http://www.news.com.au/national-news/welfare-tragic-for-indigenous-australians-says-aboriginal-leader-noel-pearson/story-fncynjr2-1226621171716
We often touch on this problem, the future of Australia,s Aboriginals,our first people.
I hope the link,the thoughts of Noel Pearson, does not get taken down too soon.
It is always refreshing to see him talk his words straight to the Heart of the issue.
We see, every time, the interference and damaging failure to understand, of do gooders who in fact do great harm in this area.
That sense, that an entitlement exists, is the wall keeping these people in shanty towns around this country.

I'm still waiting for John Howard to say he's sorry.

PS Did you know that John Howard is a climate change skeptic?

Getting a bit boring opinion!
We have spoken about this before, and not gained ground.
If the link is still active, and if we can leave our personal biases behind, it looks to be away forward.
Because, without fail, ANY attempt to change any aspect of social security is slammed by some, on both sides,this man is worth looking at.
His words could be the way out of poverty for our first people.
As a example of something we all, including the next generation of the ALP, post landslide, could use in a future new way for all welfare, for every one.
I see increasing not decreasing poverty, lack of education, and indeed the sense Aboriginals have the right to welfare , there! said it watch the do gooder,s strike at me.
But see too the damage such people do to the very folk they say they care for.

I have always thought that Noel Pearson spoke common sense and am saddened to learn of his ill health, he has my best wishes in recovering.

Education and home ownership to my mind is critical for the advancement of aboriginal communities.

I went to an AGM of the Council and CDEP program of an Aboriginal 'community', back in 2006, where the Chairpeson was congratulating the CDEP program, which had started the year before with 52 participants, (at a community with 12,000 acres of good land, almost drought-free), and had managed to retain all of those 52 on CDEP for another year. Not one person had been placed in employment - what an achievement ! A few months later, the Council successfully closed its brand-new dairy.

Over the next year, as the Howard Government scaled down CDEP programs, I suspect that all participants at this 'community' were paid out their LSL, back-pay, etc., etc., with a million-dollar bill set against the farm. Yes, LSL - long-service leave. After all, some had been on CDEP, sit-down money, for 'home duties', for twenty years.

In response, DEEWR, the underwriter of such debts, came in and took their million-dollars' worth of plant and equipment, including the new dairy. All gone. Utter dumb-@rse 'community'.

Meanwhile, in the cities, Indigenous people are seizing higher education opportunities as never before: there are now 60 % more degree-level students at uni than there were in 2005-2006. There are now around 33,000 (thirty three thousand) Indigenous tertiary graduates - overwhelmingly in the cities. If anybody is ingterested, I can send them a comprehensive database (joelane94@hotmail.com).

The 'Gap' is growing - i.e. the Gap between urban, work-oriented Indigenous people, and remote and rural, welfare-oriented Indigenous people. Lumping the entire Indigenous population together blurs these realities, and inevitably confounds solutions - not to mention, that by labelling the 'problems' as 'Indigenous' problems, rather than problems of remoteness, alienation, and lifestyle, may well be quite racist.

Christ, I wish there were a thousand Noel Pearsons and I too certainly wish him well. People like Noel give me hope for a genuine future for all Indigenous people, not just for the Harvard-bound elites.

Joe

Mr Opinion says, "I'm still waiting for John Howard to say he's sorry.

PS Did you know that John Howard is a climate change skeptic?"

That says it all doesn't it? Howard is smart, you & Rudd are are a long way from smart.

Loudmouth I am pleased you came to contribute here.
You have spoken of the success of some and a much higher education than my targeted group.
Rather more Noels why did Labor not find a way to make him Minister for Aboriginal affairs and give him power?
It is a fact, cedp was both great and awful!
Sad that it was bleed to death by the few, but gave real hope to many.
I am fighting for a mate, runs a very small business employing ONLY his folk, Aboriginals, for no other reason but to lift both him, and them out of the welfare trap.
White folk, who give out the contract, about half a million each time, refuse to give him a go in this area, because he is not from country!
His workers are,and have a great work record in this game,re vegetating new roads.
I hurt to see we have failed for 200 years yet can not stop doing the same failed things time and again.
At sometime in the future this country, maybe the whole western world, will find a job for every one who needs one.
Maybe too we will get to select folk from outside the party,s to fill ministerial jobs

Belly,
Let me get this straight, your mate's business is being discriminated against on the basis that he's not from a particular Indigenous nation?
That's outrageous,have you made a complaint to HREOC or whatever body hears these cases in your state?

Why not give them their land back! After all it was you guys who stole it from them, not me.

Hasbeen, you and John Howard have two things in common: you both only have one degree and you are both losers.

Part of a comment I made in relation to “Do Labor deliver value for money” was:

“The concept of welfare is flawed. There should be “no sit down” money (the dole) but should be replaced by a minimum wage that is higher than the dole. It is “sit down” money and only this that causes welfare dependency whether it is on a remote aboriginal settlement or the suburbs of Sydney. I believe every person of working age in this country is entitled to a fair share of this countries productivity however should be required to do something meaningful for it, for a prescribed amount of time. Most importantly these activities should be controlled and tailored at local level, not centralised government. Some activities that come to mind are SES, volunteer fire brigade, public housing, child care and elder care. Everybody has the ability to do something meaningful, whereas work for the dole is seen and is demeaning. The minimum wage should rise and fall with our nation’s productivity.”

Most of the comments would suggest it’s a Black Fella problem. This in reality is not the case and some off the comments could be considered racist as they ignore the less concentrated but larger White Fella problem. Noel isn’t going to solve it, nor Julia or Tony.

I believe it was the mayor of North Sydney that solved its rubbish problem by removing the bins on the street, forcing people to take their rubbish with them. Perhaps by removing welfare as suggested above will require people to solve their own issues.

Mr Opinion,
Our ancestors didn't "steal" from anyone, they were legally entitled to purchase property here or were granted land by the crown, if you've got a problem with that take it up with Her Majesty because it was her ancestors who claimed this continent as their own.
I'll tell you what, show me the scientific proof that Aboriginal life was better before colonisation, that their life expectancy and living conditions before encountering Whites were superior to those of their their relatives in 2013 and I'll take you seriously.
See the average life expectancy of an indigenous person today is about sixty, we don't know what it was pre 1788 but studies of living Amazonian tribal people suggest that it might have been 35-40 years.

To Jay Of Melbourne

What a load of crap! Of course it was stolen from the aboriginal peoples.

You have just demonstrated your total ignorance to the world.

Your ancestors (like mine) were obviously British: the nastiest race of people the world has ever known. And their blood obviously flows in your veins.

But we shouldn't blame you just because you have no understanding of history, sociology and anthropology. I suppose there are reasons as to why you are so ignorant.

no understanding of history, sociology and anthropology.
Mr Opinion,
You don't either so I suppose you speak with authority.

Mr Opinion,

You may wish to check out this article by Henry Reynolds and Jamie Dalziel, on Aboriginal use-rights on all Crown land and pastoral leases:

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/journals/UNSWLawJl/1996/17.pdf

Recognition of use-rights is not recognition of land ownership or proprietorship. That's another story.

Joe

Oh that's great Loudmouth, an article by a couple of dingbat lawyers. But I don't really care reading anything produced by people with trade degrees like law, etc. One on my favourite oxymorons is "an honest lawyer."

MO,

Henry Reynolds is a historian, not a lawyer. And if you read the article, you most certainly wouldn't use ad hominems like 'dingbat'.

The article describes the eveolution of a legal position, how it was and how it became, not how you or any other dingbat might have preferred it to be., just for your petty paradigm.

Joe

In the link Noel Pearson supports the opinion of Marcia Langton that a sense of entitlement had poisoned Aboriginal society. I could not agree more, the white man sometimes with the best of intentions created the hand out mentality as a fix to the "problem" of indigenous people. This is not unique in Australia, wherever Europeans colonised few could see little of value in indigenous culture. Often colonisers tried to Europeanise native people, sometimes believing it was for their own good, or simple to exploit and profit from it. Indigenous people have been marginalise in society, forced into camps and driven to the bottom rung of the socioeconomic ladder.
I have spoken about this to many people, what's best for indigenous people, and the person who makes the best sense to me is my partner who is Maori. The problems confronting her people are not to dissimilar to the problems of Aboriginal people here. She believes her people first and foremost need to respect their own culture, language and traditions they need to speak for themselves through their own leadership. She believes her people should be a part of the decision making process. Land, they must have land, not to be exploited but to be identified with. My partner also wants to see opportunity in education, employment etc and she wants the young people to value those opportunities when they are presented, "make something of your bloody selves," as she once told an assembly of young Maori's, a third of her age,and others,in a speech she made at 3 o'clock in the morning one July in a rather cold Marae. At least they all listened when "Aunty" spoke.

Mr Opinion,
History, sociology and anthropology are all artistic disciplines, why don't you also quote the findings of ceramicists,printmakers and graphic designers on the issue of land rights?
A person with a B.A in textile design has as much right and an equal authority when talking about colonisation or land rights as do anthropologists or sociologists.
My ancestors were legally entitled to emigrate to this continent and acquired their land legally, that's a scientific fact, not an artistic invention.
Can you back up your assertion that the British are the nastiest race on earth with scientific facts?

I also applaud Pearson.

Years ago whilst attending a conference, I was having a coffee with some indigenous women and they raised the issue of problems within their communities. In unanimous agreement they stated that their menfolk had been emasculated by whites, especially by the governmental bodies 'helping' them.

On reflection, this is a valid statement.

Mr Opinion says "Hasbeen, you and John Howard have two things in common: you both only have one degree and you are both losers". Well thank you Mr O, nice of you to confirm you are nothing more than a professional student.

Just how long have you spent ripping off the tax payer, as a student? How much do you actually intend to contribute to the public who have kept you for so long?

Having wasted our money obtaining multiple degrees, do you even consider getting out of the cloistered ivory tower atmosphere & doing some real work?

Then you tell us "But I don't really care reading anything produced by people with trade degrees like law". Thanks for displaying such breath taking arrogance. Prey tell, what useful subject have you ever studied. Most of us could see you were a twit, but it is nice to see it confirmed. And you call us losers, if you are an example, & damn sure I don't want to be a winner.

I suppose it is understandable that you are a fool, all that rarefied atmosphere must atrophy any brain after a while. I wonder if you could be saved by a few years holding a stop go sign at road works. Nah, that would take too much common sense for you.

Jay of Melbourne and Hasbeen,

You are exactly the sort of people anthropologists, sociologists and historians are looking at when they are trying to explain why things go wrong in a society.

Give them their land back. Wouldn't you want what was rightfully yours?

But it's like business isn't it. It's OK to lie and cheat if it's all in the name of making a profit. Better known as the "Better Business Ethic."

So stealing someone's land and hiding the facts from your descendents is OK as long as it goes under the guise of "Better Land Grabbers Ethics".

People who do not support Aboriginal land claims must have dark hearts.

Mr Opinion says, "I'm still waiting for John Howard to say he's sorry.

Why?

I would suggest the majority of folk are sorry for what happened, but, how can anyone say they are sorry, when theynhad no involvement in what happened?

