. Preparing a vaccine/treatment must be part and parcel of the program.

«you would kill a hell of a lot of people of Chinese descent that aren't of Chinese Nationality.»

Again, the vaccine should save them. I have nothing against Chinese people as such.

«It would also be an exceptionally useless weapon for a winning attack and not very useful as a nuclear defensive deterrence.»

Obviously useless as an attack-weapon, but why would it not be useful as a second-strike deterrence capability?

«Viruses take days to weeks to kill people, in which time a nuclear armed country could just nuke the initiator after the first biological attack.»

I was speaking of such a time when there is nobody left to nuke, when we all would already be dead, or as good as dead.

«seek peace not war.»

There are times when peace is possible, but not when faced with a Hitler. Waiting would only make them stronger.
Genocide against the Uighurs is already underway.
Do we need to wait for the proof until we see the people of Hong Kong treated similarly?
Or for a Taiwan invasion in order to believe that the same will happen to Australia if we do nothing?

We must take care of ourselves because, unfortunately, America is only good with talking.
Should we be nuked out of existence, the Americans will... condemn China in the United-Nations and ban the importation of Chinese good-luck dolls.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Monday, 3 August 2020 12:47:07 AM
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What's the point of lockdown when this is just going to keep coming in rolling waves? Look at Sweden, with no lockdowns or people getting fined for going fishing or playing golf:
http://ourworldindata.org/grapher/daily-covid-deaths-per-million-7-day-average?country=ITA~KOR~ESP~SWE~GBR~USA~MEX~BRA~BEL

The aim should not be elimination but management. There are ways to fight Covid entry into nursing homes where it's wreaking the most damage in Melbourne, as it did initially in Sweden. Otherwise the virus should be allowed to pass through the population with voluntary distancing and hygiene practices, obligatory mask-wearing, and assisted quarantining of the vulnerable on its way to becoming a just another pathogen, albeit a bit nasty, that will affect only a part of the population at a time, a la the 'flu.

National health system capacity is not currently being overly taxed, nor looks like it's going to be, but it makes sense to build further capacity to meet expectations, as was done in Sweden.

We must keep an economy going as what is currently happening will be more life-shortening than Covid in the long run. Lockdown and state isolation will ultimately have the same result, with Western Australians and Tasmanians living in a fool's paradise, for now.
We're living in fear of death but not of lives shortened.
Here's a couple of articles on this aspect while we become more hysterical about the here and now against a relentless enemy that will take the same pound of flesh however we play it (oh, but that's right, the vaccine is imminent!):

http://journal.sketchingscience.org/users/333926/articles/460021-living-with-covid-19-balancing-costs-against-benefits-in-the-face-of-the-virus

http://www.abc.net.au/radio/melbourne/programs/drive/the-cost-of-saving-lives-coronavirus-debate/12217614

We can run but we can't hide. Sheeting back outbreaks to this event or that will be played out over and over, and we'll kid ourselves that we could have stopped the thing if only this thing or that was done. No amount of self-delusion, national debt, isolation, lockdown or economic wreckage of young lives will change this.
Posted by Luciferase, Monday, 3 August 2020 11:30:39 PM
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Your plan is completely harebrained!! So much so that I don't know why I'm even bothering to comment on it, but here goes:

1) It is logistically practically impossible. How do you think a medium sized power/economy country like Australia could vaccinate everyone in the world but the Chinese? To give prospective here, the WHO has been trying eliminate polio from the world by a vaccination program that has been running for decades with the cooperation of most countries and yet they still haven't completely eliminated it.

2) How do you get the rest of the world to approve of your plan? Do you really think the other countries of the world are going to let you create this virus? There exist international treaties/conventions, such as this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_Weapons_Convention, that most of the world have signed and ratified (including us) that prohibit biological weapons and delivery systems.

3) Since it would be blatantly obvious to China that you are implementing a plan that directly threatens them: How do you stop China taking military action against us before you've fully developed your virus and created/deployed a vaccine?

