I have touched on this in another thread, but with our jobs market looking shaky , my question is, do we put a stop to 457's and force employers to train our own people, or do we just sit back and watch our world implode.

My thoughts are that perhaps it's time to protect OUR JOBS, for our people.

What are your thoughts.

I am usually not big on govt regulation but I think there should be stronger requirements/incentives for employers to develop and/or recognize local talent.

I think the number of unemployed is much larger than the official figures would suggest and *generally* employers are spoilt for choice.

The feed back that I am getting from friends and associates is that employers are acting arrogantly: not notifying candidates of outcomes; refusing to give post interview feedback; making snap decisions on the basis of superficialities.

It's human nature, when you get a large number of candidates chasing a much smaller number of jobs you get an arms race where requirement are ratcheted-up --often unnecessarily. I have myself --and I haven't been looking -- seen ridiculous things like a sandwich hand needing to have the minimum of an Arts degree.

rehctub,
if we do away withe 457 Visa from whom do you then expect anyone to learn anything about work ?

there is more to life than working for..money
trickled out by capitalists..many..were called..few were chosen
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6040#178238

the harvest is heavy
the workers few

look like the/boss must help..out
if we cant figure out a workable..work-life balance

3 days shall you work
4 days shall you rest

all..the best..will return..once govt takes back..
GOVT CONTROL//over..money supply..not the money/cjhanger..at the fed

tax income..not wage
[its NOT..the same thing]

unions protecting their obscene wages have created much of the mess. The 457 system however should be wound back as companies have used it get cheap labour and put Aussies out of work.

Runner,
As have senior under performing management on obscene salaries.
I suspect all parties are to blame and this is where we need leaders with vision and ability to turn the country around. Going back to past practices will not work. Today's world is very different to that of just a few years ago.
We desperately need forward thinking people not the hacks currently occupying the seats in Canberra.
Oz has changed for all time, we need a new approach not some warmed over thinking from the past.
SD

Liberals used job loss as a weapon.
Surely by now they must be nearing the point they can not longer blame Labor?
Now Holden is gone Quantas too soon but our grain growers got a win.
Or in the long run was it a loss?

Butch, you say Perhaps it's time to protect OUR JOBS. I say Perhaps it's time to protect us from TONY ABBOTT. You think Labor were a bad dream when it came to managing the economy, this mob will prove to be a nightmare!

Surely by now they must be nearing the point they can not longer blame Labor?
Belly,
I'm afraid that point is still several decades away. Since the Goaf ALP Governments have caused damage that'll still be felt for another generation if not two.
Sadly, many people have such an immeasurable lack of foresight that there simply is no chance to hasten any recovery from so much wrong done by people who believed they were doing so right.

Many of these believed they had the answers.
http://m.harunyahya.com/tr/works/581/Communism-In-Ambush/chapter/56/The-history-of-Bolshevik-savagery

Oh dear Paul, it must be hard being a brain washed labor supporter, especially given so manyof your mates have jumped ship.

Take a good hard look around and see just what a mess your beloved labor caused.

As Indi quite rightly says, we will be suffering from their incompetence for decades to come.

Belly, I Have asked this question of you before, as usual, you failed to respond, so here it is again...

Q, given our curent position, left to us by labor, do you think we should continue to support an industry (car makers) who have no chance in he'll of surviving and, if you do, for how long?

Care to respond, or just avoid the question.

Are you also aware that the average assembly worker at Holden will walk away with between $300,000 and $500,000, who wouldn't want to loose that job.

Are you also aware that if a Holden worker tests posetive for drugs, that rather than being sacked, they get a month off WITH FULL PAY for counciling.

Are you also aware that one in seven is a union rep, as opposed to one in 26 in comparable workplaces.

The unions have made a right mess of that agreement, to a point that we have lost one of our greatest assets and, rather than point blame at the cause, the unions, you blame Abbott for not throwing more tax payers money into a black hole.

I thought you were smarter than that.

rehctub,
300 Grand ? Give me that money now & I'll vacate my job for someone younger.

"Oh dear Paul, it must be hard being a brain washed labor supporter, especially given so many of your mates have jumped ship.
Take a good hard look around and see just what a mess your beloved labor caused."

Butch, sorry to disappoint, but I'm a supporter and active member of the even more hated GREENS. I was so pleased to see your man Tony get elected, as I believed Australia needed another dose of the incompetent conservatives and true to expectation, so far they haven't disappointed. According to 'Newspoll' no new government has ever plummeted so fast as these galahs have, they are going down like a lead balloon. I note the conserves no longer mention polls.

"I'll vacate my job for someone younger." Indi, me old grandpa is only 98, does he fit the bill? Since Abbott will soon start some "pensioner bashing" can grandpa have the job, then again he might chuck it in when the workers get another dose of "Tory Work Choices" Abbott style.

Ok Paul, I withdraw that comment then.