In any case, some five years on from that very importsnt apology, what's changed?

From the article...."The flipside of the opening up of the doors of citizenship to our people, was the provision of welfare. What should have been provided was opportunities to engage in ... the mainstream economy."

Now there's a laugh!

We provide them with housing, which they trash and burn.

We provide them with cars, which many get abandoned simply because they have a flat battery, or simply run out of fuel.

I have never seen indigenous opportunities being offered like they are today, as all mining companies are welcoming them with open arms, but I hate to sound racist, but I would suggest many don't want the job, as they CAN'T DRINK EVERY SINGLE DAY.

Stop the cash, and you will go a Long way towards addressing the problems.

Give them their land back. Wouldn't you want what was rightfully yours?
Indigenous people all over the world have frequented the places which supported them & with which they were familiar. They had no system nor concept of ownership. They totally understandably & rightfully defended those areas. In times of conflict some of these were taken over by a neighbouring tribe but they did not "own" the land. Ownership was not in their vocabulary at least not on this continent. There is ample evidence that the australian indigenous were a rather warring lot & constantly taking from each other. It therefore comes at a real surprise to me that they so bitterly complain when someone stronger came along a gave them a big dose of their own medicine.
I do agree with their idea of compassion, show some when you can afford it & when you can't don't worry about it. Just go & read some indigenous legends, someone aleays cops the short end of the stick & they nearly always include some degree of violence.
Sit down money is something I'd like to abolish or at least get those to pay who are in favour of it but those who don't support it.

For give, this post is off subject.
After Labors defeat, SOME policy,s will need looking at.
Paul remember if Labor refuses Liberals will do it in a much harsher way.
Welfare, Must! just based on coasts increasing costs with the working life of baby boomer,s near over.
So,New Labor must look at outcomes MOST Australians can live with.
No one should be entitled to get sit down money, it hurts them more than us.
A job, is the answer.
No political party can avoid change, living with a system that is wrong is no answer.
Back on track JOM I believe it is legal, to say one is from country and judge on that,we may yet win that case, I am not being paid for that work.
Leave the bias out side the door, think of the results 200 years of miss management have given.
See that even in 1970 these folk worked but had their wages stolen.
Look at the success some have achieved but know the mass failure many are,we failed them.
Take a while to consider how would you be, if you had been born in to this community?
We can do better, but watch the knee jerk reaction to my thoughts every unemployed person should work on the right wage, not get sit down money.

MO and Paul,

A little learning is a dangerous thing ;
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring :
There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
And drinking largely sobers us again.

Read and learn. Listen and learn. Experience and learn. And perhaps in twenty years, or whenever you reach adulthood, whichever comes second, you can advise us what to think.

Joe

Belly, I have refrained from unleashing a well deserved berating to some on here for their totally bias stance. It is important that we remember and understand history, but unfortunately we can not change it. In my view it is very much a time to move on, remember the sins of the past but some indigenous people do themselves no good continually playing the blame game and nothing else.
I refer once more to my partner, who as a young child was given a European name by the white man, that was when she was 5, was smacked for talking her native language and told that being what she was, she would never get anywhere in life. She didn't have much as a kid living in a large family and her mother died fairly young. The family land was unscrupulously stolen from her father, who was illiterate, by white men, their family homestead was even burnt down, with most of their positions inside, the land is still in white mans hands to this day. You would expect her to have a lot of hate for the Pakeha, but no, in fact just the opposite, she has aroha (love) for all.
As for not amounting to anything, how many of us can claim a future prime minister, and a very good friend, David Longe, attended my wedding. I can't.

rehctub,

You just don't get it. They don't want your trinkets. What they want is their land back. Do that for them and they won't waste it like they do your stupid trinkets that have a use by date.

When will you and people like you admit that YOU ARE THE PROBLEM!

Like I told hasbeen and jay of melbourne, it is people like you that anthropologists, sociologists and historians look at when they try to explain why things go wrong in a society.

Oh god Mr. O, you do go on. Would those anthropologists you talk of be the ones who prostituted themselves, writing whatever the aboriginal legal aid folk told them to? Evidently that was the ticket to access, & more research grants.

How far should this land redistribution go old mate? Should the aborigines who were pushed further south by later arrivals get their land back? Where should the later arrivals go?

Perhaps the Angles & the Saxons should give the British Isles back to the Celts.

Cloud nine can't have too many practicalities when they have the likes of you there.

Mr Opinion,

As we have seen, saying "sorry" is easy to do, and doesn't mean a thing. Just gives the 'sayers' a fuzzy, warm feeling.

Do you really believe that our indigenous peoples (and there are three races) want to live as they did three hundred years ago, or want to live like others - in the 21st century?

Don't you think Noel Pearson has better insight, empathy and understanding of his peoples than you do? What exactly can you bring to the table?

Hasbeen,Danielle
Let's not feed the anti White Troll anymore, they only come around when there's food left out for them.

Jay of Melbourne,

You are correct.

Perhaps Mr Opinion should study archaeology. There has always been movements of people. Australia was destined to be settled by some group. Fact.

I do believe that indigenous culture and languages should be maintained and taught.

In some remote areas, aborigines still live much as they did; others want a 21st century lifestyle. They should have the choice as to how they wish to live ... like all of us do.

Anthropology, sociology and history are but majors of an Arts Degree.

Law is a pure degree.

Law is just a trade like engineering, accountancy, etc., and law degrees are far from being pure.

You people don't want to redress the great wrongs that have been done to the Aboriginal people simply because you are black hearted.

Mr Opinion,

You could lead the exodus of whites from Australia to their places of origin.

A quandary! Many indigenous have more white genes than black.

You really are childish ...

We, every one of us, should ask what type of forum do we want?
Mr opinion likes needling folk, why do we play his games?
Yes, truthfully, SOME Aboriginals are a problem.
Before the increasing numbers of seemingly unaware judges and such, rewarding them, because of who they are, hurts them more than us.
Right now, no voice in this country is as worth while hearing as much as Noel Pearson's.
With out us, sidelining the bigots, on both sides, the harm doing do gooder,s, we stay in the same dead end.
Thoughtful folk, truly thinking, must surely know change is needed.

Danielle

Saying that "Anthropology, sociology and history are but majors of an Arts Degree" tells me that you don't know that one can do a full degree in any one of these fields.

It's a good idea not to make comments on subjects you don't have any knowledge about. It makes you look childish.

Mr Opinon,

And what mickey mouse UNITS are these degrees comprised of ... and how lacking in depth ...

Sociology at Macquarie

examples ...

Naughty boys, bad girls: Gender and discipline at home and at school

The Intimate Sphere: Love, Friendship and Family

Incidentally, you employ the term "blackhearted." Isn't this politically incorrect?

However, I must heed Jay of Melbourne.

I thought Mr Rudds apology was going to fix all this. You aren't telling me they were crocodile (sorry political) tears are you? I wonder if Tony has spent some more of his leave lately doing something practical by helping out the communities. And to think of the propaganda taught in schools.

btw Pearson is a true hero. Seems some have changed their tune on this. Pearson seemed to have a good relationship with Howard.

runner,
he has the knack of telling the not so knowledgeable what they want to hear

This was taken from the Northern Territory News,
13th September 1966:

"A Plea for Help - to the United Nations."

"Our tribal lands have been taken from us and
handed over to big pastoral companies, often
foreign-controlled, and to wealthy mining
companies. We have received only inadequate compensation
for this. However, compensation is not the point, our
people want to have a say in controlling and working
the land.

On the big cattle stations of the Territory our
people work long hours doing skilled, hard and often
dangerous work mustering, branding and injecting
cattle for a miserable pittance of six dollars sixty-six
cents a week. Even Federal Government concerns like
the Army pay Aboriginals in Darwin only 10 to 14
dollars and keep, which is only a fraction of the
payment made to white men.

This is happening in a country which is really ours
and where even the poorest white man receives 40 dollars
a week and usually lives in a comfortable home...

Living conditions on the pastoral properties are
shockingly bad. Most of our people live in humpies
without even minimum hygiene facilities. Their diet
consists of the poorest parts of the meat, tea, flour,
sugar - just enough to keep body and soul together...

In most cases our children do not receive a proper
education and training for jobs. On the majority
of cattle stations education is non-existent. In
recent years hurried, makeshift attempts have been
made by the Australian Government to disguise the
true position which is revealed on investigation,
since all the youth and adult population on pastoral
properties are absolutely illiterate. The special
schools recently provided in some places do not
measure up to the needs of the people. This leads to
a position where the individual has no choice of
employment.

Many of us are robbed of part of our social service
payments like pensions and child endowment in a
disgraceful and illegal manner. Instead of being paid
to the Aboriginal direct these payments go to the
cattle station employers, Missions and Government
Reserve authorities in a lump sum and ..."

cont'd ...

cont'd ...

"we receive only a fraction of it in cash.
Because the food, clothing and shelter
provided for Aboriginals at these places is
inadequate they are actually making a profit
from social service payments."

David Daniels, Secretary, N.T. Aboriginal Rights Council

This was written in 1966 - how much have things improved
today?

It is important to remember that education facilities,
medical care and equality of opportunity were special
"privileges" which, until 1970s, were not available to
most Aborigines.

Has the conscience of Australians finally been awakened
to the fact that Aborigines want to and will make decisions for
themselves. In the past many Aboriginal aid schemes were
run by "whites" who adopted a paternal attitude to
Aborigines treating them like children and considering
that only they knew what was best for Aborigines.

In the last decade, legal aid, land rights, education,
and health care for Aborigines have become the important
issues for government Aboriginal Affairs departments.

Many Australians have never seen an Aboriginal Australian,
and perhaps through ignorance, their plight has been
overlooked.

Hopefully today progress is being made at last in the
Aborigines' fight for the chance to survive in today's
Australia, and although much needs to be done, perhaps
the outlook is more hopeful now than it was in the past.

This was written in 1966 - how much have things improved
today?
Lexi,
How can you expect answers to bad questions & this is one. If you had even the slightest of slight inkling you would ask why things haven't changed enough despite huge amounts of effort, good will & even more money being thrown at a problem & mentality that can not be solved & improved by others.

nothing can ever change while the industry plays the victim card. This is the easiest way to keep the dollars flowing. The totally unbalanced academics view will continue to be justifcation to allow the woman bashing, the violence, the child abuse to continue and to blame people most of who were not around 50 years ago let alone 200.

Hi Lexi,

I think that may have been written by the legendary Frank Hardy, when he was up with the Gurindji at Wattie Creek. Stirring times !

A lot of water has flown under a multitude of bridges since then.

Different ball game these days.

Cheers,

Joe

I thought Lexi wrote that.

Here I am thinking to myself "What a great writer that Lexi is. He deserves more credit."

Must have plenty of time on his hands to spend copying that out.

