(Continued)

As for Christianity being abusive (as opposed to religion being abusive).

Parents tell their kids to believe them without reason all the time. It's the "because I said so" clause. Teachers do the same thing, though for different reasons, they teach kids what to think, how to think. What to study and how to study. But as much as that is indoctrinating the kids to think, act and study in certain ways, and conform to the standards, we don't call it indoctrination. We just call it teaching them. Telling kids what's what is not abuse, even if the parent is wrong about the information it is not abuse.

Regarding Hell. Right now we're discussing in the topic of if there is an afterlife or not. On that topic there's no real conclusion agreed on. However, unfortunately there's still two ways to look at it. Either A) God exists and an afterlife exists and therefore hell is a possibility (and can be used as a threat or a form of emotional abuse, though I've never seen that actually be used like that), or B) God doesn't exist, there is no afterlife, and when you die nothing you did will matter, because your dead (which could also be used as an emotional abuse that they will never matter. Never amount to anything.)

You see where I'm going with this I hope. Whether hell exists or not, nor whether it is being taught or not, are points to show whether abuse is occurring or whether it isn't. I'm sorry but even if a non Christian doesn't believe in hell, it's not abuse. At best it's parenting that you don't agree with. It's only abuse when abuse is really involved.

Sorry for the rant AJ Philips. I get peeved when I see these kind of ideas that cut parents down for doing their jobs as parents, hopefully being as good a parent as they know how to be. Unless there's something that's real abuse, I think respecting the parent children relationship is something more people need to do. Just my thoughts I suppose.

Most of the established religions, not the newer ones, some who developed in the 19th Century, they generally instill in children under the age of 13 that God or Jesus is a benevolent spirit or deity. He rewards moral behavior and punishes amoral or those that transgress into selfishness and crime or worse.

Actually they mean behave well in our culture or you will suffer the consequences.

Brought up a Roman Catholic, we were prejudiced against. My father forbade me taking religious knowledge classes at high school. But the school said I was to sit in the class. Even during a GCE exam. I could have passed with flying colours, as it was more about Christian history.No protestant dogma.

I could not join the girl guides as it was run by the Anglican church, and said I had to attend services. Dad said no, even though it was what he called a high church, Anglican. Not just church of England. I do not believe in abortion, although I would not forbid a girl or woman asking for one, so long as it is just a form of dangerous contraception. Anyway I married in an Anglican church, as my husband was an RAF officer and we only had Greek Orthodox Churches. But I had to undergo a civil ceremony in the Cypriot mayors office. I often wonder if I was to return there, they would arrest me for bigamy. lol.

Continued.

There are zealous Christian religions and obviously extremists. Even some orthodox Jews, teach their children the six day creation story, after all it was started by the story in the Old Testament or Hebrew Bible. They also isolate their children from joining in the culture they live in. No TV, no marrying out of the faith etc. It's a form of control, over control.

I had an old school friend Maya, who was Jewish. We met again on the internet, (after 45 years) and gee, we exchanged some really funny emails. She died suddenly on the operating theatre. I did not know and scanned a picture of her and her sister she gave me when we were in school in UK. I was shocked as it arrived the day of her funeral in Jerusalem, but they thought it was fate.

She was a liberal Jew. But she explained it is the orthodox who are most against Palestinians, Zionists. On Saturdays they don't dare drive in the Orthodox areas, but when the Palestinians are playing up they do. Although it was terrible living in Jerusalem, she had not lost that typical Jewish mothers humour, a bit sardonic, but funny.

There are religious Christians that use God and Devil, Demons to frighten and damage their children by fear of going to hell. They belong to the 15th Century to me. Anyway. One doesn't need the Bible to guide you into moral behaviour. Now people are educated, to me still believing in the six day creation is wrong.

Not necessarily, Not_Now.Soon.

<<If a parent believes something to be true it is not child abuse to teach their children their beliefs as if it is true.>>

If what the parents believe to be true is in fact true, then it would not be abuse for them to teach their children what they believe - hellfire and all. Indeed, they would have an obligation to warn their children of what awaits if they reject God.

However, for it to not be abuse, given what is at stake should they be wrong, they would also need to be able to objectively verify that what they believe is true. Until they can do this, it is abuse.

