I've just heard that Messrs CHAN and SUKUMARAN are listed amongst the next prisoners to be executed by firing squad in Indonesia. Most of you know, that I'm against Capital Punishment per se. That said, I believe these two are amongst the worst of the drug dealers that have been apprehended in Indonesia thus far ?

CHAN the architect and planner, and SUKUMARAN the enforcer and muscle man of the group ? Neither are angels, and deserve the longest of prison sentences. SUKUMARAN a standover man of some reputation and I have no sympathy for him whatsoever. While CHAN a sneaky, nasty little 'prick' who used dull witted SUKUMARAN to do his physical bidding. However, should they be executed ? I say no, but lock 'em up for fifty years without any possibility of parole !

What do you good people say ? Am I wrong ? If so, do you believe they deserve their 'firing squad' fate ?

No, I think execution is an admission of failure.
They should be put to prison work making some government used
product, like mail bags, for the rest of their lives.
Find the most boring job for them and keep them on it for life.
The trendies of this world will call it torture.

Yeah. Imagine what must be going through their minds :(

A great waste of human potential.

And mind you, some of Asia's great business magnates raised their seed capital in a pretty similar manner... just Google the background of some of Macao's/Hong Kong's movers and shakers.

It's indonesian law so be it. You can't say they don't know the consequences. What they would get in $ outweighs the crime.

Whether these guys are 'changed' men now or not is not the issue.
The fact remains that the Indonesian law states you will be put to death if you are a drug dealer, and they were proved to be drug dealers.
The punishment still stands.

That being said, I think the firing squad execution is barbaric and outdated.
They should be killed by lethal injection.

Dear o sung wu,

I think they should have a life sentence ended by their death from natural causes. Their lawyer claims they are changed men as shown by their work in rehabilitation of other prisoners. They should be allowed to continue that work.

I would give them the same consideration they gave their intended victims, those who were likely to have their lives ruined by their drugs.

Reformed my fat you know what. They are as reformed as any outlaw, for as long as it takes them to get free.

They are a waste of space, in or out of prison, & the sooner the planet has their space the better. The only thing the Indonesians have done wrong, is they took far too long clearing this garbage off the planet.

No interest

Hasbeen, in his usual ignorance of criminal justice matters, has highlighted a point that so many calling for blood overlook:

"I would give them the same consideration they gave their intended victims..." (http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6726#204521)

The fact that the intent was to profit, not to harm others (and as far as I'm aware, always is in these situations) is overlooked when people support the death penalty in cases like these under the pretense that, "they were willing to profit from the deaths and misery of others." If the intention is to harm others, then there are far more efficient ways of going about it. People who want to harm others usually get kick out of seeing that harm done too. That’s very hard to do when selling drugs to middlemen.

Death penalty or no death penalty, I'm glad our justice system is rational enough to take such factors into consideration. Intent matters and so does the effectiveness of a penalty.

Indonesia's president has expressed his desire for a hard-line stance because of the damage drugs obviously do to Indonesia's society. However, someone apparently forgot to tell him that this does nothing to stop the problem. Because (as Chan and Sukumaran even demonstrated when they explained that they were just excited about getting to Australia and making a packet) people who do these things never think of the potential negative consequences; they only ever hyperfocus on the potential rewards. So saying that “they knew what the risks were” is also a bit naive.

Hasbeen we've seen their callous attitude toward drug users, addicts Scott Rush and Renae Lawrence were ruthlessly exploited by Sukumaran and Chan and if their conspiracy had succeeded they'd have been back in Australia exploiting more hapless junkies. These two are horrible people who according to the other members of the group threatened harm to the families of their couriers if they didn't do what they were told.

Suse,
A bullet to the heart is more merciful than lethal injection, there are some horrifying stories of the way inmates die in U.S death chambers and some states have suspended the practice as "cruel and unusual".
http://rt.com/usa/162108-ohio-moratorium-death-penalty-drugs/

The main attraction of the Leuchter euthanasia machine is the fact that it operates on a three key system, three operators insert their keys to the console to begin the execution process but an electronic system randomly activates only one of the circuits and nobody knows who has actually "pressed the button" so to speak.
The same logic is applied to firing squads:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Indonesia#Method
"Capital punishment is carried out in Indonesia by a firing squad. The prisoner blindfolded is led to a grassy area where they have an option to kneel or stand.[5] The 12 armed executioners shoot the prisoner in the chest from a range of five to ten metres.[5] Only three live bullets and the rest fire blanks.[5] If the prisoner does not die, the Commander is required to issue a final bullet to the prisoner's head.[6]"

It is murder and Indonesia will regret doing it.

Dear O Sung Wu,

Indonesia has very strict laws and the death penalty
for drug smuggling and dealing.

Anybody who
travels to countries with such laws and then
undertakes to break those laws should be aware
of the consequences. Unfortunately, these leaders
of the drug smuggling gangs were aware of the
consequences and were prepared to take the risks
endangering the other nine that were involved.

Personally I am against capital punishment and certainly
death by firing-squad. However, I don't live in
Indonesia and I don't know how big the problem
of drug-smuggling is over there.

I would prefer that these men would receive a life-sentence,
but ultimately the decision rests with Indonesia.
And it appears that it has already been made.

