Once again the Live Export debacle has reared it`s ugly head!
The latest Four Corners expose of a cargo of live sheep, shunted from one middle eastern port to another, following lies and political manipulation, effectively refusing the unloading of the sheep at the original port of destination Abu Dabi, resulting in the quick fix of taking them to Pakistan to be unloaded, where more lies, deceit and inuendo of inherent disease of the shipment resulted in the now commonplace BUTCHERY of these innocent animals, by cold-blooded killers ( no other way to describe them!).

We now hear the whinings of Government representatives who deny that they had opted for the "quick fix" by off-loading the remaining shipment in Pakistan, once again appearing to be blind to the blatant abuse and cruelty to these poor animals,...ALL IN THE NAME OF MONEY!

All Live Trade shipments should be stopped immediately to ALL of these Muslim countries. If they want our meat then let them buy it frozen from us, with the knowledge that it has been slaughtered in our as humane way as possible!

At the present time there is a shipment of live Dairy Breeders on its way to Pakistan.....I hope the farmers who bred and provided these cattle for this shipment, realise just what they have condemned their stock to,....but then again money soothes many sins!

Where is the outcry by the RSPCA and Animal Libbers,...are they too scared of Government to stand up and be counted...THANK GOD FOR LYN WHITE!

Copy of an edited email sent 2 days ago.

Dear Senator Ludwig,

I assume you read “Blame aplenty in Karachi slaughter”. I assume that you would like to deal with this situation and eventually prevent this sort of thing ever happening again. Logic makes it quite clear that the only way to do this is to discourage the export of live animals. Banning the trade outright causes considerable problems. However there is a solution which will eventually work, as it has done in other countries who had the same problem, and that is to levy a tax on each animal exported live. This has several benefits and no downside at all

 Your Treasurer is in desperate need of income to fix the budget deficit.
 It opens up the possibility of a large number of new jobs in the Meat processing industry.
 It discourages live exports and encourages processing meat products in Australia
 Government, by varying the level of the tax, would have control and of course the responsibility for the whole situation
 There can be no complaints from the live animal export industry – . Labour Governments tax anyone any time.

All these are winning arguments and I have written to you before but your reply said nothing and did not engage in any effective argument. I am proposing to send a $1,000 cheque to Animals Australia who seem to be the organization doing more effective work than anyone else. I will send this cheque by the end of the year unless I receive a serious reply from you or your department outlining either your approval for this proposal or alternative suggestions that your Govt intends legislation that must stand a very good chance of being effective. The current situation cannot be allowed to continue indefinitely. You will note that I have sent a copy of this email to Animals Australia and I am sure they will follow this up either to secure the funds or even better - confirmation that you do have properly effective proposals

Yours sincerely

I see Ban Live Exports sites on facebook, and a lot of talk from them and there will be a Human Chain on the 18th of November across the Stirling Bridge, Fremantle. Dress in black and arrive at 9:45am for a 10am start.

I thought that this topic would be raised and of course its being
discussed by city people with great intentions, who don't have a clue
as to what they are discussing. The devil with all these things, is
always in the details. So I will try and remain patient and explain
it to you in more detail. I'll just start with a few key points.

Firstly, trade barriers restrict the abilities of the meat industry
to sell mutton and lamb to many parts of the world. For instance,
my tv is loaded with ads for German products, from VWs to German
kitchen appliances, but I am not free to send my lamb and mutton
to Germany. It is pointless to say, slaughter them here, if you
don't have a market to send them to.

Close the live trade and the law of unintended consequences will make
your head spin. The animal welfare issues created would cause far
more animals welfare issues than you could imagine, right here in
Australia. But it would not be on your tv screen, just like wild
dogs in Australia ripping livestock to bits is not on your tv screen,
so you don't care about it happening under your noses.

Thirdly ESCAS has indeed made a dramatic difference in how
Australian livestock land up overseas. No more Aussie sheep were
slaughtered for Eid this year, the Arabs bought them from Somalia,
Sudan etc, paying up to 500$ a head for them.

Forthly, the Pakistan incident was indeed a one off and its worrying
that such a nation also has its finger on the nuclear button. The
problems with that shipment were political. Both the Cormo and
Pakistan incidents could have been easily solved, if onboard
facilities would have humanely turned the sheep into fish food,
but even then the likes of AA would be screaming blue murder, as
they are vegans.

Let Dickybird use his thousand dollars to buy some sheep and then what? Keep them in his loungeroom or the garden perhaps?
As for more taxes what about a Green tax on all vegetarians? Use that money to buy all the little animals and give them to the vegetarians lol!
I cannot stand the smug and sanctimoneous blonde woman who is always ready to hop in front of the cameras and be adored

The whole problem arose because if you tell a moslem that he is wrong,
especially if you are an infidel, your opinion will be completely
denied and a climb down becomes impossible.
You can see this over and over in international politics.

It is best just not to do business with them.

meanwhile daily babies are slaughtered in the womb put the press are not interested. What are warped world.

