This morning I crawled out of bed, shaking with terror.
This was the day we've been warned about every hour, more or less on the hour, by Tony Abbott; the day when Whyalla would become a ghost town, the guts would be torn from Australian industry, ordinary Australians would be sent broke, jobs would flee across the water as fasts as their little legs would carry them.
With shaking hand, I drew back a corner of the curtain and peeped out the window.
Sky still where it should be? Check.
Birds still singing? Check.
I opened Google Earth. Whyalla still there? Check.
Whew!! It seemed as though nothing had changed.
After a relaxing breakfast, (I had feared that yesterday's might be my last, so dire have been the Opposition's predictions), I checked my mail from Friday.
And there was a letter from my energy supplier telling me about projects they are implementing to reduce their carbon footprint ahead of the Carbon Tax.
So, it seems that, after all, something has changed.
Just not what Abbott and his fellow end-of-the-word-as-we-know-iters expected.
The Carbon Tax has begun to have its intended affect already.
Otherwise, today looks pretty much like yesterday.
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

And you'll wonder why so many of us will enjoy seeing you balling into your lentils, after the next election.

That will be fair after many of my neighbours will be eating beans rather than beef as our announced electricity price rises bite.

Oh, no, anything but lentils. Won't I at least be able to have a Macas?
Anthony
Http//:www.observationpoint.com.au

Anthonyve,
You don't really expect anything the ALP does either negative or totally senseless to have an impact in 12 or 14 hours ? Don't be so stupid, wait till next month.

Horror on horror Anthony, the Mackas may cost ten cents more, with built in rip off.
We can enjoy the uninformed rants however.

Give it a month or two, Belly, and you'll be paying a dollar more :)

Anthony,
This is a fascinating way to argue - take someone else's argument way beyond absurdum, take their relatively long-term predictions to idiotic extremes and slag them accordingly. Abbott et al. surely meant that Whyalla - if it is going to wither away at all - would take much longer than a minute, or a day, to do so, a sort of death by a thousand cuts, in labour cuts, in local income cuts, local revenue cuts, local property value cuts, etc.

But that way of arguing is intriguing - attribute to your opponent some dumb-@rse assertion, rubbish it, and thereby prove both how brilliant you are and how moronic your opponent is. And in the process, prove nothing.

If he had nothing better to do, Pericles would have a Latin phrase for it - perhaps 'reductio ultra absurdum' ?

Wait and see.

Do I detect evidence of a humour bypass among one or two respondents?
Of course its stupid and absurd, loudmouth and Individual, it's a piss take.
Guys, lighten up. Did the hyperbolic title not give you a clue?
As one might expect, Belly and Hasbeen got the joke.
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

ALP mindlessness has startet in earnest, supporters included.

Anthonyve,
I agree and don't expect the sky to fall in. Though I'm not expecting the carbon tax to have any appreciable effect either. It's always seemed to me that best way to cut carbon emissions is to cut consumption. In fact it's the only way. But of course that would have a negative effect on the economy (hallowed be thy name) and so the government has to come up with a magic pudding by which carbon emissions can be cut while the economy grows--marvelous (why is OLO saying this is a spelling mistake?) what they can do these days. We can lose weight "and" maintain (neigh increase!) consumption! Consumption is good, it solves all ills so long as it's taxed appropriately. In fact we should tax lacklustre consumption!
Consumption is next to godliness!
But a word to the wise: maybe keep a weather-eye on where the revenues going...

Of course this all depends on the government keeping it's promises and if prices do rise they're not going to magically go back down if the coalition does axe the tax.
There is also the possiblity that the coalition will keep the carbon tax or the trading scheme once their money loving benefactors start making serious dollars out of it.
I'm personally in favour of a transition to renewable energy but are we going to see these so called "coal Barons" making billions off Carbon Trading as well as profiting from the ever expanding demand for fossil fuels thus making a killing off both ends? The effect on the little guy is going to depend on what sort of policies and character of political personnel develop from this new regime.

This mornings stroll through the jungle that has become this country's print media is well worth while.
Hidden in the fact Abbott's negativity, and Gillards inability's, she has many, Labor is near nearing death this truth.
300 Australian businesses have come out in favor of the carbon tax.
Saying it will do what it is meant to.
Drive change to a cleaner future.
I predict too it will remove Gillard, she could not sell free food to starving people.
And that Abbott, intent on the same reduction targets,but without compensation,will too fall at the hurdle he built.
One day, it may take a decade, we will be stunned by the knowledge of who the faceless men backing this foolish man are.

@ Anthonyv & fellow believers,

This is where we find if the warmist's are for real or just a load of *hot air*:

When Anthonyv says:
“ Won't I at least be able to have a Macas?”

It’s akin to an orthodox Jew saying “ Won't I at least be able to have a pork sandwich?”

