Joe Ludwig, the Politicians, Cattlemens Association and ALL producers and exporters of Live Cattle (and Sheep) should today be hanging their
combined heads in shame, after last night`s Four Corners video dealing with the depths of cruelty used in the slaughter of our cattle in Indonesia, and in many other Muslim countries!

This abject cruelty, which has been occurring since the Live Export Trade started in Australia, should now be terminated by the implementation of a total cessation of the export of live animals to these foreign countries, whose meat industry insists on "their version" of Halal slaughter methods (invoking mass cruelty) simply to satisfy their religious requirements!

I was so enraged at the abject cruelty employed by these workers in the sub-stanadard conditions, the way that they kicked, gouged and virtually tortured those poor creatures, before finally sawing through their necks as they screamed with pain for minutes after, that I could have willingy taken a gun and shot each one of those callous "monkeys" who were committing those terrible acts of brutality on those poor defenceless animals!

After watching that video I have decided that never again will I be involved in the breeding of cattle that may one day be unlucky enough to be exported to the death pits of Indonesia.

I became further enraged and disgusted when I realized that we are sending millions of dollars in Foreign Aid to these barbarians who practice their extremist Sharia religous methods upon our cattle, and at the same time wonder how easy they would find cutting off the heads of anyone that they may consider an unbeliever?

The easiest way to solve this problem is to simply cut off ALL live animal trade to Indonesia ( and all other Muslim countries) and deny them access to residency here in our country, so that they cannot indulge their primitive religous practices and demand their Mosques and Halal foods which place them at odds with the established Australian community!

A total ban on ALL Live Exports and the whinging farmers and cattle producers and exporters can "suck it up!"

*and deny them access to residency here in our country, so that they cannot indulge their primitive religous practices*

Your hysteria without knowledge kind of says it all, Crackup.

The Koran actually prescribes that Muslims be kind to animals. If
not all are doing so, then address that issue.

Just yesterday there was a story about the mayor of Tatiara, IIRC,
being massively cruel to sheep. Every day we hear reports of pet
owners abusing pets. Do we ban all pet ownership or the running of
sheep, because some get it wrong?

The 4 corners report was indeed disgusting and those sorts of practices
should not be tolerated. There are 100 meatworks in
Indonesia, if 3 get it wrong, or even if MLA haven't done enough,
then improve on that. Banning the livetrade would be shooting
yourself in the foot. Those boats will simply load in Brazil.

Whilst Australia is active in these markets, Australia can have
an influence on changing behaviour and improve animal welfare in
these regions. Shut the trade and we lose that ability. Indonesia
has 12 million cattle of their own, don't you care about their
welfare?

Given that we spend 4 billion$ a year on foreign aid, some of those
funds could easily be used to improve animal welfare, not just farmer
levies, as is mostly the case now.

I am fully aware that this debate will raise alot of emotions, but
the solutions are about well thought out reason, not hysteria.

Crackup, all those people who were ignorant of, surprised by or have to be informed about reality by 4 Corners should hang their heads in shame.

What planet do you live on for pity’s sake?

It is brutal, live exports should stop, brutality goes on here, it goes on in countries that have no regard for humans let alone animals, Kosher slaughter is little different and don’t ever accept an invite to a celebration of anything in a third world village.

The late arrival of self righteous indignation on such issues reflects a life of self imposed absentia from the real world.

the way we brutalize the unborn shows why we should not be surprised. All cultures and beliefs are equal though acording to many.

If any of you were at all absorbent of the information
that you read on this Forum, you should be aware that
this is not my first indication of "self-righteous
indignation" regarding the subject of animal cruelty,
and I might retaliate by stating that your typical
attitude of blustering pomposity are typical of the
attitude of the many who prefer to turn a blind eye
to the problem, rather than oppose vehemently it`s
horrendous continuation!

Unless people stand up and be counted, by making their
feelings known to the perpetrators of these hideous
crimes, then it will continue forever, as it has continued
so far, because of the public`s waning interest in an
issue that is all to easily hidden away from the public view.

It cannot and should not be condoned, or continued as it is
now, and no amount of ridiculing this subject will ever make
it right in the eyes of the caring and considerate members
of our community.

If it means loss of trade for the country and loss of income
for the "co-conspiritors" of this inhumane practice in
legalised barbarism, then so be it,....at least we could then
object to all other acts of cruelty eg: whale slaughter, seal
and dolphin slaughter with a clear conscience, instead of
peddling the double-standards that seem to be inherent in our
current Government`s policies on many aspects of wildlife
preservation and protection!

As I said before, if you do NOT like my opinion on this subject....Suck it up!

Wooh hoo. Fiesty.

spindoc, this is groundhog day for me, as I basically just did the same routine to Belly about the missing Indian children.

runner,

you'll note that when abortion is performed due to another culture's ideal for a male breadwinner for the family 9(re India), then it suddenly becomes abhorrent to the moral relativists. I suggest if you talk about Indian feticide, then you have a flood of support, but when you talk about Western abortions for lifestyle reasons, then it is a different matter.

I maintain that the reason is irrelevant, either abortion is ok or it isn't. Not being a woman, I don't really have to deal with such a situation, so I find it hard to judge. But I'm all for consistency.