*It is best just not to do business with them.*

Except Bazz, it is totally unrealistic. Fact is that agriculture
is already the most distorted form of trade that there is, due
to huge subisides paid by rich Govts like the EU, US, Japan and
all the rest.

So Australian farmers are essentially competing with the taxpayers
of these rich countries and need every market available.

Understood Yabby,
There has to be a solution that they will understand.
For example, a vet clearance at time of sailing, if and only if they
have paid for the cargo.
They will not like it, but the reason stated would be their renigging
on valid cargoes.
Alternatively, insurance against rejection could then be added to the cost.
If other suppliers are prepared to take the uninsured risk, let them.

Live export was wrong from the start, Slaughter here and send boxed meat .
Or send beef carcass meat Quartered.
Or send sheep telescoped, as was the case before live export.

Bazz, the problem with thist last shipment was not about the money.
Bahrain had been a good customer for years. It was about a change
of politics and the way business is done in the third world.
It does not work as it works with our court system etc.

So the problem is one of animal welfare, much as happened with the
Cormo, some years ago. Those sheep need to go somewhere, humanely,
and you don't have a lot of time to sort it out.

You need a plan B in place. Now millions of sheep go to places like
Kuwait and others, without a hitch and have been doing so for years.

There is a solution to that and its relatively easy to impliment.
Turn them into fish food, after shooting them humanely. Its a far
safer plan B than any others proposed, as we can see.

It would have solved both the Cormo and Pakistan issues.

Yabby,
The problemas I see it is that the copany that owned the sheep did not inform the Pakis that they had been rejected (rightly or wrongly) at the original destination. The pakis then used many made up excuses to save face. That was a comercial mistake. Hope they get paid on delivery for each consignment as their customers do not seem reliable or trustworthy.

I see the ship only took 11 days to get from WA to ME, then in future why not load a bit more feed and immediatly bring the sheep back, if rejection occurs. I know how much feed it takes to feed that many sheep, but i also can estimate the manpower and facilities required to humanely destroy that many sheep. The sheep could be put through our feed lots again and back into system.

Someone questioned the fate of the dairy breeders enroute to Pakistan. These are young breeders so are destined to be part of a dairy producing milk for their lifetime. They are very expensive and not easily obtained, so not very likely to be rejected on a whim or political reason.

I would be delighted TPP if the bridge only went half way but the march all the way.
These sheep went to another Arabic country, it lied and refused to except them,Politics?
Pakistan, a failed nation did much the same lying comes easy in such places, payback for that movie? want to bet against it?
The true LEFT, do they exist any more.
1.000 honor killings in Pakistan THIS YEAR.
Murders of wifes with machine guns.
Forced child weddings EVEN HERE FGM here!
An the left sqark about sheep?

579, there are is this little pesky problem called customers. They
make choices. If they don't want your boxed product, then they won't
buy it. No wonder you were working out the back of the meat works
rather than running the place.

Just like this year for Eid, sheep, goats, camels etc that were
sacrifised by the millions, came from Sudan, Somalia and up to 500$
a head was paid for sheep.

Earlier this year we had exactly that problem at a meatworks which
I supply. They were working 3 days a week as they had no customers
for meat, at a price where they could meet their costs yet still pay
the grower an acceptable price. Meat from NZ was being dumped on the
market, cutting them out.

Banjo, it is against our quarantine rules to bring sheep back to
Australia. These ships operate in areas of the world which have
various diseases, so any sheep loaded only go one way.

Live sheep ships already have plenty of labour onboard, so knocking
off 20'000 sheep would not take long. Its much like a conveyor
operating in meatworks on a V, sheep are shot and then fed into a
mincer, which makes instant fish food.

The issue here, when political stand offs happen is not money, but
animal welfare. Wellard did nothing wrong btw. Scabby Mouth is a
common disease and is not notifyable. The fact that Bahrain rejected
the sheep was also public information and in the press. So they were
hardly conceiling things that were already published in the press.

To their credit, Wellard have been leaders in improving animal
welfare in the live trade, unlike some other operators.

“Close the live trade and the law of unintended consequences will make
your head spin. The animal welfare issues created would cause far
more animals welfare issues than you could imagine, right here in
Australia.”

Like what Yabby? If live trade was made illegal what would happen here?

“But it would not be on your tv screen, just like wild
dogs in Australia ripping livestock to bits is not on your tv screen,
so you don't care about it happening under your noses.”

You are correct, if we don’t know something is happening it’s difficult to
care about. What freakin wild dogs, I thought they were an African
species?

“Thirdly ESCAS has indeed made a dramatic difference in how
Australian livestock land up overseas. No more Aussie sheep were
slaughtered for Eid this year, the Arabs bought them from Somalia,
Sudan etc, paying up to 500$ a head for them. “

Are your thoughts along the lines of – someone is doing it and making
money, might as well be us - ?

Hey Belly, I didn’t even know where the bridge was but Crackup was wondering where the outcry was from animal libbers and stuff and I’ve seen it all over the place on facebook. Heaps, tons.. very graphic over there. Over 55k “Likes” on the Animals Australia page so far.