I'm with Foxy on this one.

I believe the death penalty is an inappropriate punishment for a country such as ours to have on the statutes.

However, I equally believe that a country has the absolute right to make the laws that its own citizens support, and that we are in no tenable position to interfere with their decision. If one of those is the death penalty for drug smuggling, so be it.

I also believe there would be reistance in this country to a similar interference with our lawmaking process, and the responsibilities that go with that.

'afternoon to you good people...

Thanks for your response's I appreciate it. BANJO, you wrote 'no interest' why on earth did you bother wasting your time at all ?

I see none of you have much sympathy for these two, and I must admit I've never dealt with them either, but a mate of mine has, and his summation of them both is pretty accurate by all accounts ? They are nasty pieces of work and deserve 'the lot' to coin a well used crim term. Neither of them 'deserve' any sympathy at all, such is the corporeality of their previous criminal antecedents.

BAZZ, I'm not sure if the Indonesian prison system has 'hard labour' or 'penal servitude' facilities within their institutions ? So your suggestion they both be 'put to work' within the prison, though a good idea, I'm not sure such facilities actually exist ?

I heard one 'talk back' caller suggest they be returned to OZ to serve a lengthy custodial sentence ? Well, to me that would represent going from one extreme to the other. The death penalty, to a life of reasonable leisure, comparatively speaking. And these two would take every advantage possible to 'run with the heavies' should the opportunity exist ? Even if their execution were to be commuted, I'm not sure if the Indonesian's would have any truck with allowing their gaols to be 'unofficially' controlled like they are here in Oz ?

Long Bay, as I've said previously, is run by the Bikie gangs, followed by the Lebanese gangs, with a few smaller Asian gangs ? Therefore if these two were to be returned to Oz, they would 'fit it' very well indeed within the existing structure. That would be a colossal joke on us, if that were to occur, and the Indonesian authorities wouldn't be too pleased either ?

I don't know of course, but I have this sense these two will be executed. If not, the new Indonesian government would lose far too much 'face' if they were seen to yield to any Aussie pressure, to spare them ?

I'm sorry JAY of MELBOURNE & SUSEONLINE...

SUSEONLINE...

You appear concerned at the preferred execution method exercised by the Indonesian government ? Saying it seemed barbaric and somewhat outdated. I agree to a certain extent it does seem cruel ? Without being too specific SUSE, but I've been 'up close and personal' with individuals who've been both severely wounded and killed outright, by small arms fire. All I can say, depending on the POA and POI death is almost instantaneous. Most officially sanctioned firing squads would use ball ammunition and receive very clear instructions where they were to aim, thus reducing the likelihood of inflicting excessive suffering. I'm sure the Indonesian F/S members would be well disciplined and appropriately trained' for such a duty ?

F.O.I JAY of MELBOURNE...There exists only one POA on the human anatomy where if hit, death would be instantaneous and completely painless. All officially trained snipers (military & police) in the West, use this POA for both strategic and tactical reasons, nothing whatsoever to do with reducing human suffering. The desired effect is apparent, described by medical doctor's as similar to 'turning off the lights'. Whether the Indonesian's deploy that POA, I don't know, but they should ?

O sung,
Yeah, you'd hope they'd put a target over his heart but the coup de grace, if needed comes seconds after the initial volley, that article about botched lethal injections talks about prisoners thrashing about and choking for almost half an hour.
The problem with lethal injection is that they can't get a doctor to participate in the mixing of the chemicals, the loading of the syringes or the setting of the IV line. I read a book about capital punishment in the U.S called "The Execution Protocol" by Stephen Trombley and there were examples not only of botched executions but prisoners in agony from having IV needles improperly inserted and chemicals injected into their muscles instead of their veins and gruesome IV cutdown procedures being performed by unqualified people on men whose veins were wrecked by prior drug use.
It's a bleak thought but I think I'd trust an Indonesian prison officer to shoot straight rather than to have one open up my leg with a scalpel looking for a vein to inject into.

Indeed JAY of MELBOURNE...

Those few Western nations who still engage in Capital Punishment have been trying for years to find a more 'humane' way of effectively killing people, without any of the usual theatrics associated with executions. So far they seem to have failed, notwithstanding their advanced technologies.

I visited the State Penitentiary, at Concord MA and viewed their so called 'death house' though not used for some time I understand. From my conversations, it was not that hard to find those willing to participate in executions ? Not being any sort of expert, I really wouldn't know.

I suppose as long as the Indonesians are properly trained, I guess their F/S is as good as anything ? Still, I'm opposed to capital punishment, however clever they may ultimately become at putting an individual to death. Long sentences, seem a better way to get the message across.

One thing I will say, many people state that capital punishment doesn't deter people from committing serious crime ? I believe capital punishment is NOT meant as a deterrence, it's meant as the 'punishment', not as a process for deterrence !

o sung wu

it would seem very wrong to execute Indonesia's and other countries drug pushers and then let these two off because they are Australian. In saying that I would hate to be the one putting the bullet in the head. Also when I look at our system (which you are well aware of) crimmnals of the highest order laugh at the stupidity of our judges. Journalist, social engineers,lawyers and judges are all guilty of allowing the rapist to reoffend, drug pushers to get off lightly and for our streets to be filled with blokes like the one that murdered/raped the abc worker and the recent islamic terrorist in Martin place.

