Dear friends, especially Muslims friends, and cynical atheist fellow posters, please view and consider this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1nBSgkkS6M&mode=related&search=

If you ever wondered why the Christian Gospel spread without sword, army, hurting, threats, or power.... this... is why.

I can only 'report'...it is up to you to 'decide'.

As I've testified on many occasions.. the events spoken of in this video, have been a personal reality to me, so I find them very easy to relate to.

As the speaker says..the way..is love. And I have to confess, there have been times when I have personally lacked this enduring and overpowering quality.. to my own shame.
Even David, my namesake, failed at times, and I aspire to be more like BOAZ than David on his bad days.
May the Lord guide us all into His abiding truth.

Why don't you head off to Africa, Asia or the Middle East to try and show people the error of their ways?

"Dear friends, especially Muslims friends, and cynical atheist fellow posters, please view and consider this." (Quote:BOAZ)

That's ENOUGH!!

If you cannot see the hypocrisy in this initial statement then I hold you in utter contempt.

How dare you condescend to posters, elevating yourself in such a superior manner?

Pathetic.

Hi Ginx...
I certainly didn't seek to elevate my 'self' here.. I am simply reporting something I found very touching.

Does it mean nothing to you that God is reaching into the lives of those who are involved in one of the most brutal conflicts of our time ?

Does not touch you also, that a Muslim lady and others, even the Muslim man who gave his life for his conversion... that people are discovering a peaceful pathway between their long history of conflict ?

Honestly, I posted it ...nothing to do with 'me' as such.. why would you think so ?

Do you have a solution to the middle east which is proven to work ?
Has the political entanglement done anything except shed blood ?

This simply me, as a messenger, sharing something I consider valuable. So, I see nothing of any hypocrisy in posting this.

I definitely share it with the goal that you and others will actually 'see' that the God of the New Testament is also the God of 2007, and given the number of calls for 'show me evidence' of God etc.. I don't think it unreasonable to offer this.
blessings to you anyway.

Stg.. I spent 8.5 years in Borneo, but I learnt more than I taught, the people were already believers, and in many cases, made me feel like a spiritual midget compared to them.

I'm sorry you see it as 'telling them the error of their ways'... we are all sinners, and a missionary or evangelist is simply one who has come to see his/her need, and responded to the call and not as a 'master' rather..as Paul said.. a slave/servant.

"Hi Ginx...
"I certainly didn't seek to elevate my 'self' here.. I am simply reporting something I found very touching.

Does it mean nothing to you that God is reaching into the lives of those who are involved in one of the most brutal conflicts of our time ?" (Quote: BOAZ).

Thanks for reply.

OF COURSE you're elevating yourself! Don't be such a silly boy.

It is immensely condescending to assert your belief system as the reason for some sort of enlightenment and compassion in others of a different belief system. It shows an overt innocence and covert bullying style.

'Anything that depicts what I (you) see as 'good behaviour' is -; of course;- the work of GOD'.

I suspect the long-termer's here have gotten used to this kind thing from you! Perhaps I'll learn in time to put up with this kind of "all that is good is God; and YOU, and YOU, and YOU, have to understand that.................whether you like it or not!!

Gimme dat ol' time religion?

It has a LOT to answer for.

For goodness' sake, TRY to develop some tolerance for the rights of others who choose to hold a view/belief system that differs from yours!

Ginx
Our David does actually have a lot of tolerance but I agree some of Davids posts do come across as = preaching.
I dont think its intentional probably more like hes used to mixing with bible study groups and thinks we all understand that way of talk.

David I know you did mot mean to offend but consider the fact that others may take your comment as Your beleif in your Gods is superior and you are offering to rescue them from their Sins[ Sort of] do you follow me?
David`s really interesting actually and it took me ages to work that out.

Hes one of a few to often bag church Leaders but worship God.

I think you have misjudged him as i did in the begining.
He doesnt beleive he walks on the higher moral ground like some do.
Hes quite humble really. I have only ever seen him post as a person on about two threads. These were the most interesting threads I have seen.

The trick is to get him talking [ minus the quotes from the bible]
Sorry Davo.

When everybody learns there is more in life than praying to their relavent Gods and get out there TOGETHER actually working shoulder to shoulder to help the less fortunate the world will be a much better place.

Go out and help some starving Animals or paint an old war widows house together as just people.

Thats the answer for a better world.

Boaz David I am not your enemy, one day we may well have that coffee, but lets not turn in into a street corner preaching thing mate.
Yes I am one of those cynical fellows you speak of, once lost now found in my view I found reality.
Found man is truly great, truly has invented great things and great ideas.
Including so very many Gods I even see one of our inventions every time it rains in the rainbow.
I in no way want to stop you expressing your views but to tell us others must find only your God so very often is boring.

Hi Ginx.... please always remember *you can change the chanel* :)

Nobody grabs your fingers and makes them go 'click' on threads originated by me. But I'm glad you do interact, it provides learning opportunities for me for sure.

It seems that your primary objection to what I post at times (specially if it contains material of an 'evangelistic' nature) is that you simply disagree that there is any possibility of there being some kind of reliable truth from the Almighty available for us.

