It would appear that there is clear evidence from cabinet papers that Julia Gillard pushed Kevin Rudd into not only ditching the ETS, but into following an emission reduction path that excluded a carbon tax or ETS and closely resembles Abbott's direct action plan.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/newspoll-delivers-a-slight-warming-to-carbon-tax-chill/story-fn59niix-1226101187792

The change of heart would appear to have nothing to do with "economic reform" or saving the planet, but more to do with saving her prime ministership by forming an alliance with the greens.

This further example of deceit shows that any trust of Julia Gillard is completely misplaced.

I think if those who do not agree with you stop posting in your threads only a few posts would be in them.
You get a dishonorable mention for this one, must have a room full by now.
Yet not as uninformed and, well leave that, as Rechtubs one informing every Australian Labor Party voter should be ashamed.
In support of Tony, the man who said only his scripted words could be believed.
Who says daily climate change is crap/real/questionable, who lies almost every time his mouth opens you use this?
Gillard did not get her wants past the Cabernet, are YOU to hold your party ALL its members for failed attempts to change policy.
Are you going to highlight Turnbull fell by one vote because half your party shared his view.
Do you demand of Labor we never change our mind but ignore your tribe never make up theirs?
SM you my Friend undermine your own party by constantly reminding the world you are a mirror image of it, no policy no pride and no ideas.

Belly,

I guess the ferocity of your attack on me is because you have no answer to the extent of Juliar's backflip and deceit.

Lets review.

Juliar indicated that she reluctantly took the post of PM on the request of the Labor caucus - Lie, she actively canvassed the caucus for support to overthrow Rudd.

Juliar promised that she would not impose a carbon tax. - Lie

Juliar claimed that she had always been for a carbon tax. - Lie,

Juliar said that she would never send refugees to a country that was not a signatory to the UNHCR: - Lie

Etc etc.

This tax has nothing to do with her determination to do the right thing and has everything to do with retaining her grasp on power.

Belly:>> I think if those who do not agree with you stop posting in your threads only a few posts would be in them. You get a dishonorable mention for this one, must have a room full by now.
Yet not as uninformed and, well leave that, as Rechtubs one informing every Australian Labor Party voter should be ashamed.<<

SM, you are correct, Belly you have no response to this fact.

Belly you are correct, Rechtub is the one who should be ashamed, I know of some that are calling for the sterilization of Labor and Green voters. I have argued that it is in the spin rather than in the genes but to no avail, they want them sterilized for our nations future.....just kidding.

Gentlemen, only being nice, thanks SM throws rubbish about at will ,not much less SOG but my comments?
Rechtub is working with what he has got,I doubt he understands how ofensive it was.
SOG you understand,but seem to consider only your thoughts have Merritt.
Shallow Minister, go to your post history, hit on the little red man under your post.
Be careful, do not trip over the word lie it is part of your make up to call our prime minister a lier.
Now focus.
Ok? breathing here is a little hard, still think my post defamed you?
Was overly protective of my party.
Mate
1 right or wrong, I just can not change it, some very good balanced conservatives post here, you are not one of them.
My minds eye has you imprinted in it, HONEST! Abbott Pyne two Bishops Joice, and you, side by side Carnival clowns heads turning endlessly mouths open.
If it was only me,then I would be humbled but SM you earn every dishonorable mention you ever get.

SM:>> example of deceit shows that any trust of Julia Gillard is completely misplaced.<<

SM and Belly my china, Schadenfreude is a German term that describes a pleasure derived from viewing the misfortunes of others. There is no equivalent in any other language.

I have been searching for a term that describes one who feels no shame and no remorse over personal failures and collateral damage, one who then relentlessly continues to drive towards satisfying their own ends discounting the needs of others, I could not come up with one, but the dictionary describes them as sociopaths.

Is Gillard a sociopath? She admits to no culpability; she listens to no one unless she absolutely must, her personal circumstance rather than her moral compass govern the validity of what comes out of her mouth. You know sociopaths do not all go on to become mass murderers or indeed criminals of any description, they live next to us. Here is a list of ways to identify a sociopath. This list is from "Profile of a Sociopath."