Hi there RUNNER...

I couldn't agree with you more. Indonesia, Singapore and Malaysia are really fair dinkum with their punishments for drug traffickers. Whereas we in Australia go to the other extreme by being pathetically weak in all respects.

I must admit, the only worthwhile sentencing I've seen for awhile are some that have directly impacted upon those engaged directly in terrorist activities ? Other than that it's business as usual, the continued 'revolving door' sentencing protocol ? If there's anything that will literally dishearten working detectives, is doing a mountain of work, to put an airtight 'brief' together, only to find the crook gets a slap on the wrist, and swagger's out of court grinning ?

Musing quietly away to myself, I occasionally think if only we could magically transpose some of these smart bastards to say a Singapore jurisdiction, and see if they can maintain their utter contempt for the drug laws then ? Unfortunately reality takes over, and we again witness another example of the 'revolving door' justice system at work once more ?

It's my humble belief, it's the fiscal costs that essentially regulate our justice system ? As an example, say it costs (approximation only) about $100AUD per diem, to keep an individual incarcerated in OZ ? And in Malaysia, say it costs only $35AUD per diem to lock up the same individual ? Therefore the whole criminal justice (incarceration component at least) is predicated purely on a fiscal imperative ?

If correct, it's little wonder these S.E. Asian Nations, prefer to execute their worst offenders, rather than paying for their upkeep for years on end ? Fiscally it makes sound economic sense ?

They knew the consequences if they were caught, they gambled the death penalty against the loads of money they would have received if not caught.

They lost the bet, I have no sympathy for them.

Indonesia and other countries have real problems with drugs, they want to send the strongest possible message.

It is easy to feign look at me now I am reformed, please let me go. People are not easily fooled by that one.

o sung wu, "if correct, it's little wonder these S.E. Asian Nations, prefer to execute their worst offenders, rather than paying for their upkeep for years on end ? Fiscally it makes sound economic sense?"

That patronises SEA countries and diminishes their legal systems (and intelligence).

No, I believe they ascribe to the concept of justice where the offender should not suffer lesser losses to the losses s/he inflicted on his/her victim/s, where arguably the losses suffered by the immediate family/dependents/associates of the victim should also be factored in.

Whereas in Australia we have an inclination to forget the victims and make every attempt to excuse the offenders, for example by shifting the blame onto society. Ultimately we are the fatalists who claim that the offender is a victim of his/her circumstances and was even destined to commit the offence. We may not even see the offenders as exercising their own free choice and their own free actions.

For instance, in the thread someone is claiming that Chan and Sukumaran were 'only' focussed on their possible gain and had no thoughts for the dreadful consequences of harm and lives lost through trafficking 8kg of heroin. That is supposed to diminish the seriousness of their offence and culpability!

While I do not argue for capital punishment for Australia, I would challenge the view that a long sentence automatically results in long custody. Life is usually not life. As for coming to see the error of their ways, the numbers who re-offend make a joke of that.

Captial punishment is also an extremely expensive way of dealing with offenders
http://www.deathpenalty.org/article.php?id=42
It actually costs significantly more to execute someone than it does to give them life without parole.

OnTheBeach

Good point.

<<Whereas in Australia we have an inclination to forget the victims and make every attempt to excuse the offenders>>

And it has infested the whole of our society ...one area the pees me is with local councils. Once all parks would have freely accessible taps, bubblers and toilets. Now it appears most of these have been removed because a few have misused them. So instead of clamping down hard of the offenders, who little attempt is made to catch, they prefer to inconvenience the whole community

Jay,

The costing in your link may apply in some US States, but it doesn't apply in Indonesia.

There was mention of only some of the firing squad firing ball ammo and the rest firing blanks; why would blanks be fired?

'They knew the consequences if they were caught, they gambled the death penalty against the loads of money they would have received if not caught.'

True Phillip S however probably growing up in a country with weak judges, weak politicians and often weak parents who always threaten but never carry out they could be forgiven for thinking the INdonesian Government is the same.

Just look at our atrocious State education system where bullying is suppose to be the big no no of the age and kids suspended spend days playing computer games. Ingrained in consciousness of these druggies is that like weak and often gutless Australian authorities. The crims are always fed the line by the social engineers that they are the victims

runner - It was reasonably common in the media etc what would happen in relation to drugs and Indonesia, I believe they knew that they would not get a slap on the wrist, they wanted the big pay-off and lost.

Corby and other cases were frequently in the news.

I have to agree that Australia for crime and punishment is a joke.

We had an example just a few days ago.
Quote "A Sudanese man accused of luring a 16-year-old girl to a stairwell where she was allegedly gang raped by six men has been granted bail in the Supreme Court.
Hassan Kugor, of Hoxton Park, is accused of being a key offender in the random attack on the teenager in a carpark stairwell at Liverpool City Library on June 21 last year.
He is charged with four counts of aggravated sexual assault in company and robbery in company and has been held on remand since his arrest by detectives from Strike Force Merom on July 22 .
On Tuesday Justice David Davies granted Mr Kugor strict bail, including the condition that he live with a family friend in Blacktown, adhere to a curfew and his father deposit $5000."

