Can we do anything,really truly anything to avoid these problems.
With out a move toward birth control world wide the answer is no positively and firmly no never.
So what do we do?
IF we reformed the charter of the United Nations, not made it one world government, but a tool for all the worlds governments could it work.
I would remove the power of veto, well have at least 40% for veto before it took place.
Craft, get approval for,world basic laws controlling such as birth control for every country.
Food production , maybe give some country's exclusive rights to preserve work and hence keep people at home.
Why do we humans let whole nations live still in the dark ages, we do you know.
Tribal chiefs became warlords or kings and queens, then dictators whole country's North Korea.
A true United Nations could set free these millions in many country's.
Put as America did in Japan governments in place till they grew.
Or do we continue to breed children to die mid life of starvation?

*Can we do anything,really truly anything to avoid these problems.*

Yes we could, Belly. Australia spends 4 billion$ a year and rising
on third world aid. None of it goes to family planning in the
third world. All sorts of deals were done between the Libs
and Harradine (a catholic), when Howard needed his vote to sell
Telstra.

Labor could be brave and start to fund family planning in the
third world as part of foreign aid.

All the countries involved are perfectly capable of growing enough food for their population.

Corruption and kleptocrasy have left nothing to support the people with the result that food production in these countries has shrivelled.

Only regime change can have long term success.

Yabby/Shadow Minister I want t go much further.
We all must confront the truth.
World population growth must stop.
And in my view we will see more deaths from starvation than we ,even I,can imagine with out change.
Refugees are linked to food shortages .
First how would we change say North Korea? we know surely these people, whole generations of them are brain washed?
May not,from the end of the Korean war, have any idea one family has no right to own a whole country.
Somalia, those dieing this morning there have no PC , no radio television, their whole education tells them every thing is the will of their God.
We unless blind can not measure their ability's to grow food against ours.
Look at the Arab spring, it in part is driven by the people seeing via communications a better way.
I propose, an end to Bureaucracy wasting food aid, or 40 cents in every dollar being stolen
That a UN supported by EVERY country's army's, distribute all aid.
Remove all government by dictators and those that threaten the life and liberty's of some of their own people.
That some work, manufacturing of some products, be isolated to those country's most in need of work and lifestyle aid.

I know, some will say its a Socialist attempt to have one world government, or a right wing one.
It in my view is saying we can do better we must do better.
We are failing right now, we put millions of dollars into this and every ten years have more mouths to feed more deaths, more filthy rich thieves.
I reject totally the view it is their own fault, right now in Somalia criminal war lords mad as hatter religion driven murderers.
International pirates, make victims of the whole population.
A UN police force court system prisons, food aid distribution system vs endless deaths robbers piracy terrorist breeding.
Give me an answer?
Birth control first, China has a system, it will lead to big trouble.
India and China, other country's too kill girl children, most want sons.
One day wars will Be fought for brides for those country's.
But two child births per couple by world law would see, with natural deaths of some , stability to our numbers.

Belly,

Population is only one facet of the problem. For example in 1960 India's population was 400m and there was mass starvation. Today there are 1.2b living with far less food problems.

In the horn of Africa, they are producing less food now than in 1970.

Belly, I am afraid I am very pessimistic.
In some African countries they would not let the medical people give
anti polio injections because they said it was to sterilise them.
It was a western plot !
Any area has to be able to support its people through drought.
So it is Somalia this week and there has to be a die off to reduce the
population to that survival level.
They have, because they have been trying to keep a too large a
population in the area, they have not built up the resources to
import food. Therefore they must walk away or die.

So to prolong the agony the UN jumps in and feeds them until they
either die in the camps or go home and wait for the next drought.
The world is up against a soil and population and energy clash.
The UN would be better off before the drought flying over those
countries dropping condoms from the air.
It would be a lot cheaper than what they are doing now.
Safer also, they wouldn't get shot by the Islamists.

Belly, you've got to be kidding mate. Let the UN into anything & it will cost twice as much, & twice as many will die.

They are bad enough as it is, real yes prime minister stuff with the selection of the Secretary General, & many others, so we must get idiots.

Lets face it, they could put someone like the red headed twit up there, & surround her with idiots, like we have.

Are you sick mate? this is your second bleeding heart type post.

Worth the read.

But will there be too many of us? At the PAA meeting, in the Dallas Hyatt Regency, I learned that the current population of the planet could fit into the state of Texas, if Texas were settled as densely as New York City.

The goal in India should not be reducing fertility or population, Almas Ali of the Population Foundation told me when I spoke to him a few days later. “The goal should be to make the villages livable,”

If in 2045 there are nine billion people living on the six habitable continents, the world population density will be a little more than half that of France today.
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/print/2011/01/seven-billion/kunzig-...

Dear Belly,

Much of this topic has been covered in my Somalia thread.
However, here goes again...

As I've stated in the past - political, religious,
and other ideological influences affect social
attitudes concerning population limitation.
Of course family planning is an essential element in
population limitation, but the strategy is not
sufficient in itself.