As for Tony implementing work choices, do you honestly think we can retain the current working pays and conditions, especially the penalty rates for the likes of hospitality?

More importantly, do you think people have the right to work nights, weekends for less if it suits, or should we continue to make some people unemployable, example being a mum, who wants to work in a caffee on weekends, so dad can have some one on one with the kids, but she can't get a job because the boss has to employ some non coffee drinking, face book dependent kid.

This is where the IR system is wrong, no flexibility between what is essentially two adults.

As for the polls, I don't care because I know that practicly every problem Tony encounters has been caused by the labor/green alliance and usually suffers from lack of funding, why, because you lot wasted so much and achieved so little and left behind either a mess, or unfinished, unfunded and unworkable policies.

You must remember how popular the labor/green alliance was back in 07/8, then they went on the record the greatest waste and mismanagement period in our history.

So the polls mean nothing, and people have good memories.

I hope Tony does call a DD election.

I'll try to be unbiased and as fair as I can. For as long as I can recall Australia has been "blessed" with reasonably good government from both sides of politics. Fundamentally there is not a huge difference between Labor and The Coalition. The differences tend to be confined to the periphery and never go to the core of the system. Change is concerned with emphases of policy and not fundamental change in political direction. Labor in office done little to change Australian society, there was no radical reforms, nor do I expect any under Abbott. But we'll argue the point on such things as taxes and industrial relations etc until the cows come home, for no other reason than we like to.
The Greens are not a radical party either, they fit the mold of the Australian political system as well as anyone else, with an emphases on the environment and social justice that alone does not make them radical in my eyes.
Butch, I am a strong supporter of workers rights. I have been to third world countries and seen the tourists living in the lap of luxury whilst the locals run around like ants in servitude. My short answer to your question on the hospitality industry is no. Butch the number of children working in both the retail and hospitality industries is a vexed question with me. Unfortunately the lure of the big bucks, 5 dollars an hour casual, is hard for many children to resist, and employers like Coles, Woolworths and McDonalds are quick to oblige. I would like to see children live like children more, which I think is very important in their development, and restore some balance in society on child labor.

Rechtub you use words carelessly.
And your thoughts seem to have rumbled around in a cement mixer before you use them.
Labor and Liberals have long supported car making in this country.
I doubt any brand was ever made without government help here.
Unions your child you love to kick , workers took a reduction in pay to help build cars here.
Strong Australian dollar is the worst thing facing Holden.
But are you aware America has called on its manufacturing industry's to return home?
To take on the massive maybe imposable task of rebuilding America?
Rechtub your fixation on a bad Union movement and Bad ALP isolates you from reality, this country has a leader who is lost and out of touch.
And while he continues to blame Labor that will not wash forever .

Belly,
To blame others for the situation you 'chose' to be in is the refuge of those with little talent, vision or ability.
Sadly that about sums up the LNP front bench.I am sure many of them think the GFC was Labors fault.Their vision goes no further than the walls of Parliament house.
It is a sad state of affairs.
SD

children working in both the retail and hospitality industries
Paul1405,
To have children working is not an ideal situation in any case. Small business would not resort using kids unless of course the kids wanted to earn some pocket money in their school holidays. The problem is that there simply are too many hangers-on & Governments have to impose more & more taxes, rules, regulations etc to collect more money to pay the hangers-on. Small business cops the brunt of this extortion. To protect our jobes Government needs to ease off & workers also need to ease off with their demands. Penalty rates are a killer of most industry, the hospitality industry in particular. Overtime is what you do if you want to earn more. Penalty rates are just bludging & costing everyone. Don't feel like working at night or on weekends ? Then don't. Let a someone with more integity do the job who is pleased to have time off during the week. Unions have played a great part in protecting workers' rights for many years but then they turned to extortion & started to undo all the good work. They still call themselves unions but they're not. They've become economic terrorists.

Belly,

What has been killing manufacturing is the high dollar, the carbon tax, militant unions, and new layers of red and green tape.

The number of cars made in Aus has dropped by about 75% during the Labor regime leading to the loss of more jobs and supporting jobs than would be lost if GMH and Toyota left today. Yet what do we see from the AWU? - When Toyota warns that it might also close if conditions don't improve, the AWU thugs accuse Toyota of making it up and insist on keeping all their rolls royce wages and conditions

The point has been passed years ago when the car industry became no longer viable, to the point where government subsidy has almost reached the point of paying the employee's wages in their entirety.

The government should follow Campbell Newman's example where he inherited a bloated bureaucracy and high unemployment, and in short order has trimmed the fat and achieved the lowest unemployment in Aus.

A GM spokesman just told on the news that even if the Aus Govt would have produced another bail-out package they still would have closed Holden.
I'd say this would be an ideal opprortunity for an australian company to produce no-frills cars designed for australian conditions instead of importing so much.

Shaggy Dog

'As have senior under performing management on obscene salaries. ' I agree although when it is done with tax payers money.

