oug, are you playing games or do you genuinely think Harris was checking to see if nappies needed changing?

There is a concept called reasonable doubt used in western legal system. No sane person could confuse Harris's actions with that of a parent changing a nappy (or any if the other actions parents, doctors etc sometimes need to take) to care for the needs of children.

I've got no respect for the kind of spin and contortions implied in that part of your post. Its dishonest BS.

I agree that the hype around men and children has been badly over played in some circles. As a single parent I noticed how adament my sons friends mums generally were that play dates would happen at their place, not mine.

On the other hand I've often taken my partners kids on outings without my partner and never encountered negative reactions out and about despite being an older male caring for children.

Negative stereotypes about men and children won't be helped by those of you claim poor comprehension of the boundaries around appropriate touch (and other interaction) and inappropriate touch etc with children. There are some complexities at the boundaries, medical emergencies etc but for all of the situations raised so far in regard to Harris and all of my dealings with children other than my own those complexities have never been an issue.

R0bert

Don't be so puerile, OUG. Cleaning up babies after "pooping" isn't particularly different for either gender. I've had one of each - and for both a good wipe is sufficient. There is no requirement to go probing any further on a female baby...which appears to be the ridiculous point you are trying to make.

....

Ludwig,

You appear to be getting cross with me because I refuse to come around to your way of thinking.

Problem is that I can't countenance why you are going to so much trouble to mitigate Harris's actions...except that you have long admired his public persona and are having trouble dealing with the fact that "such a nice guy" has been convicted of such crimes.

Whether it's you partially blaming the victim - or you complaining about the sentence severity, it seems you hop about coming up with any and every excuse for the fact that a grown man purposely committed these offences.

And that's after you were apprised of the detail. Before that, according to you, he was just being a risque groper.

It's just been one long episode of you not liking the fact that "Rolf Harris" got pinged for such crimes - and seeking, therefore, to grasp any mitigating factor your imagination can come up with.

And you criticise me because I'm not buying any of them.

Sheesh!

RObert is right that we are now repeating our arguments so it's probably no use going on much longer.

To All

Harris has done the crime, and now he must do the time. I have confidence in the British legal system to believe Harris got a fair trial, the verdict was correct and the sentence was appropriate. Despite all the media hype, and all the sensationalism applied to the case, which is understandable given Harris is a high profile person. To its credit the British legal system was able to divorce itself from the hype surrounding the case, and acted in a clinical fashion, ensuring Harris got a very fair trial indeed. I am please that Harris got that fair trial he was entitled to, and that once again justice has been served.

R0bert, you are another long-time good OLO buddy. Twice as long as for Poirot. Going on for nine years now.

Firstly, I say to you the much-repeated bottom line of my argument – that there is a possibility that things are not as they seem and that other interpretations of a less harsh manner regarding Harris’ wrongdoings are possible, and very much worth considering.

You wrote:

<< Step back and have loom at what you are doing here please. You are so desperate to place better look to Harris's actions that you are doing exactly what you accuse others of in the opposite direction. >>

Ok, I have stepped back and had a good hard close look at my approach to this issue.

My assessment is…. that I really am just gently and calmly putting forward suggestions as to how things could be viewed somewhat differently. And it seems that some people on this thread just completely can’t handle that.

I would hazard to say that perhaps others can, and have simply chosen not to comment further, as they can see the hard time Ludwig is getting from Poirot and company, let alone the utter absurdity and defamation that Jay/Nhoj is pumping out, and they are loathe to get embroiled in that. Maybe. Who knows.

<< Your determination to defend Harris… >>

I do find this sort of statement incredible. I was very much aware of the way that many people think – in very black and white terms, which is why I keep abundantly repeating my motive – to suggest that there are other possible interpretations of this whole affair, and NOT to exonerate Harris.

But alas, it seems that no amount of emphasis on this is going to cut through the polarised thinking of some people (No offence R0bert, but crikey I do find it very frustrating, and really quite amazing that I can get no traction here with intelligent articulate skilled debaters such as you and Poirot).

continued

Please; there are shades of grey here, or points on a spectrum, as with all manner of things. The judge had to very carefully assess a whole host of things and to decide accordingly what penalty to apply on a spectrum from nil to extremely harsh.

