Just a little experiment I thought some might like to try, for the sake bringing some of the regular contributors to a closer understanding of each other.

I challenge all posters to try addressing the question from the other 'side's' point of view, rather than their own.

Really YES, Kalin1 - the question remains whether the Jews in Australia are treated much better than Palestinians (even the Arabs of Palestine) in the Arab/Muslim world.

Sorry MichaelK, but I don't understand what you are getting at.

I'm not aware of any real issues about the way Jews are treated in Australia and therefore cannot see what your getting at with your comparison with the way Palestinians are treated in Arab countries. Seems you are addressing a whole different and far less significant question.

Care to elaborate?

of course it is. god gave us this land. best title you can have. arab/moslems must get out of the way of owners, and if they cause trouble, well, a quick bullet to the head straightens them out.

it's too bad they got in the habit of camping on our land while we were unavoidably detained getting back here after getting chucked out by the romans, but not our fault. this is jewish land, and this is a jewish atom bomb. and if the neighbors don't quiet down soon we will have to quieten them.

Demos,

Thanks for the effort, but the hard part is to do it without simply being sarcastic. I know you're smart from your many posts so I'm sure you could make a serious attempt if you want to. Please do.

Try and address the current situation. Make the best argument you can as to why Israeli's are justified in putting up walls, "settling" disputed land, and arresting people merely suspected of anti-israeli activities - children even.

I'd love to see someone like Leigh, DB or White Warlock try arguing the other side too.

Being able to look at look at something from more than one perspective is can do. People who can't are either stupid, or in denial.

Security. That is how Israel's actions can be justified. If I were in a situation where there was a possibility someone would blow me up I would be putting up walls and arresting people. I would also be trying to contol as much disputed territory as possible, to take control away from those who may want to, or in some cases explicitly state they want to harm me.

I think that fear is what fuels the crises in Israel/Palestine. I think that both sides have alot to fear. If I was an Israeli i would be fearful of being blown up, of losing the security that a jewish state provides especially after the holocaust, of my hostile neighbours. I cannot imagine the insecurity of living somehwere where all my neighbours want me gone and my allies, as powerful as they are, are on the other side of the world.

Similarly, I cannot imagine the insecurity felt by Palestinians who have lost their homes and have to fight to maintain their identity and dignity, whose 'allies' (other Arab states) also treat them like lepers.

I think that looking for justifications for either sides past actions is missing the point. For any kind of sustainable peace to emerge out of this both parties must try and put aside fear and animosity to work towards a cooperative future. It is easier said then done I appreciate, but lets face it, the Palestinians are not going anywhere and neither are the Israelis.

That is
”I'm not aware of any real issues about the way Jews are treated in Australia and therefore cannot see what your getting at with your comparison with the way Palestinians are treated in Arab countries”
why this rhetoric topic of Palestinians in Israel, KALIN1, exists in this Forum.

By a way, both the Arabs and Jews of Israel are Palestinians if the live in Israel or even much more definitely are – if they were in-Palestine-born.

Israel, as known, was reinstated just in a part of Palestine at the time.

Kalin1, you say "closer understanding"? You, sir, are an optimist.

Here are my two pennies:
1. It is a matter of physics. Two objects cannot occupy the same space at the same time.
2. The Israelis are doing a fairly good job in a very difficult situation. The Muslims attack, the jews respond, the palestians yell "oppression", and it starts all over again. Actually, this oppression benefits Muslims in that it gives them a cause.
3. The Muslims and Palestinians don't want peace. They are consumed by hate. They want Jews gone, dead gone. If Israel were defeated, I have no doubt that Muslims would murder every man, woman and child there.
4. Forget 'right of return'. The fact is that for every palestinian exiled, a jew in the middle east was also displaced. Before WW2 jewish communities in Egypt, Morrocos, Syria, Iraque, Iran were numbered in hundreds of thousands. Israel took them in. Nobody wants the Palestinians. They have been expelled from Kuwait, Jordan and other places. Muslim governments use their suffering to distract from their own vile doings.
5. As Golda Meir said: I can forgive the Palestinians for what they do to us, I cannot forgive them for what they make us do to them.
6. There is no hope for peace. See items above.
7. Most of Palestinian suffering is their own fault: corrupt, vile governments (Arafat), support for terror (Hamas) and Islam (hate and violence).
8. At least the Muslims hate the jews more than us (gentiles, non-Muslims). Even if there were no Israel, Muslims would still hate and attack us because that is that Allah/Mohammad says to do.
9. I wish both jews and Muslims would find some distant planet and take their fight there. Leave the rest of us alone.
10. On the other hand, if DB is right, the Muslims are attacking God's chosen people, doing the work of the devil. Not a nice thought.
11. I stand with Israel against Islamic hate and violence. In fact, I stand with anybody that tells the truth about the vile ideology of Islam.

