At the 11th hour, after it was becoming clear that no agreement was to eventuate, an agreement was reached to negotiate an agreement by 2015, which in the best case will only become binding in 2020.

This has essentially just kicked the can 4 years down the track, whilst at best there is no commitment to reduce emissions until 2020.

For Australia, it means that the modelling upon which the carbon tax is based, which assumes that the major emitters will have a price on carbon by 2016 is faulty, and will need to be redone to let people know what the real impact of the tax will be on the economy.

Graham Y,

What ever software you are using it randomly cuts off the headline.

It should read something like:

"Climate talks bust, - parties agree to future talks"

I am real glad I am not a Climatist it would be like convincing a Dung Beetle to Mate with a Pig to save the Eco-Sphere.

its all just too clever by half
the yes woman running the yes maam party faithfull
into paying taxes now..plus a 10 billion slush fund..cause the worlds going for it[and the were front running..then were doing it cause everyopne else is doing it]

well they aint doing nuthin
we got a sceme that will raise a trillion dollars
where we pay more than anyone in the world for bying carbon credit

then what we 'eaise'..in one month exceeds that the world produces [sorry PAYS]..in a full year

but heck 10 %..of our tax..there is the 100 billion
that gets gifted to private entripeoneers..'partnerships'
who will opwn the lot..and we got nuthin to show for it..cause we arnt investing..were gifting it to scamers

its sad to see the beatup
yep the world will do it[after 2020
you will be paying it next year

yep we got an agrement
to makle an agreement..maybe 2015

its the whole smoking taxation scam all over again

give a bad dog a bad name
then tax it into submission[but what is the sub....
missionm..[to scam, your cash..with just another tax

note the book howard released today
to try to correct the lies of the global warming hoaxers
they teach sopinm to kids as gospil true...then they find out its a lie

then they become like me
angry bitter old men taxed ionto early graves by spin fear and guilt

no taxation without representation
[gee what a good idea]...TAX THE AB-users..not everyday users

ie tax the rich indians
not have the poor subasidise the rich..going over to solar
with i nice feedin mates rate..plus free solar cells..to the greenie grungy elites

It doesn't say that climate change is not proceeding, it just says that the world is broke. 1220 targets have to be met.

This tactic is as predictable as time itself. Delay, delay and more delay thus giving time for new taxes and asset stripping and control so no matter what the final outcome [consensus agreement or bust ] it's too late to save the populace from unfair, unjust and intrenched taxes.
Only the British PM has the balls to see thru all this crap and stand on his dig.

If only the fools had of decided to build a few more dams. At least then they would be able to look back and find one sensible outcome. As it is they will continue to live in delusion while robbing the taxpayer.

Will the bubble actually burst?

Judging by the expression on Christine Milne’s face at the conclusion of Durban, she has finally felt the baseball bat of reality, she has finally got it. The failure again, to reach anything other than an agreement to more gab feasts, after so many rounds with tens of thousands of warmers, the world has again said “what is it about NO you don’t understand?”

What really, really hurts Milne is the fact that she finally realizes that the real world has now created a “bubble of fantasy” for her and her useful idiots, in which she and the rest of the warmertariat can continue to exist without inflicting more harm upon the rest of society.

Other groups also signal their recognition of reality. The group that created the draft “Charter of Rights for Gaia” has essentially headed for a part of the bubble furthest removed from painful reality. They have collectively huddled together to suck on the corner of their comfort blanket and started to mumble incoherently. They will of course eventually require medication.

This bubble bears no resemblance to the real world of course, but it solves a number of problems. It insulates political sponsorship from the main body of the global warming phenomena and allows centre politicians to be the only survivors. It creates the illusion that politicians “really care”, publicly throwing crumbs of hope to the “bubble for the faithful” whilst allowing them to extract the remnants of declining voter support. It creates a place where the warmer advocates can live out their fantasies, but alas perhaps, not their careers and finally, it creates a single containment location where all those who can be blamed for the global warming scam can be easily found by the politicians when they perform their triple back flip with pike as they exit stage left and dump the movement.

All going nicely to plan.

Merry Christmas all and happy crumbling for 2012.

China India and USA the three biggest emitters, are to make an agreement between them. Hopefully by 2015. The costs of solar are coming down, and there won't be any reason for every house not to have solar. The amount of sq meters on an industrial roof, has got to be prime real estate.

Dear Spindoc,

I'm a bit more optimistic.

As far as the Conference went -
I feel that we all knew that getting an agreement
was not going to be easy.

Some people and governments see pollution
as a regrettable but inevitable by product of
desired economic development - "where there's smoke
there's jobs." Also the effects of pollution may
not show up for many years - severe environmental damage
can occur with little public awareness that it is
taking place - so why hurry to do something about it now.