Because according to AGW theology--see below:

“The FAO report found that current production levels of meat contribute between 14 and 22 percent of the 36 billion tons of 'CO2-equivalent' greenhouse gases the world produces every year. It turns out that producing half a pound of hamburger for someone's lunch a patty of meat the size of two decks of cards releases as much greenhouse gas into the atmosphere as driving a 3,000-pound car nearly 10 miles.”
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=the-greenhouse-hamburger

So no Anthonyv –if you were fair dinkum – you should NOT have that Macas --stick with the lentils or tofu!

SPQR et al,
The word for the day is 'middle ground'.
Can we all say 'middle ground', boys and girls?
Anthony
http://wwwobservationpoint.com.au

Oops! Better make that Phrase for the day.
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

@Anthonyv

Leading *with our chin* by imposing the worlds highest carbon tax (starting at 23/t with an aspiration to grow to 37/t) is hardly taking the middle ground.

Ho Hum !

If it is going to have near zero effect, why are we bothering ?

Interesting and reasonable question, Bazz.
There are two answers.
First, it is becoming increasingly obvious that getting the world to commit to a united plan is proving fruitless. Sadly, there are too many Tony Abbott's in the world.
So, either we collectively do nothing and the world is irreparably harmed, or, one by one, each country comes to its senses and acts.
Some 40+ countries are ahead of us on that score. Even America where Republicans have poisoned the argument, is ahead of Australia in taking action.
China, although still and will remain a massive polluter, is doing far, far more than is Australia, even after our Carbon Tax.
So that's the first reason. It matters, because we become one more country taking essential action to save the planet.
The second reason is to do with symbolism. Australia is the world's highest per capita polluter. So the world is watching to see if we act.
Now you could say that symbolism doesn't matter, but ask yourself this. How would you feel is I publicly urinated on the Australian flag?
You might well be offended. I know I would if someone else did it.Yet it's only a piece of dyed cloth.
And why might we feel offended?
The answer is because the flag symbolizes something important.
So, you see, symbolism does matter.
And that's the second reason why the carbon tax matters.
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

Hmmm I see Anthony, symbolism, hmmm.
Well until the IPCC reruns its computer models using the Upsalla
realistic data for the amount of available fossil fuels, I will
continue to harbour my doubts about the whole exercise.

It is a classic GIGO event.

Belly,
I hear that some Labor pollies are saying they should do more to make the greens share the blame for the carbon tax and be criticised for not agreeing to the Malaysian scheme on boat people.

Any word yet from your contacts about this?

@Anthonyv,

<<The second reason is to do with symbolism. Australia is the world's highest per capita polluter. So the world is watching to see if we act.>>

Don’t make me laugh Anthonyv.

Australia signed the Refugee Convention in 1954 …we are STILL WAITING on the Malaysia & Indonesia to follow our “good” example!

If the same pattern applies with the CO2 treaties/taxes we will – by your reckoning – all be six metres under water by the time they follow our lead.

Anthonyve seems typical of those who could not care less about pensioners sitting in cold houses to frightened to turn the heater on because they can't afford to heat their houses. I know a number of uni students who also put up with being cold in winter and hot in summer. This has now been made worse by a fraudulent tax and a fraudulent Government.

Runner, AnthonyVe,

As one frog said to the other, "It's quite cosy in here, I don't know what you're worried about."

It's easy being Green :)

Cheers,

Joe

Runner, that's absolute crap and you know it.
The additional support for pensioners is actually more than any additional cost.
If any pensioners fear to use their heaters its because of the willful lies that you and your cohorts spread.
If you want to peddle that garbage go ahead, but it remains a lie. And you sir, are a liar for asserting it.
Shame on you.
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

Anthony, your point is well made but what happens after next year ?
Does this compensation go on forever ?
Or is it supposed to last forever ?
If they were honest they would say,
"Look we all have to live with this burden so we will all have to adapt"

The compensation is nothing more than a vote saver, so please be honest
and admit that is what you believe also.

You're right, Bazz,I do accept that's part of it. I doubt if there's anything our politicians do that isn't in some way driven by vote buying, and I certainly wouldn't claim this whole thing as an exception.
But, there is a dilemma here and I guess it goes to the heart of our various philosophies.
Should the cost of playing our part in saving the planet be spread equally across every Australian, regardless of his or her ability to pay? Or should the cost be apportioned in some other way?
I guess those who lean to Starboard would say that every one should pay equally, while those who lean to Port would say that maybe we could find a way of apportioning cost in a way that causes the least amount of discomfort to the most people.
As Labor clearly leans to Port, I think there is - to some degree - a genuine attempt here to make the whole process somewhat less painful for those on our community who can least afford it.
But one thing I will add - if it's an attempt at vote buying then so far - judging by today's poll figures - I have to say it's been a spectacular failure.
But then,(he says with a sigh), I would also have to admit that it wouldn't be Labor's only spectacular failure of late.
These are not days when it's exactly easy subscribing to a belief in social justice, as it's getting rather a pig's breakfast made of it.
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

Well Anthony I can see your frustration is in place.
However I am frustrated because the whole AGW thing is distorted by
what appears to be the refusal of the IPCC to rerun their computer
models against the Upsalla Unis Global Energy Groups data on realistic
available fossil fuel data.