You surely would not deny me the opportunity to share my core values here ....would you ? If you disagree that there is such a thing as revealed truth from our Creator, thats fine, I certainly cannot change you, so why feel so threatened and annoyed ?

The simple fact that you go after me is indicative that you feel 'your' view of life is in fact superior to mine..speaking on an purely human level. If this were not the case, you would not be trying to shut me up on my own threads.

Its not like I'm going to hunt you down and berate you to your face for not believing in 'my' God... not a chance, so.. take it easy mate.

PALE :) your kind words are always valued. But I do certainly wish to convey the biblical Gospel to any who will listen. This does suggest any personal superiority, it just means that I have realized my own need, and in the light of an experience of personal renewal, I want to share that with others. It DOES suggest though, that I believe the Gospel of Christ is indeed something we should take seriously, but I seek to deliver it in as loving a way as possible. If people don't agree, then they should not in the least feel threatened,-after all, I did have a very friendly meeting with my 'arch rival' FH :)

BELLY. No..ur not my enemy, never thought of you that way. Cheers

Boazy: "If you ever wondered why the Christian Gospel spread without sword, army, hurting, threats, or power...."

Garbage. Have you never heard of the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Conquistadors etc etc?

Actually Ginx, old Boazy's toned down his act on OLO lately. While his missionary line is painful, it's nothing compared to his homophobic and Islamophobic rabble-rousing rants.

Boaz, you are getting desperate. You just don't stop to question anything, do you?

This video is pure propaganda.

It has a man stating that he actually saw Jesus. Do you believe this to be literally true? Of course you don't.

So, ask yourself, what was this doing in a "news" item.

Ah, of course! It wasn't a news item in the sense that most people understand, it was a puff piece from CBN, a Christian web site. It's beginning to make sense now.

This web site is full of "news". Here's what it says about the latest Harry Potter movie:

"In the Bible, the word witchcraft also means rebellion against God. Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix takes this literally. Not only does it teach that it’s okay to use witchcraft to defeat evil, it also explicitly teaches that breaking the rules can be exciting. The movie also has a neo-Pelagian view of good and evil. In that view, you don’t need God’s help to overcome the evil within you. All you have to do is learn how to choose the good on your own using mere willpower<<

I would say that this might be one of those sites that takes itself just a little too seriously, wouldn't you?

But it does have some handy stuff too. Like a really neat-o online prayer system:

"Online Prayer Requests

Take a moment now to send us your prayer request. What is the nature of your prayer request? (Select a category.)

* Salvation for myself
* Salvation for a loved one
* Healing
* Finances
* Family
* Emotions
* Drugs/Alcohol
* Sexual Problems
* Suicide
* Other"

I guess it's good to know that God is up with technology. Must make it a lot easier handling all those prayers, too, having them all in one email intray.

Boaz, do you believe any of that stuff? Then why do you get sucked in by a "news item" from the same source?

David
Sure I understand you are doing what you do.
Now your not going to like this but if the cap fits.
How come all your Godly mates have turned their backs on ANY leadership or responsibilty towards Gods Creatures Animals.

Until the churches stand up and speak out i will continue to bag them LOUDLY.
None of the polys will speak out because hey are OWNDED by the Australian Media.
The media gaints are live animal exporters.
Shame on the Churches and our WEAK leaders. Especially the milky bar kid who ought to be doing all he can asleader of the opposition.

Tell you what I believe David.
When the lord decides to come back to earth it will be also because hes had enough of seeing how we treat Gods Creatures.
In the mean time we have karma. Such as bird flue and other diseases that are capable of wipeing out millions.
Diseases that are born from cruel intensive fariming practises madeby man.
I reckon the lord got it wrong. He ought to have put the Animals in charge.
Then again maybe he has.
The words eye for an eye come to mind.
The enermy is strong Davo. When it arrives on our shores Australians should remember they will be driven by Australias cruel supply of meat to overeas by sending them ALIVE.
After all Australia is the laregest exporter oflive Animals in the world.
I am sure the Lord gets that too!
Shame on All Churches who remain silent about the barbaric treatment of our Animals.
Especially our so called God Following polys.
Family first indeed. What a joke!

Palif... thanx for sharing that. I do appreciate you are passionate about this issue. I wish I could do a Harry Potter so to speak and instantly make it all 'ok', but.. I cannot. I think you would highly benefit from a viewing of the Movie AMAZING GRACE.. truly, when you see the struggle William Wilberforce had with the slave trade.. and how much the politicians were ruled by vested interest..yet..IN TIME.. finally, Wilberforce, his life spent.. his energies given in the lifelong struggle to take John Newtons experience into the political arena and have the NATION repent of slavery.. you will see what u are up against.

PERICLES.. thanx for digging that out, I was in the process of digging also, as I tend not to take such things at face value also.
Having now viewed more of the site, and this video
http://www.cbn.com/700club/features/amazing/ImamConvert_080307.aspx

Your opinion on this please ?
a) Complete Fabrication
b) An Embellished factual account, but blown out of all proportion.
c) The truth.

which is very similar to the report from Jericho, I have to say this.
1/ While the style and presentation of the 700club material, its "American" mood, is DEFinitely not my cup of tea, I am hearing a ring of truth from the mouths of the people shown who's testimony is there for you and I to see.
2/ If you reject that personal testimony, you are left with labelling it all 'a lie' which seems to stretch things a bit far.

