O Sung,
Well at least we have the killer's writings to remember him by:
http://web.archive.org/web/20140429125748/http://www.sheikhharon.com/letter-to-pm-tony-abbott-1nov13_redacted.pdf
Oh golly O Sung! Do the language and themes used by Sheikh Haron remind you of any of the writing on this forum? I wonder where he got his ideas from because the style is very similar to, say Green Left Weekly or the official website of the fourth international, WSWS.org

Hi JAY of MELBOURNE...

You say at the outset '...STEELE is already a Dhimmi...' ? I'm sorry, I don't know what a 'Dhimmi is ? Is it someone who aids in building a Mosque or prayer hall ? Furthermore JAY, I'm at a complete loss, I've never watched a show named 'Grand Theft Auto' either ? Though I may well be dense, but there're some TV or movie shows I generally don't watch, so I don't recognise their titles nor their genre ? Concerning justification for employing torture by the CIA ? Well I can't possible say exactly what type of torture they may've employed, obviously it's come back to bite 'em well and truly on the foot ! Sometimes, it's not the offence itself, it's the fact that it's been found out !

I note I've no support for my defence of the judicious use of torture in this particular topic, that's cool I can live with that. And I'll admit at first glance I appear a monster, a coward, and any other descriptive word some may wish to use ? Again, that's cool.

However, I would ask all my detractors, what are the alternatives ? When the information the authorities urgently seek, needs to be found.

O Sung,
Nope, none of your views make you a bad person.

STEELIE...Do I detect a little fit of pique coming from you ? Am I to understand your levels of comprehension are a little challenged too ? Why on earth would Mr CHANEY bother about 'a no account' like you STEELIE ? Or are you concerned of the ever present spectre of WAVE ?

Seriously, I'm very glad to see that you're finally recognising the efficacy of much of what HASBEEN has to say ! Should you care to swallow a bit of that immense 'E G O' of yours, you'd learn a vast amount from his pragmatic and fundamental approach, he has to life.

So for what it's worth, I fully endorse your new effort to emulate much of HASBEENS practical philosophy on life issues. Just one small tip if you don't mind ? Listen to him, and learn from him, and I'm sure his wise counsel will awaken you to a much brighter, more challenging mode of thinking, that's so far, managed to elude you.

So three years ago, a military academy in another country eh ? I am impressed, as likewise, they must have been ! What a surprise, I didn't know you spoke Farsi STEELIE ? Why on earth didn't you pursue it ? I understand, perhaps Iran does get pretty hot almost year round I believe. That also explains your predilection for encouraging the total Islamization of Australia ! That's naughty, very naughty of you, STEELIE ? Or is it a case of; 'All talk and no walk' emmm ?

Hi (again) JAY of MELBOURNE...

Best be careful my friend, the company you keep can cause you a measure of intellectual pain, particularly from 'SUPERMAN', aka the man of 'STEELE', a legend in his own lunch hour ! You're right, nobody who contributes to OLO or the Forum, is either totally right or completely wrong ? It's rather, all to be found in the 'fine print', and within the 'interpretation' of the Topic. It's not dissimilar to that of jurisprudence or constitutional law. Where upon first glance, it appears intricately complicated ? Keep the faith JAY !

Calling each other monsters, cowards, liars, etc. serves no purpose at all. Let’s assume that we all have different opinions but are doing our best to do and say what we think is right. We including me tend to read what agrees with us and assume that what we read that reinforces our viewpoint is more likely to be true. It is reasonable to doubt what we read even if it agrees with our thoughts.

Different categories of moral philosophy that all the arguments so far. The arguments against torture can be classed as following the Solzhenitsyn Principle. The most important thing is to preserve our personal morality regardless of the consequences. Tell the truth in all cases even though it may lead to harm. Solzhenitsyn said, ‘Let the lie come into the world even dominate the world, but not through me.’ I have taken the position in this discussion that torture is wrong under any circumstances. Maybe I’m wrong. Actually the Senate Report did not cite any instance where torture resulted in anything positive. However, it might have been possible that torture did result in something positive, and it might be harmful to reveal the exact case.

I believe it was Jay of Melbourne who maintained that torture is to get the subject to say what the torturer wants him or her to say.

O sung wu, who I think is honourable, brave and conscientious, wrote, “When the information the authorities urgently seek, needs to be found.” He obviously trusts the authorities to decide what’s needed. I don’t. I think both Abbott and Shorten are moral idiots. I think that some information that the authorities seek may be none of their business. I think it is good to question authority. In the USA the government wanted the librarians to keep records on what library patrons read. The society of librarians refused. IMHO good for them.

In approving of torture to prevent crime in spite of the inhumanity of torture we are following the dictum that the end justifies the means. That is another kind of morality.

continued