Yabby Customers, If they will not take boxed meat, the export may become doomed. If they insist on live sheep, so they can murder them, the export may become doomed.
So where is the compromise.

Yabby,
I was thinking about when the sheep were rejected in Bahrain before being unloaded, but I suppose the ship just being in the port would breach our quarantine requirements. The only alternative I can see is for our customers to have their own, or approved, inspectors here to inspect before leaving, Bit like Halal inspectors at our abbittors.

G,Day TPP, good to see you posting again. Do you still have those pet ells? Your the only girl I know with pet ells. I stll cannot fathom how they get past dams, like Warragamba, on our eastern rivers.

Plenty wild dogs here. Dingos and crosses. Some areas employ full time trappers because they kill so many sheep. People have been attacked and you may recall the case of Lindy Chamberlain where a dingo took her baby from a tent.

TPP My friend please forgive, noway I was having a shot at you.
Yabby has an understanding of this issue, so do I.
We he and me, others too have suffered at the hands of animal welfare types here.
A refusal to see any side but their own and abusive tactics that left a bad taste.
What took place with these sheep, from first destination to death, may well have been aimed at securing BRIBES.
Or my early thought pay back.
No one here is other than disgusted by the primitive killings, the dirty tactics of those behind it.
But these radical vegans, they should hang their heads in shame.
Pakistan does nothing about honor killings.
Every terrified bride about to be murdered has every right to ask
*am I less than a sheep*

Good to see you too Banjo.

Gawd I am dumb, wild as in feral. I was thinking those brown spotted little things on the plains of Africa.

Dams have eel ladders for eels to climb... but I googled it and they swim around the Warragamba one because it has some streams around it. They can travel across land too. But nah I don’t have my eels, one died and the other one disappeared, or went off to sulk about it.

I have a large ever changing menagerie these days due to helping out with a wildlife rescue org. I had a baby emu for a week, I would have loved to have kept it. I’ve babysat all kinds of native birds and even a baby bat, possums, snakes and reptiles the last few months as well as the small human things.

I’m all good Belly, I can imagine animal rights peeps being pretty passionate about things now I’ve met a few more. I’m definitely guilty of getting a little unbalanced on certain issues.

*If live trade was made illegal what would happen here?*

Exactly what happened last time, when we had millions of sheep
with no home to go to. Pitts were dug, sheep were shot, market
values crashed, farmers went broke and those farmers remaining had no
money to look after those sheep remaining. Farmers with no money,
can't feed and take care of their animals, so the result is lots
of suffering.

* Are your thoughts along the lines of – someone is doing it and making
money, might as well be us - ?*

Nope, my thoughts were that we used to supply that market, when we were
exporting 6 million a year live. Now its 2 million and they
simply buy those animals elsewhere.

*I’ve seen it all over the place on facebook.*

Well that is the problem. Urban housewives, without the foggiest
clue about the industry, trying to decide agricultural policy.
AA are vegans who want us to stop eating meat altogether.They
think that we should not rip rabbit warrens, as it might hurt the
rabbits.

TPP,
Thanks for the info about the eels. I knew they could travel across land and do so when raining or wet with dew, but the Warragamba dam is located in rugged terrain. It is a big dam and the hills are very steep and rough. I thought it too big an obstacle for eels. sorry to hear about your pets. Looks like you still make life interesting for all at your place.

You said to Yabby "You are correct, if we don’t know something is happening it’s difficult to care about".

Sometimes even when people are aware of bad things they still do not care. Take FGM, for example, it horrorfies me to think what the girls go through Yet we do not insist the laws be enforced. Bad treatment of animals and everyone is jumping up and down, demanding trade be stopped.

Do the Japanese have an ABC/Greens media out let?
Does it show film of Whales dieing and the blood?
Does anyone care about the things that should not have taken place here? that bought about the killings?
And are we all aware the exporters bought this film to our attention? maybe in an effort to get that PRIMITIVE country to pay for its slaughter.
Are we forever going to be haunted by the extremes of Live Meat exports but lie to our selfs that we can just switch to meat .
And does it matter if not our animals it will be another country,s.
Yabby as offened as some will be, is not being offensive, he is telling it like it is.
A few thousand house wives who have no idea of country Australia, can turn a profitable business and destroy generations of farmers.
Tell me my references to the horrible life and deaths of women in this country are crude, but in doing so, YOU MARGINALIZE those victims to less than sheep.

Yabby,

"Nope, my thoughts are that we used to supply the market,when we were exporting 6 million a year live, Now its two million and they simply buy those animals elsewhere."

So you are saying "....[it] might as well be us."

Why do we breed so many sheep to treat them in such a way?

I mean humans are basically bastards when it comes to their arrogant control over other species. Just because we husband the existence of these animals doesn't give us the right to shut our eyes to the stresses we deliberately subject them to.

Where I live, back in the seventies and early eighties, there was a healthy industry in Halal slaughtered meat to the middle-east - why can't we go back to that?

“…Farmers with no money, can't feed and take care of their animals,
so the result is lots of suffering.”