Me ? I have no trouble at all believing for others, that which I've experienced. You call it 'propoganda'.. presumably you mean there is a mixture of truth and lie. I suggest there is no 'lie' (but cannot guarantee this) other than the one in your own head which sees it as such.
Such incidents, even when used indirectly or, by inference for 'fundraising' (i.e. "Look at this great story of the Lord at work, now please support us") it would not neccessarily change the reality of the story..

CJ... do we have to re-visit the same historical lessons for you ?

You know as well as I do, that "picking" the Crusades as you do, is exactly the same as what you accuse me of.

You also know by now ...surely, that the spread of the Gospel to which I refer when I speak thus, is that between Pentecost and Constantine. It faced vicious persecution, but grew. During this 300 yrs period.... the 'message' is what gripped peoples hearts.

The 'Crusades' as such are testimony to the NON violent success of the Gospel up to Constantine. Had it NOT been so successful, there would have been no foundation for the Crusades to be build on which could be connected to Christianity.

CRUSADES..some truths.

No matter what the various machinations of State and Papacy at the time, there is no question that they were as much about 'survival' as anything.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Crusade

The First Crusade was launched in 1095 by Pope Urban II with the dual goals of liberating the sacred city of Jerusalem and the Holy Land from Muslims and freeing the Eastern Christians from Muslim rule. What started as an appeal by Byzantine Emperor Alexios I Komnenos for western mercenaries to fight the Turks in Anatolia quickly turned into a wholesale Western migration and conquest of territory outside of Europe.

So... I don't see anything there about 'spreading the Gospel'..but hey..if you can then so be it.

I return to the topic at hand.. 'God is working among Muslims' and bringing them to Christ, without missionaries, just like PAUL was taken in hand by the risen Christ.

"GOD..IS DEAD" in the minds of some people.. but in reality, He is alive and well in 2007.

If we use modern medicine it is bound to be more effective than faith healing. A lot of mumbo jumbo coming from the Charismatics Christians are doing a great harm and alienating the Muslims.

Let the West be fair in their dealings in the Palestinian/Israeli conflict. Stop blaming China, Iran, Venezuela and other countries for the ills of Western countries especially the USA. The US should clean its own backyard of drug addiction, gangs, pornography, sex with underaged-children, corruption, etc. Leave the Arab countries alone and let them work out their own destiny

David
Well I know about the fight for the Slaves and that this is the same pretty much
Question is WHY do you feel I should fight this battle alone.
Why on earth dont you help?
Why does the so called good Church People turn their back on Animals

Answer
Because the creeps are too scared of missing out on the Government grant if they speak out.

I say BAN ALL CHURCES To Stop the Government mis using them as pawns.
If you belong to a Church that does not speak out for the animals then you should leave that Church.
God sees the real Church leaders that speak out against the barbaric Cruelty that the Government and the PEOPLE close their eyes to.

Sometimes I get sick of you going on about nothing too David. I am one of your few supporters but enough is enough. Dont pop up a link and leave it to me. DO SOMETHING YOURSELF. You waiste so much time David.
Stop preaching and get out there and do something PRACTICLE.
That applies for ALL so called Godly Churchies.
More work less talk talk talk .

Hi Palif...
mate.. settle there please. I appreciate your support, but I don't go and ask you to doornock for Christ do I ? I'm happy that you simply 'know'. I don't expect you to stand on a street corner or join me in a public demo.. and proclaim Jesus... that would be up to you entirely.

PHILIP.. I hope I did not give the impresssion that 'faithhealing' is a preferred option to medicine when it comes to sickness..not at all.
Miraculous healing has one goal.. illuminating a heart to the reality of Christ, it is the 'Kingdom' of God in action. The signs Jesus did, were to give credibility to his claims. "I am the light of the World".

The point of the healings reported in this video also, is the same, to lead people to Christ.

Those things you mentioned about cleaning up the backyard of the USA etc.. it applies not just on a national level, but on a personal level, to you as well as me and every American, Chinese, English or European.

Let's not take this thread/topic down the "everyone's pet cause" path please. I started the topic for one primary reason. To show that in spite of vicious persecution against Christians, and barriers to the Gospel set up by Islam itself, and by many radical Muslims in Palestine in particular, God is breaking through all this just as He did in the time of the early disciples.

This is why today there are something like 70,000,000 Christians in China in spite of every Missionary being kicked out in 1954 when there were just 700,000 or so.
blessings.

Now let's see. Boazy wrote "If you ever wondered why the Christian Gospel spread without sword, army, hurting, threats, or power....".

I responded by pointing out just a few well-known historical events that falsify that ludicrous claim. Boazy's reply was "You also know by now ...surely, that the spread of the Gospel to which I refer when I speak thus, is that between Pentecost and Constantine. It faced vicious persecution, but grew. During this 300 yrs period...."

Well hush my mouth! Of course I should have known that Boazy was referring to a particular 300-year period out of Christianity's 2000-year history of holy wars, political manipulation and repression of individuals. Silly me!