That group has shown that the real track is significantly below the
IPCC's lowest temperature track.
So until the IPCC can demonstrate its honesty I am very skeptical.

In anycase we are all worrying about the wrong problem, which is the
now presence of peak crude oil and the end of growth.
That will reduce CO2 much faster than any fiddling with taxes.

lentils are delicious.
(especially with beef):)!

I agree Bazz, Peak Oil has been and gone, I think.
I mentioned somewhere else on OLO recently about a friend of mine who is in the oil drill bit business and he was telling me how incredibly complicated bits are now because they have to get into such ridiculously difficult places to find any oil.
The company I have with my son is doing the sales teams training throughout Australia for the new GM Volt, and GM seem extremely confident that the car is going to be a game changer.
Maybe they know something...
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

Hi Leg,

Yeah, just throw them in with the frog, they'll cook soon enough ......

Lentils are good with anything.
Well maybe not long necked white cranes, but that is another story.
Banjo I am from the group calling for the hob nail boot approach to greens.
It will happen but may be too late.
Right now on issues like boat people we let them boot us.
They grow on us not the other way around the truly lost,within my party fear driving more from us to them, but do just that by bending to them.
CARBON TAX moving to price is not an issue, we all will soon enough get evidence man contributes to the problem.
Bazz clean energy is a promise not a threat, post peak oil it will help save us.
In fact * if big power big capital did not have such an investment in oil, coal, and petroleum we would not see the denialists funded*

Anthony , interesting.
I had an order in for the Nissan Leaf but they came up with a price
of $51,500 so I canceled.
That price is $20,000 dearer than the US price.
I expected that the Aussie ripoff would be there, but that was ridiculous.
I will be interested to see how much dearer the Volt will be here.
It was advertised on the TV last night.
The Leaf outsold the Volt by about 50% in the US last time I looked.

The Leaf would have suited my usage ideally but not at that price.
My present car is 13 years old and still going OK, but has a number
niggling things that need fixing.

The Ford Focus Electric is supposed to be out this year also.

Belly, yes clean energy, whatever that maybe is a promise but is not
very promising. It is the energy density of petrol & diesel that is
so hard to beat. The ERoEI of all the biofuels are so poor that it is
unlikely that they will ever replace oil.
We just won't be able to afford them.

It is quite possible that we may have to either have electric vehicles
or no vehicles.
Everything they do now to get oil is more and more expensive.
As the old fields deplete, the mix of old and new will be too expensive.

Bazz, I followed up what you said recently on fuel-cell driven transport and you are right, it's s no-goer. Given that the electrical grid is already in place to distribute energy to electric cars (rather than having to develop a hydrogen distribution system for fuel cell transport), it strikes me there may well need to be an upgrading of it to cope with future need. Also, I'd like to see the entire grid owned by government so small scale alternative energy producers can feed into it to get our transformation from a fossil-fuel driven society up and going. The multiplicity of ownership, cross-subsidization and bureacracy must be cut through as fast as is possible.

Anthonyve

you a are in total denial and your abusive tone illustates how heartless and interested in the truth you are on the issues. Labour is as hypocritical as the Greens crying over Assylm seekers. The numbers of people not being able to pay their utility bills have already increased dramatically without the lying tax. THis will only get worse as anyone who can add knows. The compensatiuon is not sustainable and is simply a con to hide the true impact.THe only liars in this are the deniers.

Luciferase, the "Smart Grid" as is now being promoted is under fast
development. Part of the aim is to cater for large numbers of electric
cars being charged at night.
One suggestion I have seen is for chargers being addressable by the
grid so if the load gets too much they can share the charge time around.
Certainly they are aiming to get cars charged in off peak periods which
if there were large numbers of electric cars, there may no longer be
an off peak period.

That an alternative generation system is needed is beyond dispute but
so far the only realistic alternative is nuclear.
All the alternatives need a full scale backup or a storage system.
Storage however seems to be a much harder project than alternative energy.

So far the only hope is nuclear, hot rocks, or cold fusion.

Bazz,
Have you looked at a company called A Better Place. They're starting with a trial distribution network for electric cars with changeover batteries in Canberra later this year. i believe that Renault are developing a car in partnership.
The company was set up by an Israeli IT specialist and the software to control charing/network demand is quite interesting.
They seem to have thought through many of the usual problems cited with EPVs.
Here's the website. http://www.betterplace.com.au/
What do you think?
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

There was a doco on TV about better place a few days ago.
Quite a good system.
There could be a problem with their leasing charge for the battery.
It was reported to be E75 a month in Ireland.
You buy the car without battery.
That is more than I spend in petrol every month.
I presume when you swap a battery there is an additional charge on that.
It will be interesting to see how it goes.
The Reno is the Fluense. The Better Place web site has a photo of it.
So far it seems that Renault is the only one to have better Place exchange.