I am forced to admit what the thread has proved.
As well as left wing do gooder,s, the very right/unintelligent bigotry has an impact.
I too think it was the great Frank Hardy that wrote that.
We have seen great improvements from then, Withlams actions and the Redfern speech from Paul.
But still people live in shanty,s and die early .
I again want to highlight, just how would we be today if this was our birth place, not the location, the ever pressing povity and lack of education.
Every time one from this back ground climbs out, say Lionel Rose, we claim them as our own.
But bring to our attention the truth, we have failed, and watch the statements of what clearly is a bigotry, start to flow.
If Hardy was still alive I like to think he would return to the UN theme asking Australia this question.
*Do you intend to ever fix this problem, or are you deliberately stalling progress*.

Belly,

Poverty ? No. Squalor ? Yes. We lived in a 'community' during the seventies and I went back later to do some research on the economic development of the place (8.000 acres, unlimited water licence), and as an afterthought, with a good friend from there, did an income study (totally unethical, wouldn't be allowed these days). We found that the average (median) income of that 'community' was equal to the Australian median income. This is back in 1982.

In fact, taking into account extremely low rents back then, the people in that 'community' were some 10-20 % better off than the average (median) Australian.

Certainly, Aboriginal 'communities' often look as if they are in poverty. But Bangla Desh is poverty - and the poorest villages there are clean, bare as buggery but clean. Wrecked cars all over the place is not poverty - it's the capacity to buy a lot of cars and wreck them.

While we are on the topic of vegetable gardens - back in the Mission days, the missionaries in almost all Aboriginal Missions had gardens and orchards and chook yards and a handful of cows for milk. I suspect now that they also did by far the bulk of the work. When people heard they could get onto welfare, everywhere they walked off, not even turning the taps off.

It must have been hard work to hunt and gather, but the ethic that people perceived as forming the foundation of their society was not work, but magic, ritual, ceremony, spells. Of course, in the early days of contact, some people grasped the notion of a work ethic quickly, particularly young people, but it must have been a pretty fragile plant.

Joe

Belly,
You said, "If Hardy was still alive I like to think he would return to the UN theme asking Australia this question.
*Do you intend to ever fix this problem, or are you deliberately stalling progress"

Fair crack of the whip. Hardy may ask that, but can you tell me what has not been tried? Labor governments simply threw money at the matter. There was a form of almost self government with ATSIC, which failed. The Libs were shocked by the abuse of children report and found a lot of opposition to remedy that. People like Pearson have tried various enterprises with only limited success. Nearly everyone says education is the key but how to get school attendance?

It is not for the want of trying, fresh practical ideas would be welcome, I am sure. We have to keep trying to find things that work. I understand there is a community near Newcastle that went from the highest rate of child abuse to the lowest. Now to try and replicate that would be my starting point.

Dear Belly,

Not sure who really wrote the earlier plea
that I cited, it was signed by
"Davis Daniels, Secretary, N.T. Aboriginal Rights Council."

Here's another excerpt on Aborigines taken from the
same text, "The Changing Australians: A social history."
Written in 1977.

"True, the government has spent more money and energy
on Aborigines in the past five years than in the
previous fifty ... One Aborigine - Neville Bonner -
is now a member of the federal parliament... Sir Douglas
Nicholls - an Aborigine - was installed as the new
Governor of South Australia; he is the only Aborigine
to ever receive this honour.

Many are consigned to ghettos in the city suburbs, where
they live midst wall-to-wall poverty in crumbling,
rat-infested terrace houses. Or they live listless lives
on the outskirts of country towns, banished to "humpies"
or ramshackle shelters made of cardboard, bark and tin ...

Some work as stockmen or gardeners, but two-thirds are
unemployed...Even though families receive pension cheques
and unemployments insurance payments, 70 per cent of the
town's Aboriginal children are truant because they do not
have enough to eat and lack the energy to go to school ...

Why, then do they come to Alice Springs? "For the dole, grog,
and protection of white man," say the cynical townspeople.
Some whites insist that there was no problem in Alice Springs
before the Aborigines got their rights. "It's the do-gooders
from the south and the blow-ins coming to make a fast buck
who stir up all the trouble," says the Chief of Detectives...
"Formerly we had only 28 coppers, now we have 76. But the
real worry is not the Aborigines. It is that whites will
take the law into their own hands.

Perhaps only in Alice Springs could one of the world's
most sophisticated electronic installations stand plumb in
the centre of one of the world's most primitive societies."

Many things have changed since then. Much has been achieved.
Tolerance and understanding have broadened out.
But the past still weighs heavily on the present.
Hopefully we will continue to find answers through
education.

Its a weird world.

The Pakistani girl that was shot by the Taliban for promoting the right of girls to get an education, is off to the UN for a speech.

Here we have schools and teachers available and we cannot get aboriginal kids to attend and their parents don't seem to care.

Maybe if we removed the schools they would then want them.

Banjo,

I think there is such a sense of hopelessness with so many. Somehow, we need to ensure they can reclaim their dignity, and ensure their position in our society. And we certainly need to value their culture and languages.

Their successes should be heralded. So many of the white community see only the grimmer side.

Noel Pearson is absolutely correct.

A woman who had lived in aboriginal communities (quite a long time and returning often) learning and recording their languages, observed that our methods of teaching children would not be suitable for indigenous children. She was very specific as how to teach them successfully.

She was advisor to some committee, but as usual, nothing was done.

Loudmouth well yes, and yes to Danielle too.
Let us look, or try to, at what I am saying.
Even newly built housing in *missions* soon becomes shanty,s.
Culture, what is a culture, if not the habitual ways folk live and react to each other?
In my lifetime I see a culture we helped to create.
Police cars used late at night as taxys for drunks.
To get them home and out of trouble.
Here Banjo, is what I mean, a sense of entitlement born and breed in to community.
That sponsors failure.
I think if jobs accountable jobs, are the way we help, not free hand outs, if we commit to education that as is the case with our own kids must take place.
If we try new ways not forever sponsoring old tried failures.
Banjo tough love is true love.
As for my wish in that post, Hardy,s words or not he a true lefty, knew the truth, we have failed.
IF we saw an investigation in to our actions, some with out difficulty, could put a case we, without that tough love, are not truly trying.

Hi Belly,

Maybe what is needed is a bit more of 'blaming the victim' - that the people themselves ought to be getting off their backsides and doing for themselves what other ordinary human beings do for themselves - feeding their kids, keeping their houses clean and healthy, trying to eat at least some of the right foods and get at least the tiniest bit of exercise, for their own health.

After all, if you own a car, whose job is it to keep it in running order. Yours. It's the same with a person's health - whose job is it if not theirs ?

And please, Mr Self-Opinion, don't give me any more of that horse sh!t about poverty - people up north get mining royalties, enough to pay off a house. At Mutitjulu, near Uluru, each household got $ 14,000 in national park royalties in 2011. That would pay off a house right there.

And while we are on the subject, where else in the world does some government authority build houses on the people's land, THEIR land, for them, and repeat the process every seven years or so ?

No - let's pass some of the responsibility - hey, why not all the responsibility ? - back on to the people ? That's an empirical, not a rhetorical, question. Why aren't we assuming that Aboriginal people in remote areas can do for themselves, look after themselves, take on ordinary human responsibilities, like other human beings ?

What sort of racism is it that says, aaaaw, don't expect anything like that from those poor, backward people ? They'll need an army of social workers forever, they are so useless - so quaint, so charming, so cultural, but so useless.

Pure racism, folks. Treat humans like humans. Expect from them as you would from other people. No excuses.

Joe

Belly,
Its a hell of a problem and we do not need UN bureaucrats coming here advising us. I know you did not suggest that.

You cannot do anymore for a drunk than put him somewhere safe, he has to decide to change. I would concentrate on the kids.

You said 'Tough love is true love' Yep I go along with that, but how? Can't actually drag them to school, we have tried enticement and tried penalising the parents. do we cart them off to a boarding school somewhere. Imagine what the Greens and 'do gooders' would say about that. We don't even remove kids from abusive parents because we are fearfull of a 'stolen generation'. Not game to act in kids best interests and get them to safety.

The community I spoke of near Newcastle was a few years ago now and I cannot recall its name but I was impressed with what they had done. What has happened since I do not know.

I am out of fresh ideas, wish there was a way to resolve the issue.

Hi Danielle,

A sense of hopelessness ? Maybe, but at least as much, a sort of arrogance - that many Aboriginal people feel, that they are entitled, they don't have to do anything, whites should be doing it all for them. They are the lords of the Earth.

I remember back in the seventies, when I was trying to work up a vegetable garden up on the community, I had this naive notion that people would reciprocate effort. No. Whatever someone else does, that simply means you can do less. If it was my destiny to grow vegetables, their role was to take them. There were people there, relatively young people, who had never worked a day in their lives - their short lives because they usually died of the grog back then.

Welfare is vital in small doses, but it kills in large, lifelong doses. But of course, try telling that to a social worker - their careers depend on keeping people in such a condition. And there's always more blackfellas for them when this lot die off.

Joe

Dear Joe (Loudmouth),

Claims of "passive welfare culture" and
blaming the Indigenous for not rebuilding their
communities is like claiming that the people of
Adelaide suffer power blackouts because they're
too lazy to generate their own electricity.

Aboriginal people have been marginalised from
mainstream society since the arrival of the British.

The barriers to Aboriginal employment are complex -
but they all spring from the same root cause -
dispossession, marginalisation and institutionalised
racism.

The dispossession of Aboriginal people's land and the
historic Indigenous people's concentration
in isolated parts of Australia have created pockets of
extreme disadvantage.

Much of the discussion on Indigenous employment is focused
on these areas. The lack of infrastructure and social
services are part of the problem and unemployment
is as high as 80% in these communities.

by Mr Opinion, ....What they want is their land back

You're kidding rant you!

Sure, they may want their land back, but, the conditions will be, their continued welfare payments, FOR NOTHING.

On the other hand, if their land is all they want, then tell us which part, of cause it will have to be land that has no developments on it, as all types of developments have been generating taxes, some of which has paid their SIT DOWN MONEY.

So, let us know what land, then we can fence it off, and set them free to hunt and gather till their hearts are content.

No tools, no cloths, no shelter,no weapons NO DOLE and all the alcohol they like, so Long as they make it from natal bush herbs, or what ever.

Now, do you think that's really what they would want. I DOUBT IT!

Dear Lexi,

Out of my deep respect for you and your tendency to always see the good side in people, I have to point out that:

* the Indigenous people doing best (as a proportion of those 33,000 uni graduates) are those who have lost most, and now form the bulk of the urban Indigenous population,

* and the people who are 'doing' worst are those who have suffered least from colonialism, and who generally have got their land back.

No ?

Put it another way:

* the Indigenous people whose health, education and employment rates are MOST similar to those of the rest of Australia, are those who 'lost' their land very early;

* the Indigenous people whose health, education and certainly employment rates are LEAST like those of other Australians are those who have re-claimed, and perhaps never lost (in their perception), their land, but who are most distant, alienated, segregated, from the rest of Australia.

Yes ?

Time for a re-think, Lexi. For all of us.

Love,

Joe

Loudmouth,

"A sense of hopelessness ? Maybe, but at least as much, a sort of arrogance ..."

I understand you completely. I think this attitude can also be seen in some sections of the wider community who also are life-long welfare recipients, and who accept this as their due.

A victim mentality, which saps them of any initiative and from taking responsibility for themselves.