• Glibness/superficial charm
• Manipulative and conning
• Narcissism, grandiosity (self-importance not based on achievements)
• Pathological lying
• Lack of remorse, shame or guilt
• Shallow emotions
• Incapacity for love
• Need for stimulation
• Callousness/lack of empathy
• Poor behavioral controls/impulsive nature
• Irresponsibility/unreliability
• Lack of realistic life plan/parasitic lifestyle
• Does not perceive that anything is wrong with them
• Conventional appearance
• Unable to feel remorse or guilt
• Narcissism, grandiosity (self-importance not based on achievements)
• May state readily that their goal is to rule the world

Don’t get angry Belly, I am just asking is it possible. We all exhibit these behaviors, but at some point in the face of failure after failure the non sociopath stops and starts again. Those that consider their failures as partial victories towards their vision regardless of others views and situations are sociopaths. I would look at Kev as well.

Sonofgloin,I think you have described Juliar to a T.She and Labor have to go and we cannot wait 2 yrs.

Juliar indicated that she reluctantly took the post of PM on the request of the Labor caucus - Lie, she actively canvassed the caucus for support to overthrow Rudd.

Firstly SM, irrespective of how strong your feelings may be on a particular policy or policys- to call the Prime Minister of Australia Juliar ( over& over again) is very disrespectful- not even so much of the woman but Australia. It also gives us some insight of the alternative government and you*

Its neither an intelligent or very nice picture . Its equally as tacky to keep using the word LIED- Try mislead when debating politics because people be more prepared to listen.

Its just as well Rudd's gone & we need him gone as Trade Minister too.

*would not impose a carbon tax. -*

Everybody else in AU understands she has not got full control & that came with greens- why cant you?

*she had always been for a carbon tax. * Actually she took a policy to Tony well before the elections- HE knocked it back!

*she would never send refugees to a country*

So what- 24 hrs in politics is a lifetime- things change. Stronger ties with Malaysia is SMART- very!

Regardless of whose elected it will make little difference. So guys grow your veggies be nice to a stranger.

btw glad to see your ok belly - did wonder

So how is "an alliance with the Greens" different from "an alliance with the Nats"?

The Libs have never won a National election in their own right and Abbott was bending over backwards to give the independents the same promises if they would give him the PM job.

I guess it came down to which leader THEY trusted more and going by Abbotts tendency to be erratic and inconsistent, they probably made the right choice.

As for "mandates", although Howard won more seats during the 2001 election, Beazley won more primary votes than him so what's so different now? Just the number of seats in dispute to form a majority and back then it was all "core" and "non-core" promises.

I'm not interested in what Abbott's NOT going to do as much as what he WILL do but we won't know that until an election is called.

Meanwhile he changes like the wind and remains as elusive. He might be doing OK now but he'll have to put up something convincing in the next couple of years to maintain it, no matter how much media bias he manages to enjoy.

heads turning endlessly mouths open.
Belly,
great description, how many mirrors did you use when you saw that ?

individual,

You seem to be quite vocal in your criticism of posters who resort to ridicule on your "Answer the question" thread - and yet you appear to regularly indulge in that practice yourself - perhaps you're the one who ought to look in the mirror.

Belly,

<< I think if those who do not agree with you stop posting in your threads only a few posts would be in them.>>

Spot on, if those of a different opinion can band together and refuse to engage with those who disagree with you, it might be possible to stifle the debate you don’t wish to have.

As a “call to arms” this is a brilliant strategy, censorship is also the last refuge of a failing ideology.

Congratulations on sticking to the plan and be grateful to all those who have failed before you through the lack the substance to debate.

Dear wobbles,

Thank goodness somebody can post without name calling. Look I won’t stay in this thread very long because its already for me lost any credibility.
People exchanging personal insults . We are not ten!.

You asked wobbles= * So how is "an alliance with the Greens" different from "an alliance with the Nats"?*

Now that is something I can help you with. Mr Warren Truss and the differences between the two parties. Deary me wobbles, on second thoughts i might be around for a while longer because i will answer that in detail. I didn’t vote ALP ( never have in my life) but i agree with what you saying about Abbott.

