//I checked my pantry, and the only Halal certified product there is vegemite. Kraft sells 22 million jars of vegemite per year, so at $1,500, I just contributed a whopping 0.0068 cents to Islam.

Fair enough, but then I saw that it was Kosher...//

No animals have died to produce your Vegemite. Some quick googling reveals that even vegans agree it's vegan, and they're a fussy bunch. It's made of yeast extract, vegetables and salt.

It needs halal certification because of the yeast component; the halal certification body needs to be satisfied that the yeast extract has been processed to get rid of any alcohol. Apparently they are.

Kosher is a lot more complicated and restrictive.

http://www.kosher.org.au/section/Consumers/What%20is%20Kosher%3F

I as far as I can work out, the Kosher certification relates to whether the processing equipment is used for non-Kosher foods as well as Vegemite - if it is, that makes the vegemite non-Kosher. Unless you clean it under the supervision of a Rabbi.

Of course, even without animals being ritually slaughtered... Vegemite is made by Kraft and Kraft are owned by Phillip Morris. So if you eat Vegemite, you're supporting Big Tobacco.

Still not giving it up.

Presumably, halal and kosher foods need to be certified to be free of any pork or alcohol products, such as lard or pork fat.

To get back to the actual topic: are Australians generally concerned enough that no religious laws or legal systems be applied anywhere in Australia ? Not for any Australians ?

I'm half-expecting some on the juvenile 'Left' to say, well, gosh, Muslim law (i.e. Shari'a) is okay for Muslims, nobody else has to abide by it. Well, no, I would suggest, Australia has a national legal system and it's broad enough for everybody to work within. As well, we have a hard-fought tradition of the separation of church and state. It looks like we might have to struggle to maintain those hard-fought traditions.

So no under-age marriages, no honor killings, no genital mutilation, no inequality for women no matter how disguised. Observance of one set of laws, freedoms and obligations, for all Australians.

Isn't that what this topic is about ?

Joe

//are Australians generally concerned enough that no religious laws or legal systems be applied anywhere in Australia ? Not for any Australians ?//

Clearly not. They only seem to be concerned that no religious laws or legal systems be applied for Allah-worshipping Australians.

//As well, we have a hard-fought tradition of the separation of church and state. It looks like we might have to struggle to maintain those hard-fought traditions.//

Nah, the horse has already bolted on that one. Ever heard of the Exclusive Brethren? They're all exempt from voting, even though the AEC website says in their answer to FAQ 'Is voting compulsory?' 'Yes, under federal electoral law, it is compulsory for all eligible Australian citizens to enrol and vote in federal elections, by-elections and referendums.' Note that it does not say 'unless you believe God's law to be higher than man's, in which case you can seek and be granted an exemption on religious grounds.'

I know voting exemptions and tax loopholes and the use of religious courts for non-binding arbitration aren't as exciting and dramatic as honour killings and ritual violence. But aren't they just straw men anyway? Even if some lunatic did suggest that Muslims be given legal exemption to commit murder, he'd get shouted down immediately and put some sort of watch list. Does anybody seriously entertain the notion that Australia will wind the clock back to the 12th century at the behest of some nutter? Really?

It's all the boring, administrative and civic where religions seek - and often obtain - flexibility in the separation of church and state. And it only gets bent - Australians won't stand see it broken. The problem lies more to the extent in which they exploit that bending. Scientologists are probably the best at it at, but everybody does it, Muslim, Catholic and cult leader alike.

Those are the sort of things we have to keep our eye on, because they can so easily fly under the radar. Especially when we're distracted by the prospect of 'orrible murders and other gruesome tabloid staples.

//Presumably, halal and kosher foods need to be certified to be free of any pork or alcohol products//

No, kosher doesn't necessarily have to be alcohol free. A lot of Christian sects and Islam forbid alcohol, but interestingly Judaism - of which they are both offshoots - does not completely forbid it.

The kosher rules are complicated. But Jews are definitely allowed to drink wine. It has to be made by a Jew, be free of non-kosher ingredients, and before you open a bottle you have hop around it three times in anti-clockwise circle waving a peacock feather. Just kidding about that last bit, but yeah, kosher is really complicated. Not sure where they come down on beer or spirits. Presumably brandy would be okay, if a Jew distils it from kosher wine. Or maybe distilling is inherently non-kosher? I dunno. They're a weird mob, these Jews.

Toni,

Maybe I'm wrong, but it's not illegal NOT to enrol, but if you do, you have to vote.

Charities, such as church organisations and mosque community organisations, are exempt from tax payable on income. Those charities don't pay tax, because they are charities. Not because they are religious organisations. And are you suggesting that Christian charities don't have to pay tax, but Muslim charities do ?

Under-age 'marriage', honor killings, genital mutilation and the general oppression of women under Islam (where are you, sisters ?) are more likely to be the issues.

As Australians, Muslim women under the threat of those barbarities are entitled to the protection of Australian law. Islamic law shouldn't get a look-in. Muslim Australian women are entitled to all the benefits and opportunities available to other Australians, including women. No Muslim law should interfere with that.

I'm confident that you would agree ?

Joe

Dear Tony,

Regarding alcohol and Judaism, the idea is to avoid drinking wine that was used in Christian communion or consecrated by a Christian priest for that purpose. For everyday use, a Jew may drink alcohol that was produced by non-Jews, provided there is no reasonable suspicion that it was consecrated by another religion. For use in Jewish sacraments, the standard is higher and requires Jewish supervision, lest by drinking the wine one could be worshipping some other god. The problem is with the blessing over the grapes that is required before drinking, so non-alcoholic grape juice is in the same category. Pure beer, which is not derived from grapes, is fine but cannot be used in Jewish sacraments.

(disclaimer: I don't drink alcohol myself, but I do enjoy grape-juice and I don't check whether some priest entered the supermarket at night and maliciously consecrated the bottles)

Regarding your previous post: there is a huge principle difference between behaviour that hurts non-consenting others (such as murder) and behaviour that doesn't (such as not voting). In the former case, the offended (or potentially-offended) side is entitled to act in self-defence. I have not previously heard of the Exclusive Brethren, but I'm glad that the AEC has some good sense to quietly exempt them. Nobody should be forced to vote anyway.

God's law is indeed higher than man's, but it never sanctions violence and murder. If you see such claims then the laws in question are fake and man-made.