This week a person held hostages in a café in Sydney and the result was that two good citizens died and others injured.

Similar acts have occurred in other countries thousands of time and has resulted in many thousands of dead and injured. There is one factor common to nearly all and that is the perpetrators act in the name of Islam.

It appears that an unknown percentage of Islamic persons act in an extreme way and it also appears that Islam itself is not prepared, or too scared, to isolate the extremists. By their silence they give the perpetrators protection.

Therefore we have to take some action to protect our citizrns.

The only laws liable to afford containment is to stop further muslim immigration, whether legal immigrants, illegal entrants or refugees.

With continued non-discriminatory immigration we are increasing the number of muslims in Aus and raising the risk level for a terrorist act. The beliefs and hatreds of the extremists is refreshed with every plane load of muslims that arrive.

We cannot continue to keep importing those who wish us harm.

Dear Banjo,

The latest event in Sydney was not an act of terrorism.
Nevertheless, your question is valid.

No country is more experienced with dealing with terrorism than Israel.

One thing that Israel does, is to allow those of its citizens who prove to be good to have and carry weapons. Numerous terror attacks were stopped by ordinary armed Israeli civilians (as well as soldiers on leave) who happened to be there.

Another is to destroy the houses of terrorists - it really works as a deterrent. Families of migrants (whether already in Australia or arriving together) should sign a form to the effect that if their relative is involved in terror then all their property can be confiscated and/or destroyed. If they don't sign then their relative cannot come. Many potential terrorists have reconsidered whether they can actually enjoy their 72 virgins in heaven while their families down below are homeless.

Dear Banjo,

Just posted this on another thread but is probably even more relevant here.

BTW congratulations on getting a topic up. Mine seem to escape off into the ether.

Dear Luciferase,

I certainly agree that ISIS would like to do us some damage. Leaving aside any judgement on whether we should have put half a billion dollars worth of assets into supporting the Yanks in this fight, the fact that we are so determined to drop bombs on these guys heads means that the likelihood of a response is pretty high, if they were ever able to manage it.

Australia could have forsworn direct military engagement and instead helped by arming other rebel groups, assisted the millions of displaced people, or provided logistical support. But our government has judged our ties with the US to be of a significance that direct bombing was the call. Certainly their prerogative as a ruling party in a democracy

Australians of course need to recognise that our actions have increased the risk of retaliation. Some think that risk is worth it even if purely on humanitarian grounds, and some do not but that is a different argument.

Islamic extremists, home grown or otherwise are not stabbing cops, beheading soldiers, nor laying siege to coffee shops in Brazil for instance.

What we should never do is accept the proposition that we are over there in order to keep Australia and Australians safer from the very limited capacity of ISIS to do us harm. It patently does not.

Having said that to call the brutish fool in Sydney a response by ISIS is inane. I have no doubt that Australia's continued offence against ISIS raises the risk of retaliation considerably and the authorities will have to be extra vigilant for many years to come. But in terms of a supposed ISIS blowback the false sheikh was little more that a fart, more an embarrassment to them than anything.

Hi everyone,

I agree the common factor is Islamic extremists.

We need to send a clear message to Muslims and religious extremists of Islam that this behavior won't be tolerated, but we should show compassion (and a warning) towards the general Muslim community at this point, their first real major offense here.

We shouldn't punish or impose restrictions against them atm, but use this as an opportunity to create a better system.
Make it clear that background checks will now have greater scrutiny towards those with radical views and backgrounds, who wish to enter the country.

Existing Australians with extremist religious views should be watched with greater scrutiny; not with intent to disrespect particular races or religions, but to protect the wider community.

Also because of the religious aspect of these extremists, lawmakers should work together with Islamic religious leaders (Such as those who genuinely renounced this tragedy) to develop ways of punishing lawbreakers with political or religious motivations in a manner acceptable to both Muslims and the wider community.

Banjo, I think this is a terrorist act and I disagree we should treat our problems the way Israel does.
IMO Israel deals with it's problems in a way that promotes further terrorism.

We should at this point engage in constructive dialogue that takes all sides view into account, to come to accepted understandings and make compromises within the justice system in regards to those who believe they should only be sentenced under Sharia Law.

Its better to do this now in the name of peace and unity rather than dealing with another unfortunate situation later where things might become worse.

We should treat this as an opportunity to make things better and to make further attacks less likely, rather than use it to divide people against each other more, further inflaming tensions between race and religion, and creating a situation which will lead to further attacks becoming more likely.

Also we need to look at our foreign policy and decide whether or not its it our best interests to support US foreign policy so blindly.

The fact that this guy was out on bail should be the least of our problems.
What really concerns me is that he was in possession of a gun license.
What sort of bureaucracy would allow this kind of person to have a gun license (America excluded)
Part of bail conditions for any person is to hand all guns back before release.
It is not rocket science.

Yuyutsu, what is your definition of terrorism? How can you say the Sydney siege was not a terrorist attack? The perpetrator may have been a nut case but in his mind he was acting as a Muslim terrorist and since he was Muslim and was creating terror in the minds of the hostages, he was committing a terrorist act. Don't make apologies for the Muslims, that's their responsibility and they are not doing enough.

Wikipedia defines terrorism this way: "Common definitions of terrorism refer only to those violent acts that are intended to create fear (terror); are perpetrated for a religious, political, or ideological goal; and deliberately target or disregard the safety of non-combatants."

What part of the above definition does not apply to the Sydney siege?

As I've suggested in another thread, perhaps anyone (and possibly their immediate family) who commits serious crimes (any felony, from car theft to murder) and those who are preaching hate, advocating violence in the name of religion, or recruiting mercenaries should be denied all forms of welfare assistance for life if they have been convicted.

Yuyutsu,
I dont care whether this bloke is termed a terrorist or not, it is academic. He acted in the name of Islam.

I had not considered any form of family penalty for those involved in terrorist acts, but will consider such.

Steel,
G'day its a while since we debated. ISIS is not the only Islamic group that promote terrorist acts. There are many groups and millions of individuals that favour terrorism. This bloke supposedly had 14000 followers here in Aus.

Armchair Critic,
Gee, more dialogue. So far that has yielded us nothing, especially with those who believe it is OK to lie to infidels. we need some definitive action.

Until we take a much firmer stand with Islam those that make excuses
and parrot "Islam is not terrorism" will do no more than encourage them.
Now in Germany people are marching in the streets every Monday night
protesting the creeping application of sharia law and moslem troubles.

There is no way to avoid describing the Lindt Cafe event than other
than the second Islamic assault on Australia.

Get up off your knees !

Armchair Critic, If you are going to roll over, with your gutless belly exposed, & give the garbage what they want, control of our legal system, they have already got your cowered, & they have won.

Bazz has it right, get up off your knees. You might even find you can hold your head high. Do it now, before your attitude finds you beheaded in a Muslim sea of blood.

We will only know we have it right, when Muslims are deserting Australia, & seeking asylum in a country more suited to their murderous religion. Afghanistan, or Iran would be good places for them to find what they are trying to create here in Zo.

"We will only know we have it right, when Muslims are deserting Australia, & seeking asylum in a country more suited to their murderous religion..."

I expect the lot of you will be keen to investigate the antecedents of the perpetrator of this?:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-12-19/eight-children-dead-after-stabbing-at-cairns-home/5979452

No words....

Dear Bazz,

You were very quick to defend this cretin's right to post letters to deceased soldier's families. I wanted him sanctioned but you emphatically stated;

(the)"sheik has the right to say it and even write it"

and that;

"I don't believe anyone should be prosecuted for writing such a letter"

It is people like you who have so determined to stand up for this bloke's 'rights' that need to account for themselves. What do you have to say for yourself?

@ponde, Friday, 19 December 2014 7:23:23 AM, "What really concerns me is that he was in possession of a gun license"

He didn't have a gun licence. Nor would he have been considered for one with his record.

Don't you keep up with the news? Or are you trying to make the pond more murky?

How was the grub ever allowed past Immigration to enter Australia is the question. Second, how many more like him got in and are getting in?

SteeleRedux:
WHAT ON EARTH ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT ?

NEVER SAID ANYTHING LIKE THAT !

Poirot, What is the connection you are trying to make or are you just
trying to insult us ?

I will have an attempt to understand you.
We have enough problems of our own here without bringing in all the
troubles of the Middle East, just so you can try and act high & mighty.

Get up off your knees and join the real world !

Dear Bazz,

(Oh this could be very good)

Gee that denial was pretty emphatic.

Let's imagine for a moment I am wrong. How about telling us what you think of a person who defended the rights of this fake 'sheik', the very man whose actions have caused the deaths of two innocent people in Sydney, to write those letters to the soldier's families.

Ponde,

He didn't have a firearms licence but he did have a gun.

Wonder how he got it, after all the Howard instigated National Firearms Laws* were supposed to stop nutters and others from getting their hands on guns.

*NFL are a joke as all of the States have different laws.

No, it is firearms registration that is the (expensive) joke, because criminals do not register the guns that are illegal for them to own in any event.

Other western democracies have shed the expensive white elephant gun registries that did not solve crimes and always had a heap of wrong data. As Abbott has found to his cost! However, Abbott deserved public embarrassment for trying to reinvent himself as a Howard with populist 'gun control'. 'Gun control' that does not affect criminals and did diddley squat to stop this or any other offender. One LNP PM has already ridden that wagon into the ground.

The gun registries are just for public image. Busy work that takes police resources away from detecting and collaring criminals. Honestly, where is the public benefit in setting Plod to look over the shoulder of the lawfully licensed citizens? Prospective terrorists and other criminals would be rolling on the floor, laughing.

The simple fact is after the federal government has permitted an extremist or gang member into Australia something bad is likely to happen one day. Enormous police resources will be tied up watching them.

The federal government is NOT proactive in excluding them and its immigration officials are not resourced and do not have the available regulations and decision-making powers to prevent them from one day living among us. As well, there is corruption.

As a first priority the federal government should be making the decisions of the immigration department FINAL and not open to the quick-witted and their money grubbing lawyers to work around with appeals that we the taxpayer pay for.

Dear Is Mise;

You wrote;

“Wonder how he got it, after all the Howard instigated National Firearms Laws* were supposed to stop nutters and others from getting their hands on guns.”

No, the primary reason was to get automatic and some classes of semi-automatic weaponry out of the community so that when people go off the rails for whatever reason they are not able to inflict the kind of horrific death toll such as what occurred in Port Arthur. What might have been the result if this man had a legally purchased AK47 or an automatic shotgun? Perhaps then those deaths rightly would have been laid at the feet of people like you who wanted more lax laws.

However the fact that he was able to get his hands on a weapon is of concern an perhaps indicates our gun laws may well need tightening.

Bazz,

"Poirot, What is the connection you are trying to make or are you just
trying to insult us ?

I will have an attempt to understand you.
We have enough problems of our own here without bringing in all the
troubles of the Middle East, just so you can try and act high & mighty."

Get up off your knees and join the real world !"

Erm...that report wasn't from the Middle East - it was from Cairns - today.

My point being that everyone on threads like this are almost hysterical over their perceived "Muslim" threat - and appear to pay almost no heed to the fact that "dinky-di Aussies" seem to have no trouble at all day-in and day-out unloading the most heinous violence upon each other.

Nary a word mentioned around here.....unless a Muslim is involved.

SteeleRedux,

"No, the primary reason was to get automatic and some classes of semi-automatic weaponry out of the community so that when people go off the rails for whatever reason they are not able to inflict the kind of horrific death toll such as what occurred in Port Arthur. What might have been the result if this man had a legally purchased AK47 or an automatic shotgun?"

Suggest that you do a bit of research on the subject.
Automatic firearms have been banned in all States and Territories of Australia since the 1920s.
Some States required the licencing of all firearms from around 1946.
The Howard Knee-jerk reaction required the surrender of all SEMI-automatic rifles and shot guns with a few exceptions, mainly to try to save the National Party.
Pump-action shotguns were also banned but not pump-action rifles and there are many repeating firearms that have a higher rate of fire than some semi-automatics.

Just as a matter of interest, there are antique flintlock guns circa the time of the First Fleet that can fire ten shots fully automatic and at a faster rate than an AK47.

My own personal best with a SINGLE shot rifle is 15 shots (all hits) at 50 yards/metres in 60 seconds, and electrically timed.
Impact area on a torso sized cardboard target measuring 30 cm X 60 cm (vertical) was 20 cm X 25 cm,(vertical dispersion)

Poirot this time you are just spouting garbage. The reason no one is discussing the Cairns domestic violence tragedy today, on this thread is because its got nothing to do with the topic. The murders in Cairns were not the result of terrorism or Islamic extremism.

Its interesting to note you have been very silent about the siege and unless I missed it, you haven't denounced the perpetrator. Is it because you can't blame Tony Abbott?

Hasbeen,
You misunderstand me completely.
I'm not denying he was a terrorist acting on behalf of or relation to a terrorist organisation. I'm not saying we enable Sharia Law into our justice system.
I'm not saying we make concessions or give in to the demands of individuals who represent the views of extremist religious organisations.
Not in any way.

But here are the facts.
We can't give the victims of this massacre a new chance at life, not can we bring Man Monis back to life just so that we can punish or execute him again ourselves in a manner we see fit, that brings us peace and closure.

All we can do is look at the situation for what it is and develop some kind of a plan or make changes that ultimately lead to a reduction in the likeliness of this type of event occurring again.

What steps can we take that lays out a firm warning, but does not alienate Muslim people further individually or give them reason to want to commit more attacks against us?

where are our actions now going to take us into the future??

That's why this incident should serve as a FAIR WARNING to anyone that would engage in this type of behavior, whilst also attempting to unite the community rather than further divide it.

As for the next person that chooses to do something like this, we come down on them and everyone they associate with like a ton of bricks, and imprison the whole lot of them. If a person is found to be guilty of planning or inciting attacks like this I would not oppose the death penalty.

What are you suggesting, that we abuse and spit on every Muslim person we come across, telling them they neither belong nor or are welcome here, to a point where they are so alienated they choose to leave? - And HOPE that they don't begin to resent us more?

It will come back to bite us.

Armchair Critic,

"What are you suggesting, that we abuse and spit on every Muslim person we come across, telling them they neither belong nor or are welcome here, to a point where they are so alienated they choose to leave? - And HOPE that they don't begin to resent us more?"

Splendid idea, without the abuse and spiting.
Tell them to give up the notions of Muhammad and the Koran or leave.
There is no room in modern Australia for such an extremist political movement.
Either they want to take over Australia (and the rest of the world) or they don't and if they don't then they are denying one of the main tenets of Islam.

Armchair Critic I have no doubt we are heading for Beirut type warfare in at least some of our major cities.

With that in mind, the sooner the better. The longer before it starts, the stronger the jihadists will be.

Thanks to John Howard, we will be the disarmed when it starts. With no respect for our laws, it is the Muslims who are arming themselves. A quick glance at the bikey gang wars will tell you this.