The family planning efforts,
in many less developed nations fail, it seems
because the resources of poorer societies are
unfairly shared: typically, a tiny elite enjoys a
disproportinate share (and its birth rate drops),
but the mass of the people remain in hopeless
poverty (and maintain high birth rates).

Policies that focus on a sharing of resources,
rather than exclusively on economic development
that may only benefit a minority, may be a
promising way to reduce global population growth.

Shadow Minister,

We were saved from the mass famines predicted by Paul Ehrlich and others for the 1970s by the Green Revolution. The Green Revolution effectively represented a bargain between humans and their grain crops. The crops could put more energy into grain and less energy into stems, leaves, roots, and chemical defences because the humans would worry about spacing, controlling weeds and other pests, and supplying water and nutrients. All of the human side of the bargain is dependent on cheap fossil fuels and abundant fresh water. Grain prices closely track crude oil prices. See Graph 2 in

http://www.ifad.org/events/gc/32/roundtables/1.pdf

Grain prices are even higher now than in 2008 when there were food riots in 34 countries. Thanks to population growth, grain production per person peaked in 1984. Bazz is right. We are running out of cheap oil and running out of enough fresh water in many places, including Somalia.

It would take the resources of three Earths to give everyone in even the existing global population a modest Western European standard of living, as shown in this graph from New Scientist

http://www.newscientist.com/data/images/archive/2624/26243101.jpg

We might be able to feed everyone adequately, just, for the present, if we had a world government with a command economy that could stop grain from being turned into ethanol or fed to Chinese pigs and send it to the Somalis and Yemenis. However, the global population is growing at 75 million to 80 million a year, about the same as in the 1970s. The growth rate has fallen, but the base is larger.

Lexi,

Sharing resources would do no more than spread the misery everywhere. The West effectively did share resources with the world's poor with the Haber-Bosch process and the Green Revolution, which greatly increased food production. Most of the the Third World people who rail at Western countries wouldn't be here without them. Some poor countries took advantage of these advances to develop and become part of the First World. South Korea was tied with Senegal for poorest country on earth in 1960. Others just put the gains into bigger families.

You and Belly might consider whether the pronatalist religions, kleptocratic elites, etc. are not all just expressions of local cultures. If anything, development should be easier for the latecomers than for our own ancestors. After all, they know that development is possible and know what policies are needed to achieve it. Furthermore, they can learn from our mistakes and leapfrog over obsolete, dirty technology. If they can find out about and often get access to cigarettes, mobile phones, soccer, mass entertainment via radio and television, and migration to developed countries, then they can find out about clean water and sanitation, contraceptives, universal primary education, equality for women, and the rule of law. Much of this can be implemented from the bottom up. Ultimately, only they can decide to fix their problems, and help is futile otherwise.

Landrights4all,

The issue isn't how many people can be fitted into a telephone box, as students used to do in the 1960s, but of the resources needed to support them. See

http://www.footprintnetwork.org/en/index.php/GFN/page/ecological_footprint_atlas_2010

In this single thread, we see the tower of babble humanity truly is,some opinions need another look.
I understand culture and religion are involved, my post said that.
And yes we can indeed stand back and let them starve, but should we.
It is all very well to put figures up saying there is plenty of room for us all, but it ignores truth.
It ignores Education, possibility's, ability's for so many of these victims.
Hasbeen, do you truly think like that.
If we rely on evolution, the survival of the fittest, we condemn our selves, at some time in the future.
While we sit and watch mass deaths survivors,the strong, will remember we sat with our meat and three veg's and watched.
And if we are not in charge of change such as my view of a real UN it will happen and as a dictatorship.
No human should not be shaken by the death of another.
Hasbeen, hear me mate,why did you post that insult in a thread that has nothing to do with her about Julie Gillard, tell me it was not a troll like low blow.
One day this fine forum must rule on why the difference, why can you and others so obviously needlessly insult but others get chipped for it.
You mate did not need to get that in this thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgDAxCcXdZ0 Yes belly, a bad case of the indeed.

Enjoy

LEAP

Watched the link QL thanks.
Tell me I am wrong but I see the need for humanity to be as one, at least in some matters.
And yes I want others to tell me, not just my views.
This thread is not about Abbott/Gillard Australia.
If a massive earth quake was about to kill ten percent of our population would we want others help.
Can the other half of the world die of starvation and not effect us.
Population control, is it needed.
If the answer is yes do we leave every country, say any African one, to do it.
Some time some day we will confront the need for a set of earth preserving laws rules we all live by.
Or in time die from our own neglect, of those others.

I have said it before & I'll say it again.
Let nature take it's course. Bob Guildoff saved them once before. Now there's twice as many. Things didn't get any better for these people. In fact it got worse for the help. Now we have twice the Terrorists & a new type, the Ship highjacker. The very people we saved from starvation back then.
If the West saves these people now, what will the West be faced with in 20 years time? As thanks for our efforts.
The Islamists have seen what Spring can bring. Do you think they will ever let these people get educated?

Belly,
While we must provide food aid for the immediate situation, is a given.

I think we must consider the longer term view and work toward reducing the birthrates in the countries most at risk of famine.