Boazy: "If you reject that personal testimony, you are left with labelling it all 'a lie' which seems to stretch things a bit far.

Me ? I have no trouble at all believing for others, that which I've experienced."

Boazy has demonstrated time and again in this forum that his idea of telling the truth is somewhat idiosyncratic. That he should regard the babblings of someone as delusional as himself as credible is understandable, but it in no way elevates his beliefs to a rational appreciation of reality.

I really like that 'pick a prayer' thingy though.

I guess the good thing about all this, Boaz, is that if you are sufficiently gullible to swallow everything that CBN sends your way, there is a real possibility that you will wake up one day and say "hey, I was wrong, I should be following Islam after all".

To be as suggestible as you are makes you particularly vulnerable to a good story, so I propose you keep well away from FH - his positive brand of peaceful worship might just tip you over the edge.

But to be serious, the very fact that you show us these gobbets of blatant propaganda is illustrative of the problem I have been trying to get you to see for quite a while now.

We atheists generally have no problems with god-botherers, of any denomination. You choose to believe in a particular version of the supernatural for your own reasons, and I for one have absolutely no problem with that.

But where I see this as a very personal, individual choice, you see it as something that everyone should adopt as their lifestyle, whatever their background, history or family upbringing. And to this end, you shower us constantly with these dubious case histories, as if they can possibly prove anything, or enlighten anyone, or justify any action.

Being preached at is relatively inoffensive when your target is an atheist. But when you are constantly in the face of people who choose a slightly different path to their God, it becomes, quite simply, an act of aggression.

Please, think about what you are doing.

Perhaps while you are about it, you will think about "why" you are doing it?

Dear Pericles.. I rarely 'swallow' a good story, SPECially if it is a 'Christian' one.... I examine it from a number of angles, and seek other reports about it from critical sources.
I've not found anything critical of this ladies ministry, except that you might note that the video about her work does not even mention things which would make a REAL GOOD story much more colorful.
http://deborahcompany.com/debco_website/whats_your_story/99BDC6D9-1722-4F8A-89D4-062F1890412A.html

-4 x firebombings (reported in Sanfrancisco Chronicle)
-Moved 4 times when house and car torched.

Here is another take by the Christian edition of the Jerusalem Post
http://www.icej.org/article.php?id=3921

Yesss..I knowwww.."It's just Israeli propoganda" so, you have to filter it with the 'selectivity which makes Israel look good' filter.

Here is a non Christian blog about her..

http://blogs.salon.com/0003494/2006/06/10.html

and their actual web site

http://www.livingbreadchurch.com/About%20Us.htm

I will accept her story to the extent that it 'rings true' in terms of what she says and what is verifiable from other sources, and is compatible with Biblical teaching.
I fail to see why one must 'begin' with rejection.. would you conduct a trial like that ? Hardly.

GOOD STORIES/GULLABILITY.. yep..I have to confess that my gullability does extend to the Bible.. plenty of goods stories there. But when it comes to 'Post New Testament' good stories.. we must beware. I've seen how 'myths' are created and watched a definitely fabricated one happen over time in Borneo, so.. you will have to trust my experience on this.

CJ. I point to the initial 300 yrs of expansion of the Church for very valid reasons. This shows that the Gospel, does not NEED any military force behind it to expand... don't you 'get' this by now?

Of course it does not make the Crusades or Inquisition periods dissappear, but it DOES show they were not need for the success of the Gospel.. that is for sure.
Do you ...finally.. at long last.. actually 'get' this ?

Boazy, if you want people to understand what you're preaching, you'll have to learn to express yourself better. Your original claim that the "Christian Gospel spread without sword, army, hurting, threats, or power" wasn't restricted by your subsequent qualification of that claim to an initial 300-year period, after which Christianity apparently developed its less savoury aspects. How were we supposed to know that you were only referring to the period "between Pentecost and Constantine", when you didn't specify it?

Mind you, I've no doubt that Muslim apologists could point to similar historical periods where their religion spread by equally peaceful means, so what's your point?

Boazy: "you will have to trust my experience on this."

Sorry, no deal. You've been caught out telling porkies, stretching the truth, and gullibly relating fairy stories too often for that to be a viable option.

But Boaz, you have to admit that your critical faculties, when it comes to anything Christian, are substantially underdeveloped compared to those you employ on matters Islamic.

Every single time.

From your last post:

<<Here is a non Christian blog about [Karen Dunham]..

http://blogs.salon.com/0003494/2006/06/10.html<<

Boaz, if that is your idea of a "non-Christian" blog, then here is no wonder your entire outlook is skewed. It is a genuine blog, in the sense that it has many feeds and references. But one look at the blog owner's publications will tell you the direction he leans.

"Publishing, Celebrity, and the Globalisation of Conservative Protestantism"... "Religious Mission and Business Reality: Trends in the Contemporary British Christian Book Industry"... contributions to "A Dictionary of Christian Biography" and "Christian Think-Tanks Influence Gay Politics", plus book reviews of "Christians in the Holy Land" and "The Christian Heritage in the Holy Land"

Face it, Boaz, you wouldn't notice pro-Christian bias if it shook you by the hand and gave you an embossed business card saying "Propaganda-r-us"

>>I fail to see why one must 'begin' with rejection.. would you conduct a trial like that ? Hardly<<

In a very real sense, Boaz, yes you would.