Kactuz

Kalin, they're both on the other side already. Enemies of decency and sanity. Put the UN HQ in Jerusalem, make it the world city and peace will reign. Secular righteousness will triumph and good will be done.

Hi Kalin... and welcome Pit Bull Pat.. a newby by the looks of things :)

Pat said:

"Security. That is how Israel's actions can be justified"

For me, it is not a 'YES/NO' issue.. because clearly some Israeli actions, just like that of the Arabs, are immoral, and horrible. I think specifically of one incident I saw in a vid on youtube, where Israeli soldiers were 'advancing quickly down a road', and a hapless palestinian who did not look in the least like a combatant, was shot on the spot by a passing Israeli,even when he was in a submissive posture.

But each side can make a long list of such things. The real issue to me is as Pat said "Security"..but if we can add "with Justice" that would be the preferred option.

PROBLEMS. Sadly, the very existence of Isreal in any form is not acceptable to certain significant elements among the Muslims/Arabs.
If these elements were minor and of little import, we could dismiss them as meaningless, but they are not.

1/ Hamas Charter. Part III article 11

2/ External Influences.

a) Economic. Any trouble spot will always have a 'proxy' aspect. Iran, Syria, Hezbollah, USA, France, Russia etc etc..all have interests which they want to advance or protect in that area.
b) Religious: "Religious Zionism"

3/ Israeli Hawks/Doves. As with every political spectrum, there are extremes.

4/ History. Demos alluded to the Roman exile of Jews in the past, quite true. The question is, on what grounds is this imperialistic crime of history addressed, and at what human cost ?

CONCLUSION.
Clearly, Israel is both right and wrong, and the degree that we attribute of each will depend on our own background- theological and ethno religious. The one thing which is for certain, we will not agree on all matters due to this.
The important thing for Australia, is to adopt a "position" and take a side. From there, we can determine who are our 'friends' and who are our 'enemies'.. thats life. Picking a side does not mean we do so uncritically

So, according to palimpset, destroy and rule: “Put the UN HQ in Jerusalem, make it the world city and peace will reign. Secular righteousness will triumph and good will be done”.

I dare remind Israel was reinstated, as a place the Jews to be at home-and Jerusalem is a significant place to nullify city’s belonging to the Jewish state

Yes I am a newbie, thanks for the welcome.

I do not think that picking a side will, no matter how well thought out it is, help on this issue. Both sides are as bad as each other and unless anyone cares to work it out through a case by case basis both have equally treated each other unjustly. So why pick a side. I think that would only exacerbate the issue and does. I think it would feel threatening for a Paelstinians to know that the major world power (US) is unequivocally on Israel's side. That would make me want to fight longer and harder for my home.

What I believe needs to happen is that the fuel that feeds this conflict must be removed. If Israel could stop attacking Palestinians I don't think a significant number of Palestinians would join Hamas. If people felt secure I do not think that they would blow themselves up for Hamas. Similarly if Palestine stopped attacking Israel then there would be no assasinations, no attacks with helicopter gunships and no concrete wall.

What the International community needs to do is to continue to help both Israel and Palestine to foster an environment where negotiations can take place.

P.S I think that the debate on this issue is forgetting a large segment of the Israel and Palestinian population. Those who do not hate the other, those who do not make the media because they're not 'news worthy', those who are pushed into either camp out of fear for their own security.

P.P.S I cannot emphasise strongly enough how much I disagree with the comment that Islam is a religion of hate. What a bloody stupid thing to say.

Kaktuz,

Optimism is just hope. What is life without hope?

You're obviously an intelligent guy, more intelligent than DEMOS perhaps, so why not try something different. Trying to see things from other people's point of view is something I do. Over time that has proven quite enlightening to me. This thread was my challenge for other people to give that exercise a try.

You obviously have strong and hostile views on Islam which you don't want to let go. Frankly, I share some of your thoughts on that issue, but try, just as an exercise, to make an argument against the Israeli's on behalf of those Palestinian's who aren't religious. There are plenty amongst them whose fight with Israel has nothing directly to do with Islam. Sir, consider yourself slapped with my guantlet, which I throw at your feet!