Anyone who thinks this will not happen is simply kidding themselves.

Australia has taken in & absorbed, people from all over the world. Anyone could become part of Australia, & be welcome. This will not work with these people. They definitely don't want to become part of us, they wasn't to change & rule us. Your suggestions are simply making it easier for them to do that.

Open both eyes, & see the truth.

Pardon my ignorance but, what type of weapon did this offender possess ? I've heard it was a shotgun, but what type ? I know very little about it. I must confess, I've not bothered to read the papers or watch the various TV accounts of the whole episode. And now we hear of another horrific crime in Cairns, with seven or eight children deceased ? Less than a week from Christmas ? What in Gods name is happening ?

There can not be any similarities in the criminal minds of the Cairns slayer out on bail on ICE who has no religious or political cause with the mind of Mon an ideological religious extremist and sympathizer with IS. We do not have a potential brainwashed group in society with the same mind as the Cairns knife murderer.

It is my view that all sympathizers in Australia with a people we are at war with i.e. ISIS should be monitored and if they have a propensity to criminal acts they should be incarcerated, or deported if not citizens. We did this in Australia in W.W.11 to persons sympathetic to our enemies i.e. Germany and Japan.

Hasbeen,
You said, "We will only know we have it right, when Muslims are deserting Australia, & seeking asylum in a country more suited to their murderous religion. Afghanistan, or Iran would be good places for them to find what they are trying to create here in Zo".

Now that would be a sight to see. Muslims leaving Aus for somewhere more suited for their culture. I doubt that will come to pass, but we can prevent more coming here if we had politicians with enough backbone. Unfortunatly, both major parties stick with the ideology of multiculturalism, so until that changes we are stuck. By now the current government should have officially abolished MC and stopped importing those that have shown they will not integrate. Abbott seems to want to 'run with the hares and hunt with the hounds' on most issues.

We even accept immigrants/refugees from Afghanistan where it is culturally acceptable to sexually exploit little boys and girls. The risk to our kids is enormous and I am disgusted. Recently a case was dismissed against an Afghan refugee, for attempting to steal a little girl, because of his culture.

The gun laws do not work with criminals because they have a great
incentive to own guns and the contacts to distribute them and indeed
manufacture them.
Where the gun laws are effective is in stopping events like we have
seen in US schools and domestic murders. It is one thing in anger to
pull a trigger and quite something else to cut someones throat.

Domestic murders such as we see in QLD happens all over the world in
all cultures, but what we see in Islam is a fascist theology enforced
by a religion and is dogmatically anti democratic.
Not my words, Islamic preachers say it often enough.
It is a religion at its worse engages in mass murder and genocide.
It has been practicing these policies since its formation in 650AD
and advocates its continuation.

Islam is worse than was the Nazi Party and they have been doing it longer.
An Islamic scholar said;
If the killing of apostates was banned Islam would not last.

Dear Bazz,

Err mate, I'm still here. Perhaps you missed my post.

That is okay, I'm happy to repeat the question. What would you think of a bloke who stridently defended this murder's right to send hate mail to the families of our soldiers?

Sounds like really bad manners and what was he convicted of ?
Harrisment perhaps, that is an offense.

Dear Bazz,

(Lol, just a little bit closer now my pretty)

Well it seems the capitals have disappeared.

Come on son, you will need to be a bit clearer.

Most of us get that what the murderous false sheik did in sending those letters was not just bad manners but was offensive and worthy of punishment.

My question is what do you think of a person who would forcibly advocate that this clown should have had the freedom to commit this act without sanction from our laws? To defend him to the hilt?

<<I certainly agree that ISIS would like to do us some damage…, the fact that we are so determined to drop bombs on these guys heads means that the likelihood of a response is pretty high>> [SteeleRedux, Thursday, 18 December 2014 10:04:35 PM]

This is what Steele was really wanting to say:

R-U, Rah, Rah,
R-U, Rah, Rah,
Whoo-Raa, Whoo-Raa;
ISIS Rah
Up-Stream ISIS
ISIS Up-Stream
Rah, Rah,
ISIS Rah!!

But this is what leaked out :
Naughty, naughty ISIS –but the West made them do it!

Sydney Siege - The truth About Who Is Responsible
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFpU7u06TEk

Looks like Peter Vexatious is right about lawyers and judges who allow people like Man Haron Monis to be let out on bail.

Ship of fools:
forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=16922&page=0#297474
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=16913&page=0#297370
orum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=16853&page=0#296979

SPQR
There's a clear difference between the wingnut Left position and the one put forward in the video I just now posted, the U.S didn't create ISIS or Al Nusra but they supported and enabled them via pro active means and by omission of action when it was warranted.
NATO didn't cause the problem because the inspiration for ISIS and the other groups is clearly the Koran but the people who have the power to nip it in the bud didn't act in a timely or effective manner and made things worse by exploiting the Jihadi movements to serve their own foreign policy agenda.
Maram Susli is also correct in saying that Muslims in Australia have to go on the front foot against extremism if they want a peaceful life, so given that the Left are more than willing to shut down any meeting or demonstration they don't agree using violence if necessary why aren't they lining up to shut down Hizb Ut Tahrir or the Al Furqhan centre for the benifit of their supposedly "moderate" Muslim allies?
That's a rhetorical question, the Left hate this country, they hate their own people and see Muslims as akin to pets or farm animals who can be used as needed in to subvert and embarass the government and to intimidate and frustrate ordinary Australians who speak out against the Leftist's program.

Sane woman (good to see she is a Muslim). That’s right, Jay. Why aren’t the media connecting the dots? Why the underestimation of the Muslim Brotherhood. Why the lack of analysis? And all the Leftist self loathing. Hizb Ut Tahrir seems to be banned in every country except Australia.

Western societies are being overrun by a Stepford wife or zombie like mentality. How all this is happening is beyond belief.

http://teapartyorg.ning.com/forum/topics/the-muslim-brotherhood-wolf-not-even-in-sheep-s-clothing?id=4301673%3ATopic%3A2274499&page=2

Wolves or sheep?
http://www.economist.com/node/17358784

http://swissdefenceleague.wordpress.com/2013/07/13/tariq-ramadan-a-wolf-in-sheeps-clothing/

http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/80432

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdi_Allam (relevant ex Muslim Italian journo)

These disgustingly offensive letters this MANIS character had sent to the families of deceased Veterans is clearly an offence under the Postal & Telegraphist Act (I think it's called?), or the Act that may've replaced it. But in the scheme of things, the disclosure of that offence, pales into insignificance, when you examine the seriousness of the offences for which he'd already been charged, and had subsequently been Bailed ?

Again, if police oppose Bail, there's usually a bloody good reason why. Still reluctantly, the Magistrate who gave him Bail was only acting pursuant to the old (new ??) Bail Act that has now been (again) repealed ! If Mr Greg SMITH (former AG) can sleep nights... still it's not entirely his fault either, as Cabinet would've needed to 'sign off' on his original amendments ?

If there's any point in specifying culpability (initially at least) I would suggest we look no further than Macquarie Street, as a possible starting point for this tragedy ? This individual should NOT have been admitted to Bail. Otherwise I'm buggered if I know ?

Hi BANJO...

You mention politicians ? I reckon you're right on the money. Whether it's issues concerning immigration, multiculturalism, crime, ecology, legislation of one sort or another, or parking regulations... --> --> --> it's down to our political masters. Federal, State, or Local Government they all have a hand in our lives. For our own good we're reliably informed ?

Post their election, the first time they enter the hallowed corridors of parliament or council chambers, these ordinary men and women, though clearly ambitious and driven, somehow encounter a strange transmutation, and no longer believe they need heed the entreaties or exhortations of their individual electorates.

After all they've been anointed by their 'people' in some silent endorsement for their superior insight, therefore it's only 'they' who know what's best for their 'people'. It's this belief of 'infallibility', that seemingly continues to blind us ? If not, why do we continue to return either of these 'tired', morally bankrupt, political parties to power, each election ? When all we get for our continued trust and money is more blatant dishonesty and malfeasance, for another three years ?

This bloke has the right ideas.

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4968/geert-wilders-was-right

Not exactly compiling a long list of ideas yet.

Yuyutsu suggested a couple of Israeli methods that are worth considering. I can see that the confiscation of all family assets of perpetrators would work. Make would be terrorists reconsider.

In the absence of other practical means, I will stick to my opinion of stopping further muslim immigration. If anyone thinks denying entry to more muslims is unfair, the killing of our citizens is also most unfair and not tolerated.

<<Yuyutsu suggested ...confiscation of all family assets of perpetrators would work. Make would be terrorists reconsider>>

Betya it would NOT get past the phalanx of (tax payer funded) human rights lawyers screaming "collective punishment"

SPQR,
If the Left did their job and shut down Islamic extremists with the same zeal as they attack other people whose ideas are in conflict with their own it'd never even get to the courts. Leftists are quite happy to use violence, property damage, slander and stand over tactics to try and shut down conservative Christians or right wingers, even non whites like Danny Nalliah but they won't go near radical Islamists.

Dear SPQR,

<<Betya it would NOT get past the phalanx of (tax payer funded) human rights lawyers screaming "collective punishment">>

And indeed it should not be seen as punishment, but rather as a contractual agreement. Confiscation of assets should not be imposed on family members without their prior agreement - instead, the agreement of the family to have their property confiscated if a member of their family is involved in terror, should be a condition for their relative to arrive (and themselves, if arriving together). They don't have to sign, but if they don't then their relative would not be able to enter.

Also, family members who suspect their relative may be involved in terror can be relieved of this obligation if they report in time their suspicions to the police.

Just cut off their dole payments for life, if convicted, including family members. Same should also be applied to all violent offenders and serious criminals who come from families on the dole for generations.

The learning that should be taken from the dreadful Rotherham (UK) child abuse scandal where at least 1,400 children were subjected to appalling sexual exploitation between 1997 and 2013, is that government takes huge, unnecessary risks in public safety by accepting migrants from cultures with values and traditions diametrically opposed to those of the welcoming/host country.

In Rotherham, migrants from the Kashmir region of northern India imported their toxic political system and culture.

<At least 1,400 children were subjected to appalling sexual exploitation in Rotherham between 1997 and 2013, a report has found.

Children as young as 11 were raped by multiple perpetrators, abducted, trafficked to other cities in England, beaten and intimidated, it said.

The report, commissioned by Rotherham Borough Council, revealed there had been three previous inquiries.

..Revealing details of the inquiry's findings, Prof Jay said: "It is hard to describe the appalling nature of the abuse that child victims suffered."

The inquiry team found examples of "children who had been doused in petrol and threatened with being set alight, threatened with guns, made to witness brutally violent rapes and threatened they would be next if they told anyone".>

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-28939089

It is inconceivable given the similarity in Leftist political correctness in immigration and multicultural policy that Australia's federal governments have been cavalier in introducing similar serious risks. Worse, Australia's immigration department has always been poorly resourced and skilled, and even where it rejects an application, its decision is subject to endless appeals paid for by the taxpayer.

In Australia, neither side of the federal parliament has shown any particular interest in heeding the lessons evident from the UK Rotherham scandal, or from experiences elsewhere in Europe. Obviously, political parties fear the ethnic lobby in marginal seats. -Just as Labour in the UK feared it and permitted corruption to occur in its own ranks and in civil administrations, including the police who ignored complaints rather than be labelled 'racist' for investigating.

tbc

contd..

Banjo, the crux of the problem is that the political parties are being held hostage in marginal seats by the ethnic lobby. That and the ABC misdirects a sizeable lump of the $1.4 billion it spends annually on social and political comment and programming to suit its informal editorial policy of Leftist 'Progressivism'.

The public's only recourse is to continually tip out federal governments.

Yuyutsu>> Another is to destroy the houses of terrorists - it really works as a deterrent.<<

I don’t believe the“terrorist” angle is valid onnly to terrorists yuyutsu. Sure they blow up terrorists houses, but of the houses they have destroyed since 1967 only a fraction were “terrorist” related.

Systematic generational genocide is what the Israeli destruction of homes is about.

Dear Hippie,

<<Just cut off their dole payments for life, if convicted>>

But why would they be on the dole in the first place?

I wrote time and again that the two aspects of migration - physical and social, must be separate:

While entry into the continent of Australia should be relaxed, blocking only those who pose a risk (health or criminal) to Australians, entry into Australian society (along with its economic benefits such as the dole, as well as the right to live in cities) should be restricted to those who are deemed to be assets to Australia.

OTB,
I note well what you say about Rotherham and add to that that we here in Aus accept refugees and immigrants from Afghanistan, where it is culturally and common to exploit even younger boys and girls for sexual purposes. Recently, a dad had his two kids at a sports ground and while he was concentrating on the boy an Afghan refugeetried to steal his little girl, luckily she pulled away and went to her father. The Afghan bloke was charged but was aquitted by the court as he claimed in his culture it was normal.

Obviously the risk to our kids is high, but given we know about the culture why do we accept any from Afghanistan. It is because of the stupid ideology of multiculturalism that both major parties endorse.

We simply have to change and not accept people from those groups that have shown us they will not integrate. I had hoped that by now the current government would have abolished MC and endorsed integration as the objective.

Yuyutsu,
How do you decide who's an asset and who's a liability if there's no information in the public domain about rates of welfare dependancy or criminal activity among migrants?
In Germany 70% of Lebanese migrants are on Hartz 4 relief, there have been suggestions that in Australia it's closer to 85% and that similar rates of dependance are found among Sudanese, Somalis and Afghans.
If you can be bothered, spend some time going through the criminal law lists for suburban magistrates courts:
http://www.magistratescourt.vic.gov.au/publication/daily-hearing-lists-and-efas
After a while a few patterns start to emerge, guess what? Court districts with large migrant populations such as Sunshine, Dandenong, Heidelberg and Broadmeadows are not only much busier than others but on average above 50% of the cases feature defendants with non Anglo names even though migrants and non Anglo Australians actually make up only a small fraction of the inhabitants of those areas.
When you go to the Victoria Police "My Place" site and look at crime statistics the picture is even more stark, "vibrant, multicultural" Darebin has twice the rate of most crimes as "Whitebread" Stonnington.
When you break it down even further it's clear that even the much praised 1949-1977 Southern/Eastern European migrant intake wasn't overwhelmingly beneficial given the number of Greek, Italian, Turkish and Balkan surnames on the law lists, which when you consider that the original "refugees" are at least in their sixties by now indicates a problem with subsequent generations.

Correction, the second paragraph makes no sense due to bad editing on my part.
Disregard the words "large migrant populations", there are of course no Australian suburbs with particularly large numbers of non Anglo/White inhabitants compared to the European experience. There are no communities like Koekelberg,Malmo or Bradford in this country and that makes the rates of crime in our "vibrant multicultural" suburbs even more startling because it's indicating severe problems with a very small number of people.

Terrorists and suicide bombers accept their death in action
because that makes them a martyr. They get immediate access to
paradise and their 72 virgins.