It might come, this stop to live exports. Do the live export farmers
have a better backup plan at all in case this happens? They going to
make fish food?

“Well that is the problem. Urban housewives, without the foggiest
clue about the industry, trying to decide agricultural policy.”

Ouch. I’m glad you’re around Yabby, at least I get some understanding
from the other side

Banjo I’m thinking that cause you are male that Yabby would agree you can’t talk about FGM because you don’t have the FG’s. Lots of bad things happen, I used to get really angry that people were out saving animals and trees without first saving people. Might just start a Save Everything Club and go design my own ribbon

*So you are saying "....[it] might as well be us."
*

No Poirot, I am saying that the old claim that by banning live exports,
these markets will be forced to buy our boxed meat, is flawed.

*there was a healthy industry in Halal slaughtered meat to the middle-east - why can't we go back to that?*

Well there still is, in fact some of the live exporters have actually
bought failed meatworks now, to supply both to their customers. But
in the 80s there were more live sheep going out than is the case
today.

But you cannot force customers in how they spend their money, just
like I can't force you to shop at Coles, if you prefer Woolies or
IGA.

Fact is that some people in the ME prefer to buy their meat fresh,
as the selling of rotten meat is a common problem there, if you follow
what happens in that part of the world.

So lets look at the objective data as it stands today. The live ships
today are a massive improvement, with animals gaining weight along
the way, on a trip that takes a couple of weeks, so floating feedlots
really. The animals are being slaughtered in ESCAS approved
facilities, unlike in the past, when they were sold at the markets.
So where is your problem?

If the number of sheep involved is 2 million, what is the total price ?
I'll bet Julia Gillard gave away more than that on her present visit
to Laos and Malaysia.
The government could back up the farmers financially to call the bluff
of those governments trying it on.

Baz, sorry to tell you the ME governments, in fact the vast majority of World Governments do not care a less about you and your fellow Australians! Mate it is easy for you to say STOP! when other fellow Australians have to pay for vegan inspired decisions.
AA do not care a jot about animals! They want the power to say NO! Just remember the Australian Koala Foundation (Building next to the Ponds Institute lol)sent more people to the Copenhagen Gab fest than the State of Victoria?
See untaxed money is good money and you can do what you like, luxury travel etc. All under the guise of cuddly wuddly animals. When do we tax vegans and greens? They both make me sick and the enviroment isn't helped either.

JB, I am probably more aware than yourself of other countries lack of
interest in Australia.
Thats why I suggested that the govt fund the calling of their bluff.
Let them then buy elsewhere and see if they can get reliable supply
once they start their tacky business practices.

After all if it is the requirement of government that proper handling
of livestock is implemented then it is up to government to finance the enforcement.

Baz I am sure you regard yourself as smarter than me , in fact smarter than everyone.
What's this the government calling their bluff? Who suffers? The farmers do you dolt!
The Australian government only looks after Australia, no where else. You would stop farmers making a living and think you rule the world. When you sell something it is SOLD, it is not yours, savvy?
AA will try and ruin another Australian industry and revel in the misery they cause. Tax the greens and vegans, they are so keen on spending my money lets get them to spend theirs.

Yabby do not give in I just have to sidestep this for a while.
Not anti women, not anti poirot, she is OK but gee I grow weary.
We have been here time after time, truth, an honest look, facts say nothing.
The remoteness from bush life, the reality of making a living there.
The importance of living there and breeding and selling these sheep.
It comes down time and again to us blokes being B**stards!
Heartless stupid, lazy, all untrue but it sells.
Apart from our disgust at the way they died, being brutalized, the knife was no different than Muslims kill any beast they will later eat.
Not contemplating a sex change.
Just this simple truth as I grow older women grow better looking.
And SOME? harder to live with harder still to live without.
There is the reason men have sheds!
Mine has Seven rooms! my home is a refuge

JBower said;
Baz I am sure you regard yourself as smarter than me , in fact smarter than everyone.
What's this the government calling their bluff? Who suffers? The farmers do you dolt!

Very nice, thank you.
I think you were so eager to have a go at me, that you did not notice
I had suggested the govt cover the costs.

I apologise Baz, I do not want to have a go at anyone but who provides the Government with the money? It is us and I think they already waste enough of our money.

*not anti poirot, she is OK but gee I grow weary.*

Actually Belly, I have a soft spot for Poirot, as she is one of
the smarter women that I have met. If there were more like her,
life would be a breeze :)

The problem with the live trade is that there are a whole lot of
vegan fanatics out there, feeding complete tripe onto the likes
of Facebook and other websites. People get sucked in and donate
money and the industry has not done a particularly good job at
getting the facts out there. There is a lot of information around
in terms of research papers etc, but your common housewife is not
aware of them.

Slowly things are changing, more farmers are becoming internet savvy
and starting to defend themselves. They are also starting to realise
that working ever harder, farming more acres, will not do it for
them. They will simply get screwed and their livings destroyed by
halfbrains like the Greens and others.