PitBullPat,

Please stick around. It seems to me no compromise can be reached between the Israeli's and the Palestinians because there just aren't enough people who are capable of doing that. Only trouble is, there's not much point challenging someone who takes the middle ground to reverse post. ;)

David B,

Thanks for posting, though you're sounding a little less firmly aligned on this issue than you sometimes do. Had hoped to see you try to take an opposite position, but the more I think about the many posts you've previously made its clear to me you are thoroughly versed on this conflict, historical, military, practical and of course, theological. You have simply picked a side. My challenge therefore holds no lessons for you, I'm sure. Now if only we could get Marilyn to give the exercise a go. Sadly, I think such is intellectually behond people that one eyed.

I do think you are being a little fatalistic, accepting that there is no peaceful human solution. I'm not saying you are wrong, but to see such misery and not try to look for a middle ground or encourage others to do so is sad.

Anyway, thanks for posting.

the facts of israel/palestine, as i understand them, are these:

1. from the end of ww1 to 1948, palestine was ruled by britain under a league of nations mandate. in 1947, palestine was about 85% moslem, the rest mostly jewish.

2. the jews were partly living in large communal organizations known as 'kibbutz' and had created a shadow government, and a shadow army called 'haganah'.

3. from 1945 to 1948, two terrorist organizations known in the west as 'irgun' and 'stern gang' conducted violent operations against moslems and the british mandate force. these terror groups kept the haganah hands superficialy clean while murdering people in retail and wholesale numbers. irgun and stern gang were incorporated into haganah after israel was proclaimed. their leaders later were israeli prime ministers.

4. after ww2, european jews were refugees, unwanted anywhere but the (would-be) israelis. they provided the numbers to make the jewish military a significant force. they were subsidized by american jews,who provided clandestine supply of money and guns. the british complained that their soldiers were being killed by the weapons of their nominal allies, but the american government turned a blind eye. harry truman needed the jewish vote.

5. after the brits got sick of being everyone's target and left, haganah, irgun,and stern gang drove several hundred thousand moslems out of 'israel' and repelled the attack of the surrounding moslem countries. the european "jewish problem" was solved. the middle eastern "jewish problem" was born.

6. israel got un recognition because harry truman got the jewish vote,and america owned the un in it's early days.

in my view the zionist state of israel is a bandit organization and should be subject to the sanctions program that drove the apartheid regime out of power in south africa. palestine should be reconstituted as a secular state, and the moslem refugees allowed to return to their land.

Kalin...

Yes, I dislike Islam, as you may have noticed. I have read the Quran, ahadith and other early islamic works. It took me three months to read 30plus volumes of Tabari. I spend a lot of time viewing Islamic websites.

I have found nothing that changes my opinion. I have seen only ignorance, denial and dishonesty. I am tired of correcting stupid mistakes by Muslims about their religion (Mohammad never hurt anybody, he only waged war when attacked, FGM is not Islamic, Islam does not teach hate/violence, Mohammad loved all animals, Islam teaches tolerance, there is no compulsion in religion, Islam says not to beat wives, Mohammad marriages were not about sex, Islam teaches respect for jews christians, blablabla). These things are NOT what Islams scriptures say. If you have doubts, I will be glad to provide links to Islamic sites that state that Mohammad and his men plundered, murdered, tortured, raped, enslaved and Mohammad beat his wife. Yet Muslims don't want to talk about these. Would you care to comment on this?
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/abudawud/038.sat.html#038.4348.
or this
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/019.smt.html#019.4321

I don't mind Muslims deleting my posts, but when Muslims started making threats against me and family they made an enemy. Imagine a Muslim doing that?

I view the Palestinian situation has part of the Muslim situation.
Yes, Palestinians suffer, yes there are good Muslims - but collectively Islam and Muslims are agents of misfortune, suffering and violence.

Also, the idea of viewing this though Palestinian eyes is logically meaningless. Shall I also look at the holocaust through Nazi eyes? or maybe at Srebrenica through the eyes of the Serbs? Why then don't Arabs look at the problem through the eyes of Israelis? (ie, they keep attacking us and say they want to exterminate us)

The only acceptable values are honesty and equality. Whereever Muslims dominate, they discriminate and oppress. Muslims refuse to understand simple words in their own writings.

Kalin, I have nothing against you, but Muslims need to be honest about these things. They (and we!) have a big problem, and sweet words will not solve anything.

Kactuz

Radical-Muslims-kill, moderates-make-excuses-and-blame-others.

Continuing...

A challenge?

Hummmm,

OK, I have picked up the guantlet and I see it is of good quality. Challenge accepted! Since you challenged me, I get to choose the weapons, or subjects.