'We desperately need forward thinking people not the hacks currently occupying the seats in Canberra. '

and who do you suggest?

Runner,
That is a very good question. How many seats does the Govt hold. Ninety isn't it? There has got to be some talent amid that many members.
I like many LNP voters carried a lot of reservations into the last election as what was being touted as the front bench could not be described as inspiring and now in power the concerns are becoming fact.
TA and team are back in the Howard era, the country and global situation has changed a great deal since then, we badly need some forward thinkers.
There has got to be some talent lurking on the back benches, they couldn't all be duds making it up as they go along.
SD

Runner,

So the evil unions have made our wages too high but we should stop the 457 workers because their wages are too low and taking away our jobs?

Sounds like a bit of a conflicted argument to me.

Do you suggest getting rid of the unions so we can have our wages reduced to 457 worker levels?

Given the constantly increasing profits announced by many corporations, perhaps the real culprit is the corporate greed for even higher returns by reducing input costs.

Is the reason for the 457s a lack of skilled local workers or just greed?

wobbles

'So the evil unions have made our wages too high but we should stop the 457 workers because their wages are too low and taking away our jobs '

I don't know if I would call unions 'evil ' . In the past they have done much good. Those in bed with the ALP of recent times have allowed their politics to take over looking after workers. In many cases union thuggery has been a badge of honour when applying for ALP jobs. Look at the incompetent sisterhood most of whom were promoted through the union ranks. Even the current Government look like saints compared to their nasty incompetent reign.
I have no doubt many big companies have employed 457 workers deceitfully, largely due to unfordable demands by unions. In some places cleaners receive $200000 plus in remote locations. Anyone with a brain knows that this is not sustainable. On the other hand in Western Australia many teachers, nurses etc refuse to leave the city and then complain about not having a job. 457 teachers and nurses often bring down the standards but are willing to work in remote locations for less than what the unions demand for their members. Quite complex really.

Do you suggest getting rid of the unions so we can have our wages reduced to 457 worker levels?
wobbles,
there are many public servants who'd still be overpaid even at the 457 level. Unions are good & they are necessary but in Australia they're not independent. As long as they align with the ALP they'll never regain the the purpose for which they were formed.
People need to take responsibility too not just keep claiming higher & higher wages. Too many workers are in fact not worth what they get paid & my guess is we're actually not that far from a crack-down on pay vs productivity. It's well overdue. The unfairness has to stop. Many lives are suffering deprivation of one form or another because of it.
Just because the majority of minorities have no compassion for others does not make such a system morally acceptable. Ask anyone who has integrity.

I have taken my time to think before answering a Shadow Minister taunt/false claim to me above.
Yes I was a union official, and still love the movement.
I however never fitted in to any box, content to hold my own views and too not to turn my head to wrongs.
Maybe my clash, with an official of the Union that includes Car Makers was with one angry left wing nut.
But I never ever liked them.
BUT they did take a wage cut, in recent past, to keep car makeing in Australia.
And yes every government has spent our cash, keeping the car industry going!
It is just the tip of an iceberg, manufacturing is about to take its biggest ever hit.
IF Toyota leaves too
16%
That is the part of a cars cost wages takes up.
The heated blast of anti worker/union/Labor tripe from AM avoids at all costs a truth.
AUSTRALIA even without the cookie monster UNIONS and workers insisting on a living wage.
Can never beat the low wages these car makers pay in other country,s like south America.

Indi, business, both large and small, has in general done very well in Oz, large multinationals like GM were given generous incentives post WWII to set up and operate here. Australia has for a long time been seen as an attractive haven to foreign investors. These are undeniable facts.
I am a believer in "sustainability" which should be applied to all facets of human endeavor. I also believe in "social justice", giving a helping hand to all those that need and deserve it. I also believe where possible people should be "self reliant" as far as their ability allows. I support the rights of workers to organise for their collective good. I also believe all have a responsibility to act for the social good of society.
Government performs a most necessary function in society; in fact we could not do without it. The government’s regulatory function is vital, but in some circumstance it tends to over regulate and has become too invasive in our lives and stifling sustainability and self reliance. For my point of view big government is not a good thing, what is needed is balance between the need for government and the needs of the individual

Rechtub for sure SM maybe often tells us the answer is lower wages.
In this case rare but true some times they are right.
A coastal City sees tradesmen doing their own Laboring, because a ranting raving extremist union took action that priced members out of a job.
See? I still face the truth!
But are we aware of the impacts of low wages.
Do we understand a worker has only their time and skills to sell? to gain a living wage from.
Do we want a working poor an under class?
457 Visa, thrown around here like a rock, and in truth nothing more than uninformed.
We let 457 folk come in who have skills we do not have.
And who do work sometimes we do not want to do.
EG Pacific Islanders to pick the Northern Territory s fruit like Mango,s.
We live in confronting times Unions too need to be constantly looking for improvement, eg stop pricing membership out by large fees.
But if the Rechtubs ever get to see the anti average Australian worker wish imposed?
Hell on earth, truth has value.