The issue with "green" technology is that it is still ineffective. For example these electric cars are responsible for far more emissions than conventional cars, because the emissions required generating the electrical power is far higher than the equivalent petrol required. This is also before the environmental impact of the batteries is considered.

The carbon tax on electricity but not on fuel effectively penalizes these environmental idiocies further. Until low cost power is generated with no emissions (nuclear) these cars are for green air heads that like to be seen to be environmentally conscious but are actually quite the opposite.

Sorry Shadow Minister, that is not so.
There have been a number of studies on this very point and even the
worse case is that mine to wheels emits less than well to wheels.
The worse case from memory was only a small amount better but a lot
depends on the quality of the coal.

However co2 emissions are not really the point.
The objective is to use less oil.

"I'm personally in favour of a transition to renewable energy".
There is nothing renewable about renewable energy - it's an oxymoron.
It takes 50 times the energy to produce a solar cell than you will ever get back in it's life time. Similar analogy for wind and wave and any other method of power generation. The only really cost efficent energy source is nuclear which outstrips coal and oil by 1500 times. There is a huge gap between 'renewable' and 'cost efficent' as they are on opposite sides of the equation. While nuclear is not renewable, it leaves other 'non-renewable' sources for dead.

Bazz,

The only comparisons I have seen that give that result come from the producers of these electric cars and use typical automobiles rather than higher efficiency petrol/ diesel cars available to day. And use European / US emissions where there is a large proportion of gas / nuclear.

High efficiency diesel engines get greater than 30% thermal efficiency, whilst black coal / brown coal gets 35% and 20% respectively, and electric cars get about 60% efficiency from the wires. Given a 5% transmission losses, you would need an extremely inefficient delivery system for fuel for your numbers to stack up.

In Norway where power comes mostly from hydro electric, these cars emit less, but in Australia they are for the intellectually effete.

Hmmm, well I will look up the reports again and send the links.
As far as I have been able to ascertain the wires to wheels of electric
cars is closer to 80% for modern traction motors.
Battery loss seems to be about 10%.

Also there may be better results with AC motors that are used in
variable speed drives. I am told that AC motors are used in most modern
electric cars, although I have not been able to confirm that.
What did impress me was the small heat sinks used.
That gives its own message.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/variable-frequency-drives-d_656.html
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/electrical-motor-efficiency-d_655.html

Electric drive and motor efficiency is best at design capacity due to certain "overhead losses" and is 98% for drives and 93% for large motors and drives. However, for smaller systems at fractional loads the efficiency drops considerably, so at say 30% design capacity, the efficiency is probably closer to 80-85% and 95% respectively.

The losses in batteries are greatest when charging, and for the lead acid charging / release cycle is below 70%. Other technologies may be better.

Had to return much to grin about here.
We will off course get other fuels and energy sources thanks in part to carbon tax.
But runner! your insulting post to Anthony has me in stitches.
Like your work, reminds me just how wrong some are.

Our freight has gone up 2.5% and my smoko has gone up a Dollar. The grocery store has become super expensive. No prices surveillance where I live. Most expensive air fares in the country per flight mile. $4.88 per nautical mile or 1.8 km.
I'm sure most of the costs are permits & taxes to the Government.

I watched Bloomberg last night and an old American oil baron came on,
thrilled at the prospect of cheap gas powering a potential 8 million
trucks and making the American economy highly competitive.

What a refreshing change, compared to our present Govt here, who
wants to tax business into oblivion, in order to stay in bed with
the greens.

One day Australia, you will fall on your arse and when you do,
you will deserve it.

Yabby,
When you say, "you" when you refer to Australia in the collective sense, does that mean that you are not, yourself, an Australian?
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

Nah Anthony, I simply regard myself as one of the few Australians who
has some common sense, as most of you don't. Keep dreaming.

I've now heard an add from GM Holden for their soon to arrive Volt electric car. I wonder who bashed Holden into bringing some of them in to Oz.

We all know it was Obama who forced GM to make them, & they are a financial & marketing disaster. Funny isn't it that anything Obama touches proves to be a financial disaster, just like our Julia. Could it be something to do with their politics. After all none of them have ever run anything but an election campaign, so no savvy anywhere.

Could it be G M head office forcing Holden to take some, to spread the catastrophe, or could little Julia be getting something back for the support they have given.

I suppose that, just like those dreadful Hybrid Camrys the lefties forced Toyota to make, the government [us of course] will end up buying the damn things. More of our money wasted to try to prove "Green is Good".

Anthony sorry to divert your thread.
But felt the need to talk to you.
In a strange way your threads title is descriptive in more ways than one.
I fear for us all.
We never know just who is reading and from what country.
Some may well think we are the Australian version of the Beverly hill Billy's.
The tax has unleashed Gillard a lady who could not give ice water away in the Sahara, and Abbott his lips are moving what more can I say?
Now green cars become a target?
If it was not so funny and sad too I may cry.
Great words come back,you can fool some of the people some of the time.
Just now? most of the people but not forever hold these folk to account if I am not around will you?.
Unspeakable terror? yes deniers are that.