To achieve this they have to be pure.
Bury them with a pig and they will be contaminated and will not be
able to enter paradise.

Can you think of a better disincentive ?
Perhaps Monis could be wrapped in a shroud with a pig and buried at sea.

I've carefully read everybody's thoughts and opinions herein, though expressed in varying ways they all amount to the same thing ? Shock and revulsion that such a tragedy can happen here.

Still as the dust settles, and other stories of horror overtake this matter, there are those amongst us who 'CAN' make a difference. By introducing appropriate legislation that may not entirely prevent such a horror, but at least reduce the possibilities of it happening again.

Of course we all know that won't happen ? Citing our United Nations obligations toward refugees that restrain us from more thoroughly scrutinising people, people who're claiming refugee status, as they arrive at both our ports and airports ?

Rather most of our politicians, many of whom have been suitably struck down by that awful political ailment, 'Party Paralysis' simply hope it will all quietly disappear from the headlines, allowing them to inaudibly slip away, for their 'well deserved' holidays (abroad), funded entirely by the taxpayer, and will conveniently forget about this whole dreadful business ! It matters little, that the families of the two victims, will never forget this tragedy!

When most believe our politicians should act collaboratively, and in a bi-partisan way, and do something constructively, in an attempt to prevent and further criminal incidences of this kind !

I'll bet my pension, neither those in Canberra or Macquarie Street will lift a bloody finger ? Unless of course, they can manage to orchestrate or contrive, some new (fiscal) model, of extracting further taxes, dues, levies, even some excise, from us ? Telling us it's to assist to interdict these maniacs from repeating another Martin Place incident ?

Dear Jay,

<<How do you decide who's an asset and who's a liability if there's no information in the public domain about rates of welfare dependancy or criminal activity among migrants?>>

Fortunately it is not my job to decide. I leave it for the experts to decide if they can, but if in doubt, then we are not obliged to accept anyone whatsoever into Australian society and its benefits (and if some international treaties say that we are obliged, then we should withdraw from those).

My main point was the distinction between physical immigration and social immigration: while it is morally wrong to block people's entry into this continent who pose no risk to us, there is nothing wrong about not sharing social benefits with them.

Banjo,

The Leftist 'Progressive' ratbaggery of PC 'non-discriminatory' immigration policy has completely lost the plot.

As well as being a deliberate wrong use of the term discriminating which has a positive meaning, the 'non discriminatory' policy is being taken to extremes as is the 'diversity-we-have-to-have'. Both work against the interests of the host country, Australia.

My first concern is the abuses of democracy - one being that the electors have not been allowed any real input to policy and choice.

My second concern and not minor either, is that there is no comprehensive risk analysis and risk management plan for immigration available and in place. Plainly, most risks cannot be treated reactively. Anyone who gets a foothold in Australia is a shoo-in for permanent residency and citizenship through the taxpayer-funded appeals system - a system that shouldn't exist.

To top it off, politicians self-censor and are proactively compliant with the wishes of the noisy elements of the ethnic lobby - who do NOT by any stretch of the imagination represent all migrant groups, or many migrants.

Political parties have very short horizons, to feed the media chooks daily and attend to the squeaky wheels. The great majority of the electorate don't get a look-in between elections and they know it. In Labor, even the members are disenfranchised from tors by the recently formalised gerrymander ensuring that the factions control the pre-selections. No democracy there either.

I suggest that instability in government is the future and unfortunately there will be more career politicians - glib opportunists with their own agenda and interests to serve.

No chance then of any improvement in immigration policy that puts Australia and Australians first (as should be the case). There is no chance whatsoever that the 'Progressives' will ever be held accountable for their social experiments. It would take a series of catastrophies for there to be any questioning of relevant policy.

Dear Bazz,

Well your silence indicates you may well have gone back through your posts to discover that despite your furious and emphatic denial you did indeed defend this man's rights, particularly to send hate filled letters to the families of our deceased soldiers.

Specifically you said;

(the)"sheik has the right to say it and even write it"

and that;

"I don't believe anyone should be prosecuted for writing such a letter".

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=5656#157249

I wanted him prosecuted.

I get that you were not alone, that there were other right-wing ratbags who were so determined to hold on to their own right to spew hate speech that they too stood in his corner defending this killer's rights. But you are the only one to try and squirm out of having done so.

What do you have to say for yourself?

In olden days communities had their answers to people like that.
Tarring and Feathering.
This was done to show the communities distaste for the offender without
giving injury.
They were more advanced than us !
Posted by Bazz, Thursday, 7 March 2013 4:39:15 PM

Steele, you really are a thickhead !

Dear Banjo,

I have been giving some thought to the need to enact immigration rules to protect Australian families from tragedies that seem to be increasingly common throughout our community. If like me this is indeed your aim, rather than a racist rant, then I am hoping you will support the inclusion of Scottish people in our combined list of undesirables.

The Scottish have been known for their propensity for violence going back millennia. They were a thorn in the side of the Romans and later the English. Joe Bageant in his book Rainbow Pie addresses this very fact; Drink, Pray, Fight, F**! - How the Scots Irish Screwed Up America.

Here are a few paragraphs;

“In understanding how such ominous political ideations manifested themselves in this country, it helps to look back 450 years to a group of Celtic cattle thieves killing one another in the mud along Hadrian's Wall -- the Borderers. Fanatically religious and war loving, these Scottish Protestants made their way first to Ireland as the "Ulster Scots," then to American shores during the early 18th century. Known to most Americans as the Scots Irish or Scotch Irish, the Borderers brought cultural values that govern (some would say screw up) the political emotions of millions of Americans to this day.”

“Given the unceasing looting, burning and moving, the Borderers built impermanent earth and log dwellings called "cabbins". Within their smoky cabins they lived a quick-tempered, hard drinking, volatile lifestyle, one that anthropologists say can still be seen in American trailer courts today. So the next time you see one of us drunkenly kicking in a neighbor's car door in some trailer court parking lot at 1 AM, try to remember: That's not a brawl you're witnessing, it's cultural diversity.”

http://www.joebageant.com/joe/2005/01/drink_pray_figh.html

Cont...

Cont...

So how much has changed? Very little by the looks of it.

“Almost 150 years after they were first documented and 80 years since they earned Glasgow the "no Mean City" label, its gangs are more numerous and violent than ever. Throughout Glasgow, a city of little more than 1 million people, there are estimated to be more than 170 gangs, accounting for more than 2,000 hard-core members and numerous other hangers-on.”

“Each roams the city fighting pitched battles with knives, clubs, bricks and bottles over graffiti-daubed streets in an epidemic of violence so widespread in the west of Scotland that one in six reported assaults involves a blade. But doctors have admitted that the vast majority of stab wounds treated in the city's hospitals go unreported to the authorities. The scale of the violence is feared to be much greater than officially acknowledged.”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/the-streets-of-scotland-britains-knife-capital-480981.html

Violence and stabbings seem just so much of the Scottish culture one wonders what the impact of allowing Scottish migrants into Australia might have been. Well anecdotal evidence would seem to indicate it has been devastating.

Cont...

Cont...

In the past few years there have been numerous incidents of recent Scottish arrivals being involved in harrowing crimes, here is one;

“The quiet and reserved Scottish immigrant was regarded as somewhat of an outsider in the small town - yet nobody suspected he could have been responsible for the harrowing triple murder of the Rowe family.”

“Jason Alexander Downie, originally from Kilmarnock, Scotland, emigrated to Australia with his mother in 2006, pleaded guilty to stabbing 16-year-old Chantelle Rowe and her parents Andrew and Rose in the South Australian town of Kapunda in November 2010.”

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2130901/Kapunda-murders-Jason-Alexander-Downie-stabbed-Chantelle-Rowes-parents-death.html#ixzz3MVa8GIYi 

Yes that is right, all stabbed to death by this teenager, but not before raping the daughter.

In another SA case two teenagers named Matthew Craig Austin and Ian Bruce McKenzie (two fine Scottish names) both received 22-year non-parole periods for leading a gang of other teenagers who tortured and stabbed to death Tracy Muntz.

Again in SA another crime shocked the State;

“On the eve of Australia Day 2011, the 17-year old son of a policeman and his 16-year old mate broke into Ms Redman's Yacca Rd home. As the frail 87-year old went to investigate, she was savagely punched to the face, breaking her neck. Despite the broken neck, Ms Redman was conscious as one of the youths retrieved a blunt hunting knife from their car. The other youth then used the knife seven times, before they fled and left her body in a pool of blood to be found by her son-in-law the next afternoon.”
The names of the youths were not released but I am prepared to bet at least one of them was of Scottish ancestry.

Australians need to feel safe in their homes. To have these culturally violent potential killers roaming our streets raping, torturing and killing our families and our pensioners is just too much of a risk. I'm sure you will agree with me that we need to add them to the list of undesirables.

SteeleRedux,

Do the Scots that you mention belong to a religion/political movement that has a book containing the word of God and which they must, under pain of death, say that they believe to be the immutable word of God and that Muhammad is God's Prophet?

I know that many Scots are liars but do they have a tenet in their religion that says that it is OK to lie as long as they don't lie to their fellow Scots.

Steele, you're playing silly-buggers, possibly out of boredom today?Either that or critical thinking has deserted you.

Your argument for limiting Scottish migration on the basis of violent tendencies is hardly analogous to an ideology with a manifesto and systemic approach towards achieving goals.

I happen to agree with your general observation that Scots are a toey mob. We all a bit like different breeds of dogs. You come across as a golden retriever type, but you may be an atypical Scot, for all we know, and I think I am an Afghan houndish.

Steele,
...not to mention the Irish.
As I said earlier, a proven background of poverty and neglect should disqualify any potential immigrant from leaving their birthplace let alone entering another country.
We're told that the problems in Blacktown have their roots in north Lebanon, that the troublemakers are from poor,chronically inbred clans who have large families that they can't feed without state help and where there's a high incidence of domestic violence and family dysfunction.

If, as the left insist criminal tendencies really are linked to material issues such as poverty and childhood neglect then surely that has to be the prime consideration for immigration authorities when considering visa applications.
Are you from Bekaa? Or Helmand? Or Juba? Or Mogadishu?...sorry, you can't come in, automatic denial.
Are you from Belfast? Glasgow? St Petersburg? Belgrade? Athens?...show us your bank balance and your personal documents, pass a character test and pay a $!00,000 bond and you're eligible for citizenship in five years.

You guys are seriously underestimating the extent of the threat.

“The first person to be charged over the violence at immigration detention centres is a 33-year-old Scottish man with a 13-page criminal history who has lived in Australia for at least two decades. However, Darren James McCreadie failed to take out Australian citizenship, and when he was jailed for his most recent offence the Immigration Department cancelled his residency. McCreadie was due to be deported after his release from prison in August, but he appealed against the department's action and was being held in Villawood's high-security area pending the outcome. He has been charged with two counts of damaging federal property, two counts of obstructing immigration officials and affray after an incident at the centre on New Year's Eve.”

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/01/03/1041566224394.html

Any what about this Scotsman?

“A SCOTTISH national has been charged with dangerous driving causing the death of his friend/work colleague at Hexham this year and bailed with a surety of $100,000. Charles Scott, 22, was the driver of a car involved in an accident that killed Hexham man Troy Jenkins, 35, on New Year’s Day. Leading Senior Constable Ben Howie, of the Victoria Police major collision investigation unit, yesterday said Mr Scott had been charged with one count of dangerous driving causing death. Mr Jenkins and his young son were driving with Mr Scott on Hexham-Chatsworth Road at 11pm when the ute crashed less than a kilometre from the Jenkins’ home. The father of five died at the scene and ambulance officers treated the young boy’s fractured skull before flying him to the Royal Children’s Hospital in Melbourne for observation and treatment.”

He was given bail and then received no jail time after the case came to court. Don't you think the government needs to get far tougher on these immigrants? Why was he allowed out on bail, indeed allowed to leave the country? Don't you think it is time you guys got your heads out of the sand? Time to move them and their violent murderous tendencies on before they cause any more grief.

o sung wu,
you said, "Still as the dust settles, and other stories of horror overtake this matter, there are those amongst us who 'CAN' make a difference. By introducing appropriate legislation that may not entirely prevent such a horror, but at least reduce the possibilities"

Can you give examples of the things you were thinking of when you said that. We should consider any suggestions that will stop or contain terrorist activities. A big concern now is later generations of muslims that appear to become easily radicalized. Am sure you are aware that sme think that if someone wants to fight for IS then let them go but not allow them back. I don't know how that could work as they are Aus citizens and most likely have only Aus citizenship.

G'day there BANJO...

That my friend is a tall order ? My own 'personal' observation - I believe many of our border processes and preventive measures that are currently in place thereat are porous and easily penetrable, with just a little bluff ?

An example if I may ?

Customs Officer, after examining the Pax's Passport;

Q. '...You're from Lebanon Mr ABDUL, you're first visit here to Australia Mr ABDUL...'?

A. '...yeah my, first visit here, because Joe my friend invited me here, and he's told me all about it, and what a great place it is...'?

Q. '...you're visiting your friend here in Sydney ?

A. '...that's all' ?

Q. '...what's your friends name and address...' ?

A. '...Joe BLOGGS...' He lives in Bondi Junction...?

Q. '...What's Mr BLOGGS full address, in Bondi Junction...' ?

A. ' I don't know the actual street name, but I know how to get there by taxi, easy enough...'

Q. '...You say this is your first visit here, so how can you direct the taxi driver...'?

A. '...No problems, Joe gave me written directions in his letter...'

Q. '...So you and Mr BLOGGS have exchanged letters prior to holidaying here, and he's given you full directions how to get to his home at Bondi Junction...'?

A. '...Yeah, that's it...'

Q. '...Then how did you manage to exchange letters with Mr BLOGGS if you didn't know where to send his letters...'?

A. '...when I was home I had all his address and stuff, I just forgot to bring it with me, but I've got his directions to his house OK though...'?

Q. '...what's Mr BLOGGS telephone number, do you know...'?

A. '...gee's I even forgot that.. ' ?

Q. '...alright Mr ABDUL, as it's your first visit here, you've been co-operative with me and answered all my questions. But should you choose to visit Australia again, I would suggest you carry some papers or other documents that can substantiate your accommodation details, and any other activities that you may plan on doing while holidaying here. Do you understand me Mr ABDUL ?

**Continued**

The above piece of manufactured nonsense is quite typical of the friendly, hospitable approach some of our hard working and dedicated custom's officers employ, when a passenger approaches the 'primary line' at any of our major airports. I do however recognise and accept, some Customs measures may have been strengthened considerably in the last two or three years ?

However, if a name is highlighted on the 'watch list' then the gloves come off. I have the highest regard for the personnel of the Australian Custom Service, and generally they have a brilliant record in interdicting the movements of criminals and terrorists as they come and go. But as I said, our procedures apropos access and egress into our country are somewhat porous, and quite fallible.