I certainly have no faith that the UN is the body to do this and oppose any additional powers for the UN. In fact I would not mind if Aus pulled out of the UN all together, as i have no faith in their ability to do anything. They have failed in Africian countries before and nothing was done in Zimbarbwi, which was highly productive previously. There was massive slaughter of the Tuttsies or others while the UN did nothing. Somarlia is a failed state and the UN should have taken over. Slaughter in the Sudan, and the UN is involved in bombing Libya to force a change of government, that could be worse than the present.

The record for the UN is very poor and likeminded countries should bypass it to bring birthrate down in some countries. If the Un could do anything, it should put presure on religions to change their policies on birth control.

Belly,
If our present government really wants to lead the world in something then, tell them to forget the Carbon tax and seek out other countries that are willing to reduce their financial committment to the UN and put the funds toward reducing the birthrates in the worst countries.

It would be far better value for money and doing something practical and beneficial for humanity and the world.

So true Banjo. I don't see how anyone, other than a greenie could think otherwise.

Do I really think like that Belly, anyone who doesn't is a dreamer or an idiot.

To add to Banjo's list, if the UN were still in charge of Bosnia, it would still be a war zone. In two & a half years all they did was get people killed.

It was only when the US picked up the tab, & with the UK, & led NATO in there that anything happened. Any cent given to the UN will be wasted in some rip off. It really time we got the bunch of leaches off the collective backs of the developed world, & let it sink into the stink of it's own making.

Banjo and Hasbeen

Dont expect anything from the soon-to-be-ejected Gilliard Government of cumulative failure

Julia is hanging on to power for the benefit of her own ego

She will impose a Carbon tax and thereby achieve equality....

But in this case, the only thing about her equality is people of Australia will have less and less....

That is why Joe Hockey was right and why the Liberals will rescind the Carbon Tax and sack all those useless civil servants of the Climate Commission...

and the Greens will be history... so to Windsor and the other turncoat independents. Of course, the Labor party will be decimated.... back to less than in the glorious days of Menzies



and the real world will deal with the problems of Africa....

Of course, for the sake of Africa they should probably recolonise it...

as an example, in Southern Rhodesia, Africans had no vote but they did bot starve

Under Mugabe they still don't get a fair vote.... and they do starve - actually, they are starved as a matter of Mugabe Government Policy....

Col and hasbeen,
I do not care which mob here proposes a coalition with other countries to reduce birthrates in those countries that are susseptable to famine, but I wish one of them would.

It would be far better than giving money in overseas aid and throwing money at the UN which just chews up billions, for no or little value.

I also think it would do more for humanity and the enviroment of the world than any carbon tax.

As I have said before, if Iran can reduce their birthrate from 6.5 to 2 per woman, then other countries could reduce theirs, and the whole world gains. I don't like to see pictures of starving kids either.

hasbeen yep, I agree totally.....

Just a quick point... India and China in ascendancy...

why?

simple

They are not strapping their national economies to an environmental guilt trip, like this looney labor government and most of the governments of Europe

Bring on the next general election

then those who want to help Africa can do so from the money saved by not being forced to pay higher prices due to the passing on of carbon taxes.

GY hows it going? not angry Graham, not even upset.
Posters may not believe this but I am more interested in open and honest discussion of any subject than point scoring.
And believe me I am both in control and quite capable of launching in to verbal warfare.
What has the subject got to do with the Australian Labor Party government.
I promise this, I am making extreme efforts, not to become as provocative, as needling, as NASTY with forethought, .
It serves no one to turn OLO in to a site that can not talk about issues without CHILDLIKE slings and arrows.
Yet I, always look for the better side in any one, we every one of us, must CONFRONT this, some are not capable of better.
Hasbeen you are, glimpses of understanding come , rarely but shining in your efforts.
Now was it jay of Melbourne?
I am known for my lack of interest in power we wrongly give to any religion, and distrust of Muslim separatism.
Have you watched a human die?
I have far too often, it never entered my head to think it was for the best.
Have you been truly hungry? really painfully hungry,I have.
We can do better while others are considering finding new ways to insult the ALP me, all who follow, I will put my time in to looking for answers
continued.

So many will think me heartless, yet I am only saying it as it is, many, far too many, maybe most Australians will say let them die.
Unless they walked in to those tents, even the worst of my PROVOCATEURS would have a child in their arms and wet cheeks in a minute.
Most Australians, include me, doubt any groups ability to not see donations pilfered wasted miss used.
In fact we do not trust Authority from our local council, to government Utility's, and the Public service.
At times we get it wrong dedication and great work comes too from all these groups.
But Australian owned firms face court changed with? becoming part of the Asian/African economy,in the worst but back bone, bribery corruptions, that is life.
These problems are real, the death and suffering too.
We have as a subject re starting the UN making it work to set world wide rules.
If we fail the death may not be confined to Africa/Asia an illness breed in such death camps can kill us all.
If we, humanity as a whole, not confront problems as bad as this? we face a one world dictator ship one day as our devisions stopped us fixing it.
I doubt, given our efforts just here, self interest will in my life time let us put humanity's interests first.