Preventing or correcting pollution can be
costly, and technically complex. Which becomes
problematic for some.

However, in general, the most
industrialised nations are now actively trying to limit
the effects of pollution, but the populous less developed
societies are more concerned with economic growth, and tend
to see pollution as part of the price they have to pay for
it. Still, hopefully with the door still being left
open for further future plans - we can only hope that
something positive will eventuate.

Don't be too optimistic, Lexi.

Canada has just announced it's pulling out of the Kyoto Protocol - first signatory to do so.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-12-13/canada-to-pull-out-of-kyoto-protocal/3728268

....and this is probably one of the major contributors to the decision. The largest single industrial pollution site in the world.
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2009/03/canadian-oil-sands/essick-photography

On top of that, we now have former Prime Ministers launching "anti-warmist manuals" targeting school children.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-12-13/howard-lends-support-to-anti-climate-change-book/3727650

What a clever species (not)

Canada has pulled out of koto , it is into shale oil which usa needs.
Australia is a long way behind in renewables. USA is signing up a major renewable project each month. Victoria will have the largest wind farm in the southern hem; in 2013.

Lexi, you may well be more optimistic but you shouldn’t imply that I’m being pessimistic. On the contrary I’m delighting in the wide eyed astonishment of the warmers as they begin to realize that nothing is ever going to happen in relation to a global agreement. In fact they can now see that’s the game is over and every time they get together in such as Durban, any action gets pushed further and further away. It is called reality.

Sure they can have their meetings each year, bang some bongo drums and debate the issue of underarm deodorant. This bubble has been created for them, it is a little world of make believe, the politicians have said NO, but they just don’t hear. So they will go off to somewhere nice each year and have another chat about things within their bubble, the rest of the real world will get on with things and ignore them until they find something else to do.

I have no sympathy, if they don’t have the smarts to know they’ve been had, tough. As we have often discussed on this forum, it is possible to be both educated and gullible.

You need to stop pecking up the crumbs of hope being fed to you, you’re better then that. It’s done, finished, over. As Monty Python said, “This is an ex parrot”.

Next!

Nothing changes here at least 20 threads?
maybe
Many started by SM and the intent is to? tell me?
One poster refers to pigs and dung Beatles, now why, any chance we can drop that?
Or do we become a forum for those who lack the ability to even try to be civil.
And another, think on it pepper seems convinced England's stand in the EU totally unrelated! has some thing to do with this subject.

Cheer up!
It done! past our Parliament in law, NEGATIVE Abbott if he still leads the Conservatives will not change or withdraw it.
And todays detractors will have a Hernia trying to justify what they condemn today.
If Turnbull leads? double Hernia!

Dear Spindoc,

I believe in a clean-energy future for my grandchildren.
I believe in alternative energy sources to the dirty stuff
that's currently on offer - and I certainly don't believe that
we should continue as we've been doing - in carelessly dumping
noxious gases and particulates into the atmosphere. I do want
answers - whether a world population that will more than double in
forty years and thus produce double as many people to consume
and pollute - perhaps even more than they do at present - can be
supported by the environment.

If that somehow does not match with your view of things - that
is something you and your grandchildren will have to learn to
live with in the future. And if you don't consider your view as
pessimistic, that's perfectly understandable.

Further control
of pollution is politically difficult, for the economic interests
behind "smokestack" industries are a powerful political lobby
that is reluctant to commit the necessary resources to the task.

Good Morning Shadow Minister see you are here like me prowling the empty halls this morning.
Must say the thread pleases me.
Classic example of Liberals current policy emptiness.
Turning a NEGATIVE in to a positive.
It works too! on some, for a while.
The fact every country.
In the world
Including the biggest emitters, have agreed to cut emissions, shatters your sides paper Tiger.
We, have installed the laws, our way, of cutting it, others will in time do so.
At a future time,when you clutch climate change and climate tax to your breast as Liberal policy's I will remember.

Belly,

You said "The fact every country. In the world Including the biggest emitters, have agreed to cut emissions"

No they haven't. They have agreed to negotiate an agreement. In four years we may or may not have an agreement to cut emissions by an unknown amount. The only thing agreed is that nothing with happen before 2020.

In 2013 we will go to the elections as the only country in the world with a tax on 100% of generation emissions at a price that is the highest in the world.

Given the Durban failure, and the present public dislike of the tax, when the cost of living increases come through in 2013, the election fought on this issue will sweep labor from power. Based on this the carbon tax is not going to make it to 2015, even if it takes a year to deconstruct.