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/bail-for-gang-rape-accused-hassan-kugor-20150203-134u58.html

$5000 bail that has to be a joke, regrettably it is not.

Dear Is Mise,

Blanks are customarily fired in executions by firing squads so that those firing the guns have the possibility in their minds that they may not have fired the fatal shots.

Hi there...

DAVID F...

I've heard this notion that blank cartridge's are fired by some members of a firing squad, and other's fire live rounds ? How is this achieved ? Might not the 'felt' recoil or lack of it, send a significant message to that member ? And if in fact this practice actually happens, who loads each individual weapon ?

I believe any experienced rifleman would 'immediately' recognise whether he discharged a live round. Members of a Firing Squad would need to be both mature and experienced with military small arms, before being selected as a potential member of such a squad.

I could well be wrong, however it's my belief members of a firing squad would be carefully selected using well established criterion. Once selected the individuals would understand quite clearly his or her duties when the time came to execute the offender ? There would be very little ceremony associated with such a duty, in the interests of not prolonging the anguish. Once the religious mechanisms were completed, the offender would be quickly and securely bound, blindfolded, and immediately dispatched. I again say, this is purely my opinion only ?

Dear o sung wu,

I bow to your superior knowledge. Of course one would know whether one fired a blank or not. It sounds like an urban legend that no one bothered to check.

The firing squad or the guillotine seems more humane than lethal injection or the electric chair from what I have heard of all four types of execution.

The concern is to get them all to be aiming at the target area when the trigger is pressed. After knowledge of blank or ball ammunition is irrelevant to that.

By whose moral standard?

They made choices. they reap the rewards either way. Its the same as a choice on where to travel. Pick a lawless violent holiday spot and your chances of dying go up. Choose to join a war somewhere else and wear the outcome.

The right to life is the same as any other right. It is a gift by virtue of your society and the moral precepts underlying it. Abuse it and you risk the erosion of that right. Abuse the right and the society and it's precepts will evolve to preserve the social fabric.

All we are doing is attempting some form of personal relevance and perhaps derive a spinal rill of excitement in the presence of death. Someone elses. At least Defarge had her knitting as a diversion.

ONTHEBEACH...

You amaze me with your infinite knowledge of firing squads ? Perhaps you might like to share it with us all ?

Hi DAVID F...

Mate I don't know ? Capital punishment is an anathema to me. I've no doubt that these two deserve everything they get. Show them any form of leniency, and they'll likely take an unfair advantage of it ? But to line them both up and put a bullet through them well, I'm not so sure ?

SUKUMARAN is a real 'piece of work', standover, intimidation, terrorising those who are much less physically capable then he, well that's his bag as they say. Probably there would be many of his victims (victims of his beatings) who would probably take great delight in witnessing his execution. See the fear in his eyes for a change, watch as he empties his bowel's upon his death ? There again, I'm really not sure, so I should shut my mouth on that subject, after all he may meet his end quite bravely, only he'll know at the time ?

Hi WILLIEJAY...

I agree with you, they both rolled the dice and seemingly have now lost, and they need to pay the banker ! Personally I can't accept capital punishment as a fitting punishment, but the Indonesians claim they have a burgeoning drug problem, and this is their way of dealing with it ? I'd say, these two at least, will not get away with it ? A lesson that other potential drug traffickers should learn ? Somehow, they won't, most would prefer to run the gauntlet in the hope of getting that huge 'score'?

Back to the question: "Impending Execution of Messre CHAN & SUKUMARAN: Morally right, or Wrong ?"

I think we can only give our opinions as to whether it is morally right, or wrong. There is no universal standard of morality.

'There is no universal standard of morality.'
which means the morality of ISIS is equivelant to yours David f

Dear runner,

You have your own superstition and would like everybody else to follow it. That's one problem. Islam has the same attitude. I see no reason to think your superstition is any better than that of Islam. Your superstition has a tradition of burning people at the stake who thought differently. In my opinion you are more akin to Isis than I am in your sense of rightness and in your apparent opinion that you have a moral truth. I have the same view as Thomas Jefferson who said, "But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."

Another problem is how to live in peace with people who believe different things are right and wrong than we do. We can't always live in peace, but we can try.

One thing that will help is to recognise that those have other opinions than ours are just as convinced there are right as we are.

I would like to live in peace with you, but you don't seem to want that.

'I would like to live in peace with you, but you don't seem to want that.' don't make me laugh David f. You just hate having your worldview exposed for the fraud it is.

Dear runner,

If it can be shown to me that my worldview is a fraud I will gladly admit it.

However, calling me and my worldview names is not a reasonable way of showing that my worldview is a fraud.

What does it mean that a worldview is a fraud?

It is difficult to live in peace when one person doesn't respect the others view. I respect your right to have the views you have. However, your views seem to me to be accompanied by anger and intolerance.

However, if you can produce a reasonable argument to show my views are a fraud it will be most happy to hear it.

Back to the firing squad.
Some jurisdictions may well issue blanks to some of the squad, but the onlookers, the officer in command and the squad would know by the recoil etc., which of the squad fired blanks.
The individual soldiers would know because firing a blank and firing ball are quite distinctly felt on the shoulder.