Sorry Banjo addressed my last post to hasbeen.... it was meant for you...

But I think we are all reading from the same page

I see we have someone else making noises here....

from his past behaviour, I suggest it is best to just ignore his posts commpletely.

For a start, there is nothing in them worth reading (not even for a belly laugh) and all he and his little gang do is use provocative language... like calling someone a "troll"

and then complain when he receives an apporpriate response, effecting leftwing censorship against those who hold a alternative view to their despotic ideas

like I said...

best ignore him completely as if he did not even exist

OK please other posters let us not kill the thread by leaving because of an unpleasant person.
Even if you think that person is me.
See just how much effort I am putting in to a thread I started to ignore a problem.
This is about massive deaths, the very future of humanity.
Can we,here in OLO discus Birth control, World Wide, do we wish to see impending massive increases in refugees world wide.
Can we here not understand we fail awfully every time this type of thing happens we continue to breed the dead children's brothers and sisters but many more of them.
I came, rude and crude, from other forums to this one.
I grew, and still do, but OLO has lost so very many over the years who knew how to talk about the big issues.
If it is a weakness to not sit in the gutter and hurl insults, then call me weak.
But my self assurance need not defend me, my enemy's do it for me.
Do we want to talk about a future better than our past or our present.
Or do we look at every death as nothing to be concerned about.

yes belly, your quote with-in your words of truly understand the problem, and if the "world was one" was to made a global LAW, that would be the only easy to say to that the panel that's governments ( the UN think-tank, AND once an international governess gives the 7 billion people an international collectivity rulings and making the laws in each counties would make people be awareness our overpopulation problems with advertizing the currant levels of dangers breeding will cause as the riots of unemployed youth that they can easily see that jobs are never going to be a goal since 7 billion people will cause knowingly they have no chance, and will the rich that are just rounding around in our tax payers money, is just the reason that the poor and rich are going to have to balance out? "
and its all because of greedy ( in their old ways of thinking, which has now they support low IQ females poping out babies for money just for so they to survive on. Because the currant system only rewards the rich and the rich only, we can see the true human nature of mankind and it private under the table deals that thanks right today, that no-one is seeing.....Well best bet your bottom dollar, there is more corruption in today world than history has ever seen.

All the major countries are going down, why you might ask....TO MANY PEOPLE! NOT! There is a way out of all this, however its not a quick-fix.

Continued

A LAW will be made that if you can support your child/children with out Government support, I child 1 will be legal within a five period.

This will mean befour you even think of having that child, you will have to apply for one, given both parents pass the test that you are the qualifier that meets the requirements, such a One or both are in full time employment, you or both have suitable accommodation, and all that goes with the child's best interests and MUST MAINTAIN this environment plus costs until the child/s reaches the age of twenty one.

In the that five years,(starting 1012 ) time frame, all must meet the time requirements that will be exempt from all government assistance....to a point.

( the rich and working partners may breed wit out penitently) any time they please......but just a reminder, if situations changed, your family must be a supporter of the break-down family, again until the childrens or child's well being until 21 years.
For the rest, ONE YEAR will be open for all that to give birth to child or child's, will FULL government purport as it is now. Any breaches of this LAW, Abortion or adoption will offered free of charge.

In simple terms, if you can support in child from your or yours and meet the requirements of application,......because on-one wants to see another child in poverty in Australin or else in the world for matter.

Or 8 billion...9billion...10 billion and so on....if this happens, your child could face a world where is just its fault.

Have a thing please.

Your next child wont be happy at you in the slightness.

Have nice.

LEAP

Belly,

Don't pay any attention to the odium emanating from one commentator - some of us recognise the waft of (ob)noxious effluvia when we come across it - and we avoid interaction with it.

Just two be to clear, the point...is..1 year all can give birth.

Five years for all that can afford to support the child until 21

There. that's how stop the breeding of you know what, and the rest will be a major plus to the society for the future of us things.

Thank Q

LEA

Hey QA “A LAW will be made that if you can support your child/children with out Government support, I child 1 will be legal within a five period.”

I like the idea but it will not work for a couple of reasons

1 Socialists, the sort of idiots who, from time to time, end up forming marginal governments by bribing others to join them, will always pervert it to ensure those who cannot support their own children, even with welfare handouts, get away with burdening them on “the state” and the philanthropy of well-meaning citizens.

2 we have too much government and too many laws already. More laws means more public servants and more government pointlessness and more taxes, reducing what is left for real people to bring up their own children.

3 even the Chinese could not enforce it… and being a communist/socialist country, it was prone to massive abuses and corruption, as is inherent in all socialist/communist systems.

As a footnote I see you use the term “No-one wants to see another child in poverty in Australia”

That reminds me of something Bob Hawke said…
Bob Hawke, a well known failed (failed in that his political policy demand have not happened), socialist politician. A fornicating adulterer who left his wife to her dementia and was (possibly deservingly) stabbed in the back by his “Brutus”, Keating - an even bigger failure than Hawke

WEll Col..matey....lets see what your attitude will be, when all of the youth that's unemployed realizes the 20th century high and mightiest have made the populations the way they are:)( one job of 20 people )

Col! I think you can explain to the job-less your point of view, then with the future predictions and the mechanical robots take the place of humans when 8-9 billion becomes a reality.

