Hasbeen,

There are a ton of practical tests. Perhaps the biggest and broadest is the fact that crime rates overall in most Western countries have continued to fall since the ‘70s and are lower now than they were even 80 years ago, if you want to go by the more stable measurement of homicide rates.

Why you would bring up Malaysia, I don’t know. They have a high crime rate.

Overcrowding is only one factor that can influence crime rates, it can be negated by other factors such as the omnipresence of police in the small area. This is as silly as your suggestion once that poverty couldn’t be a factor in crime because rural areas don’t have much crime. Crime is the result of a complex interplay between multiple factors that must converge for it to take place.

<<It is since we started applying their theory that our problems escalated to an amazing degree. Time we got back to the techniques that worked for centauries.>>

This gave me a laugh. The old techniques were failing miserably, that's why we changed them. The only reason things appear - to the more ignorant - to be getting worse is because media reporting of crime has ramped up ten-fold; we’re now more aware of certain crimes (e.g. paedophilia, domestic violence); we’re better at detecting crime; courts have become more punitive - especially with violent crime; community corrections have been a double-edged sword in that they now give police/judges the ability to put an offender through the system when they would have once been let go due to the severity of imprisonment; feminism has seen women sentenced more equally to men; the list goes on and on.

Every generation has thought that things were getting worse and that the end was nigh. It seems to be in our DNA; a coping mechanism for those of us who are about to check out, perhaps.

runner,

I’d have to check those stats, they don't gel well with your smacking theory, though. Either way, that’s not the reason for the increase in prison populations (see above).

As a civil libertarian and member of Amnesty International I deplore all acts of violence. I see no value in corporal punishment, be it the institutionalised violence inflicted on children by such groups as religious zealots. The past practices of Catholicism in their Australian schools is a prime example of institutionalised violence masquerading as discipline, and incidentally giving self gratification to the perpetrators, could there be an element of self gratification in this argument? I also oppose state sanctioned violence in all its forms, including so called corporal punishment as a form of retribution against the criminal.
AJ Philips has put forward a strenuous argument against this state sanctioned violence of corporal punishment. Of course some of the 'Usual Suspects' on the forum, who are not adverse to all forms of state violence, the legalised murderous acts of militarism, and capital punishment, along with the lesser barbarism of corporal punishment will never agree. These people see these violent acts as a necessary punitive response to those they fear, have or will, violate their thinly veneered ordered society.. 'Get em' before they get us!". All I can say is violence perpetuates violence! I would have thought the "christian" on the forum would seek the solace of his bible on this subject, not so, he is as violent as the rest.

Dear Paul,

<<As a civil libertarian and member of Amnesty International I deplore all acts of violence.>>

That's admirable and if we were saintly, then we would turn the other cheek when attacked by crime.

The problem is, we are not saints so we don't turn the other cheek and there are no indications that we will as a group become saints in the near future.

Instead, we currently use imprisonment, which is extremely violent and horrific. If it were up to me, I would rather absorb the pain of the stick to retain my freedom and keep away from the horrors of prison.

<< I would rather absorb the pain of the stick to retain my freedom and keep away from the horrors of prison.>> totally understandable Yuyutsu. That does not justify any goodness in the stick. I would accept prison over Crucifixion. That is not to say prison is good, crucifixion is bad, just the relative horror of one against the other.

I'm confused by this statement AJ, it seems to be contradictory:

"Of the three key elements that describe the law's ability to control behaviour (the swiftness, severity, and the certainty of punishment), only the swiftness and severity of punishment have been found to be effective deterrents. The severity of punishment plays a statistically insignificant role in controlling behaviour, and that’s the only element that caning would satisfy by itself."

How can 'severity of punishment' be an effective deterrent and play an insignificant role in controlling behaviour?

Personally I think any form of public corporal punishment or public execution is totally barbaric. However I am not against the death penalty away from public view especially if it's carried out swiftly, as opposed to keeping them on death row for 10 years+. I would support the death penalty for murder, rape, paedophiles, violent home invasions of totally innocent people, and any premeditated violent acts that are inherently evil (e.g. those involving torture, prolonged sexual assaults, etc). Going one step further, where an offender (of one of the above crimes) is caught in the act... dispense with a trial and shoot them on the spot.

My proposal for deterrents may seem silly and will never happen but here it is - (1) take the TVs out of the prison cells; perhaps losing this privilege will be the biggest deterrent of all. (2) make the guilty serve the full sentence; (3) increase the lengths of the sentence exponentially in relation to the number of previous convictions; (4) after three felony convictions lock them away forever; (5) keep prisoners separated so they cannot abuse each other and so they can at least feel safe; (6) in each prison cell of the prisoners with 10+ years sentence, provide a small breakable glass window (like a fire alarm) and behind the window a straw for which the prisoner can suck up a cyanide tablet if they no longer want to be there.

Hip <<personally I think any form of public corporal punishment or public execution is totally barbaric. However I am not against the death penalty away from public view especially if it's carried out swiftly>> but if its not then that's okay too. Then there is the list of a couple of hundred exceptions from murder, rape, right down to jaywalking.

and this is a gem <<where an offender (of one of the above crimes) is caught in the act... dispense with a trial and shoot them on the spot.>>

"Our Fearless Leader has announced that last evening the opposition leader was found committing the most vile and contemptuous criminal act against a fellow citizen. Fearless Leader wishes to assure the community that immediate and appropriate action was taken, after the opposition leader was caught committing a barbarous act, details of which are being withheld to protect the sensibilities of women, children and the elderly. The heinous criminal was immediately executed, by firing squad as per the law. Societies security has one more been maintained, justice has been done, thanks to our Fearless Leader and the vigilance of the secret police."