4) As I've already said. Biological weapons aren't a very good deterrent against a nuclear armed country that has time to develop counter measures. For example, once it become obvious to China that you plan to threaten all of its citizens, they can implement mandatory public safety strategies against your virus. Eg: They could mandate that people prepare their homes so that they can be positively pressured with clear air form HEPA (or better) air filters and also require that their population always has a month or so of food/water in their homes. Viruses in general aren't active for very long outside of a host, so all they have to do is lockdown and isolate themselves for a few days/weeks so that the effectiveness of you counter attack greatly diminishes. Also, it is challenging to deliver a virus across a large area very quickly. You need something like a low flying relatively slow plane spraying it everywhere but such planes can be shot down.
Posted by thinkabit, Tuesday, 4 August 2020 9:06:39 AM
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So although virus can potentially kill billions they aren't much good as a one-off attack against a country that is prepared and anticipates an attack.
However, viruses are ideal for stealthy asymmetric attacks against unprepared and unsuspecting targets. Such as a small extremist group of religious fanatics who wish to attack densely populated areas out-of-the-blue: it only takes a few crazy followers to discretely infect mass crowd gatherings across the country in a simultaneous coordinated attack. Creating such a virus as you desire would be a honey-pot for such lunatics.
Now comparing viruses to a modern nuclear counter attack on the other hand. Modern nuclear weapons can be delivered at hyper-sonic speed (the just recently developed hyper sonic missiles which are extremely difficult to defend against) and it can kill everyone within 10's of kilometers instantly. They also destroy infrastructure. There is next to nothing you can do to protect yourself once it has been launched (unless you already have a very expensive to build underground bunker you can escape to).

So as I said before, the best defensive deterrent against a nuclear strike is a nuclear response. But that leads to an arms war that is balanced on a knife edge. It is best to use diplomacy and world-wide anti-weapons conventions instead: seek peace not war.
Posted by thinkabit, Tuesday, 4 August 2020 9:07:25 AM
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Given the Victorian situation and the emulation of headless chooks by 'experts' and politicians, neither suppression nor elimination are on the cards.

And, while total incompetence reigns, nobody is asking what China is up to - despite the fact that it is China who imposed the virus on the West, with only a slight set back to their own population, about whom they don't care much anyway. China is off the agenda for discussion.

In 2019, virologist and co-founder of the HIV virus as well as Nobel Prize winner, Luc Montagnier, claimed that the Chinese virus was "manufactured in a laboratory in China's Wuhan". Why hasn't his finding been discussed more! Friends of China, the WHO, have denied it. The Chinese Communist Party has denied it - as if they would admit to using chemical weapons - and the media, except for the BBC, chose not to discuss it.

Whatever the truth or otherwise of Montagnier's claim, given China's intention to replace the US as world leader, and the CCP's belligerence and bullying, serious Western leaders with a modicum of courage and ability would have discussed the possibility that the virus was part of China's war against the West.

The phrase 'conspiracy theory' has the effect of striking most people dumb. But people do conspire, it's not all 'theory', and China has form. But, our attention has been taken off China, the source of the virus, and the only country which means harm to the West.
Posted by ttbn, Tuesday, 4 August 2020 9:38:38 AM
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As Professor James Allan has written on the virus, "the democratic world’s political class screwed up big time." " …. in a decade this will be looked back on as one of the most colossal public policy fiascos of the century." An "East-German" style of lock down has been used:

not trusting average citizens but turning the police into an arm of the nanny state;

locking huge chunks of the productive economy;

paying all sorts of people to do nothing at all while having no plausible politically palatable route out of that situation, and:

doing it all to become the biggest government spenders of all time, saddling, the next generation with untold debts and making Gough Whitlam green with jealousy.

And yet, here we are, a second wave steaming ahead in Victoria despite restrictions, and pathetic premieres in the other states being bullied by medical 'experts' in safe, protected jobs, to flip back into panic mode.

And, of course, there is the "Pravda-like" media, which has never had so much fun spreading fear and panic through a tired, worn out public.

And those responsible (apart from the Chinese Communist Party) - politicians and public servants - carry on with the same pay and conditions, and to hell with the people they have put out of business, bankrupted, made unemployed and generally ruined for ever.
Posted by ttbn, Tuesday, 4 August 2020 10:15:15 AM
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shut downs have proved the biggest failure in a century. Governments /policy makers rarely admit their failures. Western Governments have not the guts to properly investigate China for releases this virus. Meanwhile smirking Fauci's and Gates are seen as the messiah's. The great delusion!
Posted by runner, Tuesday, 4 August 2020 10:21:57 AM
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A few facts:

. There are only 46 serious cases of China virus.

. Infection rate for China virus is 0.26%, and in a bad ‘flu year it is 0.2%.

. There have been only 208 China virus deaths the year, but 1200 road deaths.

. 99% of China virus sufferers recover.

No facts on just how many billions of dollars politicians and fat cats have cost us, nor how many lives have been ruined by them, nor how long Australia will be in debt because of them.
Posted by ttbn, Tuesday, 4 August 2020 10:46:26 AM
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Ttbn,

Interesting take: so you're suggesting that governments should let it all rip, that it's just too expensive to try to contain this virus ? Government action has saved probably only a few lives while it has shut down the economy so disastrously ?