Human Growth verses technology.....lol

Have fun:)

LEAP

Members.....if you think about our currant probs....while you think the humans race will be just fine.....remember the ten rats in box compared with just two in the sane size box.....well....dont say you weren't warned:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5v-spW3cMkE&feature=related

Have a look at what we will be facing in the next 100 year.

I don't think anyone/anything wants be meeting our own extinction.

So why are you all doing nothing about?

With your way...enjoy the burning of the candles from both ends.

Where to now you say......I know:)

LEAP

Poirot I know you are giving wise advice, I truly do.
Just as some dogs must chase cars, others pee on every tree, some have to display a certain inability to control an inner child like in ability to act with pride.
Banjo, mate please read my posts ,I have said just about every thing you have twice.
Targets must be
World birth control fair balanced but world wide.
Removal, of every dictator, every war lord every religion based confining government.
The answer is not the rich inflicting rules on the poor but not doing it them selves.
How? stop every support cash payment for children after the second.
No baby bonus nothing.
Reward every mother of two children for cutting her tubes.
Poorer the person bigger the reward.
Yep understand its brutal but the problem is worse and will be horrific in ten years.
Bob Hawk is/was a very fertile bloke, but is he truly the reason our world is over populated?
Gee he was a busy bugger.

You cant beat the truth. Your jobs will be done by machines. enjoy your life of the dole. Three billion for all things to live as one.

Its your planet!

aLL THE BEST.....coz your going to need it.

7/8/9/billion....and what do you think will left.

You work it out.

And the clock is ticking.

The world population is the total number of living humans on the planet Earth, currently estimated to be 6.94 billion by the United States Census Bureau.[1] The world population has experienced continuous growth since the end of the Bubonic Plague, Great Famine and Hundred Years Wars in 1350, when it was about 300 million.[2] The highest rates of growth—increases above 1.8% per year—were seen briefly during the 1950s, for a longer period during the 1960s and 1970s; the growth rate peaked at 2.2% in 1963, and declined to 1.1% by 2009. Annual births have reduced to 140 million since their peak at 173 million in the late 1990s, and are expected to remain constant, while deaths number 57 million per year and are expected to increase to 80 million per year by 2040. Current projections show a continued increase of population (but a steady decline in the population growth rate) with the population to reach between 7.5 and 10.5 billion by the year 2050.

My plain will slow us down, and your kids will thank-you for the reversing the breeding epidemic that all will know in time, will save us all.

If not......I would say in time, you can all go to hell......but by the numbers........I think your all ready there.

Good luck:)

Too many.....well just look around! all is fine.hahahaha.....isn' it:)

Only way out, I have already told you.

DONT BREED!......have fun by all means, but NO children. Every five years will do it. Then the balance will come back on-line.

The reduction of human-population will happen so slowly, you wont even notice......but the changes of things getting better, you wont even notice it either.....its the only fair way out.....or grow into our billions and then, all will be gone.

LEAP

There is a much simpler solution, Quantum. Just give third world
women a choice. You are not going to stop people having sex, but
provide the needs for family planning. There is clearly still a
huge unmet need not being met. It would not cost the earth.

All those third world women dying from backyard abortions don't do
so for fun. They do so because they are screaming out for help,
which is not being provided. Only in the first world do women have
choices. The evidence is clear. Given the choice, women will limit
their family size. Don't give them that choice, you land up with
what we have now. More and more people, starvation and misery.

QL - automation and job losses have gone hand in hand for the past 200 years, since someone found a better way of carpet croppong than by hand and someone else invesnted the spinning Jenny.

However, there was a growing economy and people were invention new things, large production replacing hand production, mass production replacing large production so things became cheaper and more available for those who could not have previously afforded the hand made article.... and that new production employed those who lost employment from cropping carpets and hand spinning cotton....

I recall the 1970s and seeing TV shows predicting the loss of jobs due to robotics and the paperless office due to computers.

Heck we use more paper than ever before and someone has to make and maintain the robots (actually I have a quote to supply something to one "robotic machine" maker at the moment)

The big difference between 200 years ago and now.... the job market is distorted by stupid laws and union restrictive practices which price manufacturing our o the country and over seas....

So look to the socialists for the job loss problems they have caused...

it is nothing which any amount of socialist welfare will ever cure.

One other thing... I egt the impression you think things are tougher for GEn X and Gen Y than for B'Boomers... and previous generations...

you are wrong, of course...

So you have challenges to face .... but so too BBs had the challenge of living with a nuclear horror which has receded

My parents and grandparents generations were shaped by two World Wars

and the great depression..

at least you don't have to worry about contracting tuburculosis (which one of my grandfathers died from) or polio or diptheria...

At least you might live long enough to solve a few problems for the benefit of Gen Z and Gen AA....

but I bet GEn Z and GEn AA dont thank you for it.... they will be too pre-absorbed coming to grips with their own "generational issues"

Yabby: Just give third world women a choice. You are not going to stop people having sex, but provide the needs for family planning.