To make it more interesting, I propose that we talk about each of these topics, based upon Islamic writings.

1. Mohammud's love of poetry and poets
2. the character of Mohammud as revealed in the ahadiith.
3. the medical properties of the household fly.
4. Asma bint Marwan
5. treatment of minority religions in Islamic societies.
6. Banu Al-Mustaliq
7. How many geckos does a Muslim have to kill to get an extra virgin in paradise.
8. All the women named in the Quran.
9. the happy wedding night of Safiyyah Abu Ayyub
10. translations of Surah 4.34

I have a pretty good understanding of most of these, or at least I can hold my own. I must warn you that although few people know it, this old man did the definitive study of the death of Asma Marwan. Yep, took me a month, but it was kind of fun in a morbid way, even if the word "fun" is probably not appropriate when relating to "murder."

If FH and DB can shake hands and hug each other, we can have a civil discussion also.

You take care.

John

Hi Kalin...ur welcome :)

PITBULL... I want to subject your statement about "Islam not a religion of hate" to some serious scrutiny.

1/ Wahabist Muslims "Love what Allah loves and hate what allah hates"
You might look into this statement with some google searches, and include 'Wahabism' also in your research.

2/ Sufism. (this is FH's brand :) Regarded by some Muslims (specially Wahabists) as a heretical Islam, yet, is closest to the Christian idea of seeking after a mystical and loving relationship with the Almighty. (This also explains partly the congeniality of my and FH's encounter)

3/ 'Mainstream' Muslims. They will be divided between the full spectrum of 'very enthusiastic' to 'moderate and nominal'.

It is difficult to point to any one and from an outsiders position to judge "Islam" as a faith, by them. They can fight that one out among themselves. If we know 'nice' Muslims we will say "its peaceful" if we were on the rough end of the Cronulla revenge attacks, we might think otherwise :)

Our Task, should be to examine the doctrinal underpinnings of the faith on the following levels.

1/ Dogma (Quran/Hadith/consensus of the schools of jurisprudence)
2/ History
3/ Behaviour (Mohammad and his companions)

Number 3 is quite important, because Mohammad is held up as the 'best of all mankind' .. I'll leave it to you to research that one.

I've done the hard yards, and have formed certain and by now well known conclusions.(You Pittbull, as a newby will not have seen them but you can trace back some of my 3600 odd posts :)

TOPIC. Re Israel/Palestinians. I choose a side, because of theological reasons. My support is limited to 'moral' not material. Choosing a side does not mean by default 'hatred' for Palestinians any more than being an allied soldier during WWII meant a hatred for all Germans (which it did not)
It means.. you have a duty, and so do they.

Although my input in this discussion was beyond a KALIN1’s mark, I am stipulated to say that everything is relative and the Arabs are not in rush to leave a Jewish state as Iranian Jews are forbidden from leaving the Islamic Republic despite cultural, religious and political possibilities broader than wherever in neighboring Muslim states the Jews exercise.

Treatment...of various groups in Israel/Palestine.

I've just created a thread, which if approved will prove important I believe.

Title God, reaching out to Muslims...'TODAY'.

But to see just how wonderful the video truly is, you should view this one first, to establish an element of 'mood/atmosphere'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=us_HTaEvDbk&watch_response

Note the comments in this video, and how Christians are being treated by Islamists... the case of a Muslim man who became Christian... tortured, finally killed.

Is it bleak ? Is it 'the end' ? is it the end of Christianity in Palestine ? From 80% Christian to 15% Christian ?

as we often find in Scripture... "but God"... and the 'but' is found in this video.. not in 'a call to arms'...not in 'rallying superpowers against Islamists'....no.. another way. and here it is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1nBSgkkS6M&mode=related&search=

TOPIC.. Is Israel justified ? My previous posts answer that, but this one, answers the WHOLE problem, this shows how life can be when people open their hearts to the Almighty, and Christ is Lord of their lives.

In the same way that many Christians have left Palestine, yet the Kingdom of God is not weakened. Just so, the Palestinians could also emigrate and retain their dignity. We have to respond to historical forces in practical workable ways. Failure to realize this will give us continued and ongoing strife as we see in Israel/Palestine.

Kalin,
Where are you?
Well, I'll start our debate without you, with the gecko thing.

First, the hadith:
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/026.smt.html#026.5560

Muslim, Book 026, Number 5562:
'Amir b. Sa'd reported ... that Allah's Apostle commanded the killing of geckos, and he called them little noxious creatures.