BANJO, this is just one small area that needs close examination ? Our Customs people are brilliant. However, amend procedures, and tighten protocols. As a start, it's the pax who MUST establish his/her bona fides, if they can't, well too bad. I would suggest (in the first instance) have a look at the US model, that they've adopted, under the aegis of Homeland Security. Not perfect by a long shot. But much better than us ?

I hope this minor observation of mine, will provoke further reflections and commentary from you BANJO. 'Leaking' borders, is not very reassuring for any of us, one need only review and consider the number of criminals who manage to come and go as they damn well please, usually through our capital city airports ?

Steel,
I'll address your last post first, which is to do with non-citizen criminality.

I believe our laws should be far tougher and we should be building more jails if judges are instructed to give lenient sentences so as not to pressure our present jails. This affects all sentences, whether citizens or not.

Last time I looked, if a non-citizen received a jail sentence of 2 years or more he/she can be deported on completion. Given that it would be a very serious crime to receive a 2 year jail sentence, that is a joke and needs reducing to 1 year sentence AND deportation.

I do not doubt your examples, re the Scotsmen, I did know of an Asian bloke who was jailed for drug dealing. Immigration was waiting for him on release and put him in Villawood pending his deportation. He appealed and the court allowed him to stay here. Why, because he claimed to have fathered a child while here and it would be unfair on the child not to have its father. I do not recall if he even had to prove he was the father, in any case I think the kid would be better off without such a father.

Then there is that Slav bloke, Robert something. He came here with parents as a little kid and had been in jail most of his life for stealing and drug related crimes, a total loss. Never bothered to become naturalized. we deported him to Belgrade and the then opposition leader, Beasley, kicked up such a fuss and cried for him, that we actually brought him back. So he got a free trip to Europe and back. What is the point in having laws?

So the non-citizen criminals get off lightly because we do not apply the laws as we should to protect our citizens. Many non-citizens commit crimes. They are many nationalities, not just Scotsmen.

I might add that I did submit a paper to a government inquiry into Non-citizen deportation about 20 years ago, advocating a tougher stance, but did not achieve anything.

Bazz,
All would be terrorist note, 'All terrorists will be shot if possible whilst committing the crime and then buried at sea, with a pig in the coffin'

That brought a smile to my face, I like that. Put on the list.

OTB,
I agree with what you say on page 10, but it does not please me.

The previous Howard gov dropped the MC word from use and indicated it was just letting MC die. Gillard floated MC a couple of times but it got no support. I really was expecting the current gov to formally drop MC but Abbott seems to betting 2 bob each way on most issues. Like he doesn't want to upset anyone. He just threw away 200mil to some international climate mob. I am most disappointed.

We really need to be rid of MC and then import only those that will integrate. We should be training our own skilled workers and not poaching them from poorer countries. Like Ludwig, I reckon we should aim for zero net immigration. Most frustrating. Labor has lost its working class politicians and is now all academics, lawyers and union hacks. LNP is under the thumb of big business and dances to their tune. Maybe a new practical party is needed.

The taxpayer-funded national broadcaster is the prime single beneficiary of multiculturalism, which goes some way towards explaining why it puts so much effort and air time into marketing MC. That is including providing a podium for a lot of MC spruikers who in some cases have been earning their daily bread from it in one way or other for decades, their whole working life.

Beach <<My first concern is the abuses of democracy>> given half a chance and the rapid right winger would give any semblance of democracy the boot, well and truly, as they impose that police state they so desperately desire.
Jay; <<pay a $!00,000 bond and you're eligible for citizenship in five years.>> A bit like the way the Nazi's treated the rich Jews of Germany but in reverse. Jay, realistically there are not all that many millionaires wanting to immigrate, there are a few, but they are thin on the ground.

Thousands of people enter Australia, through our airports daily. Mostly as tourists, business people or people returning. The vast majority of new arrivals are beneficial to our economy and are most welcome, and cause not problem what so ever. Some on here would jeopardise that economic value by pointing gun at their heads and doing a strip search as they arrive. That would not be a problem as the Boarder Protection People doing the deeds would soon be out of a job due to the lack of arrivals.

Dear Banjo,

You started this thread discussing the need for racial and religious profiling to determine the suitability of certain classes of migrants into this country.

Now you seem to be mumbling about individual Asians and Slavs, about acting on particular non-citizen criminals, something most people would support.

Grow a spine son, you and I both know what has to be done. Blanket bans on those groups we can show have a negative impact on our country. You have picked those who profess an Islamic faith and I have flagged those, brutal, violent, alcoholic criminals – the Scots. How much more evidence do you need? Surely a person like you can see what a blight they have been on our society.

Just look at the Comancheros, probably the most notorious motorcycle gang in Australia linked with drugs, prostitution, assaults and murder on a truly terrifying scale. Their founder?

“The club was formed by William George "Jock" Ross, a Scottish immigrant, in Sydney, New South Wales in 1968. He chose the name after seeing the John Wayne film The Comancheros.”

“Jock Ross received a lifetime jail sentence for his involvement in the Milperra massacre but only served five years and three months before he was released.”

Wikipedia

You remember the Milperra massacre don't you Banjo. That is where a 14 year old girl, an innocent bystander was shot and killed. Why wasn't his citizenship revoked and him put on the first flight out of this country when he walked out of the jail. In fact just imagine how much better this country would have been if he hadn't have been allowed to step foot on our shores in the first place.

Come on mate, prove that you don't just have an Islamophobia fetish, try putting our nation first, join me and support a blanket ban on any further Scottish immigration.

Ordinarily I'd not enter a discussion dealing with Scottish individuals who've settled in OZ, and engaged in serious crime. However STEELEREDUX comments have a sense of legitimacy here, with what he's asserted.

One of the most dangerous, most unpredictable criminals that I've ever encountered, and had a very long, close, and unpleasant association with, is one; Archie Bettie McCAFFERTY born in Glasgow, Scotland.

A deranged killer, that happily, is now once more a resident of his native Scotland (somewhere). I won't go into the specifics of his crimes, suffice to say it's 'shiver down your spine' stuff in my opinion ! I'm sure you can 'suss' him out on the net somewhere, if you're so inclined ? Though Christmas is probable not an ideal time, to research this bastard.

He and another rabid madman killer type, John LUTHWAITE (different crimes, similar types) and several other like minded individuals, were considered so dangerous, so unpredictable, and so explosive, they were confined to the Katingal Special Security Unit, at Long Bay Gaol. However, a very erudite Justice saw fit to condemn the operation of Katingal during the Royal Commission into NSW Prisons, back in the mid 1970's. Subsequently, our clever politicians closed it down, and ultimately had it demolished ! Apparently, the inmates didn't like the place very much so this very clever Justice (the Royal Commissioner) took their wise counsel - well as they say, the rest is history ?

Interestingly, having spent some hours with McCAFFERTY'S parents, I found them to be delightful and very credible human beings. The amount of tears they (both) shed over their son were extraordinary and would've amounted to buckets ? Lovely parents, with a murderous killer, of a son. How can you possibly explain it ? Of course you can't can you, it's all part of God's large plan ?

How can you possibly explain it ? Of course you can't can you, it's all part of God's large plan ?
If this is part of God's large plan then your god is a hideous monster and worth despising not praising.
If God ever did front - He should be taken to The Hague and tried for crimes against humanity.
It is better to rely ion the fact that there is no evidence for his/Her existence and that these things happen due to natural causes.
In my earlier post I asked why Man Haron Monis was allowed a gun license. As was pointed out this statement was incorrect I found myself thinking like a religious person and accepting statements without any evidence what so ever.

o sung wu,
Yes it is a difficult question, that is why I asked you. If it was easy I would put the solution forward and then claim credit. Ha Ha.

However I get your suggestion of tighten up procedures and protocols at entry. This still leaves us with the problem of home grown radicalism. If an idea comes to you, let me know.

Steel,
Your last post was the only one I looked at last night and immediately recognized the non-citizen criminal aspect.

Now I have read the others and it seems you go way back in history and to early colonial USA. But later you still only show a small number of individual criminals that should have been handled by our courts. I bet anyone could do the same with most nationalities of immigrants. Did you subject the Irish, Poms, Poles or Germans to the same?

So where is the anti-social behavior of the Scots, or alien cultural practices. I have not heard of gang rapes by gangs of Scots or riots by Scots. I have not heard one call for Scottish law to be installed.
I have not heard of a culture of forced marriages or FGM or honour killings in Scottish groups, like we do from some muslim groups.

so all you have is a list of non-citizen criminals that happen to be Scottish. I have given my views on non-citizen criminals.

Everyone can point to the Muslim book and prophet that justifies their actions; where's the Scots book and prophet?

Hardly John Knox....

Dear Banjo;

You wrote;

“you still only show a small number of individual criminals that should have been handled by our courts. I bet anyone could do the same with most nationalities of immigrants. Did you subject the Irish, Poms, Poles or Germans to the same?”

Exactly, couldn't have made the point better myself.

As this is probably the best I can hope for I am going to wish you all a very Merry Christmas and a safe and joyous festive season including of course those I have locked horns with during the year for without you life would be much less interesting.

Drink too much, eat too much, upset the odd straight-laced relative and make absolute disgraces of yourselves. See you after Christmas.

Hi there BANJO...

Mate, to be quite honest with you, I reckon you'd know as much about it as I do ? As I see it, 'home grown' radicalism is certainly a problem ? Often driven by boredom, a lack of direction, a sense of adventure and the fact these potential terrorists are very easily influenced and led ?

I've always believed, those young people who you see just 'hanging around' seemingly doing nothing in particular, are in reality, and despite their fervent denials, are looking for mischief ?

Until their more prominent and influential Muslim leaders manage to establish much clearer lines of communications with these impressionable younger Muslims, and offer more realistic alternatives, this fragmentary migration of essentially 'lost souls' will continue to follow their ideological pursuits ?

I guess it's easy to sit here and postulate and presuppose the reasons why, so many of these young Muslim men, and women too apparently, wish to leave their homes and families, and go fight in Syria or somewhere, being fully aware upon their return surely they'll be arrested ?

There is one terror stricken politician in New South Wales this morning, and its not the Primer but the Opposition Leader John (Robbo) Robertson. It look like Robbo is going to be the main course this Christmas as he's well and truly cooked his goose by writing a letter of support in 2011 for the Mad Man himself Haroin Monis. With only 3 months to the state election, Labor cannot afford to run with such a political liability as Robertson. I would say gone, gone, gone. Labor can;t do any worse under Michael Daley, and Daley is as clean as any Labor poly can be in NSW.

Paul,

What are the odds on him staying leader?

I'm offering 100 to 1 ON.

@Paul,

<<[John (Robbo) Robertson] ...well and truly cooked his goose by writing a letter of support in 2011 for the Mad Man himself Haroin Monis>>

Hahaha talk about shooting ones self in the foot. On that basis all the Greens should resign en-mass (if en mass it the right term to use for such a piddling group). Since the Greens have been aiding and abetting the entry of anyone who like Monis boats-in and mouths the magic words "I'm a refugee" , for ages.

Nice one Is Mise, Robertson went this avo! Daley will pick up the poison chalice.
SPQR was that you arrested in Lakemba last night, with the Neo-Nazi Ralph Cerminara. You should not just be worried about terror attacks from people like Mad Man Monis, these crazy's from the extreme right are just as dangerous.
Trying to smear The Greens wont work. Your man Baird had been given the powers to lock Monis up, claimed paperwork prevented the new bail laws from being in place. Maybe Baird should also resign on the grounds of incompetence.

Paul1405,

I thought you might be out on the Sea Shepherd making a nuisance of yourself trying to stop sharks from being dished up at the local fish and chip shop.

Hi there runner, nah! just the opposite, trying to bring back feeding "non-christian", Christians to the lions. You should meet Leo shortly. Are you gearing up to celebrate the pagan holiday of 'Saturnalia' on Thursday? These days the misinformed call it Christmas, but you and I know better.

Paul 1405.
Ralph Cerminara isn't a "right winger", he takes his orders from a different group of middle easterners based on the other side of town.
Nathan Abela is a cretin and like Nick Folkes he's a useful idiot who's outlived his usefulness, they'll both disappear from view shortly.
Cerminara was escorted from the line during the Lindt siege after he lost his head and started screaming about "Nazis" and Muslims working together.
Why does he care about Nazis?
Well here's the spiritual leader of the "Counter Jihadi" Defence League Movement, enough said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZuSNJ3Azl4

I've got plenty more information of the fake right and the anti nationalists.
Here's a photo of a recent anti Mosque protest rally out at Penrith:
http://www.islamophobiawatch.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/Penrith-anti-Muslim-protest.jpg
Anything in particular stand out in that photo, say a nationalist symbol of some sort?
The Penrith action was organised by Liberal councillor Marcus Cornish, the links between the Liberals and anti nationalist and "Islamophobic" groups is there for anyone to see.
In Queensland the anti nationalist groups active over the last few years have been directed by, among others disgraced LNP politicians Hajnal Ban and Rob Messenger and Restore Australia under Mike Holt.
Holt's organisation as well as the stooge Nathan Abela and the APDM subverted the "Stop Bendigo Mosque" group, just as they've wrecked other community groups with legitimate concerns about proposed prayer halls and schools.
The purpose of such groups is on one level to make sure that nationalist sentiment or ideas of whites having group interests or "sentimental" notions about keeping communities as they've been for generations are squashed as soon as they're voiced.
Amnyone who disagess with the "islamophobes" is either branded a "Nazi" or a "Commie", the Israeli flag takes centre stage and propaganda from David Horowitz, Rabbi Schifren and Pamela Geller such as Halal certification, Terrorism, FGM and the Burqa are substituted for the concerns and heartfelt views of the community. It's a clear modus operandi which is repeated every time the question of whether Islamic incursions into rural areas and outer suburbs are a good idea and whether or not Whites should have group interests and a say in both the treatment of their heritage and their posterity.

Jay, as one from the fringe of the right I can fully understand you wanting to distance your little group of fringe dwellers from the fringe of the fringe. In this case The Australian Defense League headed up by one Ralph Cerminara.
This is how Justice Les Brennan described your man Ralph when refusing bail.

"The last thing this community needs, bearing in mind what's happened in recent days, is boofheads like this stirring up a certain section of the community,"

It might be convent to try and associate this little embarrassment of the extreme right with some religious crazies. What are you saying, you can't be a lunatic from the extreme right and Jewish at the same time. On your YouTube Rabbie Ratbag calls it all right wing. Have you invited the rabid rabbi to Australia yet?

It would seem some of these ADL crazies are some of 'Morrisons Men' as well.

https://newmatilda.com/2014/01/29/who-are-australian-defence-league

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-12-23/australian-defence-league-members-denied-bail-over-lakemba-brawl/5986264

Paul,
There's no need to distance racists and nationalists from Ralph Cerminara, he hates us and normally refers to us as "Nazi scum", a mate of mine reckons he's actually on the Zionist payroll but we don't know for sure.
As I've said in the other thread, why would I care?
Monis attacked a foreign owned cafe staffed almost entirely by Asians and murdered a homosexual barista and a liberal minded lawyer who by all accounts had a strong commitment to "social justice".
Apart from some schadenfreude and smirking over the backfiring of #illridewithyou we racists have stayed out of it all because it's nothing to do with us, no real Australians were harmed, or a least nobody we'd like.