Yabby, Yabby, Yabby. You just don't get it do you. We are not talking about the West with all it's Political Correctness, niceties, politeness, couth & culture & over educated Larte greenies snobs. We are talking about uneducated, tribal nomads who have an oppressive ancient religion & equaly ancient local customs. There is no equal rights for the women there. They have never heard of such a thing. They do have family planning of sorts. When the husband goes away he sews his wifes virgina up with Acasia thorns. Such is their way of life. It's so his neighbour doesn't take advantage of his absents. If his neighbour did take advantage then he'd have to kill her for the shame she has brought on him. Go figure.

Leave them to their fate & let nature take it's course. Let the Islamic countries deal with the situation & look after their own. The West should steer well clear of this region of the World.

Jayb, its your kind of ignorance, along with that of the Vatican,
that is actually part of the problem.

I don't believe in either extreme, I believe that that the answer
lies somewhere in the middle. I am all for empowering people to
help themselves. Given a choice, you would be amazed how many would
take that option.

Plenty of work has been done in this field, by the Guttmacher
Institute, by Marie Stopes and similar. The evidence is clear,
what people need is to be given that choice. Not denied it by
either yourself or the Vatican. So how many kids would you
have, if you were denied that choice?

Yabby: Jayb, its your kind of ignorance, along with that of the Vatican, that is actually part of the problem.

Yabby, I'm all for these women getting family planning, Choice, equal rights, etc. I really don't give a rats a$(# about what the Vatican thinks or says. Who takes any notice of them anyway.

The reality is;

We are not talking about the West with all it's Political Correctness, niceties, politeness, couth & culture & over educated Larte greenies snobs. We are talking about uneducated, tribal nomads who have an oppressive ancient religion & equaly ancient local customs. There ARE no equal rights for the women there & we can't force it on them just because it makes all the Political Correct, nice polite, couth & cultured & over educated Larte greenies snobs feel all warm & bloody fuzzy.

Leave them to their fate & let nature take it's course. Let the Islamic countries deal with their situation & look after their own. The West should steer well clear of this region of the World.

Leave them to their fate & let nature take it's course......YEAH! RIGHT....that's the common thoughts and the norm-pipe dreams we all pretend to ignore just to make our feeling better about yourselves.

I new thought.....an injection given to all women from what ever time frame or country, which all sex can happen, but NO babies will be produced. The only human on this planet that can wipe us all out, is the human female. if THEY HAVE A BRAIN...AND THEY DO....will understand the love of giving new life......but at what cost? If your a female and you know your child you give life too............Question 1...what future will your child have with NO jobs in sight!
2..Will you be satisfied knowing the child's life will be what we see today.....and don't say.....males are to blame, their in the same vote as all are when it comes to the space-environment-and opportunity that all will face with overpopulation, and its true........both are going to be ignorant to the fact, that the child you both make with the love as is natural to all living things that are in balance with natures LAWS that humans seem to think is doesn't apply to them.

I say......make a global LAW........1 year for breeding.......and five years for doing the wild-thing until the skin gives you a rash, and the high you desire which ever way you want!......but NO BABIES!

The plan is, let the death rate, over ride the birth rate........and all PLUS you......will be here......and the planet can regenerate, and by that time.......true balance with all living things will be here for all to use with the blessings of commonsense.

Push this planet any further, you will have NO home to call home.

Ladies......the world is in your hands.

LEAP

We can no longer put the world up in to sections and say let them die.
Any mass deaths brings mass refugees and even if we wanted to this country could not stop a million boat people.
I am not proposing an American/coalition of the willing intervention.
But a combined world one.
A UN with teeth /laws/a mission to act in the interests and under the rule of every country on these issues.
We surely must try, or be compared to Hitler.
We too must confront because of culture religion, lack of understanding and education these folk do not have the chance to do better yet.
South African head of state, one step out of the caves says aids is not transmitted by sex, that is our problem, not his,we should remove him.
Humanity is one or it is nothing,it is worth short term acts some see as inhuman to get a result that ends production line over population and deaths by starvation.

Belly,
What you are proposing in making the UN a world government, the same as Bob Brown advocated recently. That would make the UN a bigger bureauracy than it now is, wasting more money. The UNHCR is a complete joke.

I completely disagree, each country must have their own sovreinty and paddle their own cannoe. No matter how wrong or backward their thinking we cannot impose our culture or make laws for them. We can only help, educate and assist to bring about family planning, that will lower birthrates. Give incentives by all means.

It has been demonstrated that with assistance and education birthrates can be lowered so that should be the aim.

With its poor track record the UN is not the body to do this and I think it better to bypass the UN and form a coalition of likeminded countries to fund and implement programmes in famine susseptable countries.

I agree that this needs to be done but disagree on how to go about it.