Number 5564:
Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger as saying: He who killed a gecko with the first stroke for him is such and such a reward, and he who killed it with a second stroke for him is such and such reward less than the first one, and he who killed it with the third stroke for him is such and such ...

Maybe killing tiny harmless lizards is good practice for Muslims for use against infidels.

And Muslims get a reward. It doen't specifically say 'virgins', but it also doesn't say the reward is NOT an extra virgin, especially if you kill the gecko in one bold stroke.

About the ahadeeth - a few quotes on how reliable they are:

"This thorough authentication process ensures that these accounts (the Hadiths) are real, validated narrations of the sayings, actions, and tacit approvals of the Prophet Muhammad." http://thetruereligion.org/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=106

"These (hadiths) are the real explanation, interpretation, and the living example of the Prophet (...) for teachings of the Qur'an." http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/quran/

And what about the hundreds of Islamic sites that say things like this?
"The Prophet Muhammad taught mercy to all of God’s creation."
"Mistreating animals is considered a sin in Islam." "He was known for being very sympathetic and loving towards animals..." from
http://www.islamonline.net/english/introducingislam/Environment/article04.shtml

See, Kalin, I have read most of Islamic writings and I made hundreds of notes. I even scanned in some really interesting pages. Muslims don't know their own writings. Did you know that the hadith don't actually say that Mohammad was expelled from Mecca (the Hijrah), as so many Muslim believe?

So, how do you feel about geckos?

Tomorrow we will talk about the happy wedding night of Safiyyah Abu Ayyub, one of your prophet's wives, or if you want you can choose another topic.

Kactuz

The debate continues. Now about Safiyyah…

I quote from Al-Tabari (Ta'rikh al-rusul wa'l-muluk), Volume XXXI, Biographies of the prophet's Companions, page185, section2453 - Supplement, about the prophet's wives.

Quote: Safiyyah “was married to Kinanah b.al-Rabi` b.Abi al-Huqayq al-Nadari. The latter was killed in the battle of Khaybar, leaving her a widow. Ibn `Umar[al-Waqidi] - Kathir b.Zayd - al-Walid b.Rabah - Abu Hurayrah: While the Prophet was lying with Safiyyah Abu Ayyub stayed the night at his door. When he saw the Prophet in the morning he said "God is the Greatest." He had a sword with him; he said to the Prophet "O Messenger of God, this young woman had just been married, and you killed her father, her brother and her husband, so I did not trust her [not to harm] you." The Prophet laughed and said "Good."

Get that? Mohammad killed her husband (hacked to pieces), her father and brother the day before marrying Safiyyah. From her attitude, the guard was afraid that S would attack M. When the guard mentioned the vile murder, M laughs and says ‘good.’ Pathetic!

By the way, both S and Juwayriyyah were wed immediately after M killed their husbands. Doesn’t the Quran say (2:234) that widows should wait 4 months, 10 days to wed? Or is this just another special privilege for Mohammud?

Muslims cannot be honest about their prophet.

Note this post:
Did Muhammad (PBUH) Torture His Enemies? from
http://www.islamonline.net/English/In_Depth/mohamed/1424/misconception/article06.shtml

Quote: With matchless mercy, he treated his enemies. With astounding justice he instructed his companions to treat all and sundry with due respect and fairness irrespective of geographical boundaries and religious inclinations. It was the character of Muhammad to meet the persecution and torture of his enemies with pardon and tolerance. He was the most merciful person. Allah called him as “a mercy to the worlds” (Al-Anbiya’: 107).

Now, read verse 261 here:
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/052.sbt.html
Maybe hot nails in eyes, amputated limbs and dying of thirst isn’t torture.

How about a little honesty?

And Muslims say Praise-be-unto-him after this man’s name.

Tomorrow: all the women in the Quran.

Kactuz

Continuing...

Kalin, where are you? You challenged me.

Maybe you don't like my choice of material. Fine. Then you pick a topic from either the Quran and hadith. Fair? We will do one topic of yours and then one from my list.

Otherwise I will debate all 10 topics myself, one each day. It won't be very interesting (kind of like sex by yourself, I guess), but I do not back down. I spent a lot of time reading all those Islamic documents. It was mostly very boring stuff, and between just the two of us, the prose in the Quran sucks. The hadith were a little better (more action!), but I wish they would put a twelve letter limit on any Arabic name. At least the characters in the Bible have names we can actually pronounce - and remember (only one word!). I did scan quite a few pages for my records, including the page from Tabari above, about S's happy wedding night. Hey maybe having your husband, father and brother just killed turns a women on. Think about it.