Would the relevant authorities run the risk of the soldiers with ball rounds not aiming at the prisoner?
For this reason alone I think that blanks would not be used.

I am against the State having a legal mandate to take a life.

I have no sympathy for these two because they knew it was a gamble and they lost.......bad luck boys but that is life.

The two men they are going to shoot are not the two boys who planned and failed, and on that truism alone the sentence is not just.

Is Mise >>The individual soldiers would know because firing a blank and firing ball<<

Yes exactly Is Mise......whats the point...the executioners will know as soon as the stock recoils.....and the way the cardboard wadding of the blanks come out of the barrel is distinctive from a metal round....blanks at executions, an urban myth?

sonofgloin wrote: "The two men they are going to shoot are not the two boys who planned and failed, and on that truism alone the sentence is not just."

By that criterion any imprisonment is unjust because it is reasonable to assume that no prisoner feels the same before and after he or she is apprehended and sentenced.

I am not the same person I was when I started writing this post.

I agree with some of you when we consider the whole morality of punishing someone by taking their life ? It's often been argued the financial impost of keeping someone in gaol for the rest of their life, is prohibitive ? That may be so, however the appeal processes in most capital cases would be enormous, given that most appeals would come from the public purse ?

And what alternative do we have in a modern, enlightened society ? Jurisprudence in the United States, does demand that all capital cases require, a full judicial review ? In order that evidence of an exculpatory kind is not overlooked or mislaid ? This is necessary to ensure that an innocent person doesn't forfeit his or her life ?

That's always been the problem with capital punishment ? Any errors of law, or of fact or process, can't be rectified after the fact ? That's why the whole notion of judicially sanctioned executions, should be permanently stayed !

About five years ago I got a shocking phone call from police about a serious crime I was accused of - that I did not commit, and was found to have been lied to by a security officer to get my details.

I had to "defend" myself over the phone, and I put my foot down (as I was shocked). The police officer in question also wanted me to be interviewed at a police station (nowhere near where I lived) and expected me to attend at my own time and expense. After arguing my own case, I still had to have an interview with two police officers. I was not impressed.

The basic element of human rights does not exist (in many crime related incidents) and this includes Australia. The basic position of being "guilty until proven innocent" is worldwide. On this basis, any type of execution should be disowned because of the impacts on individuals, families, and the damage of basic credibility placed on the court system.

I know it's a popular position of many (overseas governments) to put people to death - to get election votes or to be seen to be tough on crime - but what about a case, like mine where I was innocent?

Then there are cases of infringements on human rights where people are put in prison for writing a book for example. Sounds trivial, but one person (Egyptian citizen, Mr Karam Saber) who had written a book questioning religion, (essentially known as a religious defamation) has been made to spend 5 years in prison. See: http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/egypt-writer-karam-saber-sentenced-five-years-jail-atheist-book-1451453

To all those who simply support long prison terms (unless there is very strong case for that) or the death penalty I say (no to), don't judge a book by its cover.

o sung wu,

I have no particular knowledge of the subject, a lot of information is publicly available.

It is obvious though that having been loaded by another - the officer in charge of the detail in the British tradition - blank cartridges are only undetectable by the shooter up to the point of firing. That uncertainty should assist getting all aim on target.

It helps to have an interest in history.

Also, while plenty is said about the cost of appeals in the case of capital punishment in the US, comparison also needs to be made with the publicly-funded appeals lodged by others serving lengthy sentences, which are substantial.

While I oppose capital punishment I realise that my position is very weak indeed where disgusting grubs like the two being discussed have shown complete disregard for the harm and deaths they cause to others and the threats they undoubtedly made to others around them, in particular the mules and their families, to force them to carry out their evil enterprises. It is plural 'enterprises' isn't it, because it is alleged that these serious offenders already had form.

Comparisons should also be made with State approved killing we ourselves allow and in some cases have voted for. While I support the availability of abortion for instance, it is very obvious that something is going very wrong indeed where the number of terminations is so high among women who when freely available abortion was proposed, were never imagined to be the main 'beneficiaries' of the facility.

Hi there NATHAN J...

That's a lousy experience you had at the hands of police by the sounds of it, and there's no reasonable explanation either, other than blatant intimidation. It's little wonder many of the public don't wish to co-operate with them, because of their negative attitude. If they wished to interview you at the station, they should pick you up, simple as that ? Unless they thought they'd be able to write the job off, with you as a suspect over the phone, thus not cause you the inconvenience of going to the Station, I don't know ?

Your comments concerning the possibility of these two being innocent, and being put to death, in principle is correct. But specifically, in the case of CHAN and SUKUMARAN, there's no doubt as to their guilt. And my sense is, they will be executed, as it would seem the Indonesian government are very definite about it ! The fact these two will no longer be, is a blessing for the entire community ? However, I do not resile one iota, from my position of abandoning ALL capital punishment sentences, it's as simple as that.

ONTHEBEACH...

I have no knowledge of F/S whatsoever, but this notion of 'blanks' and this 'n that, is more likely a hangover from times past ? It's my understanding that executions in Thailand were previously carried out by a light machine gun ? Now I 'think' they have the needle ?

I couldn't imagine for a moment that any member chosen for a F/S duty would be a 'shrinking violet' ? He/She would be a professional. The whole execution would be dispensed with quite quickly.

