Sorry for the delayed response. I had to produce some stuff to pay some parasites.

Loudmouth – Appreciate the response.

You’re never going to get rid of the show ponies in politics. However I was meaning the parliament would be much healthier with a lot more smaller players none of which could have control rather than the current two large non representative dead horses that are currently being propped up.

Productivity is key to my life philosophy. Money only has value as a result of productivity and the wealth and income of our nation fluctuates with that productivity. For example if the country was full of Lawyers, politicians and accountants the country would be broke. They produce nothing, they are parasites but are still entitled to a share (although not as much as they take now) of the nation’s productivity.

The issue I have with most suggestion made most contributors is they are too specific and generally reflects the writers life experience. I include myself in this comment. Some ideas I agree with and other I don’t but they tend to get bogged in detail.

My suggestions are simplistic:

• There should be “no sit down” money (the dole), should be replaced by a minimum wage that is higher than the dole that fluctuates with national productivity.

• To qualify for the minimum wage an individual would have to do something meaningful, within their community for a specific amount of time.

• Most importantly these activities should be controlled and tailored at local level, not centralised government.

Linking the wage to productivity avoids cost blowouts. Individuals are required to interact with their community reducing isolation and marginalisation. A significant amount of their time is used in a meaningful way. Because control is local, what they individuals do ultimately benefits themselves and their wider community. It will tailor itself to any location, any culture and compliment local conditions. It has the ability to evolve and change.

Thankyou – The End

Hi Producer,

That was supposed to be the purpose of the Community Development Employment Program, CDEP, which Fraser brought in in the late seventies - in that Coombsian/Utopian framework, that communities would identify what work was needed and the people there would do it. Everybody would skip merrily to work, for two days a week, and all would be rosy.

Fat chance.

CDEP programs became glorified sit-down money - in the 'communities' I am aware of in SA, people were hardly ever trained if they didn't want to be, or apprenticed, or prepared for any sort of genuine work - so many people spent twenty or more years doing two days a week of 'home duties', mowing their own lawn, etc.

You would surely agree that that is not productive.

And the bottom line of it all was that absolutely nothing had to be generated within the community - it was all funded from outside. Now, that is NOT productive.

But it can go on forever as long as governments are prepared to pay for it. Thankfully, the Howard government had had gutful by 2006 and started to wind some of the programs down. In response, communities bankrupted their economic potential by paying out their CDEP participants, i.e. themselves, all their back-pay, long-service leave, sick leave, holiday pay, etc., etc., and setting the debt against whatever 'productive' capacity they had, equipment, plant, etc.

So that opportunity has been lost, and forever. What dumb-@rse government is going to do that twice ? CDEP cost billions every year and for what ? For a pack of drunks and child-abusers, some may say (I couldn't possibly comment) ?

People abused a historic opportunity. It won't happen again. So now they will have to look for work or wallow in their squalor in remote sink-holes. They did it. Not colonialism. Not some nasty government: the people - with eyes wide open - buggered up their own opportunities and may have to take the consequences.

Meanwhile, in the cities, the Indigenous people who have lost all their land forever ........

Loudmouth

Where In my previous post did I say these activities although desirable should be productive?

Was there any reference that my suggestions were exclusive to remote communities, on the contrary?

I am aware of CEDP and what I suggest is not. You seem however to say CEDP was better than the current situation. If so Howard was wrong and perhaps was just unable to manage it!

Government (we) spend a lot of money on the Catholic Church and they harbour child abusers and paedophiles and no doubt some drunks as well.

I think your last post illustrates my comment:

“The issue I have with most suggestion made most contributors is they are too specific and generally reflects the writers life experience. I include myself in this comment. Some ideas I agree with and other I don’t but they tend to get bogged in detail.”

Your comments lead me to imagine you have a permanent rash in your neck area

Hi producer,

I'm certainly not saying that CDEP was better than anything around now - CDEP was a disaster, a betrayal of self-determination by the people themselves. CDEP shut the door on self-determination, and it won't come again, I certainly hope, unless in a radically different form, and tightly monitored.

So what, then ? What can governments do ? Let's finish that question: 'What can governments do if the people don't want to do anything much for themselves?' i.e. if the people don't want self-determination, but they DO want to be looked after ? i.e. if they DO want to be dependent on outsiders ? Forever ?

No. It shouldn't happen.

Perhaps the answer from any producers, workers, whoever produces the goods - is to gradually withdraw their services, to gradually expect people to either make do for themselves, like so many other people in the rest of the world, OR to move out and find work in towns, productive work, honest work

Producer Loudmouth, Joe, while sometimes prickly is no red neck, in fact he tells us he is Socialist.
Not at risk of a verbal bashing, in this area this country is Socialist.
With all the problems, mixed with the good, of such built in failure that socialist system always brings.
If we look back we get proof we have changed things.
No more stolen generations, we just call it, and it is needed, taking to children in to care.
If we this generation, wanted to, as badly as we three here seem to, change the whole thing, we could.
*If any*Socialism within our Capitalist system is to be retained, remember Labor will not be in government soon, we should re-craft it for the 21st century.
So make work, true jobs, no sit down jobs, true honest work, I remain unionist , not put down jobs.
No treatment like second class people but agreed work or no benefits.
First task?
Make sure the kids go to school and learn.
I am convinced this country can get benefits from helping any unemployed person.
A national back packers trail including camp sites could be built, and we all could use it.
Many such nation building , job creating things can be done.
New Labor should look deeply at New Socialism within our current system, in say 2021 when we win federal government next.

Hi Belly,

I guess I'm pissed off at the misuse of CDEP, of what could have been a fantastic program in communities - from the point of view of enterprises,two days free labour from each of the able-bodied people in the community for enterprises, all paid for by the taxpayer - that would have taken care of a major expense for any community.

Let's not forget that Aboriginal communities do not have to pay off the land, like most farmers are doing all their working lives.

Sine Aboriginal land usually cannot be sold, and therefore does not have a rateable value (assuming that rates are calculated on land value, as they tend to be in rural areas), Aboriginal communities are not saddled with the costs of rates.

so let's see - free labor, no repayments, no rates. If a farmer had that sort of cost structure, you couldn't keep the grin off his/her face. It's a licence to make money, to provide a constantly=growing bucket of seed-money for new enterprises.

For example, a dairy in an Aboriginal community would have had free labor, free land, no rates, and - at least in the community I was familiar with most - free water. So what costs ? Electricity, chemicals, feed (lupins, triticale, wheat, hay, etc.) insemination costs, vet costs, fencing, etc.

CDEP could have shielded such Aboriginal enterprises against the vagaries of the market, the price of milk, etc.

But Aboriginal communities ? No, they have to piss it all down the drain, betraying all of their supporters who actually believed once in self-determination.

Once bitten, twice shy, Belly :)

Community, nil. Self-determination, nil. And the only goals have all been own goals.

Joe