Because in a court, the opposing counsel will make absolutely sure that every aspect of relevant background is introduced to enable the jury to establish the context of that witness's testimony.

But I'd appreciate more detail on this:

>>when it comes to 'Post New Testament' good stories.. we must beware. I've seen how 'myths' are created and watched a definitely fabricated one happen over time in Borneo, so.. you will have to trust my experience on this<<

If you have actually seen myths in the process of fabrication, how is it that you resist the idea that this might have happened to the gospels? If the need for the story is great enough - and there were a fair few people with a vested interest in the success of the new religion - the fabrication process simply needs that much more care.

But it can, as you know, be done.

Boaz David said “ I fail to see why one must 'begin' with rejection.. would you conduct a trial like that ? Hardly”

Boaz, that’s exactly how a trial works, there is assumed to be no evidence against the accused until some is brought before the court. This is the meaning of Habeus Corpus, literally ‘produce the body'. We expect the same standard of proof from those who 'claim' to see Jesus and other 'miracles'

You said” I point to the initial 300 yrs of expansion of the Church for very valid reasons. This shows that the Gospel, does not NEED any military force behind it to expand... don't you 'get' this by now?”

What that initial 300 years says is that Christians didn’t have enough numbers or power to take crusade-like action. That was their consolidation phase.

You said “this is why today there are something like 70,000,000 Christians in China in spite of every Missionary being kicked out in 1954 when there were just 700,000 or so.”

Conversion of Christians in Asia is ethically challenged. Converts are offered all sorts of inducement to get their conversion. Education is the most insidious, since the evengelicals get young impressionable kids to brainwash. But the economic benefits to becoming Christian are also a persuasive force for conversion. Christian hospitals are set up, with nurses offered jobs if they convert. These nurses are expected to help convert patients.

Its an ugly system but the evangelical churches are out to convert at any cost

"The simple fact that you go after me is indicative that you feel 'your' view of life is in fact superior to mine..speaking on an purely human level. If this were not the case, you would not be trying to shut me up on my own threads.

Its not like I'm going to hunt you down and berate you to your face for not believing in 'my' God... not a chance, so.. take it easy mate." (Quote:BOAZ)

1)View of life superior? You would not have chosen the life that I willingly chose, and I can promise you that if you know what that was you would be feeling pretty silly suggesting that I saw it in any way as superior!!BUT;-it is in no way inferior either, preacher.

2)Trying to 'shut you up on your own threads'?? Grief!...this is the WWW. This is a FORUM....

3) Thank-you for not hunting me down and ATTEMPTING to berate me to my face.

Take it easy mate........

Ginx.. I see a lot of negative passion there... "anti God" ? or anti BD ? :)

All I'm doing is relating a story of a dedicated person doing a good work bringing peace and healing to hearts, bodies and minds.

Where all this 'you this you that.. you hypcrite you such and such' came from is rather elluding me at the moment.

You only seem to know one kind of reaction mate "explosive"....

Are you not able to relate to this woman and what she is doing ? Does it have to suddenly become about 'BD the hypocrite'?
Why can it not be about 'Karen Dunham...caring Christian'

Seriously, when you look at the progress (not) between the Israelis and Palestinians, and then.. you see what this woman has been achieving.. its a bit sad that you cannot see either the hand of God at work or at least a bit of 'good work' on a human level.

I don't expect you to come rushing forward in humility as we sing the last verse for the 15th time at the end of the revival service, (perhaps I should..I've seen it happen) but I really don't see why you appear to be so angry.
cheers

I'm sorry David, I got distracted by the You Tube videos listed as those related to the one you gave. Most of them were on foot fetish and toe kissing. Some of them had porno music, and naughty girls kissing feet.

That's You Tube for you, it can be unpredictable.

Oh, the west Bank. God Bless them.

I honestly hope they are happier now with their new faith.

Hi Saint :) yes..I noticed those silly side shows too... I was going to look at one of them because it looked like a huge 'grub' or something, then when I looked closer I saw it was a 'foot' so didn't go further :)

Not only is it 'youtube' but its also life eh ? How many 'well decorated distractions' are there which try to deflect us from the best, and most worthwhile things in life.

I guess one tragedy of this story is the violence which ensued.... this dear woman has been firebombed 4 times... its like Hindu Zealots firebombing Mother Theresa because she was 'converting people with gifts' kind of thing.

I'm kinda waiting for the poster who says "HAH! look at her....she is 'buying' conversions with material stuff... they are not real, just claiming conversion to get money and food".... and given the experience of my own mission in China, this is probably unavoidable to a degree and where we coined the term 'Rice Christians')... BUT.. and its an important but, the work being done by Karen is not 'conditional' on conversion, it IS conditional only in the sense that a bit of christian literature will accompany any gift. The recipient can simply chuck it in the bin if they like and it will not mean they don't receive further help.

If anything, I suggest any conversion in that environment would be most sincere.. and not food related, why ? because one man, a father of 8 who did convert, stood his ground and was repeatedly threatened and finally killed.

Jesus said
18 "If the people of this world hate you, just remember that they hated me first. 19 If you belonged to the world, its people would love you."