I had a green car once. Morgan +4, in British Racing green. The styling was so out of date that some people who saw it new accused me of doing a beautiful restoration job. I guess I was all ready in practice to be a hasbeen at 22.

It did 124.6MPH down conrod straight.

A real car, not one of these fool hybrid things designed to meet a California law that never happened. Still Toyota got most of their research & development costs back, by selling them to green fools, who can't do arithmetic.

I've got a Triumph TR7 in my fleet today. Like the Hybrid, they were designed, along with a number of other cars, to meet another fool US law that never was implemented. Instead of crumple zones it has an extremely strong bumper bar. Much better idea anyway. US manufacturers couldn't meet the requirements, so they dropped it.

If only we could stop these fool activists, with half baked ideas, causing so much of the stupidity in our law makers, to come to the surface, we'd all be much better off.

Dear Hasbeen,

Why not have an intelligence test before
allowing people to vote? ;-)

Lexi my dear, I think you're going too far at that, there would be just you & me voting. But change that to an intelligence before anyone was allowed to stand for any sort of office & I think you're on a winner.

Well Hasbeen, I would not buy a Hybrid as most of the smaller European
diesels get better milage.
I met a guy who had a Prius and he had fitted an extra battery to it.
On his normal commute trip he was getting 1000km per litre.
That I think was worthwhile.

I will get around to chasing up those reports.
I am not interested in CO2 emissions, only fuel consumption.

My interest in the Leaf was because of the very good reports in the US
and its range was ideal for me, but I will not fall sucker to the Great Aussie Ripoff.

Dear Hasbeen,

I think you're onto something with that idea.
However, we'd have to make do with
reduced numbers in Parliament. Which would be
not only a big saving - but it would up the
ante in terms of quality. Brilliant!

Bazz I don't know where you've read good reports on the thing, in motoring circles in the US it's a joke.

Obama's folly is one name they are calling it.

Hugely expensive, & with terrible depreciation, there have been a couple of fires of vehicles just sitting, & rumors of more not reported. The safety of the battery packs is now in question.

Sales are running at about 15% of projected volumes, & the production of the things has been shut down for 2 months to stop the building stock pile of unsold cars.

If you really want an electric car, build your own. The things are so expensive, & depreciation is so bad, only government or fools can afford the factory ones. Even the best of them will cost $4500 to $5500 a year, sitting in the garage.

An electrical engineer near here built one on a Datsun ute. Put an electric motor in the engine bay, & filled the tray with led acid batteries. Even with a paint job it cost only $6000 to build, & has run for some years now, with just a change of batteries. Best of all, no depreciation.

I have run a 32 year old sports car for 12 years now. Cost about $7500 to buy & rebuild. It is worth more now, so no depreciation, & modern enough to give little maintenance problems.

When ever there is an argument about cars around here I point out that her Mazda costs us about $3200 a year in depreciation, but my old sports car earns us about $320 a year in appreciation. It's so peaceful when you're getting the silent treatment.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/big-polluters-convinced-carbon-price-is-here-to-stay-20120704-21hix.html
Here is a link not from Labor.
But from the industry that is taxed.
In it you can not avoid the truth.
It is extraordinary, almost unbelievable.
That so very many have bought the negativity of not just Australia's puppet to Republicans.
But the bought, paid for, no less than propaganda of the extremely rich and powerful.
The link says Abbott[his replacement] will remove the tax, but within just a few years- it will be put in place again.
I strongly think that prediction, by 2020,will be by an ALP government.
Such will be the fall of Republicanism in its own country.
And the Abbott Ponzie schemes death here, as promises made vs promises kept weights down the hearts and minds of Australians.
We should look back on these days as what they are.
Fraudulent pea and thimble side show politics.

Belly the worst lie you ever tell is the one you tell yourself.

Yes I know that Labor in government has recently been a disaster, & the voters have forgiven & forgotten in about 10 years. This time the results have been worse. The memory will last longer, & there is no pool of young new factory workers & labourers from whom to recruit new voters.

I think you & those like you are going to have to work much harder than last time to rehabilitate your party.

Good luck with it, I hope you succeed. We do need a good Labor party, probably more than ever in todays world.