Like I said, manana we will talk about all the women named in the Quran. Must be hundreds of them, right? Well, maybe less. Maybe a few dozen. We all know how Islam loves and respect women.

Be back in 24 hours.

Kactuz

John.. (Kactuz) could you email me at newlifeinhim777@yahoo.com.au
I want to discuss something with you mate.

cheers
BD

Whatever Happened to Customer service?

BD,
OK, I'll email you.

Goddess,
A rather strange name. I guess I am boring all of you. The problem is that I spent a lot of time, time that I don't have, reading dozens of Islamic books.

I do not mind the murders and violence in Islam per se, it is normal for the time and place. Consider Julius Ceasar,Alexander Magno, GenghasKhan and other greats. They were men of many talents, wisdom, daring, good deeds and bad, even humor. So was Mohammad. The problem is not even that he did so many bad things as recorded in the ahadith.

The problem is that Muslims are incapable of being honest about the basic facts of his life and message. The problem is they consider him a great example, worthy of emulation. Unless you study Islam and read commentaries on Islamic websites, you have no idea of the mentality of Muslims. It boggles the mind.

Never do you find any Muslim willing to take a hard look at the facts. This is why the terror problem will not go away. This is why 'moderates' can not, will not, change anything.

In the post above about torture or in wife beating, you would think a Muslim would add a note or small print saying 'there are instances in the traditions that seem to indicate that these did occur... bla bla bla' and try to justify the narrative. No. Only rarely will a Muslim even consider the problem, usually with some broad denial. Because I see so many errors, or outright lies, I feel that Muslims are not being honest with us. Many are probably not honest with themselves.

OK, so much for this debate. I will post the 'Women in the Quran' topic and call it off. Tis a pity - I did a really good study on Asma, checking all the sources.

Anybody want to talk about the Palestinians? Why don't we look at the Palestinian situation through the eyes of the few, persecuted Christians remaining in that region?
http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,457002,00.html

Things are going to get much worse in a few years.

Topic: All the women named in the Quran.

Here is complete a list of every female mentioned by name in the Quran:

Mary.

That is it. Done. No more. So much for the high regard Islam has for women.

I have no idea how many women are mentioned in the Bible, but it certainly is in the hundreds. As far as I remember the Quran does mention some other women, but not my name: Adam’s mate, the mother and sister of Moses, the wife of Lot, the wife of Pharoah, the Queen of Sheba - all from the Bible. No mention of Hagar/Hajar. In fact, the only reference to a specific woman in the Quran is a rather strange statement (58:1-4) about a wife that complained about being divorced from her husband because he said she was zihar (like her mother), or because his wife's rear end looks like that of her mother (“likening their backs to the backs of their mothers,” Shakir’s translation). The Quran says this is very bad thing, but if it happens you can free a slave, or fast for two months, or if you can't do that, buy lunch for 60 poor people. I quote: "Those are limits set by Allah." Rather flexible limits for saying and doing something condemned as “blasphemy and a falsehood” (Khalifa’s translation) or “iniquitous and false" (Yusuf Ali's). So for less than A$500, or 60 meals at $8+ each, this terrible sin is taken care of. Wow! Another good thing in this passage is that it clears up the confusion about motherhood: Quote: “Their mothers are the women who gave birth to them.”

Oh yes, regarding Mary the mother of Jesus. Somebody (DB?) please tell Mohammad or Allah that Mary is not part of the Trinity in Christian theology, as stated in the Quran (5:116). What kind of stupid mistake is this? She was also not the sister of Aaron (Surah 19:27, 28). That was Miriam, not Mary! Yeah, a really perfect book.

Kactuz

end of topics, unless provoked...

Kactuz,

Apologies, between work, study and kids I suddenly got very busy. Still am.

Also, your post demonstrates your wide learning on this topic, but you have somewhat missed the point of the reverse post challenge. You need to use that learning to put up some kind of argument in favour of Islam. Well that was the idea.

For the record Kactuz, 'he' definitely isn't my prophet and in fact, though I'm not as well read as you on this topic, I largely agree with your views on Islam. No need to try to convert me in that sense. 9/11 affected me very deeply and I took it upon myself to try to read the Koran, have never bothered with the Haddith's beyond what people have occationally directed me to. Managed about 2/3 of it. One thing it has over the Bible IMO is it's a short easy to read. One thing it doesn't have over the Bible - It's full of malice toward everyone who hasn't signed up to Islam.