Many years ago, when I worked '4 Wheels' (ex coppers would know that term), I was introduced to a older fellow who was the last State executioner at Long Bay Gaol. He said the entire process, from cell to trapdoor, 'til the hanging, was dealt with in just over sixty seconds. Having seen the gallows in 4 Wing at Long Bay, I quite believe it.

Nathan J, so sorry to hear of your trials and tribulations with the law - I know exactly what you are talking about. I was subject to repeated false and milgnant accusations by police and other government bodies, instigated by a pair of monsters - man and wife in their sixties - who had spent years attacking those around them. I was deemed guilty despite no history of crimes, a life spent serving others, and no evidence against me. The intigators, however, had a long and documented history of destroying lives around them because...that's what they love to do. Traumatised and slandered all over the place, I am still trying to come to terms with what was done to me, complete with a heart attack under my belt. There has been no justice.

As for executing prisoners, it is nothing more than state sanctioned murder. Murder is a crime. In some countries you can be murdered for it.

Indonesia has made it quite clear.

"We will not compromise with drug syndicates
and drug dealers."

Their laws will be upheld.

A thought to consider. The two criminals who are slated to be executed in Indonesia engaged in the drug trade which profits upon a human addiction based on a weakness. James Packer who may get a casino bid in Brisbane is engaged in the gambling trade which profits upon a human addiction based on a weakness. The casinos are accompanied by a rise in bankruptcies, prostitution and other social ills. Yet gambling is legal, and it even provides revenue for the government which allows casinos. Casual gambling between friends hurts no one, but casinos are a social ill. I personally don't consider James Packer any better than the two criminals on death row in Indonesia. I don't wish for the death of any of them. To the best of my knowledge Packer has committed no crime, but I don't think he is any better than Chan & Sukumaran.

I think gambling should be legal but not casinos. I think drugs should also be legal.

Good evening to you HERENOW...

It would appear that you too had suffered badly, at the hands of police and ors. ? I'm sorry to hear that, and how it ultimately became deleterious to your personal health. More particularly, how it had (apparently) precipitated a cardiac episode? I can only hope there have been no lasting ill effects from the whole ordeal, seemingly because of the apparent 'unjustness' of it all ?

You'll not get any argument from me, concerning the ritual of judicial killing. In 2015, I would've thought the developed world would've moved on from such medieval practices, however as we all know, apparently not !

And these two CHAN and SUKUMARAN, look like being the next Aussies who've been relegated to the annals of those, who've forfeited their lives. Why, essentially for blatant stupidity, and the reckless pursuit of 'filthy lucre' ?

Surely this sorry event, will cause many a young person to pause a moment, and think twice before trying to run drugs through the Indonesian gauntlet ! A gauntlet with lethal consequences, and the prospect of facing a firing squad at the end of it ?

Good evening to you DAVID F.

An interesting juxtaposition between illegal drugs and legal gambling ? Seemingly both cause misery in some form or other, and gambling can absolutely fracture a family just as finally as illicit drugs !

I'm not sure that comparing James PACKER with Messrs CHAN & SUKUMARAN is a viable, because it's the State that determines whether something's licit or illicit, therefore any comparison between the two, is moot ! Nevertheless your reasoning is fine ? Thank you DAVID F.

o sung wu wrote: "I'm not sure that comparing James PACKER with Messrs CHAN & SUKUMARAN is a viable, because it's the State that determines whether something's licit or illicit, therefore any comparison between the two, is moot"

Dear o sung wu,

The original question you asked had to do with morality not legality. The state determines what is legal not what is moral. I did not compare the legality of Packer's acts with the legality of Chan's and Sukumaran's acts. I compared the morality.

Geoffrey Fisher, archbishop of Canterbury, said, "In a civilized society, all crimes are likely to be sins, but most sins are not and ought not to be treated as crimes. Man's ultimate responsibility is to God alone." (Excuse the reference to God. I merely cited the quote in its entirety.)

Chan and Sukumaran are convicted criminals. James Packer is not a convicted criminal, but I think he is no more moral than Chan and Sukumaran.

david f’s post highlights two additional points that I don't think were meant to be highlighted:

1) Those with the wealth and power make the rules, and;
2) for this reason (along with the media) we are so much more preoccupied with, and condemning of, street crime when we all suffer so much more, socially and economically, from corporate crimes (and casinos aren’t even committing a crime).

Similarly, I don’t know exactly to what extent drugs are a problem for Indonesia’s society (I think it’s fair to say it’s massive), but given the extent of the corruption within Indonesia’s justice system - the very justice system that is sentencing Chan and Sukumaran to death - it could be argued that Indonesia’s justice system is just as much of a contributor to their societal woes. It certainly weakens the rule of law.

Perhaps Indonesia should start putting the corrupt actors within their justice system in front of a firing squad? I’d be willing to bet that we wouldn’t be hearing the same level of cheers if they did. The extent to which people hyper-focus on street crime seems to equally be to the detriment of any concern for governmental/public service crime.

I don’t know. I wish I could just say, “Oh well, they knew what the risks were,” or, “Indonesia has spoken,” but I can’t. Whether it's the irony of the brutalising effect that capital punishment has on societies, or the blatant inconsistencies in the application of it, something about this whole saga really doesn’t sit right with me.

