Hello PBP,

Calling Islam a religion of hate is a little simplistic, but nor do I wish to reassure you that Islam is a peaceful religion. At best, Islam is a religion of intolerance.

Think about Jesus, Buddha, or Confucius. These icons of religious/philosophical belief were known for their wisdom, and to my knowledge spoke against voilence. Accordingly, it is not surprising that people who follow these faiths and philosophies are not generally inclined to violence.

Unfortunately, Islam's icon, Mohammed, was a conqueror of men and taught a faith that appears to have been rather preoccuppied with subverting other faiths and ensuring his follower's loyalty (it is interesting how much of the Koran is concerned with how to deal with Jews, Christians and other unbelievers). His "heroic" triumphs over his enemies involved what by modern western standards would be regarded as barbaric butchery and his writings reflect an approval of very harsh treatment for the enemies of God (Allah).

Of course, if we judge the conduct of Mohammed as a man, we can see that he had a certain 'greatness' like Caesar or Alexander, and note that his butchery and savagery merely reflected that he was a man of his times.

However, if you look upon such a man through the eyes of Islam, as a Muslim does, then you must accept that his butchery and mistreatment of his 'enemies' was Allah's will and with Allah's approval. It follows that his methods, as savage as they were, are approved by Allah. Accordingly, no one should be surprised to find Islam's followers far more inclined to violence. Islam is a religion that condones violence against non-believers. No doubt about that.

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Of course, as you note, not all Muslims are rabid suicide bombers. Far from it. The 'moderates' amongst the religious muslims appear to take a view that violence is only called for in quite limited circumstances - Such as when Islam itself is under attack, then even moderates will advocate violence. Such was the response to the Danish cartoons.

While a 'moderate' interpretation of the Koran is possible, given the Prophet himself did not wage unremitting war against all unbeliever's at all times, I strongly suspect any such interpretation is steeped in pragmatism. Violence against your enemies only works if you can defeat your enemies. Thus the periods of peaceful Islam often coincide with its enemies relative military strength.

Finally, I invite you to do some research. It is very hard indeed to find a passage in the New Testament which approves of voilence even in a qualified way. Christ was unambiguously against it. The Koran is a very different matter. Accordingly, no one should be surprised that anytime Muslims feel pressured by non-Muslims, they are likely to respond violently.

For the record, I consider myself a skeptical agnostic with a certain disdain for anyone who substitutes dogma for thought. I only started taking an interest in the details of Islam after 9/11. Before that I assumed, like most today, that Islam was a religion/philosophy much like all the others. The muted condemnation by muslim leaders, and (a good muslim ex-friend), of the murder of thousands of civillians on 9/11 made me wonder what made muslim's tick. What I found was very alarming.

If I'm wrong about any of this I'll be very pleased to hear it, but I've yet to hear a single convincing argument that Islam should be regarded as peaceful.

Kalin1,

Thank you for the nice tone, probably better than mine. I was at the doctor, doing doctor stuff, for almost 2 days. Those guys are worthless - to a degree. I stopped paying much attention to them years ago.

Yes, I know about reverse postings, but I never paid any attention to rules. Shame on me. Also, I think it has little practical value. I said that yes, Palestinians suffer, and then I told you my view. To do it your way, I would have to ignore facts, feelings and opinions. It would be an exercise in self-deception. Another thing that must be considered is that the "Palestine" issue is part of the "Muslim" issue. The Muslims themselves have chosen to present it this way, so the situation in Israel and the occupied lands cannot be divorced from the "Islam" problem. That makes it very easy for me, because I know Islam. I have seen the hate and violence, denial and deception that flows freely from this ideology.

I will read your post again and reply after I take care of some housework, wash the dishes, check out the cactus garden, and do other manly duties.

Hey Kalin1, for a minute there I was terrified. I thought that Goddess what mad at me. I read her comment above, and I took it as a complaint about my unending, relentless and sometimes overdone comments on Islam. I saw that she opened a topic on "Customer service" and imagined that she was complaining about things I said, or the neverending battle here on this issue by some of us (Db, FH, you, et al). Now one thing I hate is to argue with a woman, mortal or not, human or goddess. Fortunately her post about customer service is about customer service, not censorship or our rants as I initially thought.

Take care.

kactus

West Bank is predominantly Christian-so what, is a problem lesser-
""Palestine" issue is part of the "Muslim" issue" ?

SPECIAL FOR PIT BULL PAT....

Hi Pat.. I noted your comment that you cannot imagine a people following a religion based on hate.

I agree... most people will not consciously (this includes Muslims) consider that their faith is based on 'hate'...the psychology as best I can understand it is this:

1/ "I follow (name Deity)"
2/ "My Deity's rules are such and such"
3/ "It is good for all humanity if they follow my deities rules"

So far so good.

But now the crunch..

4/ Those who do not follow my deities rules should be ....(fill in the blanks according to which Deity and religion.)

That is the point, where any person needs to acquaint themselves with the doctrines, teachings, and history of the particular faith in question.

Personally, I prefer to limit that approach to the founder, and immediate circle of followers. The reason for this, is that most if not all of the major definitive aspects of that faith will have firmed up and be clear.

Rather than say too much about Faith X or Y, I recommend a study of the Christian Gospels, and as Kactuz has done, a study of the life of Mohammad and a reading of the Quran.

If you doubt that there are some serious issues which are a cause of concern, please look at Surah 9:29 and 30 of the Quran.
The sentiments expressed in those verses, are also echoed and re-affirmed in the history and oral traditions of Islam, in particular
in Hadith Muslim book 1 numbers 29, 30, 31, 32
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/001.smt.html#001.0031

and hadith Bukhari
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/056.sbt.html
Volume 4, Book 56, Number 660

Would you like it if I broke into your home, took over, told you that now "I run the show" and "This is for your own good" (whether you like it or not)
That is the meaning of the above, and I find it hard to construe that as anything but 'hate'(for my values).

While FH rejects the Hadith as 'stories' they are accepted by the major Islamic schools. (we disagree on this :)

newlifeinhim777@yahoo.com.au