Kaktuz,

Optimism is just hope. What is life without hope?

You're obviously an intelligent guy, more intelligent than DEMOS perhaps, so why not try something different. Trying to see things from other people's point of view is something I do. Over time that has proven quite enlightening to me. This thread was my challenge for other people to give that exercise a try.

You obviously have strong and hostile views on Islam which you don't want to let go. Frankly, I share some of your thoughts on that issue, but try, just as an exercise, to make an argument against the Israeli's on behalf of those Palestinian's who aren't religious. There are plenty amongst them whose fight with Israel has nothing directly to do with Islam. Sir, consider yourself slapped with my guantlet, which I throw at your feet!

PitBullPat,

Please stick around. It seems to me no compromise can be reached between the Israeli's and the Palestinians because there just aren't enough people who are capable of doing that. Only trouble is, there's not much point challenging someone who takes the middle ground to reverse post. ;)

David B,

Thanks for posting, though you're sounding a little less firmly aligned on this issue than you sometimes do. Had hoped to see you try to take an opposite position, but the more I think about the many posts you've previously made its clear to me you are thoroughly versed on this conflict, historical, military, practical and of course, theological. You have simply picked a side. My challenge therefore holds no lessons for you, I'm sure. Now if only we could get Marilyn to give the exercise a go. Sadly, I think such is intellectually behond people that one eyed.

I do think you are being a little fatalistic, accepting that there is no peaceful human solution. I'm not saying you are wrong, but to see such misery and not try to look for a middle ground or encourage others to do so is sad.

Anyway, thanks for posting.

the facts of israel/palestine, as i understand them, are these:

1. from the end of ww1 to 1948, palestine was ruled by britain under a league of nations mandate. in 1947, palestine was about 85% moslem, the rest mostly jewish.

2. the jews were partly living in large communal organizations known as 'kibbutz' and had created a shadow government, and a shadow army called 'haganah'.

3. from 1945 to 1948, two terrorist organizations known in the west as 'irgun' and 'stern gang' conducted violent operations against moslems and the british mandate force. these terror groups kept the haganah hands superficialy clean while murdering people in retail and wholesale numbers. irgun and stern gang were incorporated into haganah after israel was proclaimed. their leaders later were israeli prime ministers.

4. after ww2, european jews were refugees, unwanted anywhere but the (would-be) israelis. they provided the numbers to make the jewish military a significant force. they were subsidized by american jews,who provided clandestine supply of money and guns. the british complained that their soldiers were being killed by the weapons of their nominal allies, but the american government turned a blind eye. harry truman needed the jewish vote.

5. after the brits got sick of being everyone's target and left, haganah, irgun,and stern gang drove several hundred thousand moslems out of 'israel' and repelled the attack of the surrounding moslem countries. the european "jewish problem" was solved. the middle eastern "jewish problem" was born.

6. israel got un recognition because harry truman got the jewish vote,and america owned the un in it's early days.

in my view the zionist state of israel is a bandit organization and should be subject to the sanctions program that drove the apartheid regime out of power in south africa. palestine should be reconstituted as a secular state, and the moslem refugees allowed to return to their land.

Kalin...

Yes, I dislike Islam, as you may have noticed. I have read the Quran, ahadith and other early islamic works. It took me three months to read 30plus volumes of Tabari. I spend a lot of time viewing Islamic websites.

I have found nothing that changes my opinion. I have seen only ignorance, denial and dishonesty. I am tired of correcting stupid mistakes by Muslims about their religion (Mohammad never hurt anybody, he only waged war when attacked, FGM is not Islamic, Islam does not teach hate/violence, Mohammad loved all animals, Islam teaches tolerance, there is no compulsion in religion, Islam says not to beat wives, Mohammad marriages were not about sex, Islam teaches respect for jews christians, blablabla). These things are NOT what Islams scriptures say. If you have doubts, I will be glad to provide links to Islamic sites that state that Mohammad and his men plundered, murdered, tortured, raped, enslaved and Mohammad beat his wife. Yet Muslims don't want to talk about these. Would you care to comment on this?
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/abudawud/038.sat.html#038.4348.
or this
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/019.smt.html#019.4321

I don't mind Muslims deleting my posts, but when Muslims started making threats against me and family they made an enemy. Imagine a Muslim doing that?