Wobbles said,
#I'm not interested in what Abbott's NOT going to do as much as what he WILL do but we won't know that until an election is called.#

That’s 100% correct. Hes got no policies. All hes doing is running around calling the PM names. No gentleman does that. We do want our PM if hes a man to be gentleman. Women don’t like him. He instead of showing leaderships is behaving like a nasty school girl.

She our Prime Minister is miles ahead of him in her behaviour alone. Her policies are out there whether people like them- or not. Where are his?

“”I guess it came down to which leader THEY trusted more and going by Abbotts tendency to be erratic and inconsistent, they probably made the right choice.###

Yes wobbles I think your right. As far as people go I prefer her to him and given hes has zip policies- yep i would do what they did. I think getting closer to Malaysia was a very wise too.
I think her stuff are slack. I think her Agriculture Ministers staff are slack. I think she is being treated badly by some of her own staff because she’s a women.

I will tell you about the Nats next time.

“”So how is "an alliance with the Greens" different from "an alliance with the Nats"?

There is a world of difference!

KA,

Respect is earned, Juliar has through double dealing, deceit and incompetence earned only enmity. And you have hardly held back with regards Abbott.

As for "Everybody else in AU understands she has not got full control & that came with greens- why cant you?" Actually I do understand, and so does everyone else. She had a choice between maintaining a grasp on power or keeping her promise to the voters. Obviously power was more important than integrity.

SOG,

Your review of Juliar as sociopath has merit. I have known second hand car dealers with higher integrity.

Shadow Minister

No I haven't held back at expressing my concerns about Tony Abbott SM but he is not the Prime Minister. If you wish to call our Prime Minister of Australia names- go ahead . My point was people who take politics seriously would probably stop reading even if they dont like her. There is a line you dont cross over.

I think you misunderstand me SM. I am not sticking up for her.

Its an insult to Australia and its people to call our Prime Minister names. It brings our standard down. For if we dont respect ourselves who will respect Australia. That was my meaning nothing more.

As for Tony ( & remember I used to vote libs) he and nobody else is the reason i turn my back on them. Hes intelligent but not very nice. We need both. Allow me to tell you his tactics because i do see through them. Tony is behaving to appeal to the ALP voters. Hes dropped the lib class in other words.

We all know the ALP are the rough ones and he thinks some ALP voters will come to him if he plays in the gutter. Yes I am sure some will. Trouble is hes turning the people who do not like gutter politics away. Personally I dont care - because i am not going to vote for either. Unless our PM supports one of the two bills before parliament to ban live exports. Then- she gets our votes.

Tony is a fool because Indonesian farmers are going bankrupt because of live exports but he cant see if he worked towards reopening plants he would win the job. The fact that he can see that- tells me hes not the right person for the job.

Have a nice day

It is a long time since I had any respect for Political parties; I have never found them to be particularly truthful, nor really intelligent. I went to join a party about thirty years ago and when I was told I would have to sign a promise to agree with the decisions of the majority, I decided I had too much pride in my integrity and was intelligent enough to decide what was right and what was wrong so did not join, and who ever said that the majority of any group was the intelligent ones, I have never found that. If the parties were as intelligent as you people think, why do they keep driving the economy down into a recession, it has happened four or five times over the last twenty years. The recession happens when the top tax is lowered far enough to allow people with uncontrolled incomes to increase their incomes causing higher prices of goods and services and creating bad conditions for many workers and those on a pension. The high tax should be tempered with a Zero tax on about $30,000 today to suit the treasurers requirement of that 30% of GDP. The resources exporting has further expanded the problem, and the reciprocal imports are brought in cheaper and sold cheaper and this is destroying our own manufacturing industries and the income for our workers. The unemployment figure is a farce, because the unemployment figure is only counted on those who have no permanent employment, and certainly does count those who can only get two or three days work a week, a problem which has been happening more and more over the last thirty years.

It is a long time since I had any respect for Political parties; I have never found them to be particularly truthful, nor really intelligent. I went to join a party about thirty years ago and when I was told I would have to sign a promise to agree with the decisions of the majority, I decided I had too much pride in my integrity and was intelligent enough to decide what was right and what was wrong so did not join.
If the parties were as intelligent as you people think, why do they keep driving the economy down into a recession, it has happened four or five times over the last twenty years.
The recession happens when the top tax is lowered far enough to allow people with uncontrolled incomes to increase their incomes causing higher prices of goods and services and creating bad conditions for many workers and those on a pension.
The high tax should be tempered with a Zero tax on about $30,000 today to suit the treasurer’s requirement of that 30% of GDP.