Abuse:
2.3 Use or treat in such a way as to cause damage or harm.
http://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/abuse

Teaching children to accept a belief system uncritically is damaging and harmful; instilling a fear in children to ensure they believe the way you want them to believe is damaging and harmful. Recovering from Religion is an organisation that was set up to help adult non-believers who are still affected by such abuse.

http://www.recoveringfromreligion.org

I think you are placing too much weight on intent. Some child sex abusers don’t believe they are causing any harm to the children they sexually abuse. To some, sexual contact with a child is a genuine way of showing love and affection (Michael Jackson was likely this type of offender), but that doesn’t mean that what they are doing isn’t abuse.

<<It is abuse if [parents] constantly yell at their kids … Child services shouldn't be called for that example even if as a bystander you or I think the parent was wrong.>>

Agreed. Societies need to weigh the risks and benefits of criminalising various forms of behaviour, and I think most would agree that risks of criminalising excessive yelling or religious indoctrination would outweigh the benefits.

Continued…

…Continued

<<You don't call child services to come pick up the kid and remove them for their own protection … unless there is an active abusive element going on.>>

But, hang on, you just said yourself that there were instances of abuse where we would not call the police. Now you’re relying on the fact that we don't call the police when parents indoctrinate their children into their religion to show that religious indoctrination is not child abuse?

Anyway, I think I’ve adequately shown that, by definition, religious indoctrination is a form of child abuse.

<< Parents tell their kids to believe them without reason all the time.>>

Yes, but this is generally done in situations that are either mundane, or the child’s safety depends on them accepting what their parents are telling them when they don't necessarily have the time to explain why they should. Religious belief is neither of these.

<<Regarding Hell. Right now we're discussing in the topic of if there is an afterlife or not. On that topic there's no real conclusion agreed on.>>

The existence of Hell does not have to be disproved for threats Hellfire (or even the mere mentioning of Hellfire as if it were real) to constitute abuse. The burden of proof rests with those who claim that Hell exists. Until evidence is produced, the default position is disbelief, and telling a child that such a place awaits is child abuse.

<<… or B) God doesn't exist, there is no afterlife, and when you die nothing you did will matter, because your dead (which could also be used as an emotional abuse that they will never matter. Never amount to anything.)>>

That’s a bit of a stretch. Non-religious parents don’t tell their children that they will never amount to anything because there is no afterlife. You have inserted your own religious take on what the non-existence of life after death would mean. If anything, the idea that there is no afterlife should inspire a child to make the most of the one and only life they can know they’re going to have.

OMG! NNN you are making a complete dill of yourself...

So when a teacher teaches 1 + 1 = 2 or 5 x 5 = 25 you think that is indoctrination too, but just called something else?...lmao WOW! Now I have heard everything!

Your belief that God hated the world so much that he drowned every baby in the world, in your religion, is a load of crap. That is the difference between education and indoctrination.

Your justifications are simply ridiculous.

So let's roll out a big gun that is in your Bible...

Oh LOOK! God orders heads cut off and put up on poles... REALLY?

Numbers 25:4 And THE LORD SAID unto Moses, TAKE ALL THE HEADS OF THE PEOPLE, AND HANG THEM UP BEFORE THE LORD AGAINST THE SUN, that the fierce anger of the Lord may be turned away from Israel.

If you believe the Bible is GOD's word then you have to believe this lie against GOD... SO do you believers?

It is obvious that Moses made this up and pretended that GOD said it...Oh sorry...obvious to anyone with a working brain between their ears...lmao

Of course this verse is never taught in churches and is hidden from most believers because it simply makes a mockery of a loving God/Jesus!

REMEMBER IT IS YOU PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE THESE LIES AGAINST GOD - NOT ME!

So NNN why do you believers trick kids by not showing them verses like these? What are you ashamed of?

So GOD threatens to send wild animals to kill children?

I (GOD) will also SEND WILD ANIMALS AMONG YOU< AND ROB YOU OF YOUR CHILDREN, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your high ways shall be desolate.

REALLY?And you guys actually believe the GOD you supposedly love would do this intentionally to children?...Do you?

Do you teach your kids this verse that you believe against GOD?

Your position is imbecillic NNN...lmao

Why do you believers hate God so much believing these lies against God?