Both Belly's and Hasbeen's points are very well made.
There's no doubt that the Coalition has moved to the Right and are certainly looking to the Republican party for strategy if not ideology.
That makes room for a centre party that believes in both fundamentals:
> Free Enterprise; and
> Social Justice.
The Coalition have staked out a position that says that the economy is more important than people. That approach will make for a strong economy but tends to ignore real suffering. We're seeing that already in the slash and burn approach that Campbell Newman is taking in Qld.
On the other hand, we are seeing the Greens as being ideologically pure re social justice, but utterly naive about economic reality. They would have us pure as the driven, but nationally bankrupt.
To me Labor's past greatness has been it's struggle to find a balance between the two, e.g. doing things like lowering tariff's which made Australia a great free enterprise competitor while also developing strong social policies.
I think the majority of Australians are somewhere not terribly far from the political centre.
If Labor can credibly present itself as representing that middle ground, (which it did very successfully under Hawke), then it has a great future.
Labor's current problems in my view stem from looking to focus groups and polls for direction, instead of the timeless principles of creating a wealthy, yet fair and just society.
New party anyone?
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

@Hasbeen,

<<there is no pool of young new factory workers & labourers from whom to recruit new voters>>

I think you’re only seeing it from one angle, Hasbeen.

Belly is a typical old style Labor supporter.
No doubt, he's worked hard all his life, and paid his own way.
And does what he sees is good for the country.

If our industries fizzle that type of Labor support will diminish.

However, there is another (new) type of Labor supporter (or, more often, Green supporter).
These on the whole have never had a real job the their lives.
They rely on the govt either indirectly or directly for their upkeep.
And think they owe allegiance first and foremost to the UN.

This second group will expand exponentially.
And they will elect a good number of Green-Labor coalition govts of the future –leastways, till they completely cede our sovereignty to the UN

Belly,

The issue with a price on carbon has been between going along with the rest of the world and our competitors with regards price and timing, or going far far ahead of the rest of the world. The coalition has always stated that it would be prepared to put a price on carbon that reflected the international movement.

Presently among the major polluters ie, the Americas, India, and China, there is no national price on carbon. In Europe it is about $9 on 90% of emissions (or an average of 90c). In Australia the price will start at $23 and continually rise, the largest economy wide tax in the world.

That many industries believe that there will be a price on carbon in 2020, does not mean that any of them approve of Australia's massive tax, or believe that it will look anything like what we have now.

The Labor party decades ago was very different from the grubby, power hungry, incompetent, and ethically challenged mob we have today. The world has moved on from the organised labour base of the 70s and 80s, and Labour needs to separate itself from the death grip of the unions (who now represent only a tiny fraction of workers) and stop trying to fight battles from a different generation. To become relevant, Labor needs to focus on the needs and desires of this generation who are only prepared to support moral crusades if someone else pays for them.

Anthony, yes in part Hasbeen I agree.
But not with the new party.
Anthony if you look back at my history here.
And in a now stagnant or dead forum? from the ACTU against work choices, under *Mainstream unionist*
Even at my introduction to computers, you will see not much change.
I think I am new Labor, before my party has even thought about it.
Now know, my words here, and in the past DEMAND recognition of our birth, our past our present and our future!
And too our need to constantly evolve, to meet the voters mid way, to not freeze in fear at such as the greens.
And to take on head on hard clashes, the race to the right of our Tory enemy's.
Labor has in its past present BUT HOPEFULLY NOT FUTURE things to be ashamed of.
A Criminal NSW Premier Liberal, was followed by his equal, a Labor one, we hide under that awful word solidarity! that grub still.
I paid over $20.000 out of my pocket while working, could have billed it on, but some ride on the backs of workers/poor/needy every day.
We face a horrible future, do not gloat at my descriptive terms of SOME in the ALP, Liberals/Nationals and the true Republicans in the other side are as bad.
I may still be about in five years, if not look back and see I am not far wrong.
Abbott Pyne, both Bishops, Hockey, Morrison, are already yesterdays men and women, the acid mouthed woman who did not help on QaA is another.
See the fear and lies the servant nature of power and this opposition is going to be seen, maybe only after they take power.
Greens are just simply hated by 4 for every vote they get, yet feeding Labors troubles, in time they will go the way of the Democrats.
We will pay carbon tax it will be nearly all the world and the NBN will prosper.
A new generation todays upwardly mobile young, will switch to and come to control Labor, new accountable Labor
Continued

While I was part of the joy of Kevin 07 I too was part of the work choices pain.
As a proud trade union official I fought the unwindable fight too many times.
Julie Gillard in my view paid only lip service.
Her finger prints are all over our troubles.
Once she takes the last taste of Latham out of our mouth goes, we can start rebuilding.
We, each of us every single one must confront the hung Parliament and the awful wasted votes given to the greens.
They do not want consensus but control.
Along with the Gillard revolution we need to remove that control.
Labor cleans up the Gillard faction or dies, few of those lifting her to power care for the party as much as their self interests.

Should Labor go into furniture saving mode by bringing in Rudd and dumping principalled reforms Gillard supports then the swing towards popularism will be complete giving us two major reactionary parties with no no ambition but to hold power.

Mental health and disability, the MRRT, the CT, the NBN, industrial relations policy, the attempt at humane dissuasion of boat journeys and border control, these are all setting up a future in which Australia can look the world in the eye.

Labor's responsibility is to stand by its convictions and be judged by the electorate, not to cave in to self-serving MP's who may put their own political futures ahead of the country's. So far, the line has largely held but I admit to daily concern over whether it will continue to do so.