Jay, judging from your above post Mad Man Monis only needed to murder a couple more people, maybe a Jew, and a passing Aboriginal and he would have made your day. You said;

"no real Australians were harmed, or a least nobody we'd like'"

The extreme right is so callus and hateful towards their fellow man, they are every bit a dangerous to society as this bloke Monis was.

You reckon the extreme right is dangerous Paul.

They are tail wagging lap dogs, compared to the vicious people hating greens. Just a quick glance at their leader will confirm this to any thinking person.

Paul,
U mad bro?
Islam broke multiculturalism and humiliated the left, not us.
They've killed two of your people and you're still falling at their feet begging for forgiveness, wait until the Muslims bomb a Gay bar or shoot up a Jewish school.
We're just sitting back watching it all uravel and having a good laugh, we're not callous and hateful to our fellow men, just our enemies.

Paul,
Ask yourself this, who are the two people who've gone to jail for political "race hate" crimes and who did they upset?
Fredric Toben and Brendan O'Connell were both non violent protestors who wrote articles and made videos criticising Jews while for the last two years Ralph Cerminara and Co have been talking about burning down Lakemba and doing things like urinating in a spray bottle and using it to defile Muslim women in the street.
What's the bet Ralph Cerminara and his friend get bail this afternoon and go straight back to what they were doing, if they're lucky they won't be back in court for six months and they'll most likely get a slap on the wrist.
Do you understand the concept of controlled opposition and protected political action? The reason people like me aren't involving ourselves in the hysteria is because in the first place it's nothing to do with us and in the second there's no way for Nationalists and Racists to score points from it.
Multiculturalist, Liberal democratic and tolerant Australia was attacked last week and all we're saying is "We told you so".
everything else that's come out of the Lindt Cafe siege was already known to us beforehand.

Hasbeen, you hardly rate as a thinking person, and if ignorance was worth tuppence a ton, you would be a millionaire.

Jay, I consider that Tori Johnson and Katrina Dawson were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. You are presuming Mad Man Monis had a "plan" to take over a foreign owned cafe and then hold a range of "enemies" captive including a homosexual barista and a liberal minded lawyer, then ultimately murder them. I do not believe this mad man had any such plan, more the case having a gun and taking it to Martin Place to do something and the Lindt Cafe was more or less an opportunists target than a planned one, and those inside were simply random victims. If you had been there at the time you would have been a hostage also, and if events had gone against you, people would be placing flowers in Martin Place for Jay of Melbourne.

Fortunately the lunatics from the extreme right are so divided and spend as much hate time hating each other, as they do hating the other 99% of the population. It is just as fortunate that in the nearly 50 years I have be interested in Australian politics these cretins have failed to rise higher than the gutter they reside in, and are unlikely to do so in the foreseeable future.

Paul.
I think it's impossible for us to understand each other, I enjoy the exchange but you're not following the logic of my presentation.
Monis set out to hit Australia where it hurts, some have suggested that he went to Martin Place to assassinate David Koch and Samantha Armytage but balked at the security outside channel 7.
Nevertheless, what he meant to do is irrelevant and what he did was strike at the heart of tolerant, multicultural Australia, wouldn't you agree?
The flower memorial and the displays of solidarity between different groups in society really was an effort to patch up the rip in the social fabric caused by Monis.
The imagining of a "backlash" in the short term was over egging the pudding but to do nothing about that rip in the social fabric would have left open the door for people like Ralph Cerminara and the real wingnut Muslim elements.
Nobody wants mobs of Lebanese and Whites rioting and fighting each other in the streets, the Leftist narrative was (sensibly) suspended for a time and concerned Whites united to shake hands with concerned Muslims.The only way that kind of rapport or detente can be sustained is by parties expressing a White (albeit liberal) group identity meeting with other parties expressing their own Islamic group identity.
All the right can get out of this tragedy is some snotty point scoring over the fact that the narrative had to be suspended and that the hard Left became detached from the popular response.
For Racists and Nationalists there's no meat on this bone, we didn't subscribe to the ideals Monis attacked and affronted before last Monday and we don't subscribe to them now, we don't share your outrage or buy into the right winger's hysteria, all the issues brought to the surface in Martin Place are subjects we've gone over endlessly on blogs, forums and in our private correspondance.
Man Monis changed nothing, the social fabric has been repaired for now, the lefty women and the Islamic women have hugged and cried together in the square, it's over, let's move on.

Jay, what is central here is Monis himself and his personal issues of crime and the law. In a way Monis is like Ned Kelly, not that I am suggesting that Monis should be treated as a folk hero in the way Kelly has become. Kelly married his own personal issues with the law to the broader issues of Irish Catholic discontent with authority. Monis was a terror group of one, and only one... himself! The man had personal issues with the law, the murder of his wife, sexual assault of women, not minor charges, At the same time he was identifying with Muslim discontent and was marrying that to his personal grievances. If things had gone differently for him on the Friday in the High Court, where he had tried to have his conviction for offensive letter writing to the relatives of dead Australian solders overturned, then there would have been no events of the Monday.

This article covers what I am saying.

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/this-pen-is-my-gun-man-haron-monis-failed-high-court-bid-20141216-1283ej.html

In no way was the mad man a part of a Muslim conspiracy, you are giving Monis far more credence than he deserves. In another time. and another place he could have been an Irish Catholic.

Paul,
Monis wasn't "mad", his writing was logical, consistent and mirrors popular anti establishment sentiments found on this very forum, he was a bandwagon jumper as far as ISIS is concerned but that just makes him look like a sad case terrorist as opposed to a hard case.
This is also a pretty good article, it's the reference point for my last post, most of what he says is accurate but I disagree with his further remarks in the comment section:
http://www.pipingshrike.com/2014/12/home-front-an-update.html

Any comparison between Monis and Ned Kelly shews a sad lack of knowledge of Ned Kelly and of Australian history..

Paul,

As an apologist, 10 out 10.
As an analyst, 0 out of 10.
And that's what makes you are first class Green!

Personages like Monis are common in Islam. In fact, i would say without lead-characters like Monis Islam would not be the world religion it is is today.

Is Mise, A Merry Xmas, to you and your family, without getting into a discussion of our favorite folk hero Ned Kelly, I was simply making the point that like Ned and lots of others in history Monis was using the broader Muslim Issues to justify his personal issues. Maybe I would have been better using the failed Austrian painter Adolf Hitler (sorry Jay but he is a classic) and the way he also used a broad world shattering event, Germany's defeat in WWI, as "evidence" for his own failings and his scapegoating of Jews.
It would seem now, Monis was actually a 'big man' back in Iran and subsequent events seen his star wane completely, in his mind that must have been hard to take. The evidence suggests he had no standing in the Muslim community in Sydney what so ever.There has been no outpouring of grief from fellow Muslims for the loss of a brother, just the opposite, they are glad he has gone, an embarrassment.
Jay, peace and joy to you and yours at this festive time. What constitutes madness? There is the classic crazy, the bloke in the padded cell, we can all identify him. Then there is the harder to identify mad people who appear "normal" as you described Monis and I could describe Hitler. Jay I agree with that article as well.
My friend you confuse me some what at times, sometimes you appear to be far right then you appear to be moderately left. What are you? Maybe it shows no one is completely one way or the other.

Paul1405,
Yes, happy christmas, I hope you have a good day too, later on today we're taking the kids up to see my folks in the country, it's always good to get out of the city for a while.
My parents are Leftists so I grew up immersed in Left politics, but like a lot of Lefties I was "mugged by reality" in my twenties and thirties.
When I do those political compass quizzes I'm in the centre but above the line, so I'm "authoritarian centrist" if you like.

SPQR, my opinion is generally in line with that of the NSW Police Commissioner and others. Is Andrew Scipione also a Green?

A Merry Christmas to you and your's Paul and to all other Oloans and theirs.

Hi PAUL1405

While waiting for our varying tribes of grandchildren to again pounce upon us, I was listening to a replay of ABC Radio National's programme, concerning the governments failed attempts at introducing conscription during WWl ? Generally speaking I find the ABC a little biased. However on this occasion their treatment of this highly controversial topic, during those troubled times, was well handled I thought !

And what it did do, was remind me of our various tete-a tete's and exchanges, as we actively pursued matters associated with individuals, the likes of David HICKS, Jane FONDA and conscription evader's per se, during the period of the Vietnam War.

I recall well, how unkindly I assailed you particularly, in your resolve of being officially recognised as a bona fide 'conscience objector' and you being diametrically opposed to that war, for whatever it's reasons were, that it be prosecuted. Previously, I'd apologised to you for some of my more intemperate, perhaps even hurtful remarks ?

Nevertheless, that apology seemed inadequate even feeble, after hearing the ABC's replay today ? A spokesman from the NZ, 'Christian Pacifist Society' cited a shocking case of dreadful cruelty occasioned against two NZ 'conscience objectors', (Messrs BAXTER & BRIGGS) at the hands of the 'Red Caps' (Military Police) during the first War ?

Regrettably, I'd referred to 'some' C.O's. as blatant cowards. I've no doubt maybe a very few were ? Many more were of a religious persuasion, therefore by default were C.O. However, the programme stated, the only two religions that had been 'officially' accepted by the very meticulous, Gov't. 'C.O. Review Board' as genuine C.O's, were the Quakers and another of US origin, the Christadelphians ?

It's for this reason that I now accept, both my opinion and judgement has been irrefutable wrong ! And there does exists quite a substantial number of very courageous, bona fide Conscience Objectors in our community. And they should be just as honoured for their courage against war, as those who choose to put on the DPM's or Khaki's, and fight !

Again, I'm so sorry PAUL !

Hi, o sung wu Christmas is over for another year, we have grown a little bit older, and I hope a little bit wiser. 40 years since Cyclone Tracy, wow seems like just yesterday. Thanks for your kinds words, I give as good as I get on the forum so I'm no saint when it comes to the cut and thrust of debate, I too apologise for the unkindness I dish out at times. If we were all in agreement, all the time, it would be a dull old forum indeed.
Xmas was a most enjoyable day, with my son and his family, he went to great lengths to please, done all the cooking himself, he's not a bad cook, in fact a very good cook, turkey, duck, chicken, baked ham, even done a very tasty leg of lamb, his best mate is a butcher, he went overboard. They invited my brother from the south coast, who is loner, but he surprised by turning up. Invited another uncle and his wife, they have no children, that uncle insisted on bring seafood as well, prawns and heaps of oysters. Even invited his grand aunt from far away, last living sister of his grandmother, who died this year. She came for a few hours, thanks to her granddaughter and husband. His grandfather was also there. I think he wanted it that way. My partner "T", who was not accepted at first by my son, he was rather raciest against her first off, told me what he thought of a bloody Maori, yet he drinks at the pub with Island mates, said that was different, now all is good, she is most accepted by the clan. "T" brought her ukulele and entertained with a singsong and carols. All in all a great day was had.
Interesting, my granddaughter of 4, who was spoiled with gifts, found a $2 bubble maker the most fun, played all afternoon with it.
cont.

cont
WWI and conscription, a very interesting subject, as far as I know Australia was the only completely volunteer army in WWI, we refused Britain the right to shoot our troops for desertion, on the grounds that they were volunteers, the French shot a lot, so did the British. The Catholic archbishop of Melbourne, Daniel Mannix, led the anti-conscription forces at the time, against PM Billy Hughes, as an Irish Catholic I think Mannix was somewhat politically motivated, and he won, twice, but not by much. Women were the strongest voice in favor of conscription, I believe Robert Menzies for years was branded a coward for failing to volunteer, something his mother insisted on, as a couple of brothers had joined up, she said that was enough from the Menzies family. Poor old Bob never lived it down.

Hi there PAUL1405 and everyone else on OLO and the Forum; I can only hope you all had a very happy, and enjoyable Christmas, while being amongst your families and friends. And the rapidly approaching 2015, proves to be a far safer, and a much happier and healthier year, then was 2014 !

Paul1405...

Your descriptions of Christmas at you home were more of less a mirrored image of ours ? Lots of laughter, eating more laughter, noise, and yet more eating...well I believe you know exactly what I mean ? Today a certain aura of quietness seems to have settled upon us once more, for awhile at least anyway ?

You said your partner 'T' was not accepted there for awhile by your son and other family members, however things have managed to have worked themselves out ? Family dynamics do tend to 'bottom out' given a little time, and left to do so ? And our delightful Maori cousins (merely across the ditch) have marvellous musical prestige, as uniquely demonstrated by 'T's' distinctive talents with her Ukulele and fine singing voice ! Polynesian and Melanesian cultures are totally suffused with a sense of real musical ability and cadence ! Unlike us Aussies, good at 'shoring up' the public bar but, we do have our limitations...?

Pleased you had a fantastic Christmas PAUL, at my age, I've got to make the best of each and every one of em' now I reckon, LOL !

Interestingly the more I read and hear of the first or (Great) War, the more I realise I don't know much about it at all ? Both my Grandfathers were in the Army. My paternal, was in the Anglo-Boer War (British Army) and my maternal Grandfather, WW l. I've spent more time attempting to research the former, than WW l where I have much more in the way of dependable records in my possession. I'll get around to it soon enough I expect ? Catch you soon Paul.

Hi o sung wu, had a great avo out in Newtown Sydney. Pub lunch which was great 'T" had beef ribs for 15 bucks big serve, she loves anything with bones, (I tell her that's the cannibal in her, ha, ha) I had the $10 chicken, salad and bread rolls all up lunch with a couple of drinks each $55. Talking of WWI after lunch we took in a movie at the 'Dendy' Russell Crowe in 'The Water Diviner' The plot is "After the Battle of Gallipoli (1915), in 1919, an Australian farmer, Connor (Russell Crowe), travels to Turkey to find his 3 missing sons." Wont say anymore than a good flick, even "T" enjoyed it and she not a "war" movie person, this is a lot more than a simple war flick, certainly worth a watch. I'll add some great acting by Yilmaz Erdogan, playing a Turkish Army Major who befriends Connor. RC's first attempt at directing was a great success.

Paul and O sung wu,
WW1 saw the first terrorist attack in Aus.

A couple of Turks that lived in Broken Hill, apparently deciding to help their countries war effort in 1915, set themselves up on a hill and shot at passengers in an open train slowly going up hill to a picnic day not far from BH.

They killed 3 or 4 but they themselves were sighted later and shot by a group hunting them.

Wikipedia has story and pics if you want.

Good evening to you PAUL...

Actually I've heard it was a pretty good movie, and with Russell CROWE, it should be quite good, he can surely act when he chooses to do so ? Newtown is a pretty 'up market' place to be these days, the new Paddington I've heard, with real estate prices almost reflecting that of Beverly Hills CA, well not quite, but you know what I mean !