Dear Lexi, what we will leave our grandchildren is an unsustainable and socially crippling burden of energy cost. It does not matter if we did this through stupidity, naïveté or gullibility, we will still be held in contempt.

No one on OLO has any issue with the elimination of “noxious gasses and particulates” in the atmosphere. The pure folly of our actions is to include CO2. The next folly is to try to cut CO2 through taxes, the next folly is to create a renewables quota through consumer funding, rebates and feed in tariffs which result in people who can afford renewables being funded by those who can’t. The final act of mindless stupidity is to pretend that somehow, this will create jobs, grow our industrial capacity, reduce our cost of living and make things better for our grandchildren. I am fully reconciled with my grandchildren thank you, it is those who support this tosh who will be vilified, and rightly so.

The good news for our grandchildren is that this scam is coming to an end. Those who wish to continue to pretend they are doing something good can continue to play in the fantasy bubble that has been provided, you can even squawk at us from time to time. The rest of the real world will try to get over the social, financial, industrial and economic misery that has been inflicted by the warmertariat.

Our grandchildren will not dare speak the name of the phenomena that crippled their futures just to avoid us facing reality.

My mind sees after reading the thread again the great wisdom behind the three wise Monkeys.
One refuses to see.
One refuses to hear
One will not speak.
All the are content to not see speak or hear the Truth.
Yet truth exists and just as that tree in the forest will fall if it is heard or not.
Truth too will out.

Dear Spindoc,

Nobody denies that the planet has a finite amount of
resources or that it can tolerate only a limited
amount of pollution. If world population continues to
grow rapidly, if dindustrialisation spreads around the
world, and if pollution and resource depletion continue
at an increasing rate - and all these things are
happening - where is human society headed?

The most optimistic answer to these questions would be
that, one way or another, sweeping social changes
await us.

As for carbon dioxide? As a result of the burning of
fuels and wastes and the razing of forests, the amount
of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is steadily
increasing. This gas creates a "greenhouse effect"
on the planet, for it allows solar rays to reach the
earth's surface but prevents heat from radiating back into
space. The consequence will be global warming, which will
eventually cause the melting of the polar ice caps, a rise
in sea levels, and changes in weather patterns.

The warming effect is already under way, and average
global temperature is expected to rise by 5 to 8 degrees
Fahrenheit by 2030. This seems like a small change, but
minor fluctuations in global temperature can have drastic
consequences: during the last ice age, when much of North
America was covered with sheets of ice more than a mile
thick, average temperature was only about 5 degrees cooler
than today.

As for what the warmer climate will bring - among other things
it will bring about changes in the global circulation patterns
that drive the weather; more powerful storms and more
numerous hurricanes; rises in sea levels, flooding of river
delta cities ... and so on. But enough said.

I don't expect you to believe any of this - however - what
each of us believes is irrelevant. We need to recognise
that we need to do something to prevent grave damage to
the atmosphere - and a clean energy future is an investment
that just may help save this planet for future generations.
Arguing about costs is absurd.

Belly,

You and Combet only see what you want to. The "breakthrough" is nothing but spin to cover up the total lack of progress.

Otherwise, can you tell me what emissions reductions the following countries have committed to, and by when:
USA
Canada
Russia
China
India,
Anyone else?

Thought so!

The answer is that they have committed to bugger all until 2020.

Belly, you are soooo right. After Cancun we couldn’t wait to get to Durban. Only one more year to get this all sorted. The Durban wrap was the same media release as Cancun, almost word for word but it did save a lot of time by just copying the Cancun text.

Thanks to the progress in Durban we obviously don’t need to get too excited about the Qatar round next year, the main reason for this is that the next four years will be put on hold until the next “milestone” in 2015.

The good news is that the USA, India and China have “committed” to legally binding global CO2 reductions. Well, actually, they didn’t so much as, you know er, commit. What they actually said was we won’t block you having your discussions about discussing for the next four years, a draft binding treaty for our consideration for possibly agreeing to something but not before 2020. Well that’s great isn’t it? I think?

The great news is that each time we have a meeting like Durban; things really start to kick along and firm up. I mean Qatar 2012 was going to be, you know, sooo like sensational. It’s just that we seem to have been you know, like trashed for four years, plus another five years, anyway, whatever.

Anyway, from inside the bubble where we don’t “see” anything, we don’t “hear” anything and we won’t “say” anything until 2020, we really do feel like the three wise monkeys. Actually, not so much “wise” as events keep proving us wrong, but we definitely feel like monkeys. (You know as in “useful idiots” or “fellow travelers”)

Belly, this is so, you know really cool and well you know we “just don’t get” it but hey, this is so fun yeh?