I will sign off by saying that on all matters husbandry, Yabby holds the authority in my book.

Are you a vegan BTW Crackcup? Just wondering.

Thanks yabby well said, crack up blames me for his threads not taking off.
I rather think it is statements like that that are the problem.
The film was awful every farmer who saw it would think so.
Australia has for some time, educated and paid for better facility's to stop such treatment.
It is not within the Muslim faith to kill this way.
Australia's biggest Halal abattoir said today he would be sacked if it happened here.
Now it is wrong, better ways must be found.
Australia is training these people, has done so in Egypt.
If we stop trading /improving will this stop.
Will the cattle from another country be killed in any better way.
Do our suffering cattle know they are Australian.
And as it costs $700 to process one head in our abattoirs, and they could only be killed under Muslim law.
Can we bank on selling killed cattle.
What if they are left to die in our paddocks, along with the farmers.
Are we better for demanding change, paying for it,or should we just tell people in their own country's we are xenophobic.
, how much can we rely on this film,for less than the price of one beast I almost believe those idiots could be bribed to act so badly.
How many, come now,ever saw animals die after waiting in line in ANY meat processing place.
Death is unkind but this was awful find a way to see the sheep waiting in line near you but find also answers not pure bigotry.

Given the amount of whining about even the remote possibility that we may eventually pay more for electricity, what will happen when we suddenly have to pay more for meat, once this export business is stopped.

Let's revisit the human misery that results from those overseas sweatshop and mining industries that exist simply to maintain our own standard of living, which is still not high enough for many.

Not so long ago those speaking out against live exports were seen as a bunch of tree-hugging bleeding-heart greenies but apparently seeing it in your own lounge room somehow makes it real.

This is not a sudden revelation - it has been going on for a decade and it was actually Warren Truss who funded those "humane" boxes and also chose to look the other way.

Crackcup
You are a co-conspirator for not paying for those animals to be slaughtered as you would like.

I have visited abbatoirs and seen sheep and cattle being killed, none of it is pretty. I have killed for my own meat and had to put down animals that I cared for and it is tough.

The scenes shown on 4 corners were bad and i expect that the MLA thought they could change practices before now. Maybe they should set up our own abbitoirs in Indonesia as we have set up the feed lots, to ensure humane handling. Or accept that is the culture and pull out to find other markets for our beef.

Religious and cultural practices and almost impossible to change. Their killing methods are the same as they were a thousand years ago.We have been trying to educate some groups here about FGM for nearly 2 decades and yet the incidence is increasing. I am now thinking we should just stop bringing these people here. That will not stop girls in other places having FGM done to them and if we stop sending our cattle to Indonesia, other cattle will suffer the same fate.

It is confronting to see it on film and so would be film of girls having FGM done to them. Wobbles is right, keep it in perspective and remember all the other human misery that goes on in the world. KIds sold into slavery, in mines and brothels. Womwen having to see their babies starve and so on.

Nobody should have been unaware that the killing methods did not occur but I guess there are some that think milk comes in cartons and meat is already packed in plastic and are shocked to see a mother suckling her baby. It is a reality check for some.

You know they use pesticides on vegetables. NO ONE, is innocent, even vegans. ;o)

Why is it that the "apologists" keep on harping that
this is a new reaction to an old problem and that we
who oppose it are newcomers whom you consider have
been unaware that this bastardry has been going on?

As I have said before, many are aware and have been
aware of the cruelty issue employed right across the
animal farming spectrum,and the only time that I can
remember when any real action to constrain or prevent
further exposed cruelty was taken was way back in the
QueenslandCannon Hill Saleyards issue, during the
late 1950`s!

This lack of any real action to the contain the element
of cruelty is indicative of a greedy, self-serving
industry that considers itself to be above the laws of
humanity, blinded as are many by the almighty dollar!

Belly, IMHO Crackup's post is typical of those who use OLO to vent
their frustrations. But all emotion and no reason is equally dangerous.

The whole live export debate has been going on for years, but I think
this time, MLA were caught with their pants down. Perhaps they need
extra funding or they need to hire some extra talent, to do their
job a bit better.

But cruelty is everywhere, it is a constant battle to minimise it.
Right here in WA, our own Dept of Conservation shut down the water
supply on a number of old stations. Any animals left around died of
thirst. Hardly pleasant. That from a Govt dept.

The thing is, AA are an animal rights group with serious money behind
them, who want to shut down the live trade at any cost. They don't
seem to like meat eaters too much either. Why did they not present
this footage to MLA some months ago? The aim is to use the publicity
to shut the trade down, one way or another.

Yet we know that there are some modern abbatoirs in Indonesia, some
use stun guns. We know that livestock are slaughtered in Australia
too using stun guns and still producing halal meat.

I am all for improving animal welfare in the third world. But farmers
levies alone can't do it. What about some of that 4 billion $ we
already spend on aid, to assist with introducing humane slaughter?