The prices they charged you weren't too bad either, given it's Boxing Day, a gazetted public holiday ? Newtown would be close to your own 'stamping grounds' when you were at Uni.? Sydney University virtually just around the corner so to speak ? Or did you attend UNSW ?

Well PAUL, I'll probably sign off for now, and quietly wait until another correspondent raises some other contemporary and highly relevant Theme ?? So we can all strenuously, get our collective dentures and teeth, zealously into it and tear it asunder !

Take it easy mate !

o sung wu spent time at Sydney Uni and probably too much time at the near by Forest Lodge Hotel, drinking and plotting with the rest of the uni 'ratbags'. p/s More drinking than plotting.
We spend a lot of time in Newtown, our Greens branch boarders the burb and Newtown is a new seat we hope to win at the 2015 NSW state election. It would double our lower house representation to two, Labor is the danger and the small Liberal and others preferences could be a deciding factor, however we usually do well from Liberal preferences in that area, its optional preferential voting anyway. That would come as a surprise for some, Liberal voters preference going to a Green candidate. I'm sure we'll bump into the Liberals before the election.

Hi, o sung wu, Newtown up market, wow, how things change.

One of my girlfriends was head mistress of a primary school there in the late 60s. She resigned when the little darlings started dropping bricks from the top floor, [3 or 4 story red brick building], trying to get the teachers.

She said it was the darker complexion kids doing it. Could that have been the start of Oz terrorism?

She went back when they offered her a nice new SINGLE STORY school in a nicer suburb, like Ryde or Eastwood, area.

Those were the days. In places like Balmain you could buy 2 adjoining tenements for about 7,000 pounds the pair, combine them into one reasonable pad, renovate them, & commit daylight robbery by selling the result to some sucker for almost 25,000 pounds.

The Australian Racing Drivers Club was in Leichhardt. Nice central location, but you wouldn't buy a house there. Today you couldn't afford to.

Yep things have changed.

Hasbeen, you always manage to introduce a racial slur into the conversation. Girlfriend, 1960's, roof top, bricks, black kids. Any possibility your "girlfriend" was a pathological liar who hated Aboriginals? Maybe she was sacked by the Education Department for that very reason! We'll never know.

Watch it Paul, your own racism is showing.

At no point did I mention aboriginals in my post. While there may have been a few mixed race with a little aboriginal blood, the area had not become an aboriginal ghetto at that time, to the best of my limited knowledge of the area.

It was more immigrants with swarthy skin colour I was mentioning, not race.

It is not unusual for kids of failed parents in failed social experiments to become antisocial. As it was never an area I frequented, I have no ideas of the ethnicity of the little horrors at the time.

Hasbeen, I started school in 1959, in yes, inner Sydney. The public schools in that era 1960's had 95% head masters, and inner city schools more like 99%, so your "girlfriend" was a rare exception, being female and put in charge of what was considered a rough school, no such thing as a disadvantaged school in those days, just rough schools. The Department thought female Head Mistresses, the few there were, were better place in smaller more genteel schools. The migrant children at school in those day were a mix of Southern European, Greek, Yugoslavs, Italians, Maltese and Poms, plenty of Poms. In the late 60's a few well off Egyptians arrived and surprise surprise they were Christian not Muslim have fled Egypt on British passports, they paid big bucks for passports. The Greeks settled in Marrickville, with the Italians tacking up residence in Leichhardt, Poms could be found ever where and Maltese in Surry Hills and Darlinghurst. Sure you girlfriend wasn't at Erko Public School in Erskineville Rd, it had a big red brick building facing the main road and lots of suntanned kids went there.

Could be Paul, I never had much knowledge of the area. I saw the school a couple of times, when I dropped her off or picked her up, & shuddered. It looked more like a prison than school to me. My schools had been dilapidated old things, or portables, but had a better feel.

I think she was supposed to be applying some new idea to improve the environment of the place, but obviously wasn't successful.

Yep she was a bit of a high flyer. I was amazed she was asked to go back after quitting.

She had been a bit of a bleeding heart, but a couple of terms at that school did harden her attitude somewhat.

Hasbeen, in those days there were many disadvantaged kids, through poverty and family problems caused by alcoholism. Schools did not cater for children's special needs. For those that couldn't or wouldn't learn they simply fell through the cracks. Fortunately, and I use that term loosely, there were enough unskilled jobs around to help keep up full employment.
You may not agree, but I believe people are very much products of their environment, whether they be an Aussie kid growing up in Newtown or a Arab kid growing up in Baghdad. Society reaps what it sows.

My first wife was an infants teacher in the late 1960s early 70s in an inner Sydney suburb and had very mixed classes.
Not widely known is the fact that teachers in those days were forbidden to teach in other than English and also forbidden to have children translate for other children.
Migrant children who had no English were expected to learn the new language quickly.
She was very successful with teaching the new arrivals as she absolutely refused to not use translators, this brought ire down upon her head but it was water off a duck's back as she had no desire to rise in the department and saw her vocation as an Infants Teacher.

My partner "T" was slapped and caned many times at school for talking Maori by Pakeha teachers, forced to speak English and they even gave here a European name which many people still call her by today, she actually forgot her Maori name until she went to get a passport and discovered it again. I use both her names, her Pakeha name most of the time, her Maori name when I get a bit angry with her.

Yes Paul, & I believe it has more to do with the parents than anything else, at least in the country where I grew up.

We had much better, & much more competent teachers in our small country schools back then, than we do today in any schools. At high schools if you could handle the work, & wanted to learn, we had teachers who wanted to, & could teach you

I played hooker for our senior football [league] team. I swung between 2 very big kids. One was a part aboriginal, very bright, but parents not interested in him going on to senior school. The other was incredibly white, almost ghostly. No idea of his origan, but his parents had reasonably heavy accents. He was not so bright, but his parents wanted him to go on, & the teachers gave him enough help to get his leaving certificate.

All kids were simply accepted & got on with it. Not many migrants out in the bush, so I think less problems for them & us.

I don't think I'd even seen an Italian migrant, until I started at General Motors Pagewood.

Hi there BANJO...

My wife and I toured around Broken Hill about 7 or 8 years ago, and loved it ! I've always been keen on a group known as the 'Brushmen of the Bush', a small select group of Aussie Painters (Artists) famous for capturing much of the Oz landscape on canvas ? Notably amongst them, is Kevin 'Pro' HART, Geo. KENDALL, Howard STEER, Jack ABSALOM and many ors. equally as famous.

Actually BANJO, there's quite a bit written on the two Turks who decided to take on those 'warrior miners' of Broken Hill ! It occurred along the short Railway spur between BH and Silverton, about a distance of seven miles ? This incident is claimed to be the first shots ever fired by any Aussies of WW l ? The veracity of which, I can't possibly attest too ? Whatever the truth of it is, it does make for an interesting story, and I've no doubt, it actually happened ?

HI there PAUL1405...

I really like the entire campus of Sydney University, I've been there on many occasions (by invitation) including the beautiful 'Great Hall' (again, always by invitation!).

A literary 'leading light' by the name of 'Mungo McCullum' often spoke there at the Union. Particularly about those evil laws prohibiting the possession and smoking of cannabis. Mr McCullum did not enjoy much popularity, amongst my less humorous police colleagues in those days ? Seemingly, his wicked wit and razor sharp tongue, tended to really annoy them ?

Personally I quite liked him, together with his very quick brain. I used to grin quietly to myself when I saw these big, red faced old sergeants trying hard to dress him down ? He was very thin, almost angular in his slight frame, thus watching this guy 'tie-up' these big tough, 'red faced' old police sergeants, was priceless I thought ! Still I was younger, and had a good sense of humour (then) myself ?

o sung wu,
If the Wikipedia article is correct that the Broken Hill incident occurred in 1915, it could not be the first shot fired in WW1.

Yes there is quite a lot written about the incident. I did not want to interfere in your conversation with Paul too much. Apparently the two Turks also put up a fight when located and in an exchange of fire they were killed. As you say an interesting incident, but am sorry for the victims.

In relation to 'the first shot', My understanding this was by a gun battery at Port Phillip which fired across the bow of a German cargo ship which was trying to flee Melbourne on the 5th August 1914, the day after war was declared. It resulted in the ship being captured.

http://anzaccentenary.vic.gov.au/first-shot-3/

It seems this has been a controversial subject among war historians.
Google 'the first shot WW1'.

o sung wu,
The only reason I posted about the Broken Hill incident is that this post is about terrorism and that was the first act of terrorism in Aus.

Interesting that you and Paul were conversing about WW1, some 100 years earlier, and still relevant to the subject, as the BH incident occurred during and because of WW1.

I simply wanted to draw your attention to the event and its relevance to WW1.

G'day there BANJO...

My good friend I'll always defer to your knowledge. It was interesting though how you reminded us of that event at Broken Hill all those years ago. Some of the 'old sparks' up there, treat this whole episode, in somewhat of a hilarious fashion, perhaps those who lost their lives wouldn't think so I'm sure ? Another tiny snippet of Australian history, even folklore perhaps ?

You originally cited it as a 'terrorist' event ? You know, I've never quite learned the precise difference, between terrorism and a serious crime ? To me, they are one of the same.

'Terrorism' (noun) - '...the unofficial or unauthorised use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims...' ?
So says 'The Oxford English Dictionary'. Ok that's cool. What then is the same definition if we substitute '...political aims'...' with '...religious aims...' ? To my uneducated mind, both of these interpretations, amount to committing a serious crime ! Therefore all we're doing is playing with words and frightening people ?

BANJO what the Oz government must do, is hit these bastards very hard. Anyone found 'actually engaging' in any form of 'terrorist'/criminal activity, similar to that which terrorised Martin Place, pull out all stops of natural justice. Lock them up for the term of their natural life. With only the basic of privileges, without any hope of clemency.

Still before we do that; first we'll need to produce a 'white paper'; establish a 'Senate Select Committee', to initiate the 'terms of reference'; seek advise from the C'wealth AG, to frame the legislative 'Memorandum of Intent'; where it must lay on the 'Lower House' table for the requisite 90 days, in order Lower House Members may examine it's constitute text...?

And by then BANJO, we'll all have grown lengthy white beards, some of us will be long deceased, and at the end of the day precisely nothing will've happened ! Another victim of that uniquely Australian, 'political paralysis' that we're all so accustomed too !

The learning from the Rotherham (UK) crimes against children is that where mistakes are made in immigration policies and decisions, there is no way of ever turning the clock back.

The toxic political system, noxious culture and criminality imported with migrants and 'refugees' from the Kashmir will never completely abate, at least not in the lifetimes of anyone living today. It is all inextricably interwoven and systemic. Obviously too, the post traumatic after-effects for victims and in many cases drug dependence (offenders forced drugs on them), which also affects their children, many of whom too were conceived though force and deception.

The worry is that neither in the UK nor Australia has the government made any real attempt to produce and public a comprehensive risk analysis of migration (and asylum seekers). Any claimed risk treatments claimed by government must therefore be suspect and likely ineffective. Rotherham proved that to be the case in the UK. Later, it is again politically convenient to sweep it all under the carpet and carry on regardless.

I'm no expert on WWI, but I do believe Australia's first "action" in the 'War To End All Wars' (we could have a endless discussion on that one alone), was the annexing of German New Guinea;

The Australian occupation of German New Guinea was the takeover of the Pacific colony of German New Guinea in September – November 1914 by an expeditionary force from Australia, called the Australian Naval and Military Expeditionary Force.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_occupation_of_German_New_Guinea

There is a commemorative plaque near Central Railway Station Sydney commemorating the spot the 1st AIF marshaled before marching to Woolloomooloo for embarkation to Egypt, not sure of the date, but it was well after war was declared.

Paul1405,
I'm looking at my great grandfather's service record and he enlisted in December 1914, departed Melbourne in February 1915 in a reinforcement company for 6 Batallion, he landed on Gallipoli in mid May 1915.
So the induction and basic training was only a few weeks, some weeks of further training in Egypt then into action.

Jay, I think you are correct, the training was very basic indeed. Those landing at Gallipoli were mostly raw recruits and would have had no idea of war as such. The men of the regular army, a few would have had war experience, some would have served in South Africa during the Boer War, but that had ended 13 years previous.
One thing that is forgotten about Gallipoli is the number Turks killed, overall an estimated 250,000 including an estimated 70,000 fighting ANZAC troops, Australia and New Zealand lost around 11,500, Although it was a Turkish victory in the end they paid a very high price for that victory.

Paul,
I found a ref to the march to embark,

'After marching through the streets of Sydney the battalion was embarked on HMT “Afric” on the 18th October bound for Albany, Western Australia. On 1st November the fleet totaling 36 ship carrying 29,500 men departed for Cairo, Egypt'.

I now recall a recent large event in Albany commemorating the fleet departure from Albany in 1914.

War was declared on the 4th August 1914 and by the 20th 10,000 had enlisted.

Can you recall where that plaque is? On Broadway, I expect, or could be Eddy Ave or even in Belmore park. When next in Sydney I will look it up.

OTB,
Yes governments are good at hiding things. Rotherham is a good example. Fraser was advised that the Lebanese were not suitable migrants but ignored that.

Their was a report by the Muslim Womens Association about muslim former husbands turning up at the home of their former wives and demanding sex. Claiming they were still married under muslim law despite our courts granting divorce. This report was done in Melbourne and Rudd buried it and it still has not been tabled in Parliament.

Only a month or so ago, the smh had an article about corruption within the DIAC. Morrison called for an urgent report, but still have heard nothing further.

Like you, I fail to understand why we allow entry of those groups that have shown us they will not integrate and cause us social problems. Governments will not admit they got it wrong. I would find nothing easier than to ban entry to Afghans if they have a culture of sex exploitation of young boys and girls. Our kids are at risk

Dear Banjo,

Talking about sex exploitation of young children -
did you happen to see "Sixty Minutes," this
evening? It dealt with Daniel Morcombe and the
man who raped and killed him. That man was not from
the Middle East or an Arab or a Muslim. He had a history
of sex offences - and he's not the only one in this
country doing vile things to children as history has
shown. If you're talking about banning certain groups
of people simply because of their country of origin -
where do we draw the line because as we've seen from
some of the evil behaviour on display in this country -
it doesn't always come just from members of only one
group.

Banjo said,

".... to ban entry to Afghans if they have a culture of sex exploitation of young boys and girls. Our kids are at risk".

Foxy said,

"If you're talking about banning certain groups
of people simply because of their country of origin -...."

He wasn't talking about banning anyone because of their country of origin but banning people whose culture is diametrically opposed to the norms of our culture and our law.

Foxy,
Yes, I am talking about banning people of certain groups that have a CULTURE that is alien to our society. My reading leads me to understand that young boys are commonly taken as sex slaves by men and girls as young as 6 are married off. Afghans even have a special name for the boys. You should understand the practice is not regarded as criminal in Afghanistan, it is culturally common.