The judge has made a call, based on all factors. But he could very easily have made quite a different decision about the length of Harris’ sentence, if he’d seen things even just a little bit differently.

He could very easily have declared that his sentence be twenty years. Or he could have decided that there is a lot of uncertainty about the exact veracity of some of the claims put forward in court, and declared on this basis that he get a non-custodial sentence.

Views differ enormously on this.

All I am saying is that one should have an open mind.

When you look at the total spectrum of pedophilia / child-molestation / child-touching offences, and you look at the uncertainties in the Harris affair, then surely you can see that maybe…just maybe, he shouldn’t be outrightly condemned for his actions and have his life and legacy destroyed as a result.

It is fascinating that every person that I spoken to about this whole affair is further towards the view that Harris has been too severely dealt with than I am. Not one person, who has any interest in the subject, has expressed views in line with you or Poirot.

I think that there are lots of people out there who feel similarly to what I do, as is evident with some of the early comments on this thread, but who are just not willing to get embroiled in an inevitably narky online conversation with those who won’t consider anything other than a very hardline view.

topic is sickening/but in the sceme of things isnt like someone burnt down yo\r house or stole your car/or lobbied that govt tax you for smoking but not drinking..

look there..are\real evils-in the world/things govt do
that need.the guilt/shame/to follow the party line

we hear of\these child-solders kilLing\raping
AMPUTATING..and we can forgive them?U

bt not\an..old foggie/whos best-aTe\sleeps..with the dead
guys/the in crowd=is=..the in crow\because*the MASTERS have/the dirt on them.

get=that=as long as\those/..in power think
their l0ving of children..is worse..than stealing\the peoplES ASETS/PEACE-OF/MIND,..STEALING-US\blind by lies..

[i have met two of them]..remember//and they were fine/playing the game[EVENTUALLY/ITS/just,like\the casting couch..to be a bigger crimethan stealing\the nations/pension-funds[like bill\clinton did]

its about hOw..we laughed/AT..that rogue]kelly]..that killed two coppers..but lock-up and get upset..by fanny petting..[look;my uncle masterbated me/at 13/..it opened-up my eyeS/i\havnt trusted adults ever since/point being..it made me\the scum-bag..i am

SO YES\its eVil/i have..punished my selF..\for..oVer a/HALF-century
but..i now/Know/..too ..any by far\..are in hell simply/because they couldnt..*let it go..[willingly\remain/victims][n0t/my-fault;its~theirs.]

/all this carry-on/its\time we moved on.

how about[THE-killing 42 kids[in israel]..this-time..
00 last-time[the secret\of life/Im not seeing\the same vengence/passion..in ending wars.

think to ask why?
the media gives you're herrings..[LAUGH/..NOW-CRY]
here worry/about\this fanny petting\not kids being disemboweled and irradiated with cancer causing heavy metals in god-hole lands

[lets honor mass murders/?\by loCking-up kiddy fiddlers
-KILL/BUT-DONT..TOUCH.?!

i think the big-thing is/did you inhale/ENJOY[OR/ANNOY]
well thats..stockholms sin/drone[SEE PSHYCS]

[im sick of/reading
/hithe kiddy porn/like petting her bits/..RIGHT;HERE.

just quoting this junk*is sick
hi..s.problem\not-yours

ok a mindless fool touched ya up
and the kid reminds you of it..[it wasnt the kids]NOR;YOUR\fault]

sex is a issue/if groan-up woman..did it..[these/imbecilic/sic*idiots wouldnt look twice\at kids..but/if yOUR BUTT UGLY..LIKE FERGUSON.OR PRETTY-personally repulsive\like roffle*harrass

look
if you dont forgive/you join them..in hell
most in hell simply couldnt forgive..[as far/as\moral-sins go]
your un*forgiving of yourself\becomes the bigger sin/

screw the lot of em.
only/that-we/reallY WANT-]TO/KNOW]..SEEPS-IN.

im so over thinking/about this rubbish any Further
its only post limits/why the hell do we need kidS on tv..at all?

think about that~!
someones getting tittilated/or fixated
makE these\TV-children..wear day clothing not/SEXED-UP/sleep ware