Yabby So that fixes the Export Debacle does it. Blame it on the greenies or animal libers, Does that fix the debacle. There are cameras every where nothing can be hidden. Remember when a shipment of cows went wrong, someone went to see these cows and there was only a handful left most died.

Yes 579, they were breeding animals and breeding animals are shipped
around the world, from all sorts of countries to all sorts of countries. Mexico, China, Russia, Brazil and many other countries
buy breeding livestock from America, Canada, Australia, New Zealand
and others.

Fact is that you can come to me and buy breeding livestock and I can
charge you a fortune for them, but there is no guarantee that you will
look after them, even within Australia.

That is quite a separate argument from the live trade for meat, which
is where all the greenies and vegans hang out.

http://www.standard.net.au/story/691565/cheeseman-backs-phased-end-to-live-exports/?cs=72

I saw it, I posted it, I have no opinion just sharing it.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/regional/countryman/a/-/news/15319620/actions-of-bahrain-a-mystery/

Bazz, the Bahrain importer had already paid for the shipment of
sheep. What is clear is that somebody within the Govt was going
to block it, for whatever reasons.

The whole thing in Pakistan really blew up when their press got
hold of it, making all sorts of outragous and ridiculous claims,
such as that the sheep had foot and mouth and were carrying highly
infectious diseases and that Pakistan was not just a dumping ground
for sick Australian sheep, etc. I remember reading those reports
at the time and just shaking my head in amazement. If you think that
the Australian press is bad, just read the Pakistani press lol.

Anyhow, the above article should give you a bit more background
information.

Yabby While not having met poirot I share your opinion of her.
I now on this issue could be wrong, stepped down, only came back to assure her my thought was not aimed just at her.
I think men, and women think differently on many issues.
This is one, now I live a long way away from my past, here cracker cows and beef are the only animals farmed.
Apart from ostriches and all the pit street failures.
Half size banded Galloway , because they look sweet.
Crimson Camels! and scrub land infested with deer after another failed dream saw them let roam.
Retreat, not surrender, is an option when the single incedent not of our doing, out of our control is highlighted.
But FGM, Honor killings, 1.000 a year,is seen as not worth talking about.
See all in another thread.

>>http://www.standard.net.au/story/691565/cheeseman-backs-phased-end-to-live-exports/?cs=72

I saw it, I posted it, I have no opinion just sharing it.<<

Thank you for the link Poirot. I had no idea there was a bloke in parliament named 'Cheeseman'. He sounds like a superhero. I'd like to think that when parliament isn't sitting Cheese Man dons a tight fitting costume, paints his face with blue mold to conceal his identity and goes out to fight crime and right wrongs.

Cheers,

Tony

Live export has had its day.
If the exporters were fair dinkum these sheep and cattle would be monitored by sight. The sheep were to be killed so why was not someone there to supervise the slaughter.
Why weren't the sheep bought back to AU. Something could have been made from them and covered some costs.
Because of the lack of concern after the ship sets sail, i think live export to the mid east should cease.
Indonesia is now complying with proper slaughter practice.
Other countries practice brutal ideals, and not fit to handle animals.

*But FGM, Honor killings, 1.000 a year,is seen as not worth talking about.*

Well I think that people do talk about them, Belly. What is even
more worrying is that a country like Pakistan, where these things
regularly occur, also has its finger on the nuclear button!

579, judging by your comments, your ignorance shows through, for
the simple reason of you not reading what has already been discussed.

Quarantine laws stop shipments from returning to Australia. Company
employees were with the consignment, but were removed at gunpoint
by the Pakistanis. Clearly the court and legal system in Pakistan
is not worth the paper that it is written on

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/opinion/mps-should-revolt-on-behalf-of-kids/story-e6frgd0x-1226513296385

Cassandra Wilkinson
From:The Australian
November 09, 201212:00AM

"What astounds me is that once again MPs have proven willing to stand up to their more powerful colleagues on behalf of animals, with a passion and vigour few apply to improving the plight of humans."

"I look forward to a backbench revolt on behalf of children. I look forward to the "maverick" MPs prepared to sacrifice their ambitions to speak up for the littlest Australians. In the meantime, I will look forward to us getting some perspective about the issues of real substance that our parliament should address."

Yay!

Yabby, I had not realised that the shipment would be FOB.
I had presumed because of sheep dying on the way it would be delivered count.
Would Bahrain have deducted the cost from the next shipment ?

They could have taken them to Somalia and just given them to the people there.
Probably they were concerned about pirates.

*They could have taken them to Somalia and just given them to the people there.*

Well no Bazz, they could not. This is what so many people don't
understand. The trade is highly regulated. Animals can only go to
ESCAS approved facilities, for animal welfare reasons. Exporters
are responsible for their welfare, up to the point of slaughter.

If they had given them away to the people there, they would have
lost their export license immediately.