But imagine that governments here, like the circus in the US, didn't bother taking any precautions. Let's suppose that the virus started here with only one person infected on, say, 1st February, and from then on each person infected with the virus infected only one other person in a week, and so on:

End of Week 2: 2

Week 3: 4

Week 4: 8

Week 5: 16. (March 1)

No big deal so far, ay ?

Week 6: 32

Week 7: 64

Week 8: 128

Week 9: 256

Week 10 (April) 512

Week 11: 1024

Week 12: 2048

Week 13: 4096 (Anzac Day)

Week 14: 8192

That's April over.

Week 15: 16,384

Week 16: 32,768

Week 17: more than 65,000 (I'm too lazy to do the maths)

Week 18: 130,000

And that's May over.

Week 19: 260,000

Week 20: More than 500,000

Week 21: One million

Week 22: Two Million

Well, that's June sorted out. So far, so good ?

Week 23: Four million

Week 24: Eight million

Week 25: Sixteen million.

Week 26: Twenty five million Australians - we don't have 32 million to spare.

And July's not yet over.

So doing nothing, as your Dystopian agenda would have demanded, would have hit pretty much all of us by now. Maybe a million might have died by now.

So Morrison saved around 999,800 lives ?

And quite possibly, there would have come a point (as we'll see in a month or so in the US) when the economy has stopped working, with so many people not turning up for work through illness and/or death, by the health system being overwhelmed and health professional numbers declining through death and illness while they have been risking their lives in trying to save those of others.

But you'll be allright in your well-stocked bunker.

Joe
Posted by loudmouth2, Tuesday, 4 August 2020 11:54:29 AM
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'But imagine that governments here, like the circus in the US, '

yes just imagine that Trump had of caved to who and others calling him racist for stopping flights from where the virus come. Could of been much more tragic although Cuomo was sending covid into nursing homes was bright was it. Just imagine the many doctors on the ground listened to rather than the 'experts'. We would be in a much better place.
Posted by runner, Tuesday, 4 August 2020 12:24:48 PM
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Oh, what a tangled web they weave,
Those who practice to deceive.

So many misdirected barbs, couched agendas, denial, denial.

Certainly the original lock-downs were relaxed too soon. No question.

But, look you gentlemen to those fuzzballs and strumpets who chose (and continue to choose) to ignore lockdown, ignore warnings, ignore responsibility for their own actions and their responsibility to the rest of the populace.

For shame, the arrogant, the easily-miss-led, and the counter-culture organisers of rallies/rants/lie-fests of vested-interests and sublimation of personal responsibility and accountability to all 'the Others' - the 'Racists' hiding behind every bush and under every toadstool.

Et tu Brute? Daggers to the throats of Gods and Senators beguiled into trusting 'the masses' - masses inconceivably concealing betrayers and arrogant nay-Sayers lying low, cloaked in subterfuge, cowering, cringing, plotting.

'Me, myself, I' shriek the nay-Sayers! No blessed trumped-up lockdown for Me!

Look to conscience, gentlemen and gentle women, and to the vipers crouching in the chicken-poop.

All Hail! China strikes a goal, unwittingly, unintended and heartily regretted - by virtue of striking the soft-spot, the vulnerability of Western Arrogance and Self-reverence. Me, Myself, I.
Posted by Saltpetre, Tuesday, 4 August 2020 12:40:03 PM
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Loudie, look at the graph for Sweden (my last post), achieved without lockdown, i.e without curfews, enforced closures of whole industries and businesses, people confined for 23-hrs per day etc, but, within people behaving normally and going about their lives within distancing, mask-wearing and hygiene guidelines (except for the vulnerable, who quarantine themselves and are aided by the government to do so, as are those who must isolate due to infection), designed to slow spread but not eliminate the virus.

Nobody is proposing just to let the virus 'rip', a hyperbolic position used by the elimination brigade to characterize opposition to their grand experiment on the populace.

Please explain why your projections should be put ahead of the actual experience of Sweden. Lockdown is a hysterical response to the fact some will have their lives shortened by the virus en route to herd-immunity while others are having their lives shortened by the short and long-term effects of lockdown. This is not to suggest that Sweden will not see any life shortening from economic impacts, but this will be mitigated by its current actions. For example, its future debt will not be ruinous to its ability to provide health, education, welfare, social housing and programs, etc. while debt will be a millstone around our national neck for decades to come.
Posted by Luciferase, Tuesday, 4 August 2020 2:15:43 PM
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Luciferase,

So 5,646 deaths so far in Sweden - with a smaller population than Australia's - is a monumental success ?