Well, I have just read through the posts here and the message I get is
that you are all arguing on a "Business as Usual" basis.

Well, it won't be a business as usual environment.
We need to get rid of the 457 visas asap to force our people to do the
jobs and train up because as a matter of urgency it will take at least
five years to get the workforce we will need for the localised industry.
The problem is we may not have five years. I am afraid that it will
take that long to get our politician's brains reorientated to the new zero growth world.
I think that may have been what Peter Costello was on about.
If that is right we may well have to just cancel that debt.

It now looks like we will never have enough GDP surplus to pay off
our government debt and the public's debt will hang over us all.
Like you I have been seeing the hints handed out from different
sources about how tough it is going to be in coming times.
It is the lack of growth and if we do not act responsibly we will go
one worse and have contraction.

Don't worry about car factories, many more people are not going to be able to afford one.
Fuel costs are going to reach levels where your car will last a lifetime.

We will need to divert large funds to rebuild TAFE as we try to
overcome the lack of grass roots technical trades people.

Way back in the early 70s I had a mate with the perfect life.

He was a sparky, [radio operator] on Oz coastal shipping. He worked 3 months on 3 months off, on the ships, & spent the other half sailing around on his yacht, with his wife.

He would leave her & the yacht in a port near her family, or in a port his ship would visit regularly, & off to work he'd go.

It was in the old Mooloolaba yacht club one night they were crying into their beers. He reckoned he had lost his job. On queering him we found it was not immediate, but in the next few years.

You see the seaman's union had just got another ridiculously high extra in their award. He reckoned it was the last straw, & coastal shipping would be unviable, & disappear. We've done ourselves out of our jobs he reckoned. He was right, it was the last straw for Oz shipping.

He was a smart bloke, I wonder what he is doing now.

Can't you see that we are supposed to become the mean of other Asian nations and the rich get richer to employ and manage the poorer middle class; and we as others work for a bowl of rice each day and $14 a week. Then we will be able to manufacture as China, India and Asia our own clothes, cars and hardware products, and we will again have our service industry returned from those countries.

Bazz Have now and long before we met here had a great deal of respect for you and your actions in our hobby.
Hasbeen too we clash like young bulls but are not as far apart as you may think.
But let me say this wages and the 20% of workers who are in unions are not this country,s problem.
The high dollar has more impact than anything.
Bazz you find a coming holocaust that does not exist.

More work has been done on covering up new power and fuels, than finding answers.
If over night [and it will never happen] we ran out of petrol products new fuels would arrive the next day.
This country is not in trouble not in debt enough to drown us and if our life was to begin today we would not see bankruptcy or even bad times for this country bought about by workers wages
Reducing workers to under paid under privileged is not an answer.
Consumers must consume and to do so they must have the capital to do that.
Are we so sad a bunch we want to introduce suffering on those who work for a living?

Belly said;
If over night [and it will never happen] we ran out of petrol products new fuels would arrive the next day.

No Belly you misunderstand the problem.
We will NEVER run out of oil.
It is just that it will become too expensive.
Its expense will suck down our GDP and that will result in zero growth
as Europe is now very close to.

Actually there is no alternative to oil coming over the horizon as
nothing has the energy density of oil and its products.
1 Litre of petrol will drive your car for 12kms, try pushing your car
for 12kms and that will give you an idea of the energy density.

I have said many times and will continue to say that if a worker can hold a full time job (38hrs), as a floor sweeper and earn a decent wage, we have a major problem, because those without skills, or choosing not to use them need to work more hours, or a second job if they want a decent wage.

After all, if we pay our cleaners $40K per year, how much should we pay our police?

We are simply going to be the best paid, least worked people in the civilized world, simply because wages will be unaffordable.

As for anyone thinking we can retain our manufacturing industries, keep dreaming I say.

But the least we can do is stop the 457's and retain what jons we do have for our people.

If the likes of the mines can't find skilled staff, either train them, or dont mine, it really is that simple.

Typical small minded small business;
"full time job (38hrs), as a floor sweeper and earn a decent wage, we have a major problem, because those without skills, or choosing not to use them need to work more hours, or a second job if they want a decent wage."
Yep, how much should we pay a bloke to chop up dead animal carcasses? Not much skill in that. If these people had their way they would reduce society to a mass of menial minions, who's only function would be to serve their butchering masters. Naturally menial servitude doesn't include themselves as they "deserve" to be the elite, after all they perform the vital function of chopping up dead animals.
Will these people's thinking ever leave the 19th century?

I see Butch is still at it. If you pay floor sweepers on butches terms there would be no floor sweeping going on. He lives in a world of two centuries ago. How much wage reduction would you like. 50% or more.
Nationalise all mining in AU. That would give Gina a pay cut.

