A follow-up point, Not_Now.Soon.

Upon re-reading the triple-post I had just submitted, it has occurred to me that every one of my supposed instances of goalpost-shifting was nothing more than an attempt to clarify my position to you after you had misrepresented what I had said or misunderstood where I was coming from.

Take my acknowledgement of the ability of theists to critique religion, for example. There is no way that could possibly be interpreted as an attempt to shift goalposts. If one were dishonest enough, one could try to pass my acknowledgement off as an attempt to backpedal or concede some ground, but it was not even that. It was a clarification of my position in response to the incorrect assumption of yours that I was saying that only non-believers can think critically about religion:

Not_Now.Soon: “By what you've said I take it you can't think critically about religion unless you don't believe it.” (http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=8181#255679)

At no point did I say anything remotely like the above. Just because children are taught not to think critically about the religion of their parents, that does not mean they never will be able to at some point in the future. Clearly some can, and that’s why we have apostates.

You need to learn the difference between clarifying one’s position when one has been misrepresented or misunderstood, and shifting the goalposts:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts

You can see the manipulative and downright dishonest positions of believers beautifully shown by the posts of NotNowSoon and Josephus.

They can't see that scaring a child about the devil (their talking snake...lol) and hell is abuse. Scaring children is always abuse.

They can't see that indoctrination and manipulation of a child's mind based on a fairytale belief is abuse. Indoctrination and manipulation is always abuse.

They can't see that sterilizing the Bible stories so that children fall for them more easily is a form of manipulation and abuse..Their morality is seriously flawed.

Even when you point out the facts of the crimes and atrocities committed by Bible Characters they still would sell these psychopaths as Bible heroes to children.

Their indoctrination and pure deceitfulness doesn't matter to their morality. The truth means nothing!

Their modus operandi is the same as the religions that they have been hoodwinked into following. They are in the business of twisting the truth and ignoring the abuses which they condone.

This is the appalling evil nature of the believer and the zealotry they show when defending indoctrination practices.

They are simply joiners not thinkers.

The incipid manipulations of the religious should be obvious to any thinking human.

Their blind devotion to manipulating children's minds with lies and propoganda is horrendous and yet they see nothing wrong with it.

The whole Bible is anti-god and they simply don't see it.

It is simply the crutch they have been given to lean on and even when proven 100% wrong they will; not change their positions.

They are perfect proof that religious indoctrination is an evil abuse of children! They are living examples that it works brilliantly!

It's time to attack the lies of Bible heroes to destroy that concept completely!

For starters see....King David's Holocaust http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=8181#255730

AJ Philips. You don't see anything you've done as moving the goal posts? Any time I've given a counter point or explained my position you've said why it doesn't count. But you know what forget all of that.

Let's just look at one stray comment in the middle of your arguments.

[Have you stopped beating your wife?]

We're done here. If there was any point for further conversation with you, it ended with that one stay comment/ accusation/ red herring. Not that it matters but I love my wife. If we ever get lucky to have children we would love them too. There would not be this abuse that is ongoingly accused of for religous instruction. But any point, counterpoint, or denial of points that you've presented is now worthless. This last insult is where I am done.

Not only that, Not_Now.Soon.

<<You don't see anything you've done as moving the goal posts?>>

But I have explained to you in great detail why I have not moved any goalposts.

I provided you with a link explaining what it means to move goalposts. Apparently, you didn’t click on that one either. Certainly, what you say next suggests this.

<<Any time I've given a counter point or explained my position you've said why it doesn't count. But you know what forget all of that.>>

No, I haven’t forgotten that. That’s just not what moving the goalposts is. That link again:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts

If what you say misses the mark, or “goals” (e.g. by misunderstanding or misrepresenting what I’ve said), and I explain to you why that is, then no goalposts have been moved. They’re still sitting there in the same spot. You just missed them. That’s all.

For me to have moved the goalposts, you need to both address what I have actually said and meet the challenge that I’ve set. If the challenge that I have set, however, is irrational or unreasonable, then you need to explain rationally why that is.

You have done none of the above.

<<We're done here. If there was any point for further conversation with you, it ended with that one stay comment/ accusation/ red herring.>>

Um, asking someone if they have stopped beating their wife is question one asks to explain to another that the question they have asked is loaded. It's discussed in the following link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loaded_question

Dear, o' dear.

But, I can see why you would want to use that as an out. I have explained unequivocally why religious indoctrination is a form of abuse, why your god is an evil monster, and why your theology is immoral. You are yet to counter any of this.

Running off now because I used a creative (and very common, mind you) way of explaining that your question was loaded makes you appear rather silly.

You can cease with the feigned outrage now.

Op2 says, "The whole Bible is anti-god and they simply don't see it." Who is blind here, he cannot see it, only his own negative agenda. Life is meant to be lived in the positive, Christians should teach how to live to receive blessing and enhance society. Op and AJ are fixated in the negative from childhood experiences they had, their life tells a Hell of a story no one wants to hear.

Josephus fails again. All those years of wasted study just to be an indoctrinated zombie of the Church...lmao

Josephus says the facts are negative. The truth is negative. The defense of God against lies is negative...lmao

But the lying, the indoctrinating, the deceiving, and the manipulating of young minds is positive.

In Josephus' warped lack of morality it's positive to sell psychopathic liars as Bible Heroes

David lived life in the positive... He had his own holocaust and was an adulterous, phsychopathic war criminal.

Solomon was very positive...He defied God continually sleeping around with women from peoples who were forbidden by GOD!

1Kings 11:1-3 But king Solomon LOVED MANY STRANGE WOMEN, together with the daughter of Pharaoh, women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Zidonians, and Hittites;

Of the nations concerning which the LORD said unto the children of Israel, YE SHALL NOT GO INTO THEM, neither shall they come in unto you: for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods: Solomon clave unto these in love.

And he had SEVEN HUNDRED WIVES, PRINCESSES, AND THREE HUNDRED CONCUBINES: and his wives turned away his heart.

So sexual indiscretion and outright defiance of GOD where Solomon was concerned DIDN'T cost him his Kingdom as Solomon died of natural causes at about the age of 80.

And what about his dream allegedly from GOD...

1Kings 3:111-12 And God said unto him, Because thou hast asked this thing, and hast not asked for thyself long life; neither hast asked riches for thyself, nor hast asked the life of thine enemies; but hast asked for thyself understanding to discern judgment;

Behold, I have done according to thy words: lo, I have given thee a wise and an understanding heart; so that there was none like thee before thee, neither after thee shall any arise like unto thee.

Was Solomon delusional as well OR if it was GOD speaking to him in a dream is GOD really omniscient - afterall Solomon couldn't keep his pants on and GOD must have known that.

What was the rule about adultery again?