Often it is very people who are supposed to be 'helping' them, who impose this mentality upon them, and also collude in maintaining the victim-hood status. Thus, robbing them of dignity.

So much for those sociologists; they need to go back to the drawing board

Dear Joe (Loudmouth),

You know more on this issue than I do
so I have to bow to your expertise.
However, answer me this question.
Is the infrastructure and social services
there for them in rural areas? Why the
80% unemployment rate?

Is the infrastructure and social services there for them in rural areas?
Why the 80% unemployment rate.
Lexi,
The first answer is yes, yes & yes again just to make sure. In case you still have doubts I am one of those many non-idigenous who do not enjoy have half as much infrastructure & support.
The second answer is that even though the work is available it is not wanted. If you think it is then ask yourself why there are thousands upon thousands of outsiders going to the communities & making very good money which is then taken back to be spent where it first came from. Why is it not spent in the communities you may ask ? Because the communities will not & can not sell land for people to live & spend their money there, only their working life then they have to get out.

Dear Lexi,

The short answer is 'yes'.

Go back a few years and have a look at the plant and infrastructure of an Indigenous 'community': phenomenal, enough for towns ten times their size.

After all, the population of many Indigenous settlements is very low, usually less than two hundred,often less than fifty, and non-Indigenous villages of that size would have pretty close to nothing at all, in the way of infrastructure. And what they have, the population there has usually had to fork out for and fund itself.

Sorry, my dear friend, that's not it.

A good old-fashioned work ethic might do the trick. How to get people used to that idea, that nothing comes from nothing, that if they put nothing in they are entitled to nothing out, is the problem.

Joe

Joe much of what you say, even if you are pulling my leg is true.
But you know as do others, a culture that has love but no discipline is a failure.
I believe me, have trouble putting my thoughts on this issue in to words.
I am truly, in pain on this issue.
Kids now adults I bought up are wed in to this community and are of no help the boys/men, to them settling in to the same culture drinking just as much neglecting just as much.
How many know about the increased birth rates in this community?
How many understand the kids in foster care rose at the same rate as the births?
That in my tiny village 13 kids are fostered?
We can not just put in their hands and say you fix it!
Some can not read or write,some never went to school.
I wish too we had a thousand Noel s.
But get PC and whites out of the gravy train.
Put laws in place and jobs, for all unemployed white or any color.
We need to put in place a Social contract, that lifts even the unwilling out of this cesspit.

Belly,
the scariest part of it all is that some of them get into public service positions at a very handsome rate of pay. Their pay & subsequent mismanagement expenses are sanctioned by white unionists & bureaucrats at our cost.

Dear Joe (Loudmouth),

Thanks for that.

How do you change these mind-sets, including
our own about the Aboriginal people?

We now know a great deal about the problems that
confront them and us - but knowing brings burdens
which can be shirked by those living in ignorance.
With knowledge the question is no longer what we
know - but what we are now to do, and that's a much
harder matter to deal with.

It will continue to perplex us for many years to come.

Hi Lexi,

Yes, you're right, but I've always perceived (perhaps mis-perceived) self-determination as meaning, right from the outset, that people have to grapple with their own issues, themselves, that ultimately the Aboriginal people have to solve their own problems, and genuinely self-determine - within the bounds of what is possible - what they need to do, and therefore to find a way through the thicket of problems that have arisen over the last forty years when people DIDN'T think they had to solve their own problems, they had been wronged so whites should fix it all up.

Maybe I'm getting old and grumpy like one of those old f@rts on The Muppets, but given that Aboriginal people are as intelligent as anybody else, and the undeniable fact that their problems are THEIR problems, then in the first instance they should be the people who step up to resolve THEIR own problems.

How to persuade people of that, when it is all so easy to blame colonialism, whites, myths of all sorts like 'Stolen Generation', 'Terra Nullius', missionaries' stopping culture etc., etc., and not have to do anything about THEIR predicament.

Love,

Joe

On the other hand, there's this sort of story:

http://www.news.com.au/national-news/aboriginal-pastoralist-frank-shadforth-says-australia-is-the-grip-of-a-national-alcohol-crisis/story-fncynjr2-1226593854348

People make choices, more or less. People are not puppets, or sheep.

It is my view we are neglecting some problems here.
First the problem is not linked to the amount of money thrown at it.
It is far different for small town, mission type folk than some city based ones.
And is not helped by those who do not under stand it.
Daniele may have, in fact does have a point.
Do we understand a culture has grown, not in any way related to the one these folk had, that see,s a people full of deep social problems.
From just shyness to full on not wanting contact out side the community.
I am not the product of unwed parents!
But we should look at integration, while respecting the true culture and right to pursue it these folk need.
A system, based on a National one, for all unemployed, that sees and end to all unemployment benefits!
Replaces it with a job, fairly paid, job,with community benefits.
A job that takes no ones existing job, even stands alone .
We should make room for education and training in that plan, and include all the work needed in those missions community's to get them cleaned up.
I would hope, those who want it, or can be talked in to it, stay in education and get paid, to get to the level loudmouth talks about.
I see some posts bitter, and that mirrors the truth, on both sides, some are bigots, the few lucky for us.
I ask this, what are governments for.
If not to make life and living conditions better, why too do we continue to fail?
Some may think we set out to fail, to leave the problem to fester in the bush, to our shame.

And is not helped by those who do not under stand it.
Belly,
You've hit the nail on the head. That is exactly what I've been waffling on about for 30 years. We alway get these short-term career public servants whose only interest is their career & their Super. Insane amounts of money are thrown at what outsiders perceive as a problem yet the problem is the outsiders and, they're the ones getting the money. The blame goes to those who have absolutely no say nor benefit from anything.

Loudmouth,
Much of what Frank Shadforth says is true. Grog is a problem not only in aboriginal communities but else where as well.

I see the carnage and fights because of booze and think why do they not bring back 10 o'clock closing, it is obvious that many cannot handle additional hours of drinking. From what I read there is a lot less violence in the dry aboriginal communities, so why not implement more of that.

Hey I am no wowser, I enjoy a few beers and the socializing, but surely anyone can see that too much of a good thing is killing our society.

I look up to practical blokes like Frank. Bet he runs a successful place as well.

Hi Banjo,

Yes, if only Aboriginal people in remote and rural communities really wanted self-determination, the power to take responsibility for their own lives and those of their kids, then we might start to get somewhere.

Yes, I'm still a self-determinationist :)

Cheers,

Joe

Dear Joe (Loudmouth),

You've got my vote for going and helping
them reach their self-determinational goals.
They desperately need role-models like yourself
to lead the way.

With the exception of a few of contributors, Belly’s thread has become an ill-informed bias racial rant. The use of out of context, isolated facts to illustrate a holistic picture misrepresents the points being discussed.

I spent my formative years and was educated in central Australia. I have been to most of the settlements in central Australia and travelled extensively in the area. At one point I worked for these people and have a deep respect for the vast majority of them as I do for the majority of Australian irrespective of their background. Most of these people have a greater grasp on reality than the bigoted, bias and ill-informed opinion reflected by most of the contributors to this thread.

Although I visit regularly, I no longer live in the area. I am aware that the alcohol issue has been amplified in Alice Spring due to alcohol restriction in the settlements. Imagine what would happen if alcohol was no longer available in the Sydney suburbs and people had to travel to the city centre to get their fix. This issue isn’t racial, its addiction.

There should be no “sit down money” for anyone anywhere. I repeat “I believe every person of working age in this country is entitled to a fair share of this countries productivity however should be required to do something meaningful for it, for a prescribed amount of time.” There should be no precondition to this entitlement or the requirement to do something meaningful for it.

Producer,
Can you enlighten those who criticise out of pure innocent ignorance how much travel & locality allowance you were paid whilst working as you say for "these people" with money provided not by them but by taxpayers ?
I know from personal experience that most do-gooders are actually raking in the dough in those communities.

Loudmouth,
If by self-determination you mean each person taking responsibility for their lives, I will go along with that.

But if you mean that aboriginals as a group to determine by self government, with taxpayers money, then I object to that. ATSIC proved that is a road to dissaster.

Maybe we stop having policy for all aboriginals as a group, but determine the level of assistance on where people live. For example is an aboridinal in a remote area any worse off that an Indian, Afghan, Eskimo or Anglo next door. I would class all as disadvantaged because of where they live. Urban based aboriginals have the same advantages as everyone else in that urban area.

Australia is now very much a multi-racial society so is not disadvantage determined by where one lives.

Individual said - Can you enlighten those who criticise out of pure innocent ignorance how much travel & locality allowance you were paid whilst working as you say for "these people" with money provided not by them but by taxpayers ? I know from personal experience that most do-gooders are actually raking in the dough in those communities.

Individual – I thought this forum was for enlightened informed discussion. I would suggest some of the ignorance is not so innocent. The answer to your next two assumptions is none and none. I believe the funds to set up the enterprise did originate from the taxpayer as do a lot of enterprises throughout this country like government, education, health, sport, religion to mention some. I hope I did some good although what I did was not spectacular. I simply drove trucks and converted busses for wages that moved supplies and people to and from a number of settlements. It was no big deal. It did enable me to see settlements like Papunya, Yuendumu, Areyonga and Docker River to name a few uninsulated. I have also lived or spent time at Tennant Creek, Ti Tree, Yallara, Darwin and greater the top end.

I do agree that there are a lot of parasites making a lot of money from government initiated activities. This phenomenon is not restricted to remote communities, they riddle our greater society. They take more than their share and they create more issues than they solve

Cont.

Cont.

I made the following comments some time ago in another post that I believe are relevant:

Firstly, I believe that it is a right that everyone should have shelter even if an individual does not have the “financial means to buy (or build)”. Clearly it’s more desirable if individuals are able to own and build their own residence. It is virtually impossible when individuals have been forced, have no choice or are born into a ghetto be it in the middle of a city, on the outskirts of a town or in a remote part of this vast country. This is further compounded when there is poor education, health and nothing to do. Put anyone in any of these situations and the result will be the same.

Until all Australians whatever their location or circumstances are able to access food, shelter, health and education, the right to “ownership to their own castle” is a moot point. Australians that find themselves in these situations must be allowed and/or assisted to develop self-determination themselves, that counteracts the bureaucrats, politicians, god bothers, manipulative yella fellas and do-gooder’s.

The root of the issue is that we treat the first Australians differently. This is I believe is wrong and segregates or community. More help should go to the greatest need, because it is needed and for no other reason.

I would be interested in your personal experience of do-gooders?

I would be interested in your personal experience of do-gooders?
Producer,
I appreciate your reply. Now to your question. I have witnessed so many do-gooders showing up in the communities & due to their brainwashed idealistic mentality have undone years upon years of very good work by those who lived & worked in the communities.
In the main the do-gooders are left wing academic back ground. I have witnessed locals being so manipulated into believing the guilt industry merchants & by doing so the communities became divided & dysfunctional. If you were there in the capacity you say you were then you know what I'm on about.
In the past 25 years no actual training in any trade has occurred. Evereyone was brainwashed into believing that all non-indigenous owed them a living & that's how the guilt industry got off the ground. It has destroyed all social life & discipline that was there before Labor got into power. In a nutshell Labor, by way of its ignorant cronies has destroyed the indigenous communities.

