Yuyutsu,

Wow, and here I thought I’d heard all the apologia for slavery in the Bible.

<<Slavery was the norm since the beginning of agrarian culture. The bible attempts to somewhat restrict whom, when and for how long can people be made slaves, that's relative to the lack on any such restrictions at that period.>>

Not really.

The extent to which the Bible restricts slavery is negated in Exodus 21:4, where a loophole is created that describes how slaveholders can trick their slaves into staying with them for the rest of their lives.

But even if you were right, so what?

We’re talking about a god who would have known just how archaic its only communication with the world was going to become, and yet, in all those pages, sill couldn’t find the space to say, “Slavery is wrong”. It would have taken a page at the most to explain just why slavery is wrong, and yet the Abrahamic god couldn’t even manage that.

What kind of warped priorities does this god have when it can find enough space in its book to condemn eating pork (Leviticus 11:7), eating shellfish (Leviticus 11:9-12), homosexuality (Leviticus 18:22), wearing clothes of mixed fabrics (Leviticus 19:19), and shaving (Leviticus 19:27), yet it couldn’t bring itself to explicitly condemn slavery?

Your defence of slavery in the Bible is immoral.

--

Joe,

Yes, 245 years! And in a country that was founded on freedom, too, unlike the countries from which your comparative figures are derived.

Look, I’m not trying to claim that the Bible is just as bad as the Qur’an (it is slightly better), nor do I want to downplay the extent of the problems in Islam. But the extent to which the Qur’an is attacked (and justifiably attacked) on OLO is, compared to the Bible, disproportionate. The Bible is not the Guide to Better Living and Civilisation-Building that it is made out to be around here.

I think some of us here need to look a bit beyond what we were all taught in Sunday School.

Hi AJ,

Coming from a communist household, I've been a happy atheist for nearly seventy years now. But I used to like some of the hymns that we sang at ISCF camps. God does have some terrific tunes.

I'm not suggesting that our moral principles come directly from the bible or any other text, but that, often more in resistance to any reactionary church teachings, the values that we are forever (and will be forever) improving have some of their roots in versions of Christian and Jewish morality.

They're not the only sources of our contemporary values - the Magna Carta and its pre-existing tribal roots in that combination of Roman, Briton and Germanic legal procedure, as well as the bitter opposition to Catholic orthodoxy of the various Protestant sects, kicked things along too. They certainly threw up and influenced the long centuries of the development of the Enlightenment, with all its twists, turns and back-tracks.

Simply give credit where it's due: our notions of morality haven't sprung up spontaneously merely out of our personal brilliance, although of course, you may be an exception.

Cheers,

Joe

//Okay, I'll take your advice and stick to pig meat: pork, bacon, ham, a wide range of sausage. And kangaroo mince as well. Yum !//

Firstly, this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcJjMnHoIBI

If you're going to go boycotting certain foods because disagreeable people eat them, you might want to bear in mind that the Nazis ate a lot of pork. And sauerkraut. Are you ready to give up sauerkraut?

It's your body and your choice what you feed it, but I think that boycotting certain foods to make a political statement is pretty darn silly.

I forgot to point out before that all vegetables are halal. Every last one of them. So any rigorously anti-halal diet will lead to malnutrition and eventual death. I can't wait to see the look on your doctor's face when you show up with the first actual case of actual scurvy he's ever seen - inflicted upon yourself because you don't want to eat fruit if those bloody towelhead tossers do.

To me, that sounds like a cross betwixt deliberate masochism and an eating disorder. There's no need to martyr yourself on the altar of nutrition, Joe: nobody cares.

Me? I just eat it if it tastes good (nutrition and cost also factor in my food purchasing choices. Politics doesn't). I'm not going to give up kebabs because they're halal any more than I'd give up pies because there's a good chance Jack the Ripper once ate a pie. Everybody eats, or they die, including the arseholes. A diet which eschews all food eaten by arseholes is starvation.

God I hate fussy eaters.

JUST EAT IT!

Hi Toni,

I've never tried sauerkraut, I don't think, and I don't intend to. Hitler probably farted, but should I give that up too ? You first :)

So what's the point of your rant about fruit and vegetables ? I certainly don't mind fruit and vegetables, provided I don't have to pay some secret commission, or stand-over money, through the sellers, to any religious organisation. But I wouldn't be surprised if some gutless chain-store was paying such bribes even on its fruit and vegetables, to get it 'Halal Certified' and then be allowed to sell it.

And let's not mention fish, if we want to avoid another rant. Although some Catholic mob probably claims a monopoly of that.

No, I'm not giving up any kind of food, just to pay off some shonk religious bodies. I'm an omnivore :)

Any chance of getting back on-topic ? The persecution of homosexuals in Muslim countries, I believe ? For the record, I think that's a vile intrusion on people's private lives: let people do whatever they like, as consenting adults.

Joe

Joe,

Certain passages in the Bible (that had to be very carefully cherry-picked, mind you) were certainly used to affirm and justify certain moral values, but to claim that they have their roots in Judaism and Christianity is inaccurate.

Judaism and Christianity got their morals (the good ones, at least) from people exercising the same faculties and moral standards that we now use to know what parts of the Bible not to follow. Heck, our primate cousins display some “Judeo-Christian” values, that’s how universal they are. “Judeo-Christian” values not only pre-date religion, they pre-date humans.

Joe, it is true that the vast majority of Christians have moved on from the archaic teachings found in the Bible, and are not out to enslave black people etc. Could it not also be possible that the vast majority of Muslims have also moved on from the barbarism taught in the Koran and are not going to kill the infidels, that's you and I. Or are you simply biased against the 1.6 billion Muslims in the world, and favor the 2.2 billion Christians?

Your continued petty demand, wanting to know if you are paying for halal meat is juvenile, you only have to make a choice buy it, or eat pork I'm sure its not halal, koshered or blessed by the Pope, so no extra coat imposed on you. Do you want to know how much extra tax you pay so Churches can pay none. No you don't. otherwise you would ask.