Ludwig,

"When you look at the total spectrum of pedophilia / child-molestation / child-touching offences, and you look at the uncertainties in the Harris affair, then surely you can see that maybe…just maybe, he shouldn’t be outrightly condemned for his actions and have his life and legacy destroyed as a result."

Which "uncertainties", Ludwig?

Beside the mitigatory factors that "you" are suggesting - which aren't "uncertainties" at all.

There was no "uncertainty" according to Rolf Harris.

According to him "The were all making it up."

That's "all" making it up.

So while you've been bouncing around attempting to ascribe all kinds of mitigation for Harris's actions...the man himself realised that the allegations were "beyond the pale". He knew if the allegations were believed by the jury that there could be "no" mitigating factors. Not for a grown man to be indecently dealing with minors of his own free will.

That's why his only defence was that "all" those testifying were making it up. The only other defence he had in support of that (and which was shot down spectacularly during the trial) was that he'd never been to the place where the crime was alleged to have occurred.

So Harris and his legal team knew that if he was found guilty, there would be no mitigation...which is why they stuck to the line that none of it ever happened. Implicit in that defence was that all of Harris's accusers were liars.

That's the kind of man you are defending and attempting to provide mitigation for.

I think overall, considering the subject mater, that this discussion has been reasonably civil between us.

Dear Ludwig,

When it comes to the sexual abuse of children
there is only a hardline view that has to be taken.
Nothing excuses this behaviour. Nothing!
And nobody - no matter how famous - is above the law.
And that is the way it should be.

Rolf Harris is not a vulnerable target. He brought
this upon himself - and got away with it for decades.
And rightly his reputation has little hope of ever
recovering. He does not deserve sympathy. His victims
do!

As I've stated previously - we have not yet even begun
to calculate the damage that his actions have done
to his victims. Mr Harris misused his position.
And he deserves everything (and more) that he's
getting.

He certainly does not desrve any sympathy!

Ludwig, yes we do go back a long way. Hence my determination to try and talk this out with you.

"I think Rolf has copped a very raw deal here." http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6462#192004
"But alas, it seems that no amount of emphasis on this is going to cut through the polarised thinking of some people" http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6462#192713

Have you considered that it may be far worse than has been to court so far? There may have been victims too badly impacted by his actions to yet be at a point where they could deal with the trauma of being a witness. That others may not have coped with the long term impact and not survived to make a complaint. We don't know about the latter but just as it's possible to try and repaint all his actions in a benign or less serious light there are also opportunities to believe that his actions were in fact far worse than has been proven. That's a pointless game.

There are lines adults should never cross in the types of situations were Harris offended. He repeatedly chose to cross those lines, with a variety of children. There was no case of confusion about the children's age, no room to view the touching as an accidentally misplaced hand during horse play with a child, no confusion about which parts of the children's anatomy Harris was seeking out.

Do you understand that there is nothing about the interactions Harris should have had with those children that made it OK for his hands to go anywhere near their genitals? That there was nothing about those interactions that made a legitimate reason for him to reach under a skirt and touch any part of undies let alone as noted by the judge the vagina, covered by undies or not?

Do you understand that in interactions with children that it's the adults legal responsibility to restrain themselves even if they do feel led on sexually?

R0bert

I'm not sure that I should have let this thread through. Certainly some of the discussion has been extremely unpleasant to read.

I can't believe that anyone could try to justify any of the acts that Harris has been found guilty of. My only doubt during the whole process was whether he was being falsely accused. The evidence is far too overwhelming for that to be the case.

Harris is a similar age to my mother, so I remember being a child at the time when these things were happening. Society certainly took these types of crimes seriously, but didn't necessarily deal with them via police and the courts. A good thumping or moving the offender away was a more likely punishment, but Harris does not seem to have faced even that.

Sentencing him isn't just a matter of punishing him for his crimes, it also performs an educative function for all those who might (incredibly) think betraying the trust that is placed in adults in their relations with children by sexually abusing a child, but stopping short of full intercourse, is somehow not too serious.

It is serious, and has always been serious. And these days, not matter who you are it will ruin your career when it comes out. If you're even vaguely tempted, don't do it. It is definitely not worth it.

However, I think erasing Harris from his various awards etc. is going too far. We should leave him there as an object lesson at how easy it is for society to fail in its duty.

Graham,

I don't think you erred in letting the thread through.

I might say that a few of the posters (not including Ludwig, even though I'm intrigued by his view) have been a little difficult to read because their posts were "over the top".

I think also that the subject matter evolved as more detail became available after Harris's sentencing. I must say I initially balked at posting some of the more intimate detail of the judge's sentencing remarks because I thought they were too graphic for the forum. However, others posted them, including Ludwig who forensically went through them in order to employ them as mitigation for Harris's actions. I then joined in with the renewed discussion.

I agree with your post, Graham...summed up well.

i have/no doubt\he~[harass],has been pulled up\a few times
[and even\that people.\have officially complained/but in the end didnt proceed/of course\these issue are separate.

my big concern/after i-was awoken/too early\was\that classic victim guilt/[there are incidents\that lead into/these things/in my case for xmass..i got..a microscope/and having learned.\about sperma/decided to check out/a sample/the suggestion is\the uncle caught wind/0f the childish experiment;..CURIOSITY

damm caps..there is no point..in thinking to\reason about the unreasonable/these people dont think\like we do[as i\said my family dont touch each\other ever..dont hug\kissie kissie/no contact/that perverted uncle..is the only one\to ever touch/me..its the shock/of contact.

im noting..this gay swimmer..is on tv/he was..a very cute 'boy'
he looks very young/when he begun...which brings us\to/the likes of swimming coatches/and adults..going on trips\with kids.

[cause/they\love;kids..honestly
[thats-what;..pedophile;..means]

rally THERE IS..SO MUCH LIKELYHOOD/probability/WE WILL GET\MOLESTERD
that/kids\need be prepared[like on abc\just before/there was..a story about woman/sex-hassas*ed..in brazil?..who get\molestation/wistling;being-followed every day/

they began thinking\about not dressing/like streetwalkers.
and the harrasment\begins a..puberty.

OR/HOW..ABOUT;AFRIKA
where/they rape-kids;to..'cure;-aids
but/no..were/talking-about..get~ya/hand..off

some tribes\allow kids.to BE KIDS
others say .it WILl DROP OFF\IF YOU DARE LOoK..AT IT
IM NOT SURE/even\THAT SiNGLE MOTHERS\SHOULD BE ALLOWED*TO RAISE BOYS
[one i know\has made life hel for her kids t\he spitting image of their father]

life is sick/this*is satans realm
we rejected heaven/to be incarnated[one-life*term>]here
there are\no nnocents/hitler was born as babe
he rebirTHED..AS A BABE/will he do\the same/who cares/

WHO CARES*

THING IS IF..*YOU*THINK EVIL
you attact evil/

see tv witces /chanting a spell/
its the same/like you\are what you love*..
to eat/OR\INthinking it..THE THOUGHT;ALONE..atracts the ones
pleased\energized/[OK*empowered]..at the thought\your mind is emoting

the higher the person/the more joy\they \[demons]
get...in bringing us/mortals/down.but we know/that
thou/we may walk.through satans realm/we shalt not fear .no evil.

and saying/the elites running\this two party autocracy/via supplying a endless supply\of kids is just\the way it is/its ok to know/.its not ok..to ignore what you know,

politricks is way dirtier
than any of us..can know.

and sex\is political..but
fondling children is moral-perversion
A MORAl peversion/we are soon/to..evolve away..;..from

from/the-riddler*