Steele,

"And to be saying off duty police officers were not police officers is just inane. Their skills, training and experience make them completely different to some ordinary citizen who has spent an hour or two if that at a range and are not somehow lost because they are out of uniform."

You are sadly misinformed re police skills versus civilian shooters, very few police ever enter competition pistol shooting and at least one pistol club has banned the police, as an organization, from using their range.

SR,

I'll keep repeating it in the hope that eventually you'll understand it. "That is, if you're unlucky enough to be involved in a mass shooting, you'd better hope that the citizens around you are armed because that's your best hope of survival. "

So it was about, it was always about, guns being on the scene as opposed to guns having to come to the scene of a mass shooting. If you don't get it I'm afraid there's really no simpler way for me to say it.

Apropos that issue, there's a saying that I think sums it up...
In situations where seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

Oh BTW, did I mention that historically, as the number of guns increases, the number of homicides decreases. A little fact that many will try very hard to ignore.

Dear Is Mise,

What a completely ludicrous statement, even from the likes of you.

As much as you would like to fantasise about it targets on a range do not shoot back, nor do they through their behavior give clues to future actions, nor are they to be reasoned with.

Why are you even going there?

Issy, if guns are so safe, down at ye olde gunnie club why don't you start a competition where you shoot at each other. That will add a new dimension for you funsters. Last man standing wins.

Belly,

"However mass murder is not something we want here thankfully the big boys on both sides of politics know that"

Is that, in your opinion, why we haven't had mass murders since the advent of the "John Howard Gun Laws"?

Steele,

"Why are you even going there?"

Because I've seen the mess that police have left ranges in and the general lack of discipline exhibited.

Years ago, in the Defence Department, I was not only "Armourer on the Range" but conducted shoots (saves wages that way, multiskilling) and I had the opportunity to see police shooting and when they came to us they left much to be desired.
Wasn't their fault, it was just the poor training and lack of practice; I don't know what the regime is nowadays but I suspect that not many rounds are fired in practice.

I'd be willing to bet though that there are many civilian shooters who can run rings around most police no matter what the situation is, even with the targets shooting back.