I certainly would ban those groups that practice FGM, honour killing, forced marriage and kerosene burning wives, not to mention acid attacks on former lovers. Those that continue hatreds, and fight other groups that has been going on for perhaps a century or more.

Muslims also because of failure to integrate, contempt for our society and anti social behavior. We have had direct terrorist attack aimed at our citizens holidaying in a neighbouring country which killed 88. We have about 20 now in jail for planning terrorism and a few to come before the courts, all muslim. Many have left to fight with those we are at war with and more would go if they could, all muslim.

So the killings in Martin Place is not an isolated event by a muslim.

Those that will not integrate and hate us would be happier in a country more suited to their culture.

Dear Foxy,

Yes indeed Daniel's killer was one Peter Cowen.

“Cowan is a surname. It is an anglicized form of the old Scottish Gaelic MacEoghain or MacEoin.”
Wikipedia

As I stated earlier killing, particularly by stabbing, is in the Scottish culture and in their nature. We need to close our borders to this aberrant race.

However what of his particular predilection for raping young boys? It is not a particularly Scottish thing to do after all. This fact however explains everything;

“The Cowans led a strict household and gave their children a Catholic upbringing....Cowan and his brothers attended Mt Maria College, an independent Catholic high school in Mitchelton then known as Marcellin College. Cowan's year nine English teacher claimed Cowan was somewhat of a "bully" who taunted other students, would proudly parade around his erections and was "despised by his peers".”
Wikipedia

The Catholic Church is responsible for over 2/3rds of the child abuse cases before the current Royal Commission. Further; “AT LEAST one in 20 Catholic priests in Melbourne is a child sex abuser, although the real figure is probably one in 15, the state inquiry into the churches' handling of sex abuse was told yesterday.”
http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/one-in-20-priests-an-abuser-inquiry-told-20121022-2816q.html

So when Banjo

“Yes, I am talking about banning people of certain groups that have a CULTURE that is alien to our society. My reading leads me to understand that young boys are commonly taken as sex slaves by men” I can only concur. Those of the Catholic persuasion need to find a country where their religious beliefs and their tolerance and protection for the child abusers within their midst can be accommodated, Australia is not such a place!

So Muslims, Micks, and Scots are out henceforth.

But, SteeleRedux if you ban the Scots, what will I do for my daily fix of "McDonald's". I could be forced to survive on a diet of KFC!
Yes, I agree we need to pack off all those with abhorrent alien practices to a country with equally abhorrent alien practices, like New Zealand! have you ever seen how they play rugby?
Steele, did you know there are more Presbyterians in Australia than Muslims and we all know Scot's are all Presbyterians. We need to make "packing off Scots", our priority number one, We can send them to Dunedin, New Zealand they will feel at home there, its a straight copy of Edinburgh.

Banjo, you are purposely misrepresenting the situation. Take this for example. Boys as sex slaves in Afghanistan, which is known as "bacha bazi". You claim it is virtually legal when in fact it is outlawed in Afghanistan, being against both sharia law and the civil code. Such an abhorrent practice is not accepted by the majority of Australians, including Muslims, yet you want to ban all Muslims for the actions of a minority. Do you think child prostitution does not go on in Australia, it does, and its not necessarily Muslim related . We have strong laws covering this and other vile practices you raise, and people coming to this country must be subject to the law, just like the rest of us.

Don't be silly Foxy !
The problem is wider than just sex offenses.
Do we want this country to become like say Pakistan or Lebanon or Syria
or Saudi Arabia etc etc ?

If you transplant the people from those countries to here, it is now
obvious that here will become more and more like there.

It is so simple. I just do not understand why others cannot see it.

Bazz,

Yeah Foxy and Steelie like true apologists play the BUT-EVERYONE-DOES -IT game. And Paul is still reading up on what the party want him to say.

People like Foxy and Steelie should hang their heads in SHAME SHAME SHAME because it was their spruiking that contributed to our recent troubles

Yes SPQR, I guess people adopted the same attitude to the Nazis in the 1930s.
Certainly they did in the UK from what we see in documentaries etc.

Foxy always seemed to take a left like stance which is fair enough,
but lately she is becoming rigid and takes unsustainable positions.

SPQR, just read my last post where I said;
but lately she is becoming rigid and takes unsustainable positions.

Perhaps it could be better expressed as;
Foxy lately takes reasonable but unrealistic positions.

Yes Bazz, <<I guess people adopted the same attitude to the Nazis in the 1930s.>> Bazz, just like 'Pig Iron' Bob Menzies did, the founder of The Liberal Party, and a hero of Tony Abbott's, thought Hitler was a wonderful chap after his 2 week visit to Nazi Germany!

SPQR what is the neo-fascists policy of Australia First this week, you should know!

Paul,

The one of biggest ally's the Islamists have are the Greens.I wonder how many more like Monis owe their entry to the Greens open door to all boaties advocacy.

Good Morning,

I certainly don't have the answers on how to
prevent or contain terrorist acts in Australia
however I don't realistically think that what's
being proposed in posts on this discussion is
going to solve the problem. Of course that's
only an opinion and should simply be taken as such.
Nothing more should be read into it about myself,
or my character. The closest solution that made
sense to me was the one offered by Peter Costello
in his book, "The Costello Memoirs," where he stated:

"Terrorists and those who support them do not acknowledge
the rights and liberties of others - the right to live
without being maimed, the right to live without being
bombed - and as such they forfeit the right to join in
Australian citizenship..."

"There is one law we are all expected to abide by. It is
the law enacted by the Parliament under the Australian
Constitution. If you can't accept that you don't
accept the fundamentals of what Australia is and what it
stand for."

And finally -

"We are asking all of our citizens to subscribe to a
framework that can protect the rights and liberties of all.
These are Australian values. We must be very clear on this
point. They are not optional. We expect all those who call
themselves Australians to subscribe to them. Loyalty,
democracy, tolerance, the rule of law, values worth preserving,
values worth defending. The values of Australia and its
citizens."

Cheers.

Dear Bazz,

You wrote, seemingly with a straight face, this little gem;

“I guess people adopted the same attitude to the Nazis in the 1930s.“

Wanting to ban a people from a country specifically because of their race/religion would kinda fit that bill rather nicely wouldn't you think.

Lol, made my day.

Migration policy that prefers applicants with needed education, skills and the capacity to easily fit into the host country and become respectable, law-abiding, productive citizens is what migration is supposed to be all about, isn't it?

What twisted agenda would prioritise 'diversity' instead? Why?

The culturally cringing leftists have a dead hand on the tiller and Abbott is falling short. He is well-meaning but he or his advisers are too focussed on the short term (newspaper polls). A statesman is sorely needed.

Someone mentioned 'sustainability', but as far as the leftists and the barking mad Greens are concerned, sustainability is obviously just a marketing gimmick for them.

OTB

Diversity is now one of the key selection criteria in govt jobs.Its more important to know & identify with Calathumpian language and culture --- than English and Australian values.

SPQR,

That could go some way towards explaining the corruption and ineffectiveness apparent in the federal immigration administration.

Now that the previous Immigration Minister Scott Morrison has been transferred to the social services ministry and Health Minister Peter Dutton to immigration, will this be taken as the golden opportunity to forget or minimise Morrison's promise to urgently review and report on corruption in immigration?

Yes Paul, spot on, I have no knowledge of Menzies statements on Hitler
but it seems many were taken in, Chamberlain etc.

Foxy,
I have suggested a sure fire way to stop terrorists.
First, it seems many of their operations are expected to be suicide
operations. They become martyrs and enter Paradise immediately.
Using that belief, then bury Monsi with a pig and warn that all future
terrorists killed in operations will also be buried with a pig.

That will make it impossible for them to enter Paradise.
That would be a major disincentive.

Foxy,
I accept what Peter Costello had to say in those 3 paragraphs as an objective.

However, what he does not say is how to achieve that end.

The only way that can be achieved is to deny entry to those groups that have shown contempt for our society and laws. Those who desire to dramatically change our society. Without selective immigration, the hatreds and alien cultural practices will continue to be refreshed.

How else can it be achieved? As yet nobody has put forward anything practical. Have you an opinion on how it can be done?

We have spoken about this issue many times and, if I recall properly, you last were still very keen on diversity as the objective of immigration policy. You now appear to have changed and, by quoting Costello, now seek social cohesion as the objective. How do we get that?

Dear Banjo,

I have stated in the past and continue to
do so now that what is necessary is to make it
quite clear to newcomers that they will be expected
to obey our laws and make an overriding commitment
to Australia, its values, and its people.

I can't make it any clearer for you.

Currently - all Australians are equal under the law.

This means that nobody should be treated differently
from anybody else because of their race, ethnicity,
or country of origin, because of their age, gender,
marital status or disability, or because of their
political or religious beliefs.

Government agencies and
independent courts are required to treat everyone
fairly. This means that you cannot refuse entry into
this country to people because of their race, colour,
religion, gender, marital status, et cetera. What you are
proposing goes against the very framework of the laws -
that we expect everyone to abide by.

Dear Banjo,

I am still waiting in expectation and solidarity for you to join with me in barring Scottish immigrants into this country. Your reluctance is a little bewildering given your avowed motives of protecting Australians from criminal behaviour not in keeping with our values and our way of life.

More evidence?

Quote

“In Glasgow, Scotland's biggest city, a stabbing occurs every six hours - and many more go unreported. Survey after survey, from the World Health Organisation to the United Nations, identifies Glasgow as one of the most violent cities in western Europe. Among young males aged between 10 and 29, the rate of homicide is similar to Argentina, Costa Rica and Lithuania. Alcohol-related death rates are three times the British average while Scots have one of the lowest life expectancies in Europe.

The nightmare is constant, a cycle of violence that each weekend sees the alcoholic and drug addicted, chronically unemployed and angry, the young and the old, take to the streets armed with knives, machetes and even samurai swords to battle the demons of disillusionment - and each other.

Three-quarters of all weapons crimes in Scotland occur in the Strathclyde policing district in and around Glasgow. Between 5000 and 6000 are recorded each year and more than 2200 hospital beds are taken up with the victims.

The raw statistics are mind-boggling. But they do not explain why blade-carrying is so culturally imbued among Glaswegian men, from the razor gangs of the 1930s to the 100 or so motley, territorial mobs who prowl the vast housing schemes around the city today.

Is it possible that generations of alcohol abuse, extreme disadvantage and social distress - combined with inculcated machismo and a modern drug culture - have created a cocktail toxic enough to see a penchant for violence hardwired into the Glaswegian psyche?

End quote.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/fear-and-loathing-in-the-city-of-rage-20110610-1fwxq.html

“penchant for violence hardwired into the Glaswegian psyche”

Australia has less than a tenth the rate of weapons crime than Glasgow. How about stepping up and joining me in doing something about stopping this criminal culture infecting our shores.

Fox,

I do wish that leftist politically correct term 'discrimination' was dropped. Because its use implies the very opposite of its meaning and muddies the waters, which is the intention isn't it?

Honestly now, what is and should be the aims of immigration? I am damned sure the public doesn't sign up to the aim you always imply, of never ending diversity to ethnically cleanse Australia of its 'white' inheritance and traditions. Leftist cultural elitism has always kowtowed to anything foreign. -As long as that doesn't mean the US or UK it now appears, although in the past leftists merely(sic) disparaged Australians. It is recognised as leftist self-revulsion and was(is?) popular in university sociology departments.

Of course Australia is discriminating as to who is allowed into the country, let alone permanent residency. It should and must be discriminating.

You did not manage to Google this, but why not?

<The criteria for the Migration Programme(sic) are selective —those applicants who meet Australia's requirements and have good prospects for successful settlement are chosen. There are detailed rules governing entry in each migration category and selection is based on a case-by-case assessment of applications.

Migrants may be selected on the basis of such factors as relationship to an Australian permanent resident or citizen, skills, age, qualifications, capital and business acumen. All applicants must also meet the health and character requirements specified by migration legislation.

If a person satisfies Australia's selection criteria, they stand an equal chance of being selected, unless there is a cap imposed on the number of visas allocated to a particular category.

All applicants for permanent entry to Australia must be assessed against Australia's health and character requirements, which are designed to exclude any people whose presence in Australia would not be in the interest of the Australian community.>
https://www.immi.gov.au/media/fact-sheets/01backgd.htm

There is nothing to prevent Australia from putting whatever emphasis it requires into its immigration policy. From the experience of Rotherham (UK) to take just one example, immigration policy had better put effort into undertaking a professional comprehensive risk analysis of its immigration policies and processes post-haste.

Hello there FOXY...

Firstly, I hope you and yours, all have a very happy and healthy 2015 !

You made a statement somewhere along the lines of; '...currently all Australians are equal under the law...' ? In theory perhaps, but in practice far from it I'm afraid ? I'm being a bit disingenuous I suppose, but in the criminal law, justice is a commodity that can often be bought ? I don't mean as in corruption (though corruption does penetrate through the system occasionally) I mean if you possess the necessary wherewithal, justice tends to favour those with the best and brightest of Counsel ? I could cite a well known case, but I'd rather not if you don't mind ?

However what you say in principle is quite true, we're all equal under the law - it's a fundamental truth under our system of jurisprudence.

Foxy,
Notice you do not mention culture.

What I suggest is denying entry on cultural practices, nothing else.

I have never seen anything that prevents us from denying entry on cultural grounds. It is reasonable that those groups that have shown us their cultural practices are not acceptable to us are denied entry.

Dear Banjo,

Cultural practices that are against our laws are
are already banned and illegal.
So I don't think that you'll have much success with
what you're proposing.

Foxy,

You must harbour dreadful dislike and resentment towards your fellow countrymen (that is if you regard Aussies that way) to believe as you apparently do that open borders are fine and the welcome mat is out for anyone from anywhere and in whatever numbers want to come.

It appears that you would remove any and all barriers presently in place. Otherwise, which might you retain and kindly avoid vague generalities?

Foxy to the world: 'Here is the open door, matter of fact no door, open season. It is all care and no responsibility, and the police (and victims) can look out for themselves later'.

Remarking on Rotherham (UK) where there are 1400 known victims of sex crimes that you yourself would say in threads on other issues to be the most despicable crime imaginable and possibly worse than death, you opine that there are sex crimes happening anyway and list one!

You are very casual, cavalier, about the safety and welfare of your own countrymen.

What exactly do you believe should be the aims and limits of an immigration program?

Dear onthebeach,

You must harbour dreadful dislike and resentment towards your fellow countrymen (that is if you regard Aussies that way) to believe as you apparently do that open borders are fine and the welcome mat is out for anyone from anywhere and in whatever numbers want to come.

It appears that you would want to allow the continuation of allowing those of the Catholic faith to enter as migrants to abuse our young defenseless Australians

OTB to the world: 'Here is the open door, matter of fact no door, open season. It is all care and no responsibility, and the police (and victims) can look out for themselves later'.