Paul1405,
I do concede that skil plays a major part in the rate of pay but it should not be the one & all. Value for work performed must be the bench mark. Let the bloke who chops up animal carcasses have a week off & don't have a stand-in. You'll only be too happy to pay him a little more when the carcasses pile up & start to smell. Many so-called menial tasks are extremely important yet the pay is not reflecting this. just watch some highly skilled & highly paid surgeon do his thing if the lowly cleaner didn't do his job. Or the prestigious professor get to his Uni if the service station mechanic doesn't fix his flat tyre etc. It's all a matter of value. Too many people do not offer anything of value in return for their pay, especially many public servants.

Paul I will not need to tell you, but will be branded lefty fool by others for a truth.
A worker is no less a product for sale than the fruit in a green grocers shop.
And if the price is wrong no sale takes place.
A boss buys workers to advance his out put/profit if the worker he wants has skills he needs but is paid more by his present boss?
He not a Union not the worker, often offers more pay.
IF he for any reason including poor price quoting finds he needs to cut costs he may or may not cut workers.
The next boss may head hunt his workers it takes place.
We are served by far more poor performing middle managers than workers in this country.
HIGH WAGES? heads of our biggest firms, board members earn up to millions not hundreds why not focus on them?

Indi, by paying the sweeper a liveable wage for himself and his dependents it actually help oil the wheels of business. The sweeper is part of the consumer mass which the elite, like the animal chopper, need to exist. Its all part of the sustainability of our society. In the average "butcher shop" the majority of customers are the "sweepers" they are the very people the elite rely upon to make their business function. Without these consumers the animal chopper would end up cutting his own throat.
"Too many people do not offer anything of value in return for their pay"
Would the professional golfer fit into that category? Some peoples productivity is obvious, but others is a little less obvious. the person who's job is fortune telling, is that productive, a singer, can't be as productive as a brick layer? But all form an integral part of society. Medicine, very important, but how much do you pay the nurse compared to the doctor? Can't simply rely on market forces to come up with the answer, then those in a powerful position would make disproportionate claims on the economy.

"A worker is no less a product for sale than the fruit in a green grocers shop.
And if the price is wrong no sale takes place."
Belly, in a totally free market that would be the case. You would find the small elite would be extremely well off in comparison to the vast majority. Does that sound familiar, just like 19th century England. No need for industrial laws at all, for example a thing like safety would simply be determined by what the worker is prepared to do. Does that sound familiar, just like India today.
Even the Conservatives relise the need for intervention to facilitate a degree of fairness. Intervention makes for a better society, and actually help the elite as well as the majority.

People have been arguing this one forever.
The way things go in real life is that when the economy is booming and
jobs are easy to get then the sweeper can get more money for the job.
When things turn down, like now, there are more people prepared to do
the job and because things have turned down the boss of a parts manufacturer
might have less money available.

To give it a current feel, an ex Holden process worker being pressed
by the bank over his mortgage, might well be happy to take the sweeping
job, if the sweeper refused to accept a lower wage.

One way or another the sweeping has to be done.
It times gone by, in most workshops the apprentices got the job of
sweeping up and did not feel put upon, it just had to be done.

This is what is meant by flexibility in the workplace and it is a survival technique.
The sooner that lesson is learnt the better off we will all be.

Yes well, the alternative is we can continue to pay the highest minimum wage in the world and go down the gurgler, it's our choice.

BTW, a cow cutter earns less per hour than a stop go attendant. Work that one out.

Most butchers work at least 60 hours per week to make a good wage.

In years gone by 70+ hours were common.

Paul we are fishing in a very dry creek here.
Even the father of the current Liberal party Menzies supported a living wage and a workers right to be in a Union.
He too supported Arbitration, the workers right to have his/her claim Arbitrated.
Minimum wage is now set by a board not much different than the one Howard used,but less likely to devalue that wage.Very few if any who earn that wage are union members.
But the ACTU runs its annual case in the name of fair go mate.
Those opposed to the current level will scream blue murder if I point out the truth.
By wanting us to follow other country,s we introduce a working poor who have little chance of buying the things we all want.
Most Australians remain convinced we are better than that.

An extraordinary amount of union bashing going on when the man of the moment is actually our newly elected PM and his bad of mornons.

Put aside the union bashing, the 457 is being abused and it because the rules are to broad and open to being twisted to suit the particular employer/ employee.

One section of the community will do what is becoming rather tedious and blame the previous Govt. IF that's your beef then your party had the option to change the 457 Regs as they stood, instead of saying No to anything and everything.

So instead of beating off here write to your local Fed MHR or senator and express disappointment at the loss of local talent to overseas and overseas workers coning over here.

Try lads really try to forget the anti union bias. Its a broken record and frankly immature. This is effectively Australia's next big things and can actually be fixed......IF YOU WANT IT TO BE FIXED, or continue whinging and blaming everyone except the current Federal Government who are from todays little media fling quite happy to sling off and do NOTHING about 457's...your choice gents fight or flee!