Producer I like most of what you have said however there is a but.
Your personnel experience is not the only one.
Different cultures are to be found in so many places.
Mine while it has touched on true out back people is the far different urban dwellers, and even more different small country towns one.
Loudmouth I am with you too but!
Even self determination needs heads to lead, in the right direction, for the community, not sadly, as some have, ripping off their own people.
Producer we agree, I took it further *no dole* a job always.
But a well thought out one, that leaves room for continuing education and training for what ever trade they want.
I my nearest mission, NT people would not know the people are theirs, Children appearing for school hungry and untidy, going just to get away from *sexual assaults* yes not the few, but most, and if that is not tragic nothing is.

Individual – You have tried to boil it down to a political red and blue issue that only applies to a certain part of our population. This is not the case and has never been the case. Both franchises are as bad as each other and although more concentrated in the communities is a nationwide issue.

By the way they are Ickydumic's not Academic’s. They come in left and right handed versions. Some are even ambidextrous. They generally can be identified by the requirement to be centre of attention, bow ties, scarves and bright coloured glasses. I have a lot of respect for Academic’s and would not want them bundled in with the other lot.

You have not acknowledged the part that bureaucrats, god bothers or manipulative yella fellas. Then there are local businesses that cash in as well.

I have suggested:

“The concept of welfare is flawed. There should be “no sit down” money (the dole) but should be replaced by a minimum wage that is higher than the dole. It is “sit down” money and only this that causes welfare dependency whether it is on a remote aboriginal settlement or the suburbs of Sydney. I believe every person of working age in this country is entitled to a fair share of this countries productivity however should be required to do something meaningful for it, for a prescribed amount of time.

Most importantly these activities should be controlled and tailored at local level, not centralised government.

Some activities that come to mind are SES, volunteer fire brigade, public housing, child care and elder care. Everybody has the ability to do something meaningful, whereas work for the dole is seen and is demeaning. The minimum wage should rise and fall with our nation’s productivity.”

What solution would you suggest?

(The answer is not elect Mr Rabbott and his mob, keep it simple)

Stop the cash and watch many of the problems disappear.

No cash, means no splash!

(The answer is not elect Mr Rabbott and his mob, keep it simple)
producer,
All your rhetoric & then you don't want to give it any chance to change for the better ? The mind boggles ?

Come on Individual don’t side step, be one and challenge my concept and pull it to bits if you dare. Don’t be individually the same as others of your philosophy! I have broad shoulders and can take it. Review my previous posts, I have no allegiance to any franchise. I don’t have an eye patch nor do I miss limbs on a particular side of my body. There nothing on my left or right shoulder whispering in my ear. Convince me, I am open to change.

To have witnessed stuff you would had to have been close or is it as you say “rhetoric”.

As for you rehctub, I say to much cash to much splash. Reduce the cash and watch many of the problems disappear. The subjects however are at the other end of the spectrum.

I have no allegiance to any franchise.
Producer,
If you don't want the Coalition means you want Labor to stay because you can't realistically expect any other party to get into power.
So if you're saying Labor should stay then you're saying continue the rorts in the communities.

Welfare is vital for anybody caught out for a short time. But past a certain time, maybe three months, maybe six months, and a person on welfare gets resigned to it, or used to it, or prefers it. Why should able-bodied people be on welfare ? Why don't they have skills to get work ? So why aren't opportunities to train for those skills available ?

Even without much in the way of skills, people can still pick fruit, or melons or peas or whatever.

So, if such a job is available within, say, 45 minutes of driving, then welfare payments for able-bodied people, who are not looking after kids or disabled, should be suspended. In gthe seventies, in fruit-growing areas, it was taken for granted that UB was suspended once the picking season started.

The alternatie to hard, boring, dirty and dangerous work is to get better skills - ideally, as Twiggy Forrest has found, the jobs should be identified and people should get the skills for those jobs. It shouldn't take too long for basic skills-attainment, six months max.

Once people are required to work, then they - and their kids - might start to 'appreciate' the need to get better skills, and get out of lousy jobs into better ones. And maybe, just maybe, that notion will get acrosss to kids - that take it for granted, they will have to work, so they had better get some decent skills, and for that, they need a regular education.

There's a lot of ifs in all that, but that's maybe the only hard, bitter route available, especially if people have allowed their skills and education to decline to almost nothing.

[TBC]

[contd.]

Maybe the tragedy these days is that there aren't enough lousy, dirty, boring, hard, dangerous jobs around like there used to be in the fifties and sixties, jobs that gave migrants their chance so that they could help their kids do better than they did.

Can the economy provide such lousy jobs ? Or is it too late for people in those remote 'communities' ?

The bottom line is that unless parents realise they should be working, their kids will never realise that they should be studying. Their kids will almost inevitably look for the soft option that their useless parents have taken.

Joe

Loudmouth this is one of the things that used to really annoy me in New Guinea. With only 25% of the population in & around towns like Rabaul with any sort of work, even the government would bring in a back hoe to dig a hole or a trench.

I had a squatters village near me. With no benefit system they all wanted any work offered, & gave tremendous value for the little they were paid. I could never understand using white feller machinery, with all that willing workforce available.

This post may seem to slip away from the thread, not in my view.
First rechtub, your last post, it may not seem so to you, but in effect it promotes starvation.
It is my view Labor will need to reform, both its own body and its policy,s.
I remain both ALP and convinced we are taking great policy,s to our grave come election.
Heated words will come, welfare brings heat,but all welfare and much both sides demand and treasure is fixed in our way of life but we can change without pain its out comes.
I think it is time for us to prop up those things that need it, and can be challenged by conservatives, or they will do it in a harsher way, for us.
Social welfare, can become a path for change in its self, in my view must.
We still have no idea how we find the work, not in my view in any way taking current jobs, self defeating.
But once, know it, like it or not, we got jobs in country towns for folk who never would have one, with governments state and local, we can do that again.
I hope Labor will lead the change, surely we understand jobs made should be true ones requiring good work out comes and true effort by workers.
Holding down a real job, in my view, is first foot step on the way out of the hell, for all, in sit down money.

Another side step Individual

Clearly you haven’t read my previous posts and you are stuck in the one or the other politics pedalled by the two major franchises. They are the same dog Individual with a slightly different leg action, but the same dog whether you like it or not. If you were close to the issue over a 25 year period you would be aware the rorts as you call them happened before, during and up to the current period. The red franchise has not been in power that long.

For the next election it is reasonable to expect neither party to have absolute power as MINI-ME has in Queensland, with less than 50% of the vote. My preference which is clearly on the record is HANG them this election and move to representative democratic proportional system. If you support neither you would support this as well?

Now don’t get side tracked, respond to my specific challenge, what solution would you suggest? Debate me if you dare!

Loudmouth – You clearly have concerns with the current system, what are your thoughts regarding replacing the dole (sit down money) with a minimum wage with conditions linked to productivity?

Belly – You cannot expect an Ineptocracy of parasites to progress change. Like all revolution it will come from the base not the tip. The tail is wagging the proverbial red dog. You are flogging a dead horse, but the other one is dead also. We need lots of ponies.

Hi Producer,

More work horses, fewer show-ponies :)

I'm not sure what you mean by ": .... replacing the dole (sit down money) with a minimum wage with conditions linked to productivity.... "

Doesn't somebody have to have a job to get a minimum wage ? And if we talk about productivity, then we can't be talking about make-work jobs, and probably, in many 'communities', there are not, and never will be, any genuine jobs - except jobs for social workers that depend on maintaining people on welfare, that is. So to avoid that ghastly situation, people will probably have to move to get jobs. Stiff. Join the world.

And most likely, the people in remote 'communities' who move will be younger women, young mothers desperate to do something for their kids. Most likely too, the only jobs they can do, apart from child care and other [possibly] make-work jobs, are pretty crummy jobs like cleaning, stacking shelves, in towns like Tennant Creek and Port Augusta and Kalgoorlie.

If people are not prepared to do that sort of thing, then I honestly don't see any future for them, or their kids. Let's be honest - people in remote 'communities' have turned their backs on mini-projects like vegetable gardens, vineyards, orchards, etc. and a host of other suggestions, many of which could have been viable. And if not those, what then ?

And if not projects at 'communities', then where ? The glaring answer - and for individuals - is to get to towns, and to look for whatever crummy work might be available and seize it with both hands.

No, Pollyanna, there may not be a fairy-tale ending to this story.

Joe

Now don’t get side tracked, respond to my specific challenge, what solution would you suggest? Debate me if you dare!
Producer,
I have continuously pressed the issue of reducing the public service, reducing public service pays, introducing national service & introduce a flat tax.
That would go a very long way towards sorting the rorts which as you say have been in place under various administrations but exploded out of proportion under Labor.
I would do away with much of the expensive machinery & introduce some pick & shovel work to get people to understand what work is. I would not just simply give them jobs in the public service just to meet some quota. Once a young person has successfully completed an apprenticeship they can then go on to bigger & better things that are available to anyone who has the skills. I would abolish those one week TAFE courses & turn TAFE into a Trade college for apprentices to attend in their own towns.
Last but not least I would not let a young teacher loose in a classroom unless they've done two years national service. Also, I would demand that teachers can spell before going into a classroom.

Producer, you say how would you fix the problem, well, for starters, stop paying cash,as it is too easily wasted.

This may not fix the problem, but it will most certainly address one f the main causes f the problem.

I feel like I am watching an episode of Bargain Hunt.
A TV show when cash is given to buy well and sell at a profit, keeping the profit.
Like this thread folk forget the needed out come, buying what they like.
Not what will make a profit.
No one should like the missions out comes, by why measure that out comes based on our life not theirs?
How can we not understand some of the parents and grand parents never learned to read or right, and not only in this community the kids will not as well.
First focus on the problem, do not put impossible requests, think how we can help them fix it.
Accountability, a requirement for us all, why minimum wages? some surely will have higher skills and my scheme never was intended to cut existing jobs or wages.
Some with big family's however stay home and get more than wages, we are foolish not to see this.

Well we have stalled.
But we did get some agreement change ineeded.
We even got a few less one sided bigoted views that try to paint a people as unwilling to try.
I found things I liked came out but no concrete answers.
May I revisit a theme I started here, but have known from the day I gave up nappy,s.
Both sides of politics want change, both try, to put their version of what is best.
Just maybe in the midst of its re building, Labor may consider putting together a way forward , not the usual, a plan Liberals dislike so much they wreck it on replacing us.
Labor understands it must not move to the left, that path is death.
But new Labor can/should look at new ways to insure Social justice, after it retakes its heart and sole back from its runaway right owners.

Sorry for the delayed response. I had to produce some stuff to pay some parasites.

Loudmouth – Appreciate the response.

You’re never going to get rid of the show ponies in politics. However I was meaning the parliament would be much healthier with a lot more smaller players none of which could have control rather than the current two large non representative dead horses that are currently being propped up.

Productivity is key to my life philosophy. Money only has value as a result of productivity and the wealth and income of our nation fluctuates with that productivity. For example if the country was full of Lawyers, politicians and accountants the country would be broke. They produce nothing, they are parasites but are still entitled to a share (although not as much as they take now) of the nation’s productivity.