I view the Palestinian situation has part of the Muslim situation.
Yes, Palestinians suffer, yes there are good Muslims - but collectively Islam and Muslims are agents of misfortune, suffering and violence.

Also, the idea of viewing this though Palestinian eyes is logically meaningless. Shall I also look at the holocaust through Nazi eyes? or maybe at Srebrenica through the eyes of the Serbs? Why then don't Arabs look at the problem through the eyes of Israelis? (ie, they keep attacking us and say they want to exterminate us)

The only acceptable values are honesty and equality. Whereever Muslims dominate, they discriminate and oppress. Muslims refuse to understand simple words in their own writings.

Kalin, I have nothing against you, but Muslims need to be honest about these things. They (and we!) have a big problem, and sweet words will not solve anything.

Kactuz

Radical-Muslims-kill, moderates-make-excuses-and-blame-others.

Continuing...

A challenge?

Hummmm,

OK, I have picked up the guantlet and I see it is of good quality. Challenge accepted! Since you challenged me, I get to choose the weapons, or subjects.

To make it more interesting, I propose that we talk about each of these topics, based upon Islamic writings.

1. Mohammud's love of poetry and poets
2. the character of Mohammud as revealed in the ahadiith.
3. the medical properties of the household fly.
4. Asma bint Marwan
5. treatment of minority religions in Islamic societies.
6. Banu Al-Mustaliq
7. How many geckos does a Muslim have to kill to get an extra virgin in paradise.
8. All the women named in the Quran.
9. the happy wedding night of Safiyyah Abu Ayyub
10. translations of Surah 4.34

I have a pretty good understanding of most of these, or at least I can hold my own. I must warn you that although few people know it, this old man did the definitive study of the death of Asma Marwan. Yep, took me a month, but it was kind of fun in a morbid way, even if the word "fun" is probably not appropriate when relating to "murder."

If FH and DB can shake hands and hug each other, we can have a civil discussion also.

You take care.

John

Hi Kalin...ur welcome :)

PITBULL... I want to subject your statement about "Islam not a religion of hate" to some serious scrutiny.

1/ Wahabist Muslims "Love what Allah loves and hate what allah hates"
You might look into this statement with some google searches, and include 'Wahabism' also in your research.

2/ Sufism. (this is FH's brand :) Regarded by some Muslims (specially Wahabists) as a heretical Islam, yet, is closest to the Christian idea of seeking after a mystical and loving relationship with the Almighty. (This also explains partly the congeniality of my and FH's encounter)

3/ 'Mainstream' Muslims. They will be divided between the full spectrum of 'very enthusiastic' to 'moderate and nominal'.

It is difficult to point to any one and from an outsiders position to judge "Islam" as a faith, by them. They can fight that one out among themselves. If we know 'nice' Muslims we will say "its peaceful" if we were on the rough end of the Cronulla revenge attacks, we might think otherwise :)

Our Task, should be to examine the doctrinal underpinnings of the faith on the following levels.

1/ Dogma (Quran/Hadith/consensus of the schools of jurisprudence)
2/ History
3/ Behaviour (Mohammad and his companions)

Number 3 is quite important, because Mohammad is held up as the 'best of all mankind' .. I'll leave it to you to research that one.

I've done the hard yards, and have formed certain and by now well known conclusions.(You Pittbull, as a newby will not have seen them but you can trace back some of my 3600 odd posts :)

TOPIC. Re Israel/Palestinians. I choose a side, because of theological reasons. My support is limited to 'moral' not material. Choosing a side does not mean by default 'hatred' for Palestinians any more than being an allied soldier during WWII meant a hatred for all Germans (which it did not)
It means.. you have a duty, and so do they.

Although my input in this discussion was beyond a KALIN1’s mark, I am stipulated to say that everything is relative and the Arabs are not in rush to leave a Jewish state as Iranian Jews are forbidden from leaving the Islamic Republic despite cultural, religious and political possibilities broader than wherever in neighboring Muslim states the Jews exercise.