Belly, a good post. You, I and John Howard knew the reality of Work Choices and individual contracts. For the vast majority of workers, the unskilled, the semi-skilled, the young, the migrant, women the non unionised, those working for many small businesses, instead of being a level playing field the reality was it was geared to breaking down wages and conditions. instead of negotiation it would be a case of take it or leave. The cynical conservatives made out it was bring equality and fairness to the workplace, nothing could be further from the truth as Howard set out to destroy unionism and the rights of workers.
Abbott is philosophically opposed to unionism and worker rights and at the first opportunity will try and introduce another Howard style attack on the rights of Australian workers.

I am a believer in "sustainability"
Paul1405,
So, do you believe the ALP was sustainable as a Government ? Do you believe the public service is sustainable as it is presently ? Do you believe the ever increasing wages & prices can be sustainable ?
I don't think our society is sustainable without the re- introduction of some discipline & common sense. Our education system is unsustainable in its present form because we need smarter people who can think instead of brainwashed mutts who have no concept of anything & just keep asking for more.

Indi, you hold a certain philosophical view, as do I. Our society is far from perfect and there are many things that should change for the better. A balanced view of those things you mentioned would say improvements can always be made, and we should work towards a goal of complete sustainability in every area of human society. Those things worth achieving are never easy, and often are not as black and white as they may seem. Debate and argument over those things that matter is important to the final outcome, hopefully for the betterment of society.
The public service is something you have a strong view on, it is unreasonable to paint all as useless, and call for its total sacking, just as it is unreasonable to claim all are working to peak efficiency and vital for the good of society, the truth lies somewhere in between. I prefer to take a positive view that through effort things like education can improve and continue to improve. A cynical negative view achieves little for the common good. Society is, and should be forever changing, we live in a different world to our parents and our children will occupy a different place to use. We collectively have a responsibility to hand on to our kids a better world than the one our parents gave to us.

Paul1405,
Very good view & post.
Re the public service, of course it's not the whole of the organisation which is a costly burden on the rest of us. I just happen to be exposed to public servants 24/7 for the past 35 years who literally are not pulling their weight especially the upper echelon.
I am always on about a national service & it is my firm belief that we desperately need some institution to shape discipline & responsibility in adolescents & young adults. The present system is not only failing the young it's failing all of us. The notion of getting the top job or top pay after a year's induction is something we need to sort out asap because no young people are willing to do manual work anymore. Everyone's chasing work in front of a computer screen. We can't do that it's unsustainable, we need to make them understand that there's more to work than just showing up for 8 hours a day. We also need to make them aware that many people are simply getting paid too much. Many believe the high salaries in the public service are sustainable, they're not. The evidence is screaming out loud. Our society needs an overhaul & it needs it soon.

Here here Individual;
There is a time coming covered by the term "Transition" and the young
people will very quickly understand that if they do not pull their
weight they will probably go hungry.

Everything will be local, if you want a new kitchen table you won't go
to Harvey Normans you will go to the furniture maker in the local town.
The "Chuck it and Buy a New One" idea will be so last century.
You will take "it" to the local electrical fix it man, just like our
parents did.
The farmers' markets, of which you now see the beginning, will be where
you do your weekly shopping.
That clever youth you speak of will not be after a computer cell job,
but might be talking with his mates of setting up to do odd jobs until
they get enough money so they can buy some land and start a vegetable farm.

Does this seem way out ?
Well you need to do some reading as this has already started and there
is now time for younger people to get ahead of the curve.

The Abbott governments cuts to the Schools Trade Training Program has to be one of the most short sighted decisions on education ever. The program of providing Trade Training Centers so kids can start to learn a trade whilst still at school has been one of the most practical forms of education imaginable. The program is aimed at the kids who are generally academically not suited to university for future training. The program is of value to both employers, giving them someone with a head start, and of value to the student in teaching skills they otherwise would not have, not to mention the self esteem it gives a young person knowing they are being valued by society. too often we throw kids on the scrap heap before they have even had a chance to "make a go of it" then we want to know why they are turning out to be social misfits. The kids who succeed with this type of program are not your drug takers and those into a lazy life of crime and dependency on others, but the ones who become responsible adults and self reliant. No matter what, the government should be spending more, not less on trade training programs, it will always be money well spent, and the bottom line is we need our "Tradies" if we are going to get ahead.

http://www.themorningbulletin.com.au/news/trade-training-funding-cuts-anger-union-and-opposi/2117852/