I think I’ll just sit back and be grateful I live in Australia.

Chan and Sukumaran are not victims. They are greedy, ruthless criminals with contempt for the law and devoid of any concern for the dreadful harm, violence and deaths known to be the direct consequences of trafficking in heroin.

Imagine the hundreds of victim impact statements, lives lost and lives changed forever, that would have been consequential to the trafficking of the 11kgs of heroin they planned for this run. Then why not do it again?

They thumbed their noses at repeated warnings from Indonesia and Australia.

They thought nothing of involving vulnerable, easily-led youths younger and more stupid than themselves, 'cleanskins' without a criminal record or drug offences, knowingly putting them in the box seat for detection and arrest, and the likely severe penalties.

There is nothing whatsoever to suggest they were unfairly death with by the Indonesian authorities and courts. The opposite is true.

It is only to be expected that their families, who are also victims of their crimes (which the two offenders would have realised when they made their decision to flout the laws) would be heartbroken. Their lawyers have a duty to pull emotional strings back home.

While I don't support capital punishment I also have to concede that if life behind bars means what it says, all of remaining life in close custody, defending the morality of that could be more problematical than the immediate end they knowingly and deliberately risked and sorely earned. But no, those who question the sentence would likely be demanding a return to Australia if commuted to a life sentence, and then a reduction in the sentence and parole ASAP.

The Indonesians are following a long established principle of justice: that the offender when finally collared and convicted should not suffer losses lesser than the losses a/he inflicted on his/her victims. In Australia we forget justice for the victims and society, and often allow the 'rights' of wicked criminals to come before the rights of the law-abiding public, putting more at risk. Any wonder that victims of crime hesitate and may not always report offences, sometimes serious, committed against them?

Onya OTB!

onthebeach is right. Chan and Sukumaran are vicious ruthless criminals. AJ Philips is also right. Those who make the money make the rules.

At one time the British government got 1/7 of their income from the opium trade. When the Chinese tried to stop that trade the British carried on the Opium Wars against China. The First Opium War was 1839–1842. The Second Opium War was 1856–1860. As a result Hong Kong became a British territory.

My grandfather admired Queen Victoria. Maybe he also admired the British martial prowess. Tony Abbott apparently might even like to return to those days.

If Chan and Sukumaran had risked their lives in fighting for the right to carry on the opium trade they might have received honours from a grateful nation. If Chan and Sukumaran had inherited several billion dollars they might be blighting many lives with a chain of casinos and be granted a state funeral like Kerry Packer.

As it is they are vicious, ruthless criminals who will probably be executed.

david f>> it is reasonable to assume that no prisoner feels the same before and after he or she is apprehended and sentenced.<<

Except the recidivists David.

Very well put, david f.

I see nothing in onthebeach's last response that contradicts anything that others have said in this thread over the last day or so.

onthebeach,

Yes, deliberately, wittingly, willingly, knowing, freely, consciously, purposely, calculatingly, voluntarily. We get it. But there's more to it than that.

As for the often-forgotten victims of crime, I have no idea what relevance they have here. Questioning the appropriateness or constructiveness of executing criminals, or the inconsistencies in the application of the death penalty (since the ideal of punishment fitting the extent of the harm caused has been raised here somewhere) doesn't necessitate forgetting victims.

There are far more constructive methods of addressing the needs of victims than more punitive sentencing too. It amazes me that those who show or feign concern for victims (to push for harsher sentencing) never seem to address the need for greater ownership over one's own conflicts, and naively think that harsher sentencing will provide victims with a greater sense of restoration.

Hi there DAVID F.

I appreciate your delineation between morality and legality and of course you're right. Being the ultimate pragmatist that I am, I do not consider anything that Mr PACKER does, as anywhere near to the criminal dimensions of CHAN and SUKUMARAN. As I've indicated earlier, I've not dealt with either of these two slugs, however a mate of mine has, and his animated descriptions of SUKUMARAN, should best be consigned, to the back bar of an inner city pub I know !

He further exclaimed how he wished he had the opportunity to see the fear in SUKUMARAN'S eyes, seconds before he's dispatched on his way to ultimate rehabilitation ! SUKUMARAN was an individual who enjoyed propagating real fear into the hearts and minds of those who might seek to oppose him. Unfortunately today, we no longer have a police 'force', it's all about providing a nice 'service', with 'customer service and delivery' set high on the executive and Ministerial agenda ?

And that's all very nice, and I thoroughly endorse such an ethos. Without public co-operation, you get nowhere ? However, I'm also a great believer of the hitherto, successful practice of, an 'iron fist' in the velvet glove approach with the slugs of our society. I suppose most who would know me might accept my perspective, being a former foundation member of the now disbanded, but highly effective, TRG ? A dedicated police squad who did generate some real fear into the minds of street thugs and standover men ! Formed after the disastrous, Motor Cycle Race Riots, at Bathurst, 30 odd years ago.

You never know, had SUKUMARAN and his kind, met up with members of the old TRG, his fortunes might not look as bleak as they do now ?

As always DAVID F, I find that your steady perspectives, do act as an effective 'brake' when some of my threads end up dripping with vengeance and malice. I suspect that is precisely the sort of baggage a 75 year old should not dwell upon in the dwindling hours of one's life.