This is where we face a problem. People like AA and even the RSPCA
will not acknowledge one single point about how animal welfare has
improved over time. They see it as black and white. Yet we can
show that under ESCAS there have been massive investments in modern
slaughter facilities, both in Indonesia and the ME. 10% of cattle used
to have stun guns used before, now its 80-90% in Indonesia. That
is real progress and Asian/African animals benefit too! So we are in fact
making a difference that would not happen if Australia ceased live
exports tomorrow.

But this is the problem with this debate. It is quite complex, as
I first pointed out. To really be informed, you need to do your
homework. But your suburban housewife watches a bit of telly,
reads some stuff on Facebook, goes to the AA website where she is
encouraged to ring her local MP and is even given the number and
you have a storm of uninformed people involved, all passionate and
meaning well, but bascially being sucked in by a bunch of vegans
who would prefer all livestock farming to end.

So my point is that we need qualified and informed people to
understand this industry and pass judgement, not some green
politician who knows nothing about the industry.

Quarantine is nothing new. we quarantine all the time on AU soil.
To dump these sheep on Pakistan is dumb. Excuse my ignorance.
What happened there is not trivial as some would believe.
If the country is that lawless why bother with them.
Better to find an idea of processing these sheep here.
Excuse my ignorance.

All OK Yabby, the requirement for ESCAS reminds me of something said
on 4 Corners, about Pakistan not being approved, although it had an
application in but the approval had not yet been completed, but would be approved.
That was used to decide on sending them to Pakistan.

Well no 579, we don't bring in sheep on boats through quarantine.
It is illegal. Sheep genetics coming to Australia are brought in
as frozen embryos. So the sheep can't come back to Australia.
That is the law.

The sheep were not dumped on Pakistan. They were going to an
ESCAS approved slaughter facility. They carried no notifyable
diseases, as was later shown when they were tested at the world's
top laboratory in England.

The fact that the courts and the judical system simply don't matter
in Pakistan, only became apparent as the case unfolded. That will
have various trade and diplomatic ramifications.

Yes, more could be done. Like our Govt fight to break down trade
barriers which exist against Australian lamb and mutton in many
countries. Now that would be something useful, rather than swanning
around at the UN, spending millions to gain a temporary seat.

Fact is if the markets arn't open to accept our product, it can't
be produced here. Once again 579, without that pesky customer
willing to buy and able to buy without legal restrictions, you
don't have a business.

All the experts in the world cannot change what went on, so explain that to the people of AU.

Well yes 579, as is the first time ever that Australian livestock
have been hijacked at the point of a Govt gun. So it is
unprecedented. Thus my point that we need a better plan B, to
avoid these situations, like humanely turning the sheep into
fishfood.

But I remind you that perhaps you should clean up your own backyard
here. Just last week a hundred brumbies in the NW died, stuck in
a station water hole. Wild dogs are ripping Australian animals
to bits every day, dogs that breed on Govt land. Are you rushing
to do anything about that?

No, we'll just pick on farmers as they are an easy target, even
if we haven't the foggiest clue as to what we are talking about.
We'll watch a bit of telly and then we know everything.

What a frigging bunch of Einsteins.

When vegans sneak into foreign abattoirs with cameras and condemn live cattle exports the do-gooders and our popularity craving government escalate the damage with a ban.
Before the ban was imposed we should have considered the following:
1) The northern cattle industry is dependant on live cattle exports and Australian cattle are affordable to the importers.
2) Meat processed in Australia is too expensive for these markets because of our regulatory requirements and labour costs.
3) The importers will soon source alternative supply when Australia stops supply. Indonesia has already done this and will no longer accept Australian live cattle exports after 2014.

Animals Australia, RSCPA, animal libbers etc. should vent their ideals by euthanizing unwanted cats and dogs and avoid the issues such as feral animal control and live animal exports.

If Australians really want less live exports, then they should take
note of what meat processors like Roger Fletcher are saying. He
needs our Govt to help break down tariff barriers, so that markets
are open. He needs the Govt to allow the import of seasonal labour,
in times of peak production.

Those are the sorts of useful things that Govt can do, to create
win win situations for all, to make our meat industry able to
compete. The result would be far less live exports.

But just shutting the industry down, so that farmers can go and dig
holes to shoot their livestock, or simply let them starve up north,
is hardly wise policy making, despite the protests of our urban
housewives and uninformed green politicians

There is a difference between wild animals and sheep.
All i know is the horrible deaths these sheep went through can't be taken lightly.
To just sweep it away will not solve anything, it will be on TV again.
To keep it off TV we need real solutions, or else no more live export.
Use your Meat meal, fertilizer. The english eat mutton. It should be in the butcher shops here.
We need real solutions to the problem. Not just take another chance and see what happens.
Boxed and telescoped meat was going to Iran in the 70'S. Until live export took over.

*The english eat mutton. It should be in the butcher shops here.*

Its in Coles here, but not much, as there is not much demand. The
English joined the EU, locking out most of our meat, bar a tiny
miserable quota. So despite 400 million people living in the EU,
we are largely locked out, due to the inability of our politicians.
Yet every second TV advert is for German cars, kitchen appliances
and all the rest. Trade barriers!

Iran does not buy our live sheep.