KA,

I don't confuse Julia Gillard with Australia, and don't believe that she as a person deserves any more respect as a person because she has wriggled her way back into power.

As for Abbott, he is smart, and as a Rhodes scholar has worked out that as opposition leader, he can play nicely, allow Juliar to govern with no consideration to the liberals, and fade into obscurity. Or, he can actively and vociferously expose every weakness of the labor party and its policies.

He has actively followed the second route, and the incompetence of Labor is held to the light again and again. Irrespective of the negative tag that labor has painted him with, he has achieved roughly double the popularity of the milder, policy driven Turnbull, and is now equal with the prime minister.

There is an old saying, "if you can't win, then make your opponent lose." In 18 months Abbott has turned Rudd's record primary rating to Juliar's record low rating.

Poirot,
Look a little more closely & you'll find that I'm merely mirror echoing when someone gets dirty. Blame the source, not the result.

indiviual,

Fair enough. We all get involved in a little smart-arsed tit-for-tat occasionally - but you seemed to be implying that you were above that.

SOG do not hold back mate, I will not, and do not expect you to.
So here it is,I have given up on you, look no doubt you are far brighter than some, but I just see what you post.
So no need to answer your diatribes, doubt, you are any type of Socialist, true, see Germany's ww 2 Socialism in you.
Rechtubs comment was ofensive, but gee honestly I doubt he knows that.
Shadow Minister? come on be honest,it is like debating with a brick wall, lots of mindless graffiti nothing worth reading.
Now for INDIVIDUAL! my mate.
I read every post in your thread, from you it wasMonty Python like.
Mate YOU FIRST years ago, called every non conservative voter a TRAITOR.
Be happy to know it and one thousand insults are here in your post history.
We GY maybe unable to comment, would all be on record at the Office Of National Assessment.
As we should be, our country needs to know who some of us are.
I dare not say who should be on that list.
But I was, in 1975 as An ALP activist ,they told me so.
I once again, say this threads title is not the truth in use.

Whom leaked? Maybe it was hacked, you never know.

If the story is true, do you know the context.

The PM has shown she is able to think outside the square.

It could be seen as getting something through and taking the heat out of climate change. It would have left Mr. Abbott with little to say.

It could have be seen as a beginning, to be added to later on.

No ones knows where Mr. Abbott's proposal goes after 2020.

It could have been a worthwhile option.

Politics is the art of the possible. Circumstances mean that one cannot always do as they wish. If you cannot get your policy through parliament, you have achieved nothing.

You could be right, the PM changed her mind, as circumstances changed. The PM is now able to get the policy though in a way more to her liking.

The truth is that many on this site read into everything, misconceptions that fits in with their dislike of the PM.

The truth is that their obsession, which in some cases is near hate, that colours everything the PM has done, is doing or will do in the future.

“.....It seems to me that Gillard’s statement that “those matters reported today have no veracity or truthfulness to them” leaves little wriggle room. But is it all that important if she did suggest that strategy? If so it doesn’t add up to an endorsement of Abbott’s policies. At the time the Gillard paper was supposedly written, did Abbott have an articulated policy? ....And there is no reason to assume that Abbott’s policies would have been adopted unchanged by Labor.”..

...Jeremy Thompson’s write-up for ABC Online sees the affair wholly through the eyes of Tony Abbott....... Will the ABC update it tomorrow? Possibly not as it will be yesterday’s news.
..Jeremy Thompson’s write-up for ABC Online sees the affair wholly through the eyes of Tony Abbott. OK, ..it was written before the radio National PM item went to air. Will the ABC update it tomorrow? Possibly not as it will be yesterday’s news....

http://larvatusprodeo.net/2011/07/26/gillard-always-wanted-a-price-on-carbon/

"I don't confuse Julia Gillard with Australia, and don't believe that she as a person deserves any more respect as a person because she has wriggled her way back into power."

KA, according to the Constitution, the PM government is legit.

The PM obtained her position as leader of Labor by the vote of the caucus. The caucus had lost confidence in Mr. Rudd.