The same mentality which stirred up a crowd to 'get rid of' Jesus, is at work against Karen.

Boaz said
I don't expect you to stand on a street corner or join me in a public demo.. and proclaim Jesus... that would be up to you entirely.
PALE replies

Buddy Little mate.
I thought you would never ask.
I except- Where and when?

The 11th hour of the 11th day, of the 9th month...Parliament house Melbourne :)

But that is a demo against *this* (or its embryo form)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phjhtVAKAdE&NR=1

This is a vid produced by Hezbollah..NOT some Islamic hate site.

If this does not strike terror and concern into Australian Jews and non Muslims... little ever will, except the feeling of blood as their throat is cut when its too late.

But for me... I have compassion and concern for animals, but more for people... I worry far more about the human targets of that video, than I do about animals.. but if you point out specific issues, as I've done before, I will weigh it up and seek to address it as best I can with a letter. (as I've already done)

newlifeinhim777@yahoo.com.au If you need info.

Negative passion eh?

You're right. You are an irritating little twot who uses a Christian ethic like a battering ram.

Over to you.

Boaz, you are paranoid.

>>a demo against [this video] (or its embryo form)... if this does not strike terror and concern into Australian Jews and non Muslims... little ever will, except the feeling of blood as their throat is cut when its too late<<

I don't know what you saw, Boaz, but I saw a video that encourages aggression against Israel.

We are not in Israel, or in the vicinity of Israel. We do not share their politics, their borders, their nuclear warheads or their army. We are not a threat to Palestinians. We do not occupy any land that the Palestinians believe is theirs.

In short, we are not even remotely the target of the violence underpinning this video.

Unless you believe that those shots of marching armies are precursors of what we might see in Cronulla, I fail to see its relevance to "Australian Jews and non Muslims", let alone see why these good people should feel terrified by it.

Yes, it is unpleasant to watch. Yes, it gives you a very clear idea of how unpopular is Israel to militant Palestinians.

But the only reason you can possibly have for introducing it here is to run it as an analogue of your "the mozzies are coming, the mozzies are coming" campaign.

Which is, I'm afraid, fundamentally dishonest of you.

Pericles...... there are various reasons for providing a link to that video, but how about we stick to the reasons given.

"Against this or at least in its embryonic form"

Here is the Embryo.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVAc5RPfAfQ&mode=related&search=

So, we have Hezbollah in Lebanon...
This demonstration "F*&^k Yahood" in Sydney....
13 blokes on trial in Melbourne.. 11 in Sydney charged with terrorism.

Today, I met with a Jewish person, a Messianic Jew, a Christian and an Atheist.... 2 of us were the specific 'objects' of this hate.
Both of them support Israel...

and..."I'm Paranoid"... I honestly think Pericles that until someone rocks up to your front door with a rocket launcher you will not feel any urgency about this kind of thing.

But the point here, is (bringing it back to the topic)-God reaching out to Muslims.
So..it is in spite of this kind of goings on, that nevertheless, light is shining, and I note with interest that Olmert and Abbas chose "Jericho" to begin peace talks again. (where the initial video for this thread was made.)

Boazi

"with the dual goals of liberating the sacred city of Jerusalem and the Holy Land from Muslims"'

Why did Jerusalem need liberating from the Muslims? And why by Christians? That was hardly a commendable thing.

If you accept that Christianity went astray with Constantine. assuming I understood you, then parts of Islam have gone astray with the modern Jihad. But as you know Christianity has good at its centre and so has Islam. The basic principals of the three Abrahamic religions are similar and good.

Can we not separate religious belief from opportunistic groups such as the Crusaders or Hisbollah?

Hi Logic...welcome to the thread.

Well.. in a very general way, I can agree with you on the 'central ideas' of the Abrahamic faiths, but will have to defer to your own email to me mate.. where you stated that the exesses of the Crusades etc cannot be linked to the teaching of Jesus, but the wars of Islam can very much be linked to the Quran and Sunnah.
I spent quite a bit of time yesterday looking for Sharia rulings on 'Jihad' in particular Offensive and Defensive and what criteria existed to determine which applied.

I found very little, but I did notice a trend. They often spoke of 'defensive' Jihad, but in the context of 'conquered territories'
Spain was used as an example. They spoke of how it is neccessary for all Muslims to rise to the challenge of defending 'Muslim Lands' but they seemed to avoid the historic reality that those lands were taken by 'conquest', particularly Spain.

CRUSADES..and 'why by Christians'

Probably best to read up the background, it was not simple or straight forward. The Byzantine Emperor made a call for help not so much about the fate of Jerusalem,but of his own territory which was under threat from the Turkik Muslim tribes.
I'd say (from reading) that "Jerusalem" and the idea of "The Holy city" were used as 'emotional hooks' by the Pope to gee up the general populace.

So in concluson. (speaking from a New Testament perspective)

1/ Jerusalem did not 'need' to be liberated at all.
2/ Certainly not by Christians.
3/ Romans 13 does come into play though, and is the only valid basis I can see for going to war against Islam at the time...nothing to do with Jerusalem or Israel.

David

I expect that you, fellow human and I will be sitting around a dinner table some day and enjoying a friendship.