You seem to live in your own little world of 40 years ago, 579,
forgetting that the world has changed. Its called old farts disease :)

>>Its in Coles here, but not much, as there is not much demand.<<

I've never seen it in my local. They do have weird stuff in from time to time - they had quail the other day and duck a few weeks before that - but it seems pretty random. The only sheepmeat I've ever seen is lamb. I'm hoping for capretto.

Cheers,

Tony

*they had quail the other day and duck a few weeks before that*

Tony, that is probably because you live in a suburb where alot of
people watch Masterchef, as both duck and quail were used to some
degree, during the series.

In more working class suburbs or where there are alot of pensioners,
there would be mutton. But it is pointless putting stuff on shelves
if it does not sell. My local Coles store can actually order in
things that they think that they can sell. Go to the rich suburbs
and you will find alot more of the most expensive cuts. If people
asked for mutton, they would stock it. The wholesale price of mutton
is less than 2$ a kg, or at least that is what the farmer is paid,
compared to 3.50 for lamb right now.

If mutton was freely available it would gain popularity as people found out what to do with it.
I would not bye lamb from one year to the next. After it's cooked there's nothing left.
Besides that lamb at $35 / kg for loin chops is stupid.

579: You must try to realise that obviously the majority
of respondents to this discussion are motivated by one
single thought,....making money....the be all and end all
of logical thought processes!

The obvious cruelty to animals is of insignificant importance
to these soothsayers of monetary worship. They seem to be
oblivious to the fact that much of this outright cruelty is
avoidable, by the implementation of certain laid-down
guidelines, but for the same old reasons they choose to
move the onus of care and responsibility away from the
recipients of the end product, and continually put the blame
back on the animal rights protection groups, who themselves have
nothing to gain from these situations, except the peace of mind
of knowing that something is being done to alleviate unnecessary suffering at the hands of a bunch of crazy knife-wielding religous zealots.

I reiterate, ...if these animals and all other animals that are
shipped from our shores cannot be handled humanely, then STOP
selling them to these maniacs who seem to derive pleasure out of
the butchering or beheading of lifeforms other than their own!

Now all you naysayers can embark on a process of retaliation
against myself and other supporters of animal rights, if it
makes you feel any better in your support of profit over
cruelty, but remember this,.. the same people who are committing
these acts of savagery, may be one day, in the not too distant
future, be excercising the same brutality upon you or your families!

*myself and other supporters of animal rights*

Crackup, the problem is that some of you behave just like religious
and other zealots, all emotion and no reason. Life is about balance.

So do we ban horse racing, rodeos, family pets, eating meat,
ripping rabbit warrens etc, because you are defending the rights
of rabbits in the burrows for instance? Many of your supporters
want to ban all these things.

I see alot of cruelty and its not normally on professional farms,
but commonly on hobby farms, where the owners are absent for periods
of time and commonly don't have a clue as to what they are doing.

Sheep riddled with lice and worms, animals on poor nutrition as
the owners don't understand how a rumen functions, alpacas with
years of wool on them as the owners don't know how to get it off,
etc. The professional farmers who don't enjoy running livestock, have
long ago switched to 100% crops. Those remaining would soon go broke,
if their animals were not doing well.

Of course farmers have to make a profit, just like you need to
be paid wages. Everyone has bills to pay.

The problem with you zealots is that its all black and white, there
is no balance. You never show the healthy sheep coming off a boat.
You never show that animals going down a meat chain, where treatment
is perfectly acceptable. You don't show the chilled water troughs
in the ME feedlots. Just about every one of you who go on to annoy
farmers on the farming websites, is in fact a vegie or a vegan.

That is another debate entirely, a flawed philosophy IMHO and has
nothing to do with animal welfare, but is about animal liberation.

579, you should change where you shop. Loin chops are half of what
you quote, where I go shopping, at Coles or Woolies. Don't blame
the industry, if your butcher is screwing you. Change butchers.

Tony,
I managed a property for a butcher for 25 years and he sold no mutton at all, simply because there is no demand. I had mutton as a kid but not for 50 years now. Our tastes have changed and no butcher will stock product he cannot sell.

You would be extremely lucky to even find a butcher nowadays that sells hogget (animal about 12 mts old)

In my opinion, hogget has more taste than lamb, but for tenderness you cannot beat roast lamb, with gravey and baked veges, yum.

Yabbys right, if farmers cannot sell the old sheep that have reached the end of their wool producing life, then the whole wool industry will fail. The only ones to suffer from this is us. The one who presently buy our old sheep will buy them elsewhere.

I find it difficult to understand how people can jump up and down about the horrible way the sheep were treated, or cockfights, but say and do nothing about 5-6 year old girls here, in Aus, getting pieces cut off their genetials, without any anaesethic. Now that really makes me reel in horror.

The murder of those sheep, can not be swept under a bag. So who is accountable, the exporter or the farmer.
Because some countries take delight in brutality is a situation that can not be tolerated.
The situation has not come up with a solution, and to just carry on as normal is not on.