I will accept all the crowing and cuckolding that will no doubt come on OLO should Labor fail to maintain the line and will thereafter vote independent.

Dear LF,

I will continue to support Labor - as you pointed
out - for the reforms that
Labor is implementing. They deserve support - no matter
what scattergun tactics the Opposition uses. I can do
no other for I firmly believe that were they (the Opposition,
under Mr Abbott) ever to get into power - it would be
a total disaster for Australia.

What is the difference between a religious fundamentalist & the party fundamentalist?

The religious fundy believes s/he will go heaven.
But, the party fundy believes that as long as his/her party is in power s/he is already in heaven.

@ Luciferase,

“Should Labor go into furniture saving mode by bringing in Rudd and dumping principalled reforms…[ I will ] thereafter vote independent.”

Arrh…isn’t it that the same thing?

@Lexi,
“ I will continue to support Labor …I firmly believe that were they (the Opposition,under Mr Abbott) ever to get into power - it would be
a total disaster for Australia”

“Clive Palmer very clearly stated that under Mr Abbott we are looking at totalitarian control where everybody has to do what they're told"
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=5225#141771

Quite apt that it appears under a thread which is in part called: “Unspeakable Terror”

It must be about time for Richard Dawkins to bring out his sequel : THE PARTY DELUSION
God knows it's well and truly needed down under.

Dear SPQR,

We do have a "Party Delusion." Listening to Mr Abbott
and any of his front benchers confirms that.

All any of us need
do is take a look at "Question Time," in the House of
Reps. This popularly is supposed to be the dominant
House of Parliament (because governments are formed mainly
from its members), this ill-mannered debating society is
under the illusion that it runs the country while its members
spend their time deludedly being rude to one another,
cabinet, party heavies, pressure groups, lobbyists,
businessmen and overseas financiers get on with running
the country.

LF

If labor were to stand by its convictions, there would be no carbon tax under the Gillard government. What is so pitiful, is your attempt to pass it off as a principled stand rather than a grubby deal to seize power. The NDIS could have been funded, if we did not have a $7bn interest bill on the money squandered.

This government has been a shambles, and cannot hold a candle to the Howard government.

Thank you "Man of La Mantra".

You and Sopie Mirabella would be a match made in heaven.

Best wishes, love your work,

Do you truly think he is as bitter as that woman.
Yes very likely.
Only Shadow Minister introduced the thought Rudd or any leader would dump our policy's.
IT WILL NOT HAPPEN.
Our problem is Gillard not our policy's.
She lacks the ability to take the spotlight to Liberals lies and fear tactics.
Look at NBN, just re read SM words here on it.
Now see it will continue.
See the coal is dieing, read the share registers see how much Liberals have invested.
Do not look at me, look at general voters thoughts right now.
Know elections are not won by blindness, or hide under a blanket Dennie truth say no to reform and accountability.
And watch the ALP die!
It will not!
Those who care will continue to want better not hide failure.
Tell me after Gillard, ten points up IN polling she was not the problem.

And you O master of spin.

You and Craig Thomson would be great partners. I am sure that Juliar has every confidence in you too.

Look, the Labor Party will always do well because what choice does a person with compassion have?
You go to the Greens and have economic silliness, or you go with Abbott and company and have a party who sees no value in humanity only in the economy.
Both the Greens and the Coalition have very small basic constituencies, The Greens are supported at root by people who put ideological purity ahead of all else; the Coalition is supported at root by people who put their personal wealth above all else.
That leaves the bulk of thoughtful, caring middle Australians, who will always give Labor a fair go, except during periods like now, when the party forgets the basic truth I've outlined.
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

The voters certainly didn't hold a candle to
Mr Howard at the last election - I believe
they used a blow-torch in his electorate.

Oh don't talk such rubbish Anthony.

Remember that quote of Gillard's opinion of increased pensions. "Why give them anything, they don't vote for us anyway". Sums up the labor outlook.

I can't see much they have done for homeless, other than fill the public housing with bludging boat people. Must be a few Labor votes there. None in the homeless, most of them aren't registered to vote.

It's a strange party these days, pandering to the bludgers & no hopers, but mixing that with the arty crafty, inner city chattering class, academics & what's left of the union movement, especially the bureaucrats. No community of interest there, just votes available to buy with special policies tailored to suit interest groups.

Anyone claiming to see an ethos in that lot is kidding someone, probably themselves.

Hasbeen,
I'm always fascinated how people who disagree with you are 'foolish', or 'speak rubbish'.
In my experience those who immediately resort to abuse, do so because they have no confidence in the logic of their position.
You do nothing to disuade me from that point of view.
To be contrary, it is not necessary to be offensive.
You might try the well established procedure of respecting other people's point of view and thoughtfully mounting a counter argument.
You may even earn yourself the respect of your interlocuters in the process.
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

Mornin' Shad

Mornin' Soph

Lier!

Yeah, lier!

What's on?