See you in 2020 right?

Belly, P.S. you know we really do depend on your insights. Should we take the Bongo Drums to Qatar or should we stick with the nose flutes? As promised I’ll bring you back a genuine relic of that “peak oil” you were telling us about.

Dear Lexi, one of the great tragedies in your life is your gullibility. Almost all of the “stuff” you quote is a right load of old B*&%$#@!cks! Straight out of the “Flannery Book of Infinitely Unsustainable Rubbish” and you are absolutely right, I don’t believe any of it.

We all know that you know it is rubbish by the way you try to defend it. When are YOU going to tell your children that the Polar bears are fine, the sea levels are fine, the ice caps are fine, the Great Barrier Reef is fine, the Himalayan glaciers are fine and that there is NO catastrophic tipping point for climate change?

When are YOU going to give your kids a glass of ice and water, filled to the brim and explain next morning why the floor is not wet and that Archimedes was right?

When are you going to admit you were wrong and give your children and the next generation the chance you are denying them?

When are you going to acknowledge that you and your fellow CAGW social ragamuffins going to fez up to being had?

Dear Spindoc,

When? Simple. The day that Australia's top scientists and
this country's pre-eminent public research organisation,
CSIRO, agree with your take on things. Until then I'll
take their version over yours.

It seems that little has changed historically - when
ignorance and vested interests are confronted by
scientific facts. New ideas, instead of being welcome for
the opportunities they opened up for the improvement of
the human lot, are always threats to those who have
become comfortable in their ideologies (religious or
otherwise). Ah well that's par for the course. Education is
of course the answer. However, education only works with
an open mind. See you on another thread.

In yesterdays AFR, Greg Hunter summed up the outcome of the Durban confab very well:

"It is not a treaty, It is not even agreement for a treaty. It is an agreement for possible negotiation of an agreement for 2020"

Which is a bit of a pity, because treasury modelling for the Gillard carbon tax assumed that by 2015-16 things would all be sown up and the world would have a flexible price for carbon of $29.00 tonne.

And in today's AFR, we learn that Canada --a country with an export base which more closely resembles Oz than most -- has declared it will not renew Kyoto.

Under Gillard's climate policy Oz is getting more and more adept at playing the role of a shag on the rock.

Dear Lexi, I rest my case.

Pity about your kids and your grandkids. Anyway, you can always blame the CSIRO.

Congratultions, absolution comes cheap!

Dear Lexi,

In my experience behind every curmudgeon there are generally deep seated fears, and posturing, especially anonymously online, is a panacea that perhaps we should afford them during this festive month.

But then again maybe not.

Dear Spindoc,

I have once or twice on this forum mentioned my Creationist father-in-law. You so remind me of him. It doesn't matter what scientific proof of old earth or evolution I lay in front of him he has an answer often so strident in its delivery that it would convince most people that Moses and a T-Rex were on speaking terms.

However all the brow beating, or in this case seeming forum victories in the world doesn't change the facts. None of the increasing levels of CO2 molecules are going to suddenly think 'Damn that Spindoc is right, I don't matter!' and suddenly stop warming the planet.

Dear Shadow Minister,

I do find it interesting that the closer a tier of government is to the people the more active they tend to be in responding to the concerns of those same people about global warming and sustainable living.

In my state of Victoria there are some incredibly active councils doing some really good work on the issue. State governments perhaps less so but still far better than the Federal Government in many respects, especially with concrete on the ground mitigation initiatives.

The US and Canada are good examples, California in 2006 passed AB-32 requiring the state to reduce its emissions and last year the state of Maryland imposed a carbon tax. It should be noted that California has twice the GDP of Australia, perhaps it is there we should be making our comparisons.

Or indeed Canada. The provinces of Quebec and Alberta introduced carbon taxes in 2007 and British Columbia followed suit a year later. Their GDP is equivalent to Australia's.

So why the differences in tiers? Perhaps the more divorced a level is from the people the more susceptible they become to undue influence from large corporations, some of the biggest tending to be those in the energy industry.

Csteele,

Firstly since the thread was about the outcomes of the Durban conference, and you have not mentioned any thing from this, I assume that you acknowledge its failure.

Secondly your comment:"The provinces of Quebec and Alberta introduced carbon taxes in 2007 and British Columbia followed suit a year later. Their GDP is equivalent to Australia's." Is incorrect their combined GDP is less than half of Australia's. Even if all of the carbon prices go ahead (most at prices way below that of Australia), they still cover less than 20% of the world's emissions, and none of the large growing emitters.