I agree hasbeen

the suggestion for a UN with more authority has been tried in a test model before

it was at that time called USSR

it is all just collectivist idealistic, totally impractical bunkum (but them look who is suggesting it - say no more)

The biggest problem is... it will end up like all the other remote super bureaucracies, with a Hitler - or maybe a Stalin (= Hitler x 3) at its head

It would implement more starvation, as a direct and deliberate government policy - as it was applied ruthlessly in the previous USSR
by Lenin and Stalin and anyone who dared dissent...

well go ask a Hungarian, Czech, Afghan or Chechnyan.... about that

To think, we fought the 50 year cold war for idiots to propose the adoption of the despotism of the losing side....

I would have thought such stupidity must be beyond belief

Quantumleap: ....that's the common thoughts and the norm-pipe dreams we all pretend to ignore just to make our feeling better about yourselves.

Yes, it's a pipe dream. But that's what should happen. When computing first started, many years ago there was a Game that involved keeping a balance in Nature, I forget what it was called. It involved Wolves, Deer, Grasslands, Sunshine & rain & a number of other variables. You had to keep the enviroment in balance, Too many Deer ate all the grass, too many Deer. They got sick & died. Too many wolves, they ate too many Deer, too much grass, Too many wolves. No Deer left. etc. It wasn't an easy game to play. I gave up, it could be won.
This situation in the Horn of Africa isn't a game but the rules are the same. Too many people breeding, Too many Terrorists, no rain, no crops, bad sufforcating religion. This Game is over. It cannot be won.

Belly: Any mass deaths brings mass refugees.

Does it. It may but it will bring back an equilibrium to the area. If we don;t let nature take it's course then we are to blame for compounding the problem. The millions of people that will be starving in the future event will be our fault.

The over educated Larte Greenies in their designer suits sitting around the coffee shop discussing situations like this are comparing their lifestyle with these peoples. Thinking that they are the same. THEY ARE NOT! I can hear you, "Oh, but it should be. We'll just educate them & they'll see that our lifestyle is better. They'll see that it's not nice to sit around in all that yuckky dirt."

It's never gonnna happen. Get you heads out of your ars.. Sorry the sand.

jayb EASE UP!!, if you can continue the rude abrupt posts like that above we are in trouble.
Banjo, truly, you should read others posts before replying.
Communism is evil, it also is dead.
One world government is just not going to work now at least.
We may end up with it by degrees I fear it right or left.
Stay with me.
Do we want to control world population growth.
Do we wish to improve/stop starvation world wide
Is it a good idea to remove all dictators war lords and family dynasty's running whole country's.
Can making country's safe and habitable stop people wanting to become refugees.
How then do we do it.
Put it in the hands of todays failed heads of state? continue making some rich with our aid.
Hold a sing along on every street corner put half the money in to our pocket and send the rest to buy starving kids a milk shake.
Or COMBINED world governments, put LAWS and controls in place methods and army to police and do the work needed.
Civilian governments trained to introduce own governments in those country's.
Humanity is constantly changing and improving.
We can do better in time will, but now we can do it without a bigger dictator making us do it.

Belly: if you can continue the rude abrupt posts like that above we are in trouble.

Sorry Belly Er.. everyone. Was it the head in the sand or let nature take it's course that has upset you?

It's just that all those in favor of "Save all the people." have formed that view because they are oversensitive, Queenstreet Conversationalists. They look around at their own enviroment & imagine that, that is how these people normally live & now they are living in squallor. They can't get their head around that these people live in squallor of their own making period. They like to live like that, that's their custom. The Kindness & help been given to them is exsabating the matter. I know it makes these Larte types feel good, seeing the Aid get through, but it's just posponing the ineveitable.

Sorry, have to say this GY, this bloke is one reason I am doing my best to be better.
In my two weeks away from this section of the forum I posted in articles, look always felt it was not for us down here, that maybe I was unwanted there.
Came into conflict, with this poster and another, seems a few think me being openly an ALP supporter makes me Communist/Marxist/Leninist/trash.
I am center unity ALP those insulting tags, well insult me and those who use them.
We saw intervention, I informed GY I had banned myself for life from that section, not for us Lefty's.
This poster likes to insult, a thing I have grown weary of.
Just made an attempt to stop the fall in to gutter sniping one another.
For OLO sake can we agree to put each other on the ignore list,first one to slur at the other is the weaker ok?
Thread? any chance at all man can except we must change the way we fail on these issues and look for answers.

Belly,
You said, on page 5, "A UN with teeth /laws/a mission to act in the interests and under the rule of every country on these issues.
We surely must try, or be compared to Hitler"

That is what i was refering to, so I did read your posts and what you are proposing here is a world government and that I disagree with.

Jayb,
If you take your contention of 'let nature take its course' through to its logical conclussion, we would never have developed antibiotics or vacines, nor mended badly broken limbs or created other medical advances. Advances in most humen endeavours would not have taken place. Horses would not even have been used for transport.

If we know of a current adversity and we can help them we will do so, but there are some people who give thought to how to prevent such from reoccuring in the future, as well.

Or does your contention of non-intervention only apply to third world countries?