There's also a whole stack about camels and slaves which demonstrated it really is a primitive book stapled to the geography and past from which it originated. How any intelligent person can derive faith from it hard to understand. They all seem to have taken the bit forbidding disbelief to heart so as to suspend their intellects.

It is a thoroughly human book written by men who plainly couldn't see beyond their own reality.

Your Gecko story was a bit obscure for me, but your theory that killing lizards was somehow good practice for them may be right. I guess most of the writers lived in the desert of Arabia and probably had little else to practice on. Or perhaps in their minds, unblievers were rightly compared to scaly creatures.

I'd be more interested in hearing your thoughts on your proposed topic 5, but comparing Muslim treatment of minorities with Christian treatment of minorities. Can we try that. Will try to respond in a day or so.

Demos,

Your stated understanding of history includes mostly valid facts. What it completely misses is the historical context (you don't make ANY reference to why the Israeli's were doing what they were doing). Using such selective history one could easily assert what poor victims of foreign aggression the Nazi's were. Surely a smart guy like you can be fairer than that.

Surely you don't consider young Israeli's citizens responsible for the plight of Palestinian's today. If you do, please explain in what way a 16 or 18 or 20 or even a 30 year old Israeli has caused the current state of affairs. Whether you believe the Israeli's or the Palestinian's are terrible, how can you justly blame particular individuals? If particular individuals can be blamed, should the hatred be confined to them?

Pitbull,

You say "I cannot emphasise strongly enough how much I disagree with the comment that Islam is a religion of hate. What a bloody stupid thing to say."

Why is it a stupid thing to say? Please elaborate.

As I said before, please stick around. You have taken the middle ground on this topic and the world needs more poeple to do that. But you don't advance that cause by calling people's opinions stupid. That's usually the talk of those on the extremes.

If something really is "stupid" it is usually pretty easy to say why. People like Kactuz and DB, and I to a lesser extent, have formed a view of Islam based in large part, about reading its texts. That kind of study doesn't come from an unwillingness to learn. If you have something enlightening to share, please share it

This topic is a nice place to practise English for Australian citizens already.

If Arabs of Palestine had so baaaaaaaaadly been treated in Israel, why Egyptian Border Guard kills regularly Sudanese refugees trying to escape a brotherly land of Egypt, making it into Israel

I am sorry. I thought that the statement, Islam is a religion of hate, was the ramblings of an uneducated zealot. It seems that it was my statement that was uneducated. However, I still cannot accept that people will follow a religion based on hate.

Maybe the religion has evolved far beyond its founding principles? I am throwing suggestions out there because I have an emotional response to the idea that a large portion of the world's population prescribe to a religion of hate.

Is that what you are saying? Or is it that many muslims are ignorant to what Islam's founding principles are, and if so, how can they be prescribing to this hateful religion if they do not know of it's malevolent beginnings. Is it possible that today's Islam in many people's minds is far divorced from the Islam you speak of?

P.S Kudos to self-learning.

Hello PBP,

Calling Islam a religion of hate is a little simplistic, but nor do I wish to reassure you that Islam is a peaceful religion. At best, Islam is a religion of intolerance.

Think about Jesus, Buddha, or Confucius. These icons of religious/philosophical belief were known for their wisdom, and to my knowledge spoke against voilence. Accordingly, it is not surprising that people who follow these faiths and philosophies are not generally inclined to violence.

Unfortunately, Islam's icon, Mohammed, was a conqueror of men and taught a faith that appears to have been rather preoccuppied with subverting other faiths and ensuring his follower's loyalty (it is interesting how much of the Koran is concerned with how to deal with Jews, Christians and other unbelievers). His "heroic" triumphs over his enemies involved what by modern western standards would be regarded as barbaric butchery and his writings reflect an approval of very harsh treatment for the enemies of God (Allah).

Of course, if we judge the conduct of Mohammed as a man, we can see that he had a certain 'greatness' like Caesar or Alexander, and note that his butchery and savagery merely reflected that he was a man of his times.

However, if you look upon such a man through the eyes of Islam, as a Muslim does, then you must accept that his butchery and mistreatment of his 'enemies' was Allah's will and with Allah's approval. It follows that his methods, as savage as they were, are approved by Allah. Accordingly, no one should be surprised to find Islam's followers far more inclined to violence. Islam is a religion that condones violence against non-believers. No doubt about that.

(continued)

(Continued)
Of course, as you note, not all Muslims are rabid suicide bombers. Far from it. The 'moderates' amongst the religious muslims appear to take a view that violence is only called for in quite limited circumstances - Such as when Islam itself is under attack, then even moderates will advocate violence. Such was the response to the Danish cartoons.