Amazing. How do you communicate with Earth from your planet ?

Joe
Posted by loudmouth2, Tuesday, 4 August 2020 3:02:52 PM
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Interesting that in Germany on the weekend some estimated close to a million people marching on the streets against tight lockdowns also believing masks make them slaves. Of course the lying liberal media will label all these conspiracy theorist while our own Government funded media is almost silent pushing the ever changing norman swan doctrine. I would of thought it newsworthy even if you are in agreement with whoever today's 'experts' are.
Posted by runner, Tuesday, 4 August 2020 3:50:54 PM
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runner,

If the German peoples are not fighting someone across the border then they'll just find something amongst themselves to fight about.
Posted by Mr Opinion, Tuesday, 4 August 2020 3:58:26 PM
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runner,don't know about a million, I don't believe there are that many far right extremists, along with their supports from religious fundos, Trumpsters, to conspiracy theorists, and general fruitcakes in Germany.

Happy to see ScumO' has pulled out of backing Fat Clive in his selfish attempt to open up WA to tne far porker and a billion deadly viruses.

Not happy to see ScumO' claiming "We are all in this Together!" only to let a fat cat from DFAT walk into Queensland with the virus from Afghanistan, no checks, no questions asked. Was this a special case?

The NSW Health Minister, The Hazard, has done it gain, after the Ruby Princess and Newmarch House stuff ups, he's now letting people from Victoria walk out of Sydney Airport and go on their merry way.
Posted by Paul1405, Tuesday, 4 August 2020 5:21:44 PM
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Utter rubbish, Joe. Morrison didn't save any lives simply because 99% of the people who contracted the China virus were never going to die. Morrison should be concentrating on "saving" the economy he wrecked, and saving his political career. My bet is that he will lose both. The only thing he has in his favour is that poor, lost soul, Albanese.
Posted by ttbn, Tuesday, 4 August 2020 5:40:07 PM
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Closer to 99.70% ttbn.
Posted by Luciferase, Tuesday, 4 August 2020 8:01:35 PM
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The shining example the 'let it rip' mob like to point to, Sweden, seems is not shining as brightly as they would like. GDP is forecast to decline by 6% this financial year, with official unemployment to climb above 10%, both in line with Australia. The death rate in Sweden is 7.1% (5744 deaths from 81,012 infections) In Australia the death rate is 1.2% of infections or 232 in 18,730.

Fellas, find another shining light, Sweden is completely in the dark. Maybe Trumps America... possibly....nah!
Posted by Paul1405, Tuesday, 4 August 2020 9:03:57 PM
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Here's something Paul1405,
http://swprs.org/studies-on-covid-19-lethality/
Stop with the hysterical, scaremongering, nonsense figures, we've been through this (numerators, denominators, remember?). Clearly, the Swedes have not simply 'let it rip', unless your definition of not doing so is solely focussed on the state shutting down citizen's lives for weeks on end.

I get that you like the elimination pathway to nowhere, it quite possibly even suits your personal economic or social situation for all I know, but you don't get to choose spurious 'facts' on infection fatality rate to support your position. Clearly a whole lot more people than are tested for it have had the virus, based on antibody studies and with T-cell immunity now demonstrated, so hugely raising the denominator.

You should grasp that it's not a simple dichotomy, lives lost vs the economy, but I guess it suits your position to keep it so, along with Loudie who is even more hysterical and nonsensical with his figures
Posted by Luciferase, Tuesday, 4 August 2020 9:44:33 PM
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5,646 deaths in Sweden. Around 240 deaths here in Australia.

So one strategy has cost 25 times, or around five and a half thousand actual real-life bodies, more than the other.

And it's hysterical nonsense to point that out ?

I think you need to see a shrink, Luciferase.

To repeat: Under Trumpf, the US is about to face disaster. Here, we have a problem which will cost us and last a few months, but will be overcome.

The test ? I would vote for Morrison, if I could, next election. If I was American, I would vote for 'Anybody but another Half-Wit'.