A review of the EU cap and trade scheme has indicated that the reduction of emissions was almost entirely due to the GFC. The achievements in emission reductions in all these countries over the past 5 years compensated for a couple of months growth in China alone.

valid points shadow man
the parties agree...to agree on an agreement
on the bnever never..maybe in 2020,..the new blokes..will have facts that arnt pure spion and bile

[blame/shame/for personal gain]

20/20!

its a easy kick into touch
knowing there can be no scrum till 2015
and no hooker in the scrum before 2020

yet the deaf remain deaf
the blind remain blind

they are 20/20
which only in their eyes means perfect sight

but in this case proves we were right

but lets recall this spin doc
re quote of our ol mate belly

who even to lost theories
remains true blue

i so love you good belly
but loyalty..your too darn loyal

is it us deaf blind...or those
who arnt loyal to you

"""Anyway,..from inside the bubble
where we don’t “see” anything, we don’t “hear” anything and we won’t “say” anything until 2020,...!

we really do feel like the three wise monkeys.

Actually, not so much “wise”
as events keep proving us wrong,
but we definitely feel like monkeys.

(You know as in “useful idiots”}"""

no as mushrooms
[kept in the dark and fed only on bull muck][spin]
teqnocratic spin...authoritive peer pervieuw..

and grece/italy just got teqnocrats
subverting democratic process..democratic elected leaders..[gone]

lol

mate listen to bbc..BEFORE you read ya papers
its free on news radio...and on public broadcasting every moring]

then read your papers
your not deaf nor blind..nor un read
so dont take anything personally..your a good man...just too loyal

""Belly,this is so,
you know really cool and well you know
we “just don’t get” it but hey, this is so fun yeh""

lets keep it fun
we try to educate you
you trying to re educate us

but mate..20/20...
that says it all!*

Dear Spindoc,

Look, I fully understand where you're coming from and how
emotive this issue is for you. You're not alone, and I
respect your opinion (but not your facts)
however, as CSteele has pointed out this
does not change what's happening.

As for my blaming CSIRO - on the contrary, I value the
organisation greatly - as well as Australia's top scientists.
Having worked with some of them for quite a few years.

Dear CSteele,

You always manage to come in at just the right time.
Thank You. Much valued and appreciated!

Lexi/csteele, yes we hear you loud and clear. The socialization of science has created a public debate on a highly divisive and contentious debate. Impossible though it may be to determine even which scientists are qualified, we have the even more impossible task of trying to determine which members of the public are qualified.

The real issue is of course that mostly we, the public, have no qualifications but we have been given lots of opinion. Some of us chose to “believe” such opinions, adopt them as gospel and promote them. This is called unconscious incompetence. It is the unconscious incompetence of the believers that sustains a phenomenon that will do incalculable harm to future generations and yet the believers dress this up as “meritorious”.

C.P. Snow had much to say on this in his Rede lecture in 1959. Sadly he has been proven correct by people such as yourselves; incredibly you just don’t get it but you do believe.

Dear Shadow Minister,

My apologies. The Durban conference was only implicit in my post and I should have been explicit. It was a 'fourth tier' type of governance and as such yet another step removed from the wishes of the people.

As to the GDP of the three Canadian provinces compared to Australia the fact appears to lie somewhere between the two of us it would seem, although I am happy to examine any data you might have.

As accuracy is important in this debate, even on something this inconsequential I hope you will forgive a quick explanation on my figures.

Not wanting to make the same mistake with Canadian Dollars I have gone to http://databank.worldbank.org , selected 'World Development Indicators and Global Development Finance' then under variables chose Canada and Australia, under series picked 'GDP (current $US) and under time picked 2008 as this was when the carbon tax was brought in.

The figures returned were;

Australia - $1,039,415,095,377
Canada - $1,499,107,812,266

The link;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Canadian_provinces_and_territories_by_gross_domestic_product

shows that in 2009 the share of the Canadian GDP of the three provinces mentioned was 48.58% giving a figure of $728,266,575,168. That is around 70% of Australia's GDP.

Therefore from the data I am happy to acknowledge they are indeed not equivalent but nor are they 'less than half'. Willing to be convinced otherwise.

Dear Lexi,

I've just flung a little popcorn from the cheap seats at an increasingly pugnacious contributor. You have done all the heavy lifting so hats off to you.

Dear spindoc,

You said “It is the unconscious incompetence of the believers that sustains a phenomenon that will do incalculable harm to future generations and yet the believers dress this up as “meritorious”.”

I couldn't agree more.

Csteele,

I carelessly dropped a state in my calcs, so it isn't less than half, but still a long way from equal.

I'm glad you are not one of those trying to kid themselves that Durban was a breakthrough.