OLO, not much. You?

Just practicing a few emotions. Mad Monk's coming for dinner, gotta shop. Oh Yeah!

Big New Tax! Big New Tax!

Yeah Big New Tax! Lier!

Yeah,lier, lier! Would you mind bringing in the washing when it's dry, Shad? Warm today.

Yeah warm. Non-anthropogenic tho'

Sunspots? Clouds? Coming out of the mini-ice age?

Nah, just warm I think. Hey, pick up some of those crusty roles from Brumbies, but tell'em to stick the CT up their @rse. Get some eggs too and we'll have an omelet for starters and see if MM can unscramble it.

Good idea. Reminds me, we'll play Scrabble after dessert, which is what we'll do to asylum-seekers, Soph, dessert, get it? Haha! Last time he got stuck with NBNMRRTCT and no vowels and just went dumb-struck jibbering silent. He can be a funny bugga, Mad can.

Yeah, he's good for a laugh alright when he has to think what to say. Anyway, must away, don't forget the washing. Lier!

OK luv, Lier too!

Nobody has answered my question;
Why does the temperature rise before the CO2 increases ?

Bazz, maybe this will put you out of your misery, maybe not.
http://www.skepticalscience.com/co2-lags-temperature-intermediate.htm

Anty baby, if ever I decide to abuse you, believe me you will know it. So far all I've ever used to you is terms of endearment.

Believe me, I do not expect anything anyone might say would convince you of anything, your a lost cause I'm afraid.

Still it is a bit ironic that you accuse me of not using arguments, I did not detect any in your last post, or many of your others. Typical lefty stuff, but never mind, I'll still respect you in the morning.

Hasbeen has an advantage over you Anthony, he has no need to be liked.
He likes himself enough to never have to consider his words are some times best used in the garden.

You're right, Belly, and while I try to point out to the has beens of this world, the error of their way, I'm resigned to their responses.
As time passes we're seeing the has beens become increasingly shrill, as their position becomes increasingly more tenuous.
But who knew it would happen so quickly.
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

The Labor hasbeens are finding themselves on the wrong side of history. With their economic silliness, their daily blunders, and the plethora of unpopular new taxes, the labor caucus is looking at an election in just over a year, being reduced to a rump, and having most of their legislation repealed.

"Juliar has lost the first week of the real carbon tax debate and is unlikely to recover ground any time soon, if ever. In strategic and tactical terms the Labor Party was beginning from behind on July 1 and actually went backwards. For Juliar the even worse news about the carbon tax emerging during the first week of its formal implementation was that it was not her only problem. The simultaneous introduction of the carbon tax and the minerals resource rent tax, the removal of the private health insurance rebate and the superannuation changes for higher income earners has masked uncertainty and electoral anger connected to those changes.

From last Sunday the countdown has begun to the time when Gillard can call a "normal" House of Representatives and half-Senate election and Labor now knows it is less than a year. While the Prime Minister's strategists calmly play down the prospect of any early recovery in the disastrous Labor polling after July 1 during the continuing roll out of billions of dollars in carbon tax compensation for households and industry bailouts, the realistic chances of turning things around diminish by the day.

What's more, Labor MPs who have gone home for the winter break are being confronted with ongoing anger about the carbon tax. They realise when they return to parliament for the spring session they will have an election deadline in sight."

Thanks for the link Luciferase.
A reasonable explanation. What did surprise me was the delay between
the two. About a thousand years to 10 thousand years.
At present we seem to be in a delay of five to 50 years according to
the legislation that has been applied to this problem.

However the whole problem is based on faulty data.
The IPCCs computer models do not have the correct value for available
fossil fuels.
I have seen a graph using correct data and overlayed on the graphs
that were produced by the IPCC and it shows a temperature increase of
less than one degree.

See the Upsalla web site for links.

Do stop blathering Anty, & try to answer my arguments. You always go off into this assumed superiority when you have no answer.

Belly old mate, if the best reason for holding an opinion is because it is more likely to make you popular, you have my sympathy.

Writing slow Hasbeen keep up mate.
Big frosts so far three below minus one 4 below.
Yet a brave little day Lilly is showing its head?
Did not know they did that lime colored buet too.
Have about 60 different ones right now, more after spring.
Now SOME say outlandish things to be noticed too bloke.
Opinions are free we all have them, I am a bit like you, do not care in the least.
If you want to talk tripe go ahead.
Any info on the flowers?

Belly good on you mate.

I don't have many daylilies flowering. It's been so wet this year that all the trees & shrubs have put on massive leaf, & the shading is cutting down the blooms.

We've had an almost frost, just a little of the couch has turned purple, but it is a strange year, with so much rain. Much leaf even on the hibiscus, & not as many blooms, until now. They should have shut up shop, but are flowering like crazy. Only about half size flowers, but in profusion.

Now if it would only dry out enough to mow, the place would look great.

All I need now is to be able to afford some heat, I'm too old for this track suit & three jumpers stuff.