Joe
Posted by loudmouth2, Tuesday, 4 August 2020 10:01:30 PM
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Loudie, your reckoning has 1 in 25 Australians dead without isolation or lockdown. Please explain this:
http://ourworldindata.org/grapher/daily-covid-deaths-per-million-7-day-average?country=~SWE
My son flew to Sweden Sunday week ago and is free as a bird compared to how he would be Melbourne where he has lived for three years doing uni. He had to be Houdini to leave, and I don't understand why citizens can't come and go at will. I have a second son stuck at home who can't pull the same trick and return to his business interests overseas. He has personal and business relationships there going to seed. He's having a breakdown over his entrapment as I write. The gov't did not say coming home, as it implored all Australians overseas to do, was entrapment.
Posted by Luciferase, Tuesday, 4 August 2020 11:25:56 PM
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Unfortunately we have those on the Forum who listened to the likes of the Dangerous Doctor Donald and Bug Ridden Boris when it came to Covid-19. These guys fooled our band of Usual Suspects, not hard to do, into believing the virus was nothing more than a touch of the flu, and with a quick dose of diso they would be chomping on choc eggs for Easter. The only danger these guys seen was if you were 95 plus and on your last legs already, then you might, just might, with an outside chance, fall off the perch. If all this failed then there was the magic of herd immunity so they though, more like unheard off immunity. With the shambolic Donald presiding over 160,000 deaths, and the clueless Boris admitting to 46,000, more like 60,000 dead in the UK, and with their economies in ruins, the Usual Suspects wanted Australia to follow these nitwits, or the nitwits in Sweden. How thankful we should be we didn't go down that path and fall into the world of fools like some on here wanted us to do.
Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 5 August 2020 5:57:08 AM
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'These guys fooled our band of Usual Suspects, not hard to do, into believing the virus was nothing more than a touch of the flu,'

come on Paul you know your corrupt friends at the who tweeted their was no human to human transmission and their was no need to stop flights from China. When did you start to dismiss who. You really are pathetic.
Posted by runner, Wednesday, 5 August 2020 9:50:37 AM
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When someone like old Joe threatens to vote for Morrison - which he can't of course unless he is in Morrison's electorate - you know how far to the Left Morrison is.
Posted by ttbn, Wednesday, 5 August 2020 10:40:55 AM
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Luciferase,

I have no idea what the hell you're on about here, that somewhere I asserted that there have been

" .... 1 in 25 Australians dead without isolation or lockdown..... "

Unless you are agreeing that, without our experience of lock-downs, there would have been 25 times as many deaths from this virus ? Is that it ?

If so, then yes, I'll stick by what i wrote. In fact, I'll repeat it slowly for you:

"If Australia had adopted the Swedish model, we could have had 25 times as many deaths as we have had from this virus."

Notice - or get a child to point it out to you - that this does not have anything to do with "1 in 25 Australians."

Fortunately for us, our governments didn't go down the Swedish path and, in fact, they may need to tighten up current restrictions further, in order to bring down the current upsurge in cases in Victoria.

Joe
Posted by loudmouth2, Wednesday, 5 August 2020 11:13:55 AM
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Ttbn,

Hmmmm ...... Paul and SR may disagree with you, but thanks :)

Joe
Posted by loudmouth2, Wednesday, 5 August 2020 11:15:07 AM
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Sweden. Just heard that the CCP virus has petered out in that country. True or not, it probably doesn't matter around OLO, where the same old same old is belted out by the same old posters ad infinitum.
Posted by ttbn, Wednesday, 5 August 2020 11:28:13 AM
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Loudie, you said, "Week 26: Twenty five million Australians - we don't have 32 million to spare.

And July's not yet over.

So doing nothing, as your Dystopian agenda would have demanded, would have hit pretty much all of us by now. Maybe a million might have died by now."

Them's your words. I'm calling them hysterical nonsense and invite you to explain the graph I provided and ttbn's observation now saying the same thing as the graph.
Posted by Luciferase, Wednesday, 5 August 2020 2:57:21 PM
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Luciferase,

I'll stick by my hypothetical: that if nothing whatever had been done, let her rip, bring on herd immunity,

AND

if the number of cases or deaths had doubled at a regular rate each week,

then quite possibly, yes, our entire population could have been affected by now. There are many, many factors which confound this hypothesis, one way or the other, but that's still how things could have been, without strong co-ordination amongst our state and federal governments.

I realise that's it's easy to sit around with your thumb up your arse but do you have a better hypothesis ?

Joe
Posted by loudmouth2, Wednesday, 5 August 2020 3:18:04 PM
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ttbn picked it in one. Not a chance facts can have any impact on hysteria. Just have to let it peter out and wait for the penny to drop, and drop it will, but sadly not before we've completely screwed the lives and prospects of a generation or two of Australians.

I'm helplessly watching a train-wreck.
Posted by Luciferase, Wednesday, 5 August 2020 8:16:57 PM
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