Banjo;
I don't think anyone suggests that medical drugs etc should not
be made available. Food is different, the land has to provide that but
if the land cannot support the people then there has to be less people.
So if aid supports them this time when the next drought comes then
more people will need support.
They did not take advantage of the last drought to reduce their
population so should we go around the loop again ?
Each time around the loop they become starved by less severe droughts
because there are more mouths than last time around the loop.

Over the centuries they should have adapted to their land.
Why didn't they ? Many other peoples in other lands have.

Bazz,
Read my posts on this thread and then google 'family planning in Iran' read that, then come back and dispute what I say.

Banjo we are not far apart I hate and fear one world government.
I fear it most, because some, left and right want it and because it in my view will one day be sold and or forced on us.
My new UN was to be just a tool not the government.
My reason for veto being only if 40% said so was USA Russia China currently can veto good deeds.
In my new UN I saw world governments together putting both men military and civilians cash and laws the majority of humans agreed to in place.
And a closely controls UN doing the work
first draft of my plan
Birth control
2 children per house hold ONLY
it gets down to this we are not helping feeding but letting the new borns die every ten years.
Standing by and letting them die is no option.
It may in no way look like my idea but we can do better fearing change is no answer.

If we look at this thread,many others too, we will see how hard it is to find answers.
I recommend we read every post, in fact all the time, some great ideas come from any poster.
Some, just look at the users logged in we never see posts from, may only come to chuckle at us.
But I would like to see more brain storming, less fear of change more understanding of the related impacts of acting or not acting.
Well past my use by date but not ready to surrender I want this and the next generation to be innovative, not to be afraid of change to look at improving every thing we do.
I now, predict this, humanity will not except change in these areas we debate quick enough, change will be forced on us,and some of it will be bad.
Power respects only power we could insist on being part of change but are too isolated to care.
We live increasingly insular lives big screen TV entertainment centers within our own walls.
And take it for granted she will be all right, some other silly bugger will do it.
We have lost the will to be community's.
For every death in Africa, every starving child another is born maybe soon two maybe already.
I just do not except we humans should not look for better.
If say Hendra Virus transfered to humans tonight, and in two weeks a third of our population was dead.
Would we ask for or expect help from the UN.

Now I lay the thread to rest.
Most of us did not try to find answers.
I fear most visitors, from any other country's who read our posts.
See we really are a weird mob us Aussies.
Do not judge us on this thread, its seeming lack of concern, we are not Representative.
Our country, much like America, is at war with its self, over bad government and worse opposition.
THERE! got my plug in! my party lead by the wrong person, propped up by self interest not my party's is in power.
We forget, every single one of us, that no party no government is always right always wrong for that matter.
And some, from the kids cubby house high in a tree, forget they too, get it wrong.
It would startle me! if just a couple ever got it right.
No we Australians do care put a dieing child in any set of arms and see us cry.
But we content ourselves with its only them, it their fault, fairy tails to, stop us addressing the fact death is no way to reduce world population.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/fixing-famine-what-it-will-take-20110815-1iu0f.html
I saw no answers,little to base hope on, but it can be seen this problem gets worse not better.

Belly,

Have a gander at this.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-08-15/shocking-conditions-of-patients-in-wa-pilbara-pm/2840302

Yes thank you I saw it,shuddered at it and know how we fail.
I think we fail to even begin to understand.
See it was part of my job to look after some of these folk at work.
People will tell you they are drunk do not kept themselves and any homes clean, and that is true, lets be honest.
People will say they will not try, but how can they.
HOSPITAL! you and I can find a bed in most, even be put up while staying with a loved one.
No excuses.
Some one needs sacking, the world needs to see this on every front page.
Just a thought, Poirot , is it ever right.
Do we spend to fix our problem but ignore Africa's?
These folk eat/have social welfare are not starving but dieing a death by lifestyle.

Belly,

I think this problem goes deeper than mere "spending" which so far hasn't even dented the disparities between Aboriginal and mainstream Australia.
It's extraordinary, don't you think, that those pictures are so reminiscent of camps in east Africa, and yet the situation is unfolding in "boom region" Australia.
No I don't think we should ignore the plight of struggling populations overseas because we acknowledge similar problems on our own doorstep. But we fail by not addressing the fundamental realities in the lives of these people....why didn't someone have the vision to construct a hostel in conjunction with the new gleaming hospital?

Poirot lets both look at this together.
How well do you personally know Aborigines? do you understand their shyness when away from their people.
The love of family that is all embracing, the culture that forces them to share.
Are you aware such camps exist all over this country.
That often they are drinkers camps, people not wanted in mainstream Aboriginals homes.
Did you see that loverly lady on ABC National today? standing up for them her people?
By saying much the same as most from within, Noel Pierson for a start.
Do you think in any way these folk would consider dieing in Africa in exchange for those suffering? did you see 29.000 kids died I think in a month.
White trash, may be rich but trash describes them,take the jobs and money spent on the industry this country has turned our first people in to.
Schools Poirot get rewarded if the kids stay uneducated and in trouble.
We need change, us whites, we need to build such housing, but Poirot we need too to tell Australia the truth.
That housing has been built often and ends up as fire wood on fires lite by drunks who know no better.
That some sleep out side their new home's in such camps by choice.