Remarking on the Broken Rites statistics which shows there are 150 convicted Catholic priests in Australia many of who sexually assaulted tens and in some cases hundreds of victims each. This is while the leadership of the Catholic Church protected them, reassigned them to fresh parishes, denied the victims of sex crimes any justice. A crime that you yourself would agree to be the most despicable crime imaginable and possibly worse than death, you opine that there are sex crimes happening anyway and list one!

Perhaps if you can illustrate such an abuse of power and responsibility within the Muslim religious hierarchy within Australia we might join forces to expel this threat from our midst. But that is not going to happen is it because the protection of Australian children is furthermost from your mind.

Instead you are very casual, cavalier, about the safety and welfare of your own countrymen. You choose to cherry pick to suit your prejudices rather than having any regard for the safety of our most vulnerable.

What exactly do you believe should be the aims and limits of an immigration program?

Foxy,
On that basis would you confirm that you would be quite happy for some to engage in the consumption of dog and cat meat, in states where it is lawful. What about the consumption of human placenta? I have never seen laws prohibiting such. Perhaps because there has not been a need as it would be unacceptable to most. But the consumption of human placenta is considered a delicacy in some cultures.

What about the masturbation of babies and toddlers which is done in some cultures.

What about cutting pieces off live animals, like turtles, for consumption.

There are many weird cultural practices in the world.

Dear Banjo,

Either you're pulling my leg here, simply
stirring, or you're
really somewhat obsessed with only the negative, and
weird practices, of some cultures.

Perhaps you should do a bit of research and find
out the high standards and the very selective criteria that
has to be met
for the granting of visas to this country by the
Immigration Department.

You will then see that your fears are not justified.

Cheers.

cont'd ...

Dear Banjo,

You mentioned only "weird" cultural practices previously.

However there already are quite a few
cultural practices in this country that some people
may find "weird." Things like eating snails, witchety grubs,
offal, hagus, brains, tongues and the list goes on.
As long as the practices are not against our laws, illegal,
or even socially unacceptable - people
have a right to practice them.

The following links may be of interest. They
highlight some cultural differences between us and
others:

http://www.convictcreations.com/culture/japan.html

http://www.convictcreations.com/culture/france.html

http://www.convictcreations.com/culture/australiaasia.html

http://www.convictcreations.com/culture/india.html

Imagine the wails of indignation from the right wing ratbags on the forum if 150 members of the Islamic clergy had been found guilty of pedophilia against hundreds of children in Australia. Imagine the howls of horror from the very same people if it was discovered these heinous crimes against our little ones had been aided and abetted by the hierarchy of that very same Islamic faith in Australia. The ultra right wingers calls for retribution would be totally and understandably justified, such Un-Australian behavior, should not and cannot be tolerated!
When such activity is pointed out on this very forum, (thank you SteeleRedux), not by members of the Islamic clergy, but by our very own Catholic pedophiles and their stinking leadership , how do our fellow posters from the ultra right react, with nothing more than silence. How about it Beach, nothing to say, or is the Catholic Church unlike The Greens, seen as a supporter of your brand of politics and best left alone and free of disparaging comment from the likes of you?

Foxy just reposting your earlier comment as I believe it encapsulates not only yours, but our fair and reasonable side of the argument.

<<I have stated in the past and continue to
do so now that what is necessary is to make it
quite clear to newcomers that they will be expected
to obey our laws and make an overriding commitment
to Australia, its values, and its people.

I can't make it any clearer for you.

Currently, all Australians are equal under the law.

This means that nobody should be treated differently
from anybody else because of their race, ethnicity,
or country of origin, because of their age, gender,
marital status or disability, or because of their
political or religious beliefs.

Government agencies and
independent courts are required to treat everyone
fairly. This means that you cannot refuse entry into
this country to people because of their race, colour,
religion, gender, marital status, etcetera. What you are
proposing goes against the very framework of the laws -
that we expect everyone to abide by.>>

Foxy, you did not mention my personal favorite and the 'piece de resistance' SWEETBREADS. My son gets them from his mate the butcher, I love em, eat a whole box on my own. Sheep brains run a close second Now how about this one, my partner "T" love the eyes from fish, not just any eyes but them big whopper eyes you get from fish like Snapper. back home Kina is a favorite, that is the internals of the sea urchin, along with the "custard" from crabs, she treats fresh kina as a real delicacy, myself, I can take em or leave em.

Paul,

"Imagine the wails of indignation from the right wing ratbags on the forum if 150 members of the Islamic clergy...."

I take your point but add that there are no Islamic clergy in Australia or anywhere else as Islam has no clergy.

About all Australians being equal under the law, that's the theory but not the practice, otherwise there would not be the disparity between the rate of incarceration of Aboriginals and the rest.
Furthermore Aboriginal Australians have Traditional Law considered, in some jurisdictions, when they are before the Court; this is not a consideration offered to other Australians.

On a lighter note, We were once enjoying a feed of prawns, in the public bar of the Crystal Palace Hotel in George St [back before it went up market].
We'd accumulated a fair heap of the front halves when up came a Maori bloke and asked if we were going to throw them out.On the affirmative he asked if he and his mates could have them as they were the best part.
We watched in some amazement as they crunched into the top bits.

Dear Paul,

Each of us have our eating habits and peculiarities.
Some things are an acquired taste. There's people
who eat insects, frog's legs, squid, octapus,
and so on. I don't particularly enjoy sushi - my
daughter-in-law loves it. Others like caviar (fish eggs),
it's too salty for my taste. And I could go on -
but none of it is against the law and that's the whole
point.

Banjo said;
How else can it be achieved? As yet nobody has put forward anything
practical. Have you an opinion on how it can be done?

What is impractical in burying a terrorist with a pig ?
Quite easy, buy a pig from the abattoir, or a side of pork from the
nutcher or some pork chops and put them in his shroud.

Quite simple, quite cheap and very very effective.
No moslem would do anything to risk that fate.

Yuyutsu put forward a suggestion with proved merit,
"One thing that Israel does, is to allow those of its citizens who prove to be good to have and carry weapons. Numerous terror attacks were stopped by ordinary armed Israeli civilians (as well as soldiers on leave) who happened to be there."

I would like to see the federal government get a professional comprehensive risk analysis and an independent comprehensive audit of the policies and administration of immigration.

Obviously, reactive treatment of the problem of poor selections and management is fraught with difficulties, some that can only be part-remedied by long term incarceration of the offender.

Risk management strategies that are proactive in treating risks are the only real solution and are far lower cost to the taxpayer.

It is highly likely that political interference over many years and different administrations has resulted in poor decisions and outcomes. Removal of appeals and making the decision of the Immigration department final as is the case in some other countries would reduce that problem and speed processing.

The Abbott government has taken an important initiatives to handle terrorists returning form overseas. The Muslim community needs to get behind Tony Abbott.

"I take your point but add that there are no Islamic clergy in Australia or anywhere else as Islam has no clergy."
Is Mise I take your point about clergy. I should make it clear, as an atheists I oppose ALL religions, including the Islamic religion, its all hooey in my book.
I would never accuse you of going "up market" I can see you are a man of sleaze just like myself. LOL on that one! I know what you are saying about prawn heads and Maori's they love the buggers, my partner included, she had a great feed of them on Xmas day. A while back we had a nosh up of Blue Swimmer Crabs, after "T" got through with them all that was left were the shells and the dead mans fingers, even those little eyes of theirs had disappeared. Even my old man, who was dinky di as 'Chips' Rafferty, loved his tripe, not any old kinda tripe but the honeycomb variety, particularly after he had a skin full at the pub, I don't mind it myself.

Beach, Israel is a police state in a war zone. We are not either. I know you strongly advocate such a society for Australia, where some of the citizenry are armed to the teeth, party members, and unquestioned (secret) police shootings are common place. A society where nightly disappearances are the norm, and descenters are dragged off for "reeducation". Unfortunately we Greens and other right thinking people, will always oppose your view of Utopia!
I note you will not address the Catholic clergy and the pedophilia issue raised by SteeleRedux. Yet you pontificate about Rotherham in the UK , but remain steadfastly silent on Catholicism in Australia. Why?

Dear Paul,

Having identified yourself as a member of the Greens who allegedly oppose the police state, could you please provide your party's view on the following current Australian laws?

1. Prohibition to ride a bicycle without wearing a pot over one's head.
2. Compulsory seat-belts.
3. Compulsory to comply with the orders of officers from the Australian Bureau of Statistics who knock on your door (penalty of up to one year imprisonment).
4. Compulsory voting.
5. Compulsory jury-duty.
6. Prohibition to purchase or import medications (for example antibiotics) without a doctor's prescription.
7. Prohibition on the sale of raw, unpasteurised milk.
8. Compulsory fire alarm in private homes (which usually contains radioactive materials).

Also, is your party aware and intends changing the fact that Australian prisons are one of the harshest in the world, Australia being one of only a few countries where prisoners are not allowed to bring in any personal items, be it books, clothes, memorabilia, musical instruments, or even their own toothbrush (the only exception is a rosary for Catholics)? That mothers of Australian prisoners are not allowed to bring a birthday cake to their imprisoned sons? Are you aware that prisoners in Israel, including Arab terrorists have many more privileges than Australians and routinely take correspondence university courses, denied to their Australian counterparts, often leaving jails with a doctorate? Are you aware that Israeli prisoners who are well-behaved and not a danger to the public start receiving periodic weakend-leaves after serving 1/3 of their term, something that Australian prisoners can never dream of, who unlike Israeli prisoners can never even receive a few hours' leave to attend a family wedding?

This is just the tip of the iceberg - is your party committed to stop Australia being a police state and can you confirm that if you party comes to power it will not introduce new compulsions and prohibitions?

Yuyutsu, The Greens always take a responsible position on all government laws and regulations and how they are enforced. As you have listed 8 items of concern, covering both State and federal matters, although I would not refer to them as trivial, some are rather obscure. We are always mindful of civil liberties and the encroachment by government into our hard won rights and freedoms. Some like the 'pot on head' issue as well as the 'seat belt' issue were introduced as a concern for ones safety. I distinctly recall that in NSW the bicycle helmet law was introduced after a child was killed not wearing one, and the enforcement has become some what lax these days and no doubt will be raised again next time a child is killed not wearing a helmet. I'm sure the 'milk thing' is a public health issue and there are always pro's and cons as there is with the 'fire alarms' and ' antibiotics'.
The prison issue is of great concern to The Greens and our spokesperson in NSW David Shoebridge has raied several matters in relation to NSW prisons in the state parliament. Items 4 and 5 I do not believe are compulsory, but not being an experts on all these diverse matter you raise I stand to be corrected. Contact with the Greens spokespersons on various matters is freely available on the parties websites.

Shoebridge is an attention-seeking, headline-hunting ass (there is another spelling that is also appropriate for this fool),

http://www.theherald.com.au/story/2709479/shoebridge-under-fire-after-resignation-call/

Dear Paul,

Practically anything that we do has an impact, pro's and con's, on our health and on our safety, so those who want to stretch that argument could claim for example that religion should be banned because it has (in their view) a detrimental effect on my mental health; that in fact any non-conforming thought should be legally banned because it's "unhealthy" or "unsafe".

The question is, let's even suppose that indeed a specific action of mine, is detrimental to my health and safety - what right has the state and its government(s) to ban it given that I never entrusted my health and/or safety to them?

The next trick in the government's bag is to turn my personal health and safety into a matter of "public health" or "public safety". How come? Just because I happen to be a member of the public? Raw milk is not contagious and given that no allegations of fraud were ever suggested and those who drink it know exactly what they take, it can only affect those who knowingly drink it.

I would expect a party that claims to be "always mindful of civil liberties and the encroachment by government into our hard won rights and freedoms" to have strong and uncompromising principles in this matter, in the same way as the Greens currently have such uncompromising principles on environmental issues.

(then we also have the very interesting question of what happens when environmental principles clash with principles of civil liberties)

I am encouraged to learn that the Greens are greatly concerned about the conditions in prisons: someone should indeed be there to stop that cruelty. Why only in NSW? Isn't this a problem for the rest of Australia as well?

Underfuhrur Beach, David Shoebridge is an elected member of the New South Wales Parliament. Unlike your mentor and leader, the criminally insane Jim Saleam. Your rabid rantings concerning The Greens fortunately are of no concern, as you, like Saleam, have no political standing what so ever, simply viewed as the rights ratbag element with those most radically extrest views.

Yuyutsu, what you say concerning raw milk gets no argument from me, In fact I drank such milk as a child with no detrimental effect. Like that issue there are thousands of such issues, fluoridation of the water supply, food additives, etc, the list goes on. It is impossible for any political party to have a "policy" covering ever single issue, but as issues enter the public arena its important for political parties to take a stand where required. With the prison issue it is a state matter as prisons generally fall under their control, as I am in NSW, I am familiar with matters in this state, but others in other states are also engaged in this an other issues at a state level. That is the only reason I made reference to NSW.
The team of 10 Green Senators do an outstanding job of putting forward our parties alternative view when it comes to matters of a federal nature. Not always popular with some but important that our views are put forward as part of the democratic process. Unfortunate if some were in power that alternative view would soon be silenced, right Beach!

Beach, me old buddy, Paul Broad, a Liberal Party lackey, with a sell it off at any price mentality. The Colongra Power Station at Doyalson has been sold to Snowy Hydro for $234 million, a price that is less than half its building cost of 5 years ago. Who is the buyer of this cheap cheap power station, Snowy Hydro, a mob Broad heads up, a business which on the 23 July 2013 appointed Broad Managing Director & CEO. The same Paul Broad was the buyer of the corrupt Nick Greiner's old house in Sydney, Greiner appointed Broad boss of his fire sale outfit Infrastructure NSW, jobs for the boys ah!
AND, we know the Liberal Parties track record in Newcastle since obtaining government in 2011 ICAC investigations, MP's resigning, cash everywhere, uncontested by-elections. Hummm.
AND, know Bob Hawes conflict of interest, the article posted by you speaks for itself. Dave just keep up the good work!

I have to wonder why Muslims don't appear to want to go to Japan, China, Vietnam etc.

Let's face it, for these people our way of life is just as foreign to them as the previously mentioned countries. Our religious beliefs have also been amended since the 14th century to the point where Catholics and Protestants have no longer continued bloody battles over their different faiths.

It appears that the Muslim religion hasn't changed since the 600's, so isn't it time they also overhauled their thinking too, and realise this is the 21st century, and it's time for peace, not constant conflict. I understand our puppet masters realise war is good for certain businesses, but I would think that the man in the street has very different needs. First should be duty to family, then community, then country. We need cohesion and individual's pride to return, which would dent our present nanny status, and deter those looking for us to support them from the moment they arrive here.

I would humbly suggest that the promise of virgins has to also be outdated. Just how many virgins can be left for martyrs to enjoy after all these centuries.
Muslim kids are indoctrinated from the start that they must memorise and follow the Koran to the letter. I'd call that brainwashing of vulnerable children at their most impressionable age.