The issue I have with most suggestion made most contributors is they are too specific and generally reflects the writers life experience. I include myself in this comment. Some ideas I agree with and other I don’t but they tend to get bogged in detail.

My suggestions are simplistic:

• There should be “no sit down” money (the dole), should be replaced by a minimum wage that is higher than the dole that fluctuates with national productivity.

• To qualify for the minimum wage an individual would have to do something meaningful, within their community for a specific amount of time.

• Most importantly these activities should be controlled and tailored at local level, not centralised government.

Linking the wage to productivity avoids cost blowouts. Individuals are required to interact with their community reducing isolation and marginalisation. A significant amount of their time is used in a meaningful way. Because control is local, what they individuals do ultimately benefits themselves and their wider community. It will tailor itself to any location, any culture and compliment local conditions. It has the ability to evolve and change.

Thankyou – The End

Hi Producer,

That was supposed to be the purpose of the Community Development Employment Program, CDEP, which Fraser brought in in the late seventies - in that Coombsian/Utopian framework, that communities would identify what work was needed and the people there would do it. Everybody would skip merrily to work, for two days a week, and all would be rosy.

Fat chance.

CDEP programs became glorified sit-down money - in the 'communities' I am aware of in SA, people were hardly ever trained if they didn't want to be, or apprenticed, or prepared for any sort of genuine work - so many people spent twenty or more years doing two days a week of 'home duties', mowing their own lawn, etc.

You would surely agree that that is not productive.

And the bottom line of it all was that absolutely nothing had to be generated within the community - it was all funded from outside. Now, that is NOT productive.

But it can go on forever as long as governments are prepared to pay for it. Thankfully, the Howard government had had gutful by 2006 and started to wind some of the programs down. In response, communities bankrupted their economic potential by paying out their CDEP participants, i.e. themselves, all their back-pay, long-service leave, sick leave, holiday pay, etc., etc., and setting the debt against whatever 'productive' capacity they had, equipment, plant, etc.

So that opportunity has been lost, and forever. What dumb-@rse government is going to do that twice ? CDEP cost billions every year and for what ? For a pack of drunks and child-abusers, some may say (I couldn't possibly comment) ?

People abused a historic opportunity. It won't happen again. So now they will have to look for work or wallow in their squalor in remote sink-holes. They did it. Not colonialism. Not some nasty government: the people - with eyes wide open - buggered up their own opportunities and may have to take the consequences.

Meanwhile, in the cities, the Indigenous people who have lost all their land forever ........

Loudmouth

Where In my previous post did I say these activities although desirable should be productive?

Was there any reference that my suggestions were exclusive to remote communities, on the contrary?

I am aware of CEDP and what I suggest is not. You seem however to say CEDP was better than the current situation. If so Howard was wrong and perhaps was just unable to manage it!

Government (we) spend a lot of money on the Catholic Church and they harbour child abusers and paedophiles and no doubt some drunks as well.

I think your last post illustrates my comment:

“The issue I have with most suggestion made most contributors is they are too specific and generally reflects the writers life experience. I include myself in this comment. Some ideas I agree with and other I don’t but they tend to get bogged in detail.”

Your comments lead me to imagine you have a permanent rash in your neck area

Hi producer,

I'm certainly not saying that CDEP was better than anything around now - CDEP was a disaster, a betrayal of self-determination by the people themselves. CDEP shut the door on self-determination, and it won't come again, I certainly hope, unless in a radically different form, and tightly monitored.

So what, then ? What can governments do ? Let's finish that question: 'What can governments do if the people don't want to do anything much for themselves?' i.e. if the people don't want self-determination, but they DO want to be looked after ? i.e. if they DO want to be dependent on outsiders ? Forever ?

No. It shouldn't happen.

Perhaps the answer from any producers, workers, whoever produces the goods - is to gradually withdraw their services, to gradually expect people to either make do for themselves, like so many other people in the rest of the world, OR to move out and find work in towns, productive work, honest work

Producer Loudmouth, Joe, while sometimes prickly is no red neck, in fact he tells us he is Socialist.
Not at risk of a verbal bashing, in this area this country is Socialist.
With all the problems, mixed with the good, of such built in failure that socialist system always brings.
If we look back we get proof we have changed things.
No more stolen generations, we just call it, and it is needed, taking to children in to care.
If we this generation, wanted to, as badly as we three here seem to, change the whole thing, we could.
*If any*Socialism within our Capitalist system is to be retained, remember Labor will not be in government soon, we should re-craft it for the 21st century.
So make work, true jobs, no sit down jobs, true honest work, I remain unionist , not put down jobs.
No treatment like second class people but agreed work or no benefits.
First task?
Make sure the kids go to school and learn.
I am convinced this country can get benefits from helping any unemployed person.
A national back packers trail including camp sites could be built, and we all could use it.
Many such nation building , job creating things can be done.
New Labor should look deeply at New Socialism within our current system, in say 2021 when we win federal government next.

Hi Belly,

I guess I'm pissed off at the misuse of CDEP, of what could have been a fantastic program in communities - from the point of view of enterprises,two days free labour from each of the able-bodied people in the community for enterprises, all paid for by the taxpayer - that would have taken care of a major expense for any community.

Let's not forget that Aboriginal communities do not have to pay off the land, like most farmers are doing all their working lives.

Sine Aboriginal land usually cannot be sold, and therefore does not have a rateable value (assuming that rates are calculated on land value, as they tend to be in rural areas), Aboriginal communities are not saddled with the costs of rates.

so let's see - free labor, no repayments, no rates. If a farmer had that sort of cost structure, you couldn't keep the grin off his/her face. It's a licence to make money, to provide a constantly=growing bucket of seed-money for new enterprises.

For example, a dairy in an Aboriginal community would have had free labor, free land, no rates, and - at least in the community I was familiar with most - free water. So what costs ? Electricity, chemicals, feed (lupins, triticale, wheat, hay, etc.) insemination costs, vet costs, fencing, etc.

CDEP could have shielded such Aboriginal enterprises against the vagaries of the market, the price of milk, etc.

But Aboriginal communities ? No, they have to piss it all down the drain, betraying all of their supporters who actually believed once in self-determination.

Once bitten, twice shy, Belly :)

Community, nil. Self-determination, nil. And the only goals have all been own goals.

Joe

Come on you mob. Sit down money is not the exclusive preserve of remote settlements. Although high profile and much discussed it is a small fraction of the national problem. I would love some debate without the dark glasses.

Hi Producer,

Debate ? Feel free :)

Joe

Got it.

Your dark glasses are stuck on!

Producer, once again no!
Loudmouth/Joe has told us much about him self, and his wife, maybe you should ask?
Too about successful University educated first Australians.
I feel like a passing breeze only just noticed you, I and Joe, all think not far apart.
I know first hand about the death of that scheme, it hurt in very bad ways.
It was a great plan, but in the wrong hands looted!
A young man I knew, not unlike many others, went from pride in a job, to hanging himself.
IF an answer exists, and it just has to, it will be confronting for some.
Remember how we started this debate? who we remember Noels words?, most put our trust in?
Such men are rare, todays bitter PC driven world, on both sides, YES BOTH SIDES, needs a push.
And that push must not be just to start us, but to oversee us, at every step.
Remember this country is a two party two directions one.
And if we think the other side always gets it wrong, know whave done very little too.
And that our chance to change is nearly over, for a time.

Belly – your last post had a lot of stuff in it. You clearly have a lot of respect for Loudmouth.

My position is that “sit down money” is an issue for all Australians, not just the first Australians. To discuss it in the context of one part of our community is not balanced. I put it to you that the lack of that balanced approach divides and distorts.

I find most discussion on this forum get too specific. They tend to get personal and the context of the discussion is lost.

You talk about sides. Life is not a football game and should not be treated as such. We all have different philosophies and our representatives for better or worse should reflect that difference. Representation should be proportional, democratic and as small as possible.

We all are very similar. If we don’t have food and shelter we die. There are people from all sectors of this wealthy country that die from these causes.

There are people in this country that take so much of the wealth but make none of the wealth. We are so busy supporting their habit; they are getting away with it.

We need to stop looking at our lives, our country and indeed the world through the prism of the dollar.

I agree if everybody’s wrong, nobody’s right!

Maybe you remember this song from Buffalo Springfield in 1967.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gp5JCrSXkJY

Thank you, Belly, you do me proud :)

Producer,

So where are at in the debate ? Do we agree that welfare is necessary for anybody caught out, for a short time, between jobs, or between school or training and a job ?

Do we agree that, past a point in time, reliance on welfare starts to become a bad habit, one difficult to break ?

I would respectfully suggest, for Black and white, old and young, male and female, as long as people are able-bodied and not caring for others, that they should be assisted to find work as soon as possible after they find themselves in a position of relying on welfare.

In the old CES days, and maybe even now, employment centres used to post up detailed job descriptions - one checked out if there was a job which matched one's skill (or desperation) level, and off one went.

Nowadays, it sounds much more sophisticated. I certainly like Forrest's and Generation One's approach (see: http://generationone.org.au/),
to match a person (perhaps + short skills-training) to a job, push them through training, and then into the job. No mucking about, no pointless training programs that get people nowhere (except to allow them to put off the evil day of having to find a job).

Also: a limit on how many, or how long, somebody can enrol in endless training programs. Perhaps put an up-front fee on each course, nothing huge, just enough to 'encourage' people to get serious, say $ 100.

On a slightly different slant, thanks to the Bradley 'reforms', huge numbers of people will soon be graduating in cultural studies, art & design, and all manner of professional courses, from which they will never find work, not in those fields anyway. But they will have huge HECS debts, for many years to come.

Meanwhile, great numbers of people are needed with all manner of professional science/mining/engineering/geology expertise.

Will anybody be surprised when somebody discovers a sort of, I don't know - imbalance ?

[TBC]

[continued]

And of course, great numbers of people with Nursing skills of all sorts - and for that (as well as the mining-oriented jobs) one needs the Maths and Sciences.

How to encourage people to study for those skills that are fairly certain to be needed in the years after they finish ? (Maybe they would have to start early in their secondary schooling, especially with Maths and Sciences.) Maybe waive their HECS ?

And to discourage people from doing easy, pleasant, fun courses which get them nowhere ? Maybe double their HECS, or expect up-front payment of a proportion of it ?

And now the Labor government intends to cut university funding, just when it is presumably most needed to train vast cohorts of new and improved teachers. What's wrong with this picture ?

A lot of issues there to debate, Producer :)

Joe

Producer do you read my posts?I read yours.
From very nearly the start of this thread and about ten others, I want what you do.
Work for all, no dole, strange you may think from a unionist for life.
But that life has been my schooling.
I have been hungry and broke, a job at those times would have been gold.
I too have seen/know folk so work shy they enjoy supplementing the dole with stealing from workers.
Not in rage but in hope, I want to knock this system down and start again.
No dole a job for all, make that job no threat to existing ones.
We could do it.
At some point we must confront the need for true change in our welfare system.