'evening to you ONTHEBEACH...

Your most recent thread is spot on. Everything you've stated therein is correct. I too share your contemptuousness for Capital Punishment, nevertheless on this occasion it would now appear these two are about to suffer the consequences for their crime. I have absolutely no sympathy nor compassion for either, it's a case of, all their chickens have come home to roost.

That particular roost being the Firing Squad, and so be it. It's the prevailing law in Indonesia, and despite our collective repugnance for the Death Penalty per se, nevertheless it's about to be enacted, and enacted for these two, before the end of February according to the ABC Radio National, news this morning.

Beware, any and all you potential drug runners, if you're caught in most SE Asian countries, you'll suffer a similar fate to, Messrs CHAN and SUKUMARAN !

o sung wu,
Shoot the bludgers and get it over with.In our day, mine at least, we would have saved to courts the trouble. There is a lot of bad history buried in the botany Cemetery and the Malabar sand hills for far less than these two did.
Corby got away with it, not these blokes too.

G'day CHRISGAFF1000...

Somehow I don't reckon these two will get away with it. Both apparently are scheduled to be executed this month according to the Indonesian Justice Minister or AG ? Though I don't support the Death Penalty myself, from what I've heard these two are prized maggots, and deserve everything they get ? I've not dealt with either, a mate of mine has, and he describes SUKUMARAN himself as a 'real piece of work', and suggested how he wished he could attend, just to be present to see the expression in SUKUMARAN'S eyes, just prior to the big bang ! Somehow, he (my mate) should've taken early retirement I reckon ?

If this was in China instead of Indonesia & Australian politicians, etc tried to 'persuade clemency' would China protest "Stop trying to interfere in our internal affairs" [laws] . . . . Probably Yes, and following this example, Would it be worth trying to upset our biggest trading partner for a couple of known convicted drug smugglers regardless of them possibly "turning over a new leaf"? Being Australian is not some sort of "Get out of jail free" card methinks

o sung wu wrote: "I do not consider anything that Mr PACKER does, as anywhere near to the criminal dimensions of CHAN and SUKUMARAN. As I've indicated earlier,"

Dear o sung wu,

James Packer has committed no crime as far as I know so his actions have no criminal dimension at all. However, considering the many broken families, prostitutes, bankruptcies and other social ills resulting from his legal activities in my opinion he has done far more damage than Chan and Sukumaran. I am sure he would be much more pleasant company than Chan and Sukumaran, and he is probably guilty of no crime However, there is a difference between legality and morality. In my opinion his way of making money is legal and most immoral.

david f,

Having never been a gambler I wonder why anyone would put the grocery money on the pokies or on a nag, but some do.

I do know that where legal avenues of gambling are not available, SP bookies and other criminal elements become involved. When I was contracting to a federal government department for a time it became obvious that its senior industrial officer not only ran a frozen seafood business on his work time but he and others also ran a numbers game as well. All with the knowledge of the senior executive service managers, who were his customers for both. How did we the contractors know? Because meetings were interrupted for the cash transactions!

So your criticism of Packer's gambling investments has no legs at all, and in any event why don't you criticise the private stockholders, including superannuation funds?

You are jealous of his wealth and business acumen I suggest. That is the plus and minus (for some) of democracies, where freedom of speech (yay!) allows us all to see the lifestyles of the rich and famous.

What about the Housos who waste my taxes on drugs, legal and otherwise, and on their punting too?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aad7J3ICRnc

G'day there DAVID F...

I guess if we're to reduce Mr Jamie PACKER'S gambling interests down to some moral dimension, I suppose much of what you say is correct. There's a lot of domestic misery associated with gambling, drinking and smoking ? Still, each in their respective places are quite legal, and governments of all colours, derive some fiscal measure from each activity ? Still it doesn't mean it's ethical or morally correct neither.

Perhaps there's another factor that we're missing too ? Each of these 'transgressions' provide many a family with an income. An income that allows others to purchase a house, clothe, feed and educate their children, and all the other bi-products associated with driving an economy, in order that even more income can be produced ? It's somewhat cyclical I guess ? What goes round comes round, again and again ?

Still any comparisons between James PACKER and these two 'ne'er do wells' in Bali is utterly fallacious DAVID F ? But I do understand the need to occasionally 'stir the pot' as it were, in order to engender a scintilla of 'dash' into this otherwise, banal discussion ?

onthebeach wrote: You are jealous of his wealth and business acumen I suggest.

Dear onthebeach. I wouldn't mind having his wealth. However, as far as his business acumen I don't think much of it. His dad, Kerry, accumulated several billion dollars. I think James has already lost two billion of it. If I were left several billion I doubt that I would lose any. I would hire an investment to manage it and would remove my money immediately if it started to lose.

david f,

Fair enough. :)

It would be good though to explore the world at leisure and put some decent wads into charities.

Dear onthebeach,

We give to charities now. If I had more money I would give more to the same charities. I would also give some more to my many descendants. I admire my granddaughter, Diana. I sent her a check, and she never cashed it - said she wanted to make it on her own.

You can be proud of Diana. I would like to follow this discussion a little more but it would hijack the thread. Travel well.