While a 'moderate' interpretation of the Koran is possible, given the Prophet himself did not wage unremitting war against all unbeliever's at all times, I strongly suspect any such interpretation is steeped in pragmatism. Violence against your enemies only works if you can defeat your enemies. Thus the periods of peaceful Islam often coincide with its enemies relative military strength.

Finally, I invite you to do some research. It is very hard indeed to find a passage in the New Testament which approves of voilence even in a qualified way. Christ was unambiguously against it. The Koran is a very different matter. Accordingly, no one should be surprised that anytime Muslims feel pressured by non-Muslims, they are likely to respond violently.

For the record, I consider myself a skeptical agnostic with a certain disdain for anyone who substitutes dogma for thought. I only started taking an interest in the details of Islam after 9/11. Before that I assumed, like most today, that Islam was a religion/philosophy much like all the others. The muted condemnation by muslim leaders, and (a good muslim ex-friend), of the murder of thousands of civillians on 9/11 made me wonder what made muslim's tick. What I found was very alarming.

If I'm wrong about any of this I'll be very pleased to hear it, but I've yet to hear a single convincing argument that Islam should be regarded as peaceful.

Kalin1,

Thank you for the nice tone, probably better than mine. I was at the doctor, doing doctor stuff, for almost 2 days. Those guys are worthless - to a degree. I stopped paying much attention to them years ago.

Yes, I know about reverse postings, but I never paid any attention to rules. Shame on me. Also, I think it has little practical value. I said that yes, Palestinians suffer, and then I told you my view. To do it your way, I would have to ignore facts, feelings and opinions. It would be an exercise in self-deception. Another thing that must be considered is that the "Palestine" issue is part of the "Muslim" issue. The Muslims themselves have chosen to present it this way, so the situation in Israel and the occupied lands cannot be divorced from the "Islam" problem. That makes it very easy for me, because I know Islam. I have seen the hate and violence, denial and deception that flows freely from this ideology.

I will read your post again and reply after I take care of some housework, wash the dishes, check out the cactus garden, and do other manly duties.

Hey Kalin1, for a minute there I was terrified. I thought that Goddess what mad at me. I read her comment above, and I took it as a complaint about my unending, relentless and sometimes overdone comments on Islam. I saw that she opened a topic on "Customer service" and imagined that she was complaining about things I said, or the neverending battle here on this issue by some of us (Db, FH, you, et al). Now one thing I hate is to argue with a woman, mortal or not, human or goddess. Fortunately her post about customer service is about customer service, not censorship or our rants as I initially thought.

Take care.

kactus

West Bank is predominantly Christian-so what, is a problem lesser-
""Palestine" issue is part of the "Muslim" issue" ?

SPECIAL FOR PIT BULL PAT....

Hi Pat.. I noted your comment that you cannot imagine a people following a religion based on hate.

I agree... most people will not consciously (this includes Muslims) consider that their faith is based on 'hate'...the psychology as best I can understand it is this:

1/ "I follow (name Deity)"
2/ "My Deity's rules are such and such"
3/ "It is good for all humanity if they follow my deities rules"

So far so good.

But now the crunch..

4/ Those who do not follow my deities rules should be ....(fill in the blanks according to which Deity and religion.)

That is the point, where any person needs to acquaint themselves with the doctrines, teachings, and history of the particular faith in question.

Personally, I prefer to limit that approach to the founder, and immediate circle of followers. The reason for this, is that most if not all of the major definitive aspects of that faith will have firmed up and be clear.

Rather than say too much about Faith X or Y, I recommend a study of the Christian Gospels, and as Kactuz has done, a study of the life of Mohammad and a reading of the Quran.

If you doubt that there are some serious issues which are a cause of concern, please look at Surah 9:29 and 30 of the Quran.
The sentiments expressed in those verses, are also echoed and re-affirmed in the history and oral traditions of Islam, in particular
in Hadith Muslim book 1 numbers 29, 30, 31, 32
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/001.smt.html#001.0031

and hadith Bukhari
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/056.sbt.html
Volume 4, Book 56, Number 660

Would you like it if I broke into your home, took over, told you that now "I run the show" and "This is for your own good" (whether you like it or not)
That is the meaning of the above, and I find it hard to construe that as anything but 'hate'(for my values).

While FH rejects the Hadith as 'stories' they are accepted by the major Islamic schools. (we disagree on this :)

newlifeinhim777@yahoo.com.au