BD,
OK, I'll email you.

Goddess,
A rather strange name. I guess I am boring all of you. The problem is that I spent a lot of time, time that I don't have, reading dozens of Islamic books.

I do not mind the murders and violence in Islam per se, it is normal for the time and place. Consider Julius Ceasar,Alexander Magno, GenghasKhan and other greats. They were men of many talents, wisdom, daring, good deeds and bad, even humor. So was Mohammad. The problem is not even that he did so many bad things as recorded in the ahadith.

The problem is that Muslims are incapable of being honest about the basic facts of his life and message. The problem is they consider him a great example, worthy of emulation. Unless you study Islam and read commentaries on Islamic websites, you have no idea of the mentality of Muslims. It boggles the mind.

Never do you find any Muslim willing to take a hard look at the facts. This is why the terror problem will not go away. This is why 'moderates' can not, will not, change anything.

In the post above about torture or in wife beating, you would think a Muslim would add a note or small print saying 'there are instances in the traditions that seem to indicate that these did occur... bla bla bla' and try to justify the narrative. No. Only rarely will a Muslim even consider the problem, usually with some broad denial. Because I see so many errors, or outright lies, I feel that Muslims are not being honest with us. Many are probably not honest with themselves.

OK, so much for this debate. I will post the 'Women in the Quran' topic and call it off. Tis a pity - I did a really good study on Asma, checking all the sources.

Anybody want to talk about the Palestinians? Why don't we look at the Palestinian situation through the eyes of the few, persecuted Christians remaining in that region?
http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,457002,00.html

Things are going to get much worse in a few years.

Topic: All the women named in the Quran.

Here is complete a list of every female mentioned by name in the Quran:

Mary.

That is it. Done. No more. So much for the high regard Islam has for women.

I have no idea how many women are mentioned in the Bible, but it certainly is in the hundreds. As far as I remember the Quran does mention some other women, but not my name: Adam’s mate, the mother and sister of Moses, the wife of Lot, the wife of Pharoah, the Queen of Sheba - all from the Bible. No mention of Hagar/Hajar. In fact, the only reference to a specific woman in the Quran is a rather strange statement (58:1-4) about a wife that complained about being divorced from her husband because he said she was zihar (like her mother), or because his wife's rear end looks like that of her mother (“likening their backs to the backs of their mothers,” Shakir’s translation). The Quran says this is very bad thing, but if it happens you can free a slave, or fast for two months, or if you can't do that, buy lunch for 60 poor people. I quote: "Those are limits set by Allah." Rather flexible limits for saying and doing something condemned as “blasphemy and a falsehood” (Khalifa’s translation) or “iniquitous and false" (Yusuf Ali's). So for less than A$500, or 60 meals at $8+ each, this terrible sin is taken care of. Wow! Another good thing in this passage is that it clears up the confusion about motherhood: Quote: “Their mothers are the women who gave birth to them.”

Oh yes, regarding Mary the mother of Jesus. Somebody (DB?) please tell Mohammad or Allah that Mary is not part of the Trinity in Christian theology, as stated in the Quran (5:116). What kind of stupid mistake is this? She was also not the sister of Aaron (Surah 19:27, 28). That was Miriam, not Mary! Yeah, a really perfect book.

Kactuz

end of topics, unless provoked...

Kactuz,

Apologies, between work, study and kids I suddenly got very busy. Still am.

Also, your post demonstrates your wide learning on this topic, but you have somewhat missed the point of the reverse post challenge. You need to use that learning to put up some kind of argument in favour of Islam. Well that was the idea.

For the record Kactuz, 'he' definitely isn't my prophet and in fact, though I'm not as well read as you on this topic, I largely agree with your views on Islam. No need to try to convert me in that sense. 9/11 affected me very deeply and I took it upon myself to try to read the Koran, have never bothered with the Haddith's beyond what people have occationally directed me to. Managed about 2/3 of it. One thing it has over the Bible IMO is it's a short easy to read. One thing it doesn't have over the Bible - It's full of malice toward everyone who hasn't signed up to Islam.

There's also a whole stack about camels and slaves which demonstrated it really is a primitive book stapled to the geography and past from which it originated. How any intelligent person can derive faith from it hard to understand. They all seem to have taken the bit forbidding disbelief to heart so as to suspend their intellects.

It is a thoroughly human book written by men who plainly couldn't see beyond their own reality.

Your Gecko story was a bit obscure for me, but your theory that killing lizards was somehow good practice for them may be right. I guess most of the writers lived in the desert of Arabia and probably had little else to practice on. Or perhaps in their minds, unblievers were rightly compared to scaly creatures.

I'd be more interested in hearing your thoughts on your proposed topic 5, but comparing Muslim treatment of minorities with Christian treatment of minorities. Can we try that. Will try to respond in a day or so.

Demos,

Your stated understanding of history includes mostly valid facts. What it completely misses is the historical context (you don't make ANY reference to why the Israeli's were doing what they were doing). Using such selective history one could easily assert what poor victims of foreign aggression the Nazi's were. Surely a smart guy like you can be fairer than that.

Surely you don't consider young Israeli's citizens responsible for the plight of Palestinian's today. If you do, please explain in what way a 16 or 18 or 20 or even a 30 year old Israeli has caused the current state of affairs. Whether you believe the Israeli's or the Palestinian's are terrible, how can you justly blame particular individuals? If particular individuals can be blamed, should the hatred be confined to them?

Pitbull,

You say "I cannot emphasise strongly enough how much I disagree with the comment that Islam is a religion of hate. What a bloody stupid thing to say."

Why is it a stupid thing to say? Please elaborate.

As I said before, please stick around. You have taken the middle ground on this topic and the world needs more poeple to do that. But you don't advance that cause by calling people's opinions stupid. That's usually the talk of those on the extremes.

If something really is "stupid" it is usually pretty easy to say why. People like Kactuz and DB, and I to a lesser extent, have formed a view of Islam based in large part, about reading its texts. That kind of study doesn't come from an unwillingness to learn. If you have something enlightening to share, please share it

This topic is a nice place to practise English for Australian citizens already.

If Arabs of Palestine had so baaaaaaaaadly been treated in Israel, why Egyptian Border Guard kills regularly Sudanese refugees trying to escape a brotherly land of Egypt, making it into Israel

I am sorry. I thought that the statement, Islam is a religion of hate, was the ramblings of an uneducated zealot. It seems that it was my statement that was uneducated. However, I still cannot accept that people will follow a religion based on hate.

Maybe the religion has evolved far beyond its founding principles? I am throwing suggestions out there because I have an emotional response to the idea that a large portion of the world's population prescribe to a religion of hate.

Is that what you are saying? Or is it that many muslims are ignorant to what Islam's founding principles are, and if so, how can they be prescribing to this hateful religion if they do not know of it's malevolent beginnings. Is it possible that today's Islam in many people's minds is far divorced from the Islam you speak of?

P.S Kudos to self-learning.