But I must clarify one point. I meant that some sections of the Quran have been interpreted (misinterpreted?) by evil people to justify Jihad, and the Gospels cannot be interpreted that way. However someone did put on the site an awful interpretation of a statement in Exodus which suggested Jews were instructed to kill non believers. When I checked that statement with a translation prepared by Jewish scholars with commentary by Rabbi Rashi, I saw a totally different statement.

Trouble with translations from ancient text is that you have to be conversant with the early meaning and context of the language. That is why fellow human can give us a meaning which does not allow killing of non Muslims. My contention is that the Quran may be easier to misinterpret.

Thanx Logic... I know what you mean.. thats why I, without Arabic skills rely on at least 3 or more translations to get a better picture of what the Quran is saying..I also familiarize myself with not only the historical background, I also try to see how a particular section has been 'interpreted' by various Islamic factions.

My own background in biblical interpretation and exposure to higher criticism, and familiarity with textual issues does help in assessing this kind of thing.

Yes..I do hope we can have a nice fellowship together some time :)
But on such occasions, I tend to be just a 'bloke' rather than my online persona :) as FH now knows.

The problem with ripping into the radicals... is that the moderates feel threatened also. I don't think Nazism and its attitude towards Jews, can be defeated unless one can demonstrate that Hitlers "and in defending myself against the Jews, I know I am doing the Lords work" (Mein Kampf) can be shown to be NOT "The Lords work" on the basis of scripture.

On the other hand, I don't believe you can understand radical Islamists apart FROM the Quran and Sunnah. Even if some like FH cannot see justification for hating Jews or Christians in some passages, others do... in fact they VERY do... so given that their (radicals) understanding is costing many lives, and threatens even the existence of Israel, we have a duty to try to determine who is right, and then, we can seek to solve it.

I don't want to just be negative, and this thread is an example of trying to be positive.

David

We seem to have stopped the debate. When the principal protagonists shake hands and look for common ground the spectacle is over.

We know that many Muslims take personal offense at any criticim of their religious beliefs. they find it difficult to understand " Freedom" of religion" in the west means that people are free to criticize Islam as well as any other religion!
This freedom is something very hard for some muslims to understand because they livedin Islamic countries, where any criticim of Muhammad or the Quran is viewed as criminal offense punishable by death. Under Islamic law no criticim of Muhammad or the Quran orIslam is alloed. In other words there is no fredom of or from religion in Muslim Countries. When Western Scholars appply scientific standards to the truth claims of Islam, they do not want this to be constructed as a personal attack .
Nobody should be afriad of reseach and we should all be free to do so

People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, your observation is indeed correct.

The Muslims have declared war on the non-Muslims in Thailand and Philippines, and in fact many places of the world.

In Thailand since 2004, the Muslims have killed about 2500 people. They kill even old people, chopped of their heads and burn their bodies. In a war situation things are simplified, a Muslim kills a non-Muslim and vice versa.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-6833183,00.html
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8QSQUI80&show_article=1&cat=0

In the Philippines the news is about the same. Muslims have declared war on the non-Muslims.
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/SP207525.htm

The time will come when all the mosques and religious Muslims schools that preach Islam, the religion of violence and decapitating heads in these area are destroyed.

Boaz has bend backwards in trying to convert Muslims. He should take advice from 2:Cor.6:16-18.

Its all very simple. Go to Saudi Arabia and apply to set up churches say, ten churches, if the Saudis deny building of churches and setting up of missions, close an equal number of mosques in Australia.

Phillip
Well Boaz should NOT try to convert them - just explain they should NOT try to convert us.There is a difference.
What we all need to remember is this. Religion has been the exuse for wars since the begining of time.
Answer is- Ban all religion. simply.

Just think how much more aid would get through if we wernt feeding big wages to heads of whatever Churches!
People just helping others despite the colour or religion.
Aboriginal people being the biggest winners!.

I am not happy with either Muslim Leaders Or Church Leaders in their lack of concern for Gods creatures.

If our Church leaders were smart they would use this NEW proposal not to stun Animals before having their throats cut in the name of Allah!.
However they are not that clever so I guess In will have to raise it publicly and invite them to make a comment.
"Ring The Bells"
!
Kosha is even MORE cruel so we are not saying stop this proposal not to pre stun Animals in Australian Abattoirs ONLY for Muslims either.
As this thread is about Muslims I will leave you with this thought.

Jesus never killed or robbed anybody. If he had this would have been brought up at his trial. When we look at the life of Muhammad we find tha the clearly killed and robbed people in the name of Allah
"According to the Quaran."

Its all very simple. Go to Saudi Arabia and apply to set up churches say, ten churches, if the Saudis deny building of churches and setting up of missions, close an equal number of mosques in Australia.
Posted by Philip Tang, Saturday, 11 August 2007 11:24:43 AM

Pale Replies-
Well said! Philip. Good to see some Aussie spirit on OLO for a change. We should all take a leaf out of your book.If they dont like it here- leave BUT dont try to change OUR ways or they will get more than they thought.

This sort of attitude always puzzles me.