579, the Pakistani Govt is accountable and that is why Gillard
has asked their PM to launch an inquiry. We shall see what that
reveals. Cruelty to animals is in fact against the laws of Islam.

The industry has taken a stand, no slaughter animals to go to
Pakistan or Bahrain.

I've given you the solution, next time turn the sheep into fish
food, even though our vegans will protest loudly at that, for
no good reason. They protest about everything, short of taking
every animal home for a cuddle. If only life were that simple.

Of course the Pakis are to blame for the way they slaughtered the sheep. To put the blame on farmers here is completely out of context.

If someone sells a house which is then used for an illegal purpose is the house seller to blame for that. If a car dealer sells a vehicle that then has a hit and run accident, is the car dealer to blame?

It is most unfortunate that in this case the exporters plan A and then plan B both failed and it looks like both failed for political reasons.

*but say and do nothing about 5-6 year old girls here*

Banjo, I don't think that the two need to be mutally exclusive. I
think we can care about both. I know that just recently some people
in WA were taken to court over this, after having flown OS to get
the operation done and then came back here.

What pisses me off right now is the absolute fantasy claims being
made by the animal rights brigade, over and over, which are pure
rubbish.

No the industry never cost 40'000 jobs. Fact is the industry
automated. Today you have auto skin pullers, robots and all the rest,
working in meat plants.

No, Australia would not be better off, if animals were slaughtered
here. Otherwise they could buy them and do just that. But first they
need a buyer. Once again we have tariff barriers all over the place.

No, the sheep don't all suffer on the boats. Today we have a number of
purpose built ships, with very good conditions. Animals would not
be gaining weight, if they were stressed.

Yes, some deaths will occur onboard, as they do in the paddocks or
the feedlots. 1-2% is quite acceptable, as it is in the paddocks and
the feedlots. Ruminants develop all sorts of problems. Anyone who
has run livestock knows that. Qualified livestock vets will tell you
that. But it just won't sink in with our animal liberation people.

Look at the changes now happening in Indonesia. We have gone from
10% stunning to 90% stunning. Sorry, but that is real progress.

I hear this rubbish again and again. People see a truck with a
couple of legs sticking out and the animals must be suffering. Well
I can tell you if I put a few lambs on a truck, too loose and they
will fall over. But even then, some will stick their legs out, not
much different to kids doing the same out of the school bus

Process meat here. Or bury it here. Savages can not be trusted.

In that case 579, we'd better not trust you with having kids, a
partner or a dog, in case you are a savage. We'd better take your
license off you too, in case you drink and drive and kill people.

Yabby we are talking about a serious situation. I am not an animal liber.
I want to see our sheep treated properly.
So it's best to have a plan ready.
To make meat meal out of them they have to be skun. There is probably an export for that. Specially if mixed with blood meal, to raise the protean level. Sheep tallow could be made into diesel fuel, or in place of coal.
I reckon a market could be found for mutton legs, somewhere. If i knew where to get mutton i would bye it.

*we are talking about a serious situation*

So are child abuse, spouse abuse, pet abuse and victims of drink.

If you have the answers, there is a thing called a market. You are
free to show us all how its done. Buy the sheep and demonstrate
your brilliant ideas.

The Greens have just come up with their brilliant 5 point plan.
So let them go ahead and demonstrate it, make it happen. But
city slickers have a record of being so bad at value adding
agricultural products, that IMHO they will be useless and fail.

So the live trade is an insurance policy for farmers and there is
no good reason to ban it, if you can't come up with an alternative
that actually works and is not just dreaming.

Your comment that you'd rather see sheep buried, reflects your
real disdain for farmers and their livelyhoods. I guess you won't
be going into the outback to shoot those cattle who die miserable
deaths due to no water and food, which would happen if the live trade
shut.

579 it has already been explained to you! They are not your sheep! they are not your sheep they are owned by the person who BOUGHT them. Again when you sell a house or a car you SELL it! it is not yours, it has new ownership, THEY ARE NOT YOURS!
Of course the animal welfare issue is different but Australia does not rule the world and Animals Australia can go to Pakistan and protest if they want, I wish they would, I really wish they would!
Alternatively Animals Australia can go and buy all the sheep and cattle and then....... then what, perhaps they can tell us?

Sounds to me you are not about to talk alternative methods of dealing with your old stock. Who owns the sheep does not come into it.
The sheep are a living body, that is where the difference is.
If they can not be trusted to have a proper slaughter, the future may not be ideal.

Well 579, we have an alternate method. We are farmers, we produce
food, we don't come to your house to cook it for you.

If Australian companies are unwilling or unable to buy livestock
and process them, the alternate is to put them on a boat where
they gain weight, a floating feedlot. They are then slaughtered
through the ESCAS system, which is working well. They go to
various markets, including Kuwait, which has rejected no shipments.

But because there was a problem in Pakistan, you now think we should
close down the trade to Kuwait. That all sounds a bit racist to me,
you seem to think all brown skinned people should now not be trusted.

I just wonder how you would take it, if some country would not deal
with us, because we are neighbours with New Zealand.