The thread has if we wish to look a message.
Its Author is far from alone in holding views that, lets face it, are extreme.
Such folk hid in the overall team that is the current two party government.
Labor too has in its big tent opinions that are far from mainstream.
Read, consume, the quite silly idea that we are doomed!
Yes cuts are coming and yes China hence us is likely to slow right down.
But ignore at your peril Howard success was based on China's peak times, and he wasted it.
If They thought all right or wrong is on one side *gives clear evidence the poster is not equipped to comment on the matter*
Rechtub reminds me of a road workers joke.
A car is being driven on the north bound lanes in a southerly direction.
CB Radio has a warning put out.
Warning a car is being driven in the wrong direction on the freeway.
Out Butcher reply's *there is not just one of them hundreds have past me!

cuts to the Schools Trade Training Program has to be one of the most short sighted decisions on education ever.
Paul1405,
If that's the case then yes, I have to agree with your assertion. However, if there's sufficient proof and, in my area we have that proof in the bag, that students did not learn anything from it & no apprentices evolved from it then it is a wise decision by the Government to prevent further wastage & it is in fact a far sighted one.
I maintain that discipline & responsibility go hand in hand & only a national service system can effectively address that. Educators themselves are lacking these qualities so don't expect the pupils to get any better.

Now I am not kidding.
Many years ago during the Witlam government,an anti workers letter writer took to me in the letters to the editor pages.
Intent on telling me wage rises meant the money was in the wrong hands.
In reference to me buying in a depressed market cows and calves for less than others paid for a bantam hen and chicks.
Again quite true the then elderly gent said in those letters we needed a system such as the one his Grand Father had.
In India! as head of rail maintenance.
He his grand son said put a beer bottle upside down on a flat bed truck and had it towed the length of his track.
If it fell over he flogged the Indian boss of Navy's!
Maybe Rechtub and at least one other would like that.
Any relation blokes?

Paul, I was in favor of school based apprenticeships, but I now consider the majority a dismal failure.

One point is the one day a week at work, as they simply can't learn enough with a full weeks break and, chances are the boss doesn't have enough free time to teach them.

Another problem is that the kids Finnish school and are considered a second year, but in reality (speak to any employer) they are barely a first year.

A better option in my view would be to do term about, school/work, or perhaps two weeks on, two off school, with alternate periods at work.

The other problem is that the instructors at tafe ore usually so out of touch with the industries that their teachings are pretty much worthless.

It's one of those cases of, 'sounded like a good idea at the time.'

Indi and rehctub, I do know 4 young boys, 2 sets of brothers, who took on the trade training at high school and all 4 have done well. All 4 got apprenticeships from school, the 2 oldest have completed there's and their younger brothers are well on the way. I don't know what part it played but all of them today are well spoken sensible young fellas. I see them now and then. Trade training should be seen as a start not an end, the key is "someone" has to take the kid on, that's all important. It's not new, my father the best tradesmen I ever knew, back in the 1920's as a young bloke went from normal high school to Technical HS, and then landed an apprenticeship with a large company where he worked, for the next 48 years. At one time it was relatively easy to get an apprenticeship, unfortunately that's no longer the case, they are hard to find these days.
Australia badly needs practical trained people, one tradesman is 10 times more productive than an unskilled person. Its "good" to have people working in insurance and banking etc but literally they wont put a roof over your head or a loaf of bread on your table.
They talk about the car industry for example, you can't have any kind of car industry etc, if all you have to work in them are "monkeys", people who don't have a clue how to build a decent car, or anything else for that matter, for-get-it. Just think for a moment what it would be like if every Australian worker was employed in only service industries that's, 4 million, bankers, 4 million insurance agents, need I go on. I would have to neck myself.
con't

con't
I work a lot with people, only part time these days, here is an example of dumbness. I was interviewing a young girl in her 20's and something about the city of Auckland came up. I said "You'll need a passport to go to Auckland." She reply's "Why? do you need a passport to go to Queensland." I said "where do you think Auckland is?" She said "Queensland". When I asked about her job, she has a top office job paying over $50k a year. I don't expect a person to have a masters degree in geography to know where Auckland is, surly its just common knowledge for a well educated 23 year old, or is it.

Just got in from 14 days of Ice Climbing in Antarctica, a warm up for the winter season. That followed my winning of the Tour De France on a unicycle, yellow jersey all the way, bicycles are for wozzies. I think I'll just pop out to the tool shed and knock meself up a new Nazcar, only fitting I should defend the title, don't you think? Can't get Usain off the phone, wants a rerun, I said "Bolty take defeat like a man, get over it, you had to meet someone one day who runs a 100 in under 8 seconds, backwards, sorry I can't go any slower."
Please, someone pass me the remote I want to change the channel.

Sorry, put that one in the wrong place. too much sport.