>>if the Saudis deny building of churches and setting up of missions, close an equal number of mosques in Australia.
Posted by Philip Tang, Saturday, 11 August 2007 11:24:43 AM

Pale Replies-
Well said! Philip. Good to see some Aussie spirit on OLO for a change. We should all take a leaf out of your book.<<

I thought that one of the defining characteristics of our society was that we are NOT as closed-minded as others. I thought that it was a good thing, to be tolerant, understanding of differences and generous-spirited. I thought, for example, that being a christian meant that you love your fellow-man, for all their faults and foibles. I thought as well, on another level, that the response "Yah-boo-sucks to you" belonged in the school playground.

But here are two people who think that it is a good thing to follow the example of Saudi Arabia in some form of impotent tit-for-tat tantrum.

It is pretty astounding thinking, really. They clearly approve of the Saudi Arabian political and social system, and wish to replicate it here.

In which case, surely it is more logical that they should emigrate to Saudi Arabia, rather than suggesting that "If they dont like it here- leave".

The reason we like it here, PALEIF and Philip Tang, is because Australia is - generally speaking, and with a few notable exceptions - a caring and tolerant society, that is big-hearted enough to understand that not all people are rabid, bible-thumping evangelists.

Perciles
There is a difference between kindness and cowardness.

Have you first hand experience of working with Muslim leaders in Australia? I have.

They COUNT on our kindeness. They see it as weak. They have no regard and less respect for us.

No regard for our laws our people our children our parents our churches our courts.

We are considered a huge joke world wide.

And why not? The Government refuse to stand up to them with many deals through trade and lots of contacts with Saudi Oil Money.

They wont let us take over their country or have ANY say in what happens so why should we tolerate them taking over ours.

The difficulty there is in undestanding why Phillip and i would say that is you dont why Islam cant be deeply rooted in Australia.

We dont see religion as having the power to rule over all of life.

Instead, there is a secular realm in which organised religion has no authority.
So Thus! theres a wall of seperation between Church and State.

Translated in terms you will understand it simply means you can have warm and fussy feelings towards these people BUT they will only see that as a weakness.
Phillip is correct.
Let us! open Ten Churches to spread the word of freedom as WE know it.
That would seem to me to be a reasonable response from a country where by we have taken in so many of their people.
Do unto others
etc. and so forth.
Surely if Australians are to be so tolerant of THEIR Religioun in our country they ought to be likewise to ours.
Anything less would be an insult to all Australians.

Philip.. you will always interest me when you use scripture :) but I point you to the preceeding verses of that same chapter including this:

"11We have spoken freely to you, Corinthians, and opened wide our hearts to you. 12We are not withholding our affection from you, but you are withholding yours from us. 13As a fair exchange—I speak as to my children—open wide your hearts also."

But the whole chapter is a good one.

The following is very relevant to the call 'NOT' to seek the conversion of non Christians:

IICor 4:1
[Therefore, since through God's mercy we have this ministry, we do not lose heart. 2Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.]

No matter how close to Pauls way we are, we will always be 'gluttons and drunkards' to some and 'demon possessed' or 'odious' to yet others. We still go on proclaiming though, for in that proclamation, Gods grace is announced.

PALE, are you suggesting that wanting to live in a free country is cowardly?

>>There is a difference between kindness and cowardness.<<

We should, according to your way of thinking, be brave enough to discard all the freedoms that our predecessors have earned for us, and return to a form of dictatorship?

What, for goodness' sake, is cowardly about upholding principles of fairness and decency? There is even a Christian mantra somewhere - honoured more in breach than observance, clearly - that talks of turning the other cheek. Or is that simply cowardice too?

I cannot see the point of objecting to something you disapprove of, only to offer the same behaviour in retaliation. Just seems dumb to me.

Perciles said-

There is even a Christian mantra somewhere - honoured more in breach than observance, clearly - that talks of turning the other cheek. Or is that simply cowardice too?
Reply
Yep sure is when the good Christian Leaders st on ther lorals and say nothing about the treatment of Gods Creatures our Australian Animals.
Too scared of losing their bit of funding. Shame

How about the silence from them over this propsal by Muslim Leaders to be allowed to hold ritual slaughter of millions of Animals In Australia?

The reason is because they WONT do anything to work with Western Countries- and because Pre Stunning was introduced by the West they reject it.

Let them go back to their pre historic ways if they cant respect our laws.
I will bet you a shilling on the side if I went to the ME and tried to open several Christian Churches and Meat plants using pre stunning I would be run out of town if not stonned to death.

Whats that song- For thirty bits of silver a man became a Rat?

All you fuzzy wuzzy luvi luvi rubbish is laughed at by Muslims who want to take control of Australia.

There is a difference between kindness and stupidity and our country is in trouble as they take away way our life style.
We used to say the lords prayer at school.
Thats no longer allowed because it may offend these new people.
How much MORE warning do you need.
Phil was right.

Taryn W: "All you fuzzy wuzzy luvi luvi rubbish is laughed at by Muslims who want to take control of Australia."

Yup, I'll bet PALEIF conducts highly successful negotiations with Muslims when their members write such rubbish on public forums in Australia.

From the often incomprehensible nonsense published on their behalf in this forum, I get the clear impression they're a bunch of nutters. Well-meaning, but unhinged nonetheless.