This has happened to one other leader PM that comes to mind. The illustrious Mr. Menzies lost confidence of his cabinet in his pre-war two government and was deposed.

We are losing civility in this country if we cannot show respect to our elected officials.

This has nothing to do with what we think of them personally and whether we dislike their policies.

There should be no place for hate in our society.

Hate is unnecessary and a dangerous. Look at Norway, a country that is proud of their open political system

Flo et al,

You are all being a little precious. Compared to the hate and vitriol I saw posted against Howard, I am a rank amateur. However, I am prepared to give you an award for the greatest understatement I have seen in a while: "the PM changed her mind, as circumstances changed"

I can just imagine in the Lodge: "Tim what shoes should I wear, the blue or the red", Tim - "The red matches your hair, and why don't you try the carbon tax for a change." JG "That's a great idea, It goes well with the greens outfit, and the Bob brown bag."

Shadow Minister,
I dont really care because both sides have zero talent. No experience in the areas they need to write policys on.

I spoke at length with your buddy's office today and they admit they have only 3 people- with zip experience. Nobody understands the ag industry. Claims no $..?

I am its not just speaking of ag either. They have an adviser Richard no idea of the industry. Ego wont listen. Tonys problem is he keeps rushing around to Church based radio stations etc but no time to talk with public or groups.

Anyway, lets see what happens. BTW are we awake yet?. These polys that only talk with one lot of groups. Dont u think its a bit sus the ALP greens and indos went for a bill to ban live exports in 3 years.? Wow isn't that funny thats just what the Indonesian Gov told us they wanted. When polys stop doing deals with just one or two of us- THEN we can get results.

That goes for green & ALP back benchers too! Especially them

Maybe I am being precious but I do not recall the level of hate and personal insults aimed at Mr. Howard to the levels we see today against the present PM.

The real point is that this type of hate and abuse has reached levels that do not credit anyone.

It is time that we all looked at ourselves and ask what is the abuse and hate achieving.

No one can claim that debating the issues is not more productive that attacks the man/woman.

Flo

Thank you

Flo,

Sorry, I hit the wrong button. For whats its worth I think by the time the elections come round carbon tax will be old hat.
I reckon by the Christmas we will have a fair idea of which way things will go- one way or the other.

If ALP dont back the bill to faze live exports within three years put up by Xenophon NOR back the greens bill for a instant ban they certainty wont be in Government the next term. Now given you do not know me I should put my hand up right now and tell you I am often posting about banning this vile trade. However Flo, thats not what i am basing it on.
Fact is the industry are unfairly not going to vote for her despite the fact its resumed).

That leaves her with the hundreds of thousands who insisted ALP ban it. They are NOT happy its resumed but waiting until the inquiry & the bills going forward.
I hear ALP are not backing it. Which simply means she wont get the peoples vote. Greens wont be happy- & maybe do a deal with Tony.

The greens put ALP in and they are free to deal with others for the next one. Greens are just as determined as I am to see it banned.
ALP got bad advise because now they have upset all sides.
She needs to support the bill if ALP want to stay in power

ALP KNEW that was one of Greens main policys and - goodnight to you.

Flo I do remember,

I also remember the very effective scare campaign run by labor with regards work choices, the very tactics that Abbott is now using to devastating effect.

Shadow Minister

For once we agree. It was just what we needed and Howard knew it !

Here's proof that Julia really is sweet.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-07-27/sculions-cake-for-gillard/2812506

Belly>> SOG do not hold back mate, I will not, and do not expect you to. So here it is,I have given up on you,<<

I don't care what you say to me Belly, if you were drowning then I'm swimming towards you mate, even though we may go in different directions on shore. Our views are love/hate but I respect the man your folks raised you to be.

Poirot, gotta love the Territorians.

I stand behind what I said, as this government has gone from one stuff up to another and some of you just can't admit they are wrong.

I must s ay though, according to the polls, at least some of you have seen the light.

Talk about direct action,have a look at this.
http://ozunited.createsend1.com/t/r/l/trtyhkt/oidjjtkyk/t/

aimed at Mr. Howard to the levels we see today against the present PM.
Flo,
that just means he upset fewer people to a lesser degree.