Loudmouth - A lot to respond to and I wish to do so properly. It's late, it's been a long day and I am tired. I will respond in detail in the next day or so.

Hi producer,

No rush, take your time. This may prompt some suggestions against weternal 'sit-down money'"

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/veronica-hudson-sentenced-over-killing-of-edward-woody-heron-after-years-of-abuse/story-e6frg6nf-1226629941730

Now, I wonder how we can fit colonialism into that picture. Or Abbott :)

Cheers,

Joe

'Eternal' sit-down money, of course.

Noel Pearson has a great article in today's paper: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/columnists/moral-obligation-is-to-save-children-first/story-e6frg786-1226630257959

Here in Adelaide, I don't often get to read The Age or the SMH, but perhaps those journals also carry articles on Indigenous issues ? If you find any that are any good, please put up their URLs :)

I've been doing some work on the correspondence of the SA Protector of Aborigines, 1840 up to 1906, and I'm struck by how similar his priorities are to Noel's, but with a crucial difference - rations were primarily for the sick, the elderly & the infirm, for young children, for orphan children, and for nursing mothers.

Again and again, the Protector instructs the issuers (at around sixty depots across the State - so where was the 'herding onto missions' ? No sign of it in his letters, or on Mission school rolls) not to give rations to able-bodied people if there was plenty of 'natural food', game, fish, &c., or if there was employment in a district.

By the way, none of those sixty issuers ever got remunerated (except the Goolwa issuer for a short time).

As Noel points out, so often, the priorities these days favor perpetrators of domestic violence - if a man is violent, the woman and the kids have to flee to a refuge, leaving that b@stard with the whole house to himself.

How hard would it be for the police to be immediately notified if a woman and her kids needed to go to a refuge, to go around, arrest the bloke, lock HIM up, and let the woman and kids go back to the house, safe in the knowledge that their violent partner and 'father' is on, let's say, a three-month AVO, after he has finished his sentence.

Hopefully, in a sane system, he would be doing some training during his sentence, for a REAL job, once he comes out.

More to get your teeth into, Producer :)

Joe

Loudmouth, Joe I have most non Murdock papers in my favorites, and follow links even to them, from goggle.
A quick goggle sear news papers will get the links.
A current story, about the woman living in a tent murdering her partner has been linked to Noels words, as evidence things are not right.
I hold hope, truly, that as a result of our impending loss Labor will both reform, and be more welcoming to younger inventive people in the branches , hopefully targeting this disgrace.
I understand you call for self steering from these folk.
But remember just a couple of miles from our towns they live in a world far different than us.
Many have no education, not any.
Most are unaware of the idea of self management.

Thanks Belly, Granny has some interesting stories, e.g.:

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/indigenous-aussie-is-ambassador-to-denmark-20130401-2h2sp.html

and a story about SA having the highest rate of Indigenous Year 12 finishers, about 70 % of the relevant age-group, or about 500 students. That's a phenomenal improvement on fifteen years ago when barely 75 were completing Year 12 annually.

But one interesting aspect of that change: it coincided with a massive increase in the birth-rate (around 50 % in ten years): since about 2003, I have been trying to track the changes, to see if the rapid increase in Year 12 finishers was related to being born into families of working people, often intermarried working people - which in turn, perhaps at one generation removed, was likely to be associated with people moving to, and growing up in, urban environments.

i.e. due to the move to the cities in the fifties and sixties, younger people being accustomed to urban life and the influences of working people around them, moving into employment themselves when they finished school. usually around Year 10, and often marrying people in the same social circles, and thereby providing role models for their own children in turn, who are much more likely to go right through Year 12 and on to uni, twenty or twenty five years later.

In other words, a three-generation process. If people from remote communities are to follow more or less in that process, then they have three generations to look forward to, fifty years or so. I don't think there are too many short-cuts, but the longer they put it off, the longer it will all take.

[tbc]

[cnt.]

Another point: given that a young person is usually counted, and count themselves, as Indigenous, if they have one parent who is Indigenous, then inter-marriage has been one way to massively kick up the birth-rate, without having to have large families.

In the cities, on the whole, working Indigenous people make up barely 1 % of working people, so the vast majority of people they work with and associate with will be non-Indigenous.

Ergo, inter-marriage.

Ergo, increase in the birth-rate (from about 1982).

Ergo, eighteen-odd years later, increase in the Year 12 finishing rate (after 2000), and, it seems, two or three years later, rapid rise in the number of Indigenous commencers at uni, and IN STANDARD COURSES, not Indigenous-oriented courses. Degree-level commencements in standard courses have risen around 60 % since 2005-2006.

There you go, Producer, is there enough in all that to debate ?

Cheers,

Joe

Joe, Loudmouth I could put a brighter side on the rising birth rate.
It would however avoid the truth.
Driven by 6the * infamous Baby bonus*
Just as it is true in white under class/poor community, Aboriginal birthrates are rising.
So too, in both groups,is Children in Foster care rising, dramatically and in near equal numbers.
Folk sorry truth is worth supporting always, *More White than First Nation*
Are after minimal training, and questionable links to community, fostering for cash not love.
History yet to be written will hold us to account for this.

Hi Belly, thanks for your thoughtful words.

Yes, there certainly does seem to be two increasingly-distinct, Indigenous populations, or modal populations -

* one major population, rapidly growing, with working parents, usually inter-married, children with role models going on to Year 12 and university, rarely in trouble with the police, usually in reasonable health, amongst whom fostering-out of children is almost unknown, and who are not even known to social workers, a mutual situation,

and

* another population, perhaps growing - as you suggest - because of the Baby Bonus - but with few in employment, parochial and insular, poorly educated if at all, geographically segregated, into the various addictions, with relatively poor health (esp. poor diet and exercise), often in trouble with police and social workers, a high degree of fostering, utterly dependent on the state for their survival, and raising their children the same way.

One population has shown the way - find employment and the rest may follow - and the other major modal population is resisting as much as possible.

So where are the 'leaders' in all that, apart from Noel Pearson and Warren Mundine ? On the side of the workers ? or of the skivers ?

Hard to say these days.

Joe

Very well put Joe/Loudmouth seems Urban based are doing the best, we I think agree there are big differences.
Urban, Small country towns, and mission dwellers.
And that northern Australia has its own, and different problems.
No joy in telling it like it is, but near to me mission, feeding some to country town living, is in real trouble.
I see children who can not read and their parents could not either.
I think education must become a hard love must.
And that without it we are kidding our selves in looking for leaders from these places.
A self destructive theme of not having the will or confidence to find a way out must be fought by sides.

Hi Belly,

Maybe, like any population, there is a lot of self-selection and movement from rural to urban that might account for much of that differentiation, at least in the population in the 'settled' areas - that the people on the missions with get-up-and-go get up and go (and a long time ago), while those who prefer a more laid-back life, stay behind; or move only to the nearest big town; or if they have to, to the outlying suburbs of a city. And back again to 'communities' an towns. And back again o the outer suburbs.

Looking back at the history of movement from one community over the past sixty five years, it is pretty clear that the get-up-and-goers don't go back. So the potential talent in 'communities' was largely drained a long time ago, and has trickled away ever since.

The children - and grandchildren - of one population have (relatively) raced away, got into work, gone to uni, and done pretty well. The children and grandchildren of the 'other' population have tended to reproduce their parents' more casual (let's put it that way) culture, and have strikingly different education, employment and health statistics as a consequence.

People make choices, since they actually aren't sheep or puppets. And they, and their children, have to live with the consequences of those choices, some of which, with hindsight, look to be pretty stupid ones.

That's humans for you :)

Joe

Belly, you're spot-on ! : http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/indigenous/tough-love-path-to-prosperity-as-noel-pearsons-welfare-to-work-trial-boosted/story-fn9hm1pm-1226634270170

Empirical question: why do people get welfare benefits ? Because ....... And what do they have to do in return ? In these cases, send their kids to school, look for work or the most sensible training program to get into work, and get off welfare.

After all, we're talking about able-bodied people, who can lift one foot in front of the other, and their hand above shoulder-level. Is there such a thing as a loafer, a skiver, or what we used to indelicately call a bludger ? Why should they be financially supported ?

In the early days in SA, when they were building the East-West railway (as they called it then), Aboriginal people would flock down from the north, even from the Musgraves hundreds of miles away, to beg at sidings along the line. Understandable then, but maybe not these days.

Actually, all through the nineteenth century, the Protector had to strongly advise the issuers at the sixty-odd depots NOT to give out rations to able-bodied people if there was 'natural food' or game or fish in the area, or plenty of employment with farmers. And not to give all and sundry free rail passes whenever they asked for them. Plus ca change, ......

Joe

Thanks Loudmouth/Joe.
Your point is proved.
Some outsiders may think we are being a bit awful in saying such things.
Those people are the problem, not the answer.
IF as reality tells me, Labor has mucked up and is likely to be in opposition for two, maybe 4 terms,we can look at changes in many areas.
My often quoted fear *if we do not change it others will* comes in to play.
How hard would it be for Conservative government to put a harsher system in place.
And would a future ALP government change back?
Social welfare is a changing beast, if it values public opinion, no government can not re-craft this area for every one, a job rather than a hand out is no threat.

Loudmouth and Belly – you have been busy in my absence.

Loudmouth – I have made a note to myself never to debate you on statistics. I’m impressed! You mention a couple of places quite a number of posts ago that suggest we stomped around the same patch for a while. I was born at a very early age in Pt. Agutter. The Grad-parents lived next to the Brewery. I bought my first house in Tennant Bloody Creek. Have never been to Kalgoorlie but live in a little town just down the track called Cook.

Anyway “Sit Down Money” – I am a broad bush person and prefer to deal with issues by not standing to close. I believe things are basically simple and by deconstructing an issue as much as possible it becomes easier to understand.

The thing I struggle with is you still are breaking it down to a black fella issue. This is not to say that the points you make are not relevant but didn’t the whole thing start because of that division. I’m not saying we are all the same either so any solution must have the ability to work with many needs, environments, and personalities and in many locations.

The dole is flawed in that it does not insist on a return on investment. My suggestion is to replace the dole with a minimum wage that is linked to the nation’s productivity.

Although I have in previous threads, want to explain my logic to the link to productivity for the record. Wealth can only be achieved by productivity. In simple hunter gather society, if no one hunted or gathered that society would fail. Everybody could not be chiefs and witch doctors. If everyone hunted and gathered the burden and reward would be shared equally by all. If 50% hunted and gathered they would have to work twice as hard to achieve the same result or the community would have to use half as much. You see where I’m going.

Cont.

Cont.
I am suggesting every person of a working age in this country should be entitled to a minimum income linked to productivity. To get this minimum income you had to do something meaningful for a certain amount of time at a certain place. This is independent of location, colour, ability or any other factor. What is done should be to the benefit of the community and controlled by the community. Because this wage is linked to productivity it will fluctuate.

It is critical such a scheme is controlled at a community level. This is not to say there should not be an external approval system or a degree of monitoring to give direction and avoid corruption. There may be situations where mentors live in a community to assist in establishment and transition.