Paul! I did not notice any difference.
A by product of sport mate is stirring in a friendly way your mates.
Just a thought this thread may be of help to Tony Abbott for sure by this time next year asking him to watch his back/save his job will look to be good advice.

belly..i.saw..tony..the other day..and he is getting better
he at least..,mentioned workers..and is aware of corperate welfare

others report its a nice lump of money..for ONLY under 2000 workers
but alex explains..how..its about govt giving its mates cash flow for 'retraining'[much like when ruddies mrs..got here rich from HOWARDS privatization.,..of the ces

reminding..us their ALL..scum

that what..tony..he said about not buying jobs was spot on
apparently..the numbers are interesting too
in usa..they are..BUILDING BRAND*new plants[for 600MILLION..each]
so if you manage to get a billion..we could offer FAIR value..for the used ones we got down under..8but they likely would take..the millions on offer and give the plants..to/the workers..[REDEVELOPMENT..OF THESE WOULD PAY..FOR THE NEXT STAGE

decentralization*

i..recall..that japan..after ww2..did build cars/bikes anything
by job lots[they SIMPLY moved the machines into..your garage]
deliverd your raw material..and picked up..your product

much..is happening..by..sign..that gives us hope the good guys are on it..media seems to have found its spine..[media is key here]

by subverting spin..inlue of INFO..is how we got here
sothe media must be awoken[?]

media here is key
but too is ARIEL*SHARRON..who has been on..'life support'
read limbo..for near nine years..NINE YEARS..enough his enough..this is how we punish PEACEMAKERS?

why media is key*..is media MAKES US ANGRY*
but also..ENSURES we feel..small.
we cant change.nuthin

WHAT..they are trying to..get us angry
its called divide and con*queer

http://rss.infowars.com/20131124_Sun_Alex.mp3

the beginning..explains the war..between the baddies/the baddies
the middle explains how federal..police are corrupting local police...and how they..assaulted alex..by hurting a child

[they will do much the same..to govt
[recall..goerge/blair/john..REALLY believed satans spin

and note..please..the big ending..is important too
perhaps more..try to focus..on what is said..is federal..is hijacking the other[under thee globalist..agenda..RUNNING EVERYTHING

i/have seen protest visions of the future
where we broadcast..pictures [images]..on..buildings
because we ARE there only for colour*

thats what i like about files..you can rewind..to make sure
thats all any needs do..check/confirm..dont act fast..not furious

anyhow the lions lay..with the sheep?
[THE WATCHMEN..ARE ASLEEP]
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=15820&page=0

alexjones info-wars..
http://rss.infowars.com/20131217_Tue_Alex.mp3

talking about,,the globalization
15,000robots..are going to do..and how
our machines are getting..re used..in china

dont..they know..once we are at war with china
that will..[with hindsight]..be seen as treason
but thats the plan..[ignorance=no excuse]..IM..WAITING to hear bill [but preferably fed-jocky/hocky or even marnicled/barnaby..or the abbots/tony..**say the worker[servant],,..OWNS HIS TOOLS*

we fought..for that CENTURIES AGO*
'thats where we got..the saying..from..of..i [got the sack*]

UGO, that's good, I had a bloke, Fred Corporate was his name, in the office the other day. Fred said his dole payments have left him a bit short over the Festive Season, Fred wanted to know if I could see my way clear to advance him 50 bucks till the next fortnights dole came through. Naturally I said "No way grub."
The next bloke in was, I think ex army, a General Motors was his name, wanted the same thing as Fred, except not 50 bucks but 2 billion, naturally like Tony I said "no probs mate, pick it up on your way out."

Leave poor Tony alone bloke he said no you have to go.
He needs the cash to pay mothers earning $150.000 a year 6 months leave.
And to work out ways to further cut welfare education and jobs.
He is cutting cash to the poor to fund his high income gifts to the rich, and cutting grants to Australian Aboriginals to pay for Turn coat Mundene who follows him around keeping the fly,s out of his mates torn trouser seat.

Federal Reserve 100 Years of Failure
http://www.veteransnewsnow.com/2013/12/22/federal-reserve-100-years-of-failure/

We all know or should all know that the Federal Reserve conspiracy is an ongoing theft syndicate.

The Fed is privately owned, and its shareholders are private banks. In fact, 100% of its shareholders are private banks. None of its stock is owned by the government.

The actual purpose of the architects of the Federal Reserve System has never changed. Consolidate the control of money into a concealed cartel of banking houses that ultimately decide economic and political policy.

Dispensing of credit to corporatist projects, owned or run by reliable operatives of the cabal is the objective. The only beneficiaries are the original stockholders.

Please Watch these Videos and read this excellent article with many links to further information:

listen to alex jones
infowar./.edward griffiths..[creature of jeckle island]

[they have asked my demands..and i have only need for healthy food]
this post WAS*..blanked off by a microSOFT..fact check..but has now been restored..

peace..should be declared[decreed]..shortly
now is the time..to talk..revealyouir grievences
hrh..is listening

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6152#178808

are you..men enough for peace?
are you woman..enough..to forbid..thy children..to/die in ANY war?

are you/humane enough..to see without fear?

all we are saying..is give peace a chance
noe make peace go..virel

[your life /your very living..depends onthis final..skirmish]