Producer I from a far different back ground have tried to sell the very same thought here and most of my life.
My back ground includes a life of country unionism, ending with a period as union official.
That see me concerned about some points, in yours and my wish list.
These include.
Not an under paid job, plenty work now for a wage set above hunger, but not getting rich.
The work should take no existing job, unless it is from contractors , often doing work once done by government.
A return of social value to the country.
A job that has built in time off to search for full time work/or training for new skills, it and all aspects of these jobs, to over see genuine effort and results from workers.
see, few want to know, but the sloth fullness bug gets to some and it is a reason to change the current system.
In my life I took any job, rather than let life pass me by.
And have seen work and wages change people for the good.
Our generation is only one, a time will come, if we do not change we may get to be as other country,s are, and see limits put on any help.
Australia has the ability to lead in this or any area not blindly stick to the past.

Belly – I agree with most of what you say. Union’s and unionism was a collective force to protect the vulnerable from the powerful who would exploit them. Their representatives generally came from the ranks. They smelled the people and the people smelled them. Unfortunately in many cases they have become the powerful and no longer smell the people. Like the red and blue team they have had their day in their current form. The mere fact that unions exists highlights the fact that there is something wrong with our society

We have a society that has been desensitised to conflict whether it is at work, at play, at sport or on our many entertainment formats. It is in the interest of those who wish to control and exploit that that conflict exists. This includes big business, politics and unions. As a society we need to change from them and us to “we”.

The one thing that “we” have in common is that we all have to eat and live somewhere safe to survive. There is nobody on this planet that is exempt from this rule. There are however people all over this rich country of ours that do not have enough to eat and have nowhere to live. There are those who work long hours just to survive and those who get a fortune for doing nothing. There are those that get around $400 per fortnight for doing nothing that we call dole bludgers. There are those that get $400 per hour for doing nothing that we call lawyers. Which is the bigger bludger and drain on our productive resources?

Sit down money is dispensed in many forms yet we only focus on the small end of town. There is in my opinion to much focus on the extreme situation that we as a society have caused over time by treating our first Australians and from time to time other minority groups differently to the majority of us. Looking at things in isolation is the main issue I have with Loudmouth’s and your philosophy.

Cont.

Cont.

We need to lift the small end of town and shrink the big end of town. Every individual should get their fair share of this countries productive pie, but they must participate meaningfully in their community to receive it. In the process we need to ensure that the productive elements, those who create the wealth are the ones that are rewarded the most. No sit down money.

Do you remember the “Courtesy is Contagious” campaign of yester year?

Perhaps we need a new one “Sharing is Courageous” or perhaps “Conflict is Cancerous”.

Producer while the theme is not unionism I make no claim to sainthood on its behalf.
My AWU has been in my mind the best always.
It is true, only life,s university can teach this, unions are quite different than say the day I was born.
But over all mine helped far more than many.
I used the compassion to highlight my wish for change is not from a red neck starve them to death stand point.
I truly think the scheme you and I want is best for every one.
Again I HIGHLIGHT this truth, middle Australia is likely to want just what we ask for.
Labor, the party of change can/could lead if they thought about social returns for welfare.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/coalition-to-bust-welfare-mentality-after-internal-row-over-parental-leave/story-e6frg6n6-1226636382810
I am unsurprised by this link.
In fact have forecast it.
And while my forecast was of harsh reforms, the need for reform can not be ignored.
Now while my words are as I truly think, they too may just be how most think.
My party drags its feet on welfare reform, in fact most reforms in this area are not bringing true change fast enough.
Not sentencing Labor to death, But aware it truly needs to confront issues like this.
I think we all, can forget what we think the rules are in welfare.
And that in fact while the thread searched for answers to Aboriginal sit down money, the concept of any one receiving some thing for nothing is not our future path.

Hi Producer,

Sorry, I'm still trying to understand what you mean by your core statement:

"I am suggesting every person of a working age in this country should be entitled to a minimum income linked to productivity."

To the extent that I can understand what you mean (or what I THINK you mean) I agree with you. There should be a minimum wage, yes of course, and it certainly should be more attractive than unemployment benefits (or UB plus what someone can squeeze out of their de facto or granny).

[On that subject, I'm puzzled why Study Grants aren't higher than UB: surely it's better for someone to be studying than to be relying on unemployment benefits ?]

But I digress - can I ask what you mean by "a minimum wage linked to productivity" ? Do you mean that more or less all jobs should be, directly or indirectly, linked to productivity ? Yes, I agree.

There are far, far too many sinecures in, say, Indigenous environments with no real work attached, and none really expected: liaison workers, extension workers, engagement workers, social workers of all sorts, support workers who don't seem to do anything either and don't seem to have any real interest in their core 'work', who can never tell you what they actually do, and certainly don't seem to be interested in it.

If you mean that job output should be measurable, that would be fine with me. No more phony jobs, yes indeed. o more sit-down money, and no more swanning-around money either.

Am I on the right track ?

Cheers,

Joe

Loudmouth – The basic principle that guides all my thinking is without production there is nothing, I therefore link everything back to that principle. Simplistic I know and I am open to having my mind changed but nobody has succeeded yet.

Let me try and explain with a few examples:

If we all sat down and did nothing we would not survive. We must produce food, shelter and clothing to survive

If we all were very busy doing something for example counting beans, we would not survive. It is not enough that we do something, it is critical that what we do produces something that enables us to survive.

Money only has value if it is linked to productivity. If the bean counters developed a system of money and they were paid by the amount of beans they counted, it would not work because they are not producing anything that they can purchase.

If we tease this out a bit further it can be argued that the wealth of this country is directly linked to productivity. Things like mining, agriculture and manufacturing are obvious examples.

Activities such as tourism, entertainment, advertising, law and accounting create jobs but do not produce anything within the country and therefore are non-productive activities. It can be argued that some these activities can bring wealth into the country. For example foreign tourism brings wealth to the country. If you look at the concept globally tourism is shifting productive wealth from another part of the globe, it does not create wealth. If Australia was full of local tourists all we would have is a lot of starving nomads.

I call these group parasites as they need a productive host to survive.

There are good parasites that are desirable. A healthy producer will live longer and produce more. It can therefore argued doctors, nurses and medical research are parasitic but desirable. Other desirable parasites ones that educate, uphold justice (not law) and those who protect and secure. Providing we don’t get overloaded with parasites and they are the good ones, they can contribute in a positive way

Continued –

I’m going to continue the simplicity

If all income is liked to productivity and the producers are the ones that are most rewarded it will be more desirable to become a producer. It should not however be a prerequisite. If for example an individual who wants to study music and become a musician, they could draw the minimum wage but still must participate meaningfully in their community for a certain amount of time to receive it. They can then use the rest of their time to study.

As I have said previously it is critical such a scheme is controlled at a community level. This is not to say there should not be an external approval system or a degree of monitoring to give direction and avoid corruption. There may be situations where mentors live in a community to assist in establishment and transition.

I acknowledge your concerns with the corruption and waste at the little end of town and the need for it to be controlled. I agree these jobs should be real and they should have a real and positive outcome.

I believe however there is more waste and corruption at the big end of town. Perhaps I leave that for next time if you’re interested?

Hi Producer,

Yes, I take for granted that people like Clive Palmer and Gina Rinehart are parasites, but as the Russian proverb goes, 'the fish rots from the head down.' I am distressed that corruption should infect the 'little people' as well, because when that happens, who or what is there to go into bat for ?

I worked in factories and in farm labor for around fifteen years - come to think of it, my last paying job was milking cows in a dairy, Friesians, beautiful animals, very sexy. Honest hard labor can be exhilarating, even when it is exhausting because you know you've done a decent day's work. Belly would understand.

But I disagree with your last paragraph about doctors and nurses and medical researchers - I think they most certainly add to the national product, if you want to refer to that. Teachers too, if they do their job. Social workers, maybe not since their vocation is to manage or maintain a situation, not eliminate it.

Yes, all positions should have some measurable outcome criteria attached, so that people can easily see what they have achieved from one year to the next.

I worked at Balfour's as a dough presser - you cut off and press 40-lb lumps of dough into a wooden square and throw them onto a cart, one a minute. Every so often, another half-ton of dough would come from the floor above onto your table, and you keep cutting. One winter's Friday, we all worked eight hours straight without any tea-break, absolutely flat-out for eight hours, to make the pies for the weekend football crowds. Started at 1.30 am and finished at 4.30 pm, utterly rooted. Good mates.

I think I'm gradually understanding what you mean :)

Joe

Loudmouth – I agree 100% with your statement “Honest hard labour can be exhilarating, even when it is exhausting because you know you've done a decent day's work”. It is however considered to be of lesser value, particularly by those who perform tasks of lesser or no value.

I think you have got the wrong slant on the doctor, nurse, etc. comment. Although they are parasites and would not survive without production they are good and desirable parasites because the work they do enhances production and the quality of life.

To illustrate my point here are a couple of extracts from a couple of other of my posts:

1. A complex society requires some essential none productive services (e.g. Health, Education, Security, Justice (not law)) to function. We need to question the balance and degree of these activities and the reward (proportion of productivity) a particular activity attracts. While parasite activities attract more reward than productive ones, productivity will continue to decline along with competitiveness.”

2. There are only two classes. They are the productive class and the parasite class. The productive class is self-explanatory. The parasite class is a little more complex as there are good parasites and bad parasites. For example there are probiotic bacteria and e-coli bacteria. Our community has too much e-coli! It has infested our political, legal, health, education, business sectors, just to mention a few. E-coli bacteria are self-serving and have no interest outside self-interest and the holy dollar. They will destroy the host if they are not controlled. I believe without the good fortune of mining Australia would be Greece.

I honestly believe although we should not take our eye off the small end of town, we need to have a lot more focus on the big end of town as that is where to bulk of the waste is happening. There is a lot of sit down money there. Sadly while the mug punter buys into this red/blue war they will never focus on what is really going on.

What are your views on proportional representation?

At about the time I started this thread we did not truly know just how big our problems are.
Welfare in general is very near the center of many cuts to come.
It too is front and center of contravercy.
Abbotts middle class welfare, is folly, just as my sides not truly reviewing welfare is.
I stand by my thoughts, we can and should do much better.
And in no way do I see the changes as a threat to welfare, but in my view an advancement.
I fear my words put in print now, are to come true.
Labor, not in all policy's but because of installation of a women disliked even in side the party, and not CO9NFRONTING FULLY NSW filth and HSU, is gone for multiple terms.
My often seen warning, if we do not change it others will, is about to play in real life.
And I am not prepared to say other than changes made will not be over ruled by a future New Labor government.

Belly – there are a lot of atheists walking around with values that are similar to Christians. Conversely there are a lot of so called devout Christians you would not leave your grandchildren with.

What I am trying to say is a lot of my values are the same as a lot of Labor core values yet I do not support the Labor Party. I would not trust the Labor Party to look after those values as it has become too self-serving.

I honestly believe as I have said many times before that the red/blue war is a distraction and we the majority pay.

On the other side is the blue team along with their bad ideas, have some good ideas as well that I value. But I would not trust them either.

Class is manufactured and artificial. We are all the same class with different abilities and opportunities.

I still say a hung parliament is the best option this September. It will give political parties and the population the opportunity to talk.