All that it seems, is not on the AA agenda. Most vegans would
prefer to shut most livestock farmers down too

First and foremost, these are not "rogue" operators, this is a view of what is required for "Halal" preparation - the beast must be prostrated in order to die from exsanguination (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exsanguination) which is required in order that the meat be Halal. The whole system sounds great until you see it in action, in order to get a full grown beast to stand still while it's throat is cut is no easy process.

For all those wringing their hands in horror - this is what comes of successive Government's destroying our Meatworks in favor of "live export" - put simply, it is cheaper to get the beasts shipped overseas and killed by Indonesian slaughterman than it is to pay Australian's to do the work. Thus the cruelty you see (and the job losses you don't).

The crocodile tears from the Cattle Industry are just that, they'd prefer to pocket the extra money just as soon as you all look away again. No Australian Slaughter-house/Meatworks would be allowed to operate with that level of cruelty - yes, the animal ends up just as dead, that is true. However, the animal is not subjected to cruelty/torture - if Halal preparation is dictated, it is accomplished on animals that have already been rendered unconscious by the equivalent of a .22 caliber strike to the head.

I've worked on a slaughter floor, I'm horrified to see the cruelty in these pictures. Stop the live export trade.

MLA say they are making progress with regards to training these rouges.

Boy, they must have been cruel 10 years ago!

It's a joke that has been going on for far to long and should be stopped immediately. To think uour governments have known about this for a decade or more and, tried to sweep it under the rug makes one ashamed to be an aussie.

All in the name of making a buck.

They should stop supply here and now and have a zero tolerance policy.

Conditions;
1. All animals slughtered must be stunned

2. Break this rule and you're history. For ever!

*if Halal preparation is dictated, it is accomplished on animals that have already been rendered unconscious by the equivalent of a .22 caliber strike to the head.*

There ya go, Custard. If you can do that to cattle in Australia,
to prepare halal meat, then you can do the same in Indonesia.
Halal does not have to be cruel. Meatworkers put them selves out of
a job by being so radical and greedy, that they sent farmers broke.

This debate has run here in OLO for years.
Heated, even nasty at times.
Vegans always get into the act and animal cruelty suffers as a result.
As the reality is blurred, this is not Halal. believe me a Muslim killing place in Australia would be closed for this, by both Muslims and us.
Australia wants to introduce stunning,Indonesian laws currently call the device used a weapon and ban it.
This Documentary has done its job, we will see change,a better way of killing cattle there.
No matter what country they come from.
It is blindness to think only religion stands in the way of exporting chilled beef and mutton.
It is costs.
The cost of killing over there is likely to be no more than a tenth of doing it here.
Now us opening abattoirs? using local labour of course, at what cost to those currently employed there.
Let us continue to train them, and to demand better but lets not just stop our farmers making a living, and transferring the trade [cattle still dieing this way] to other country's.
QUESTION [not saying it was wrong] how did ANY CAMERA CREW get inside to see this?

Belly,
No,as i pointed out in my last post,religous and cultural practice is almost impossible to change by education and training. The only way is to either purchasse the existing abbitoirs or build new ones. So we operate them to our standards, only then do we have control. We would have to put in Aussie section managers.

If our meat is better than the local product we will get our market share.

The big population of Indonesia would make it viable.

Banjo sorry mate you are not taking the whole matter in to your considerations.
One this was not never will be Halal killing, Muslims are telling us what we already knew.
Second price is every thing.
Our cattle, unfortunately,are now too expensive for many in that country.
If we open Abattoirs what happens to those in existence now.
Would we close one or 11 of ours to let another country take over the trade?, Indonesia like every country has its pride.
Price,we are content with our sale price Australian live stock exporters fund education,but how much would it cost to build killing places here.
Would Indonesia pay the new inflated costs.
Out current system has been assaulted,this will bring fire in the belly and see training brings results.
Now the world knows I do not want most Muslim migration.
Bigoted ? well so be it, but for the very reasons I do not want it,we must not blindly judge every thing about them in the country they come from.
I since this thread should have matched both near it, gone well past.
But that pure bigotry has stifled the wish to contribute to the hottest story in Australia.
It is dreadful but find answers not panic.

Belly, the answers are quite simple.

Impliment a set of standards as to the treatment of Australian cattle, in both handling and slaughter and have these premises monitored.

Bottom line is, if you wish to slaughter our cattle and sheep or even pigs etc, then you do it humainly, or you go elsewhere.

After all, we are already subsidising these places so there is no reason why we can't oversee what goes on with the use of cctv monitors.

One serious breach, one month ban.

Second breach, one year ban

Third breach, game over.

What seems to have been lost in the fog of this discussion, is
that MLA has in fact started to roll out stunning boxes, using
stun guns, in Indonesia. So far at 5 works, another 5 about to
start. The plan was to continue this roll out, but MLA funds
are limited by grower levies. They could speed things up with
a bit of help.

So my suggestion is this: Speed up the roll out of another 20
or 30 stun gun boxes. Sell the cattle only on condition that
Australian cattle go through those works, who use them. Station
an Australian in Indonesia to oversee that our terms of humane
slaughter are complied with.

Shutting the trade down and trucking cattle to Adelaide, as is
being suggested, is a lose lose situation for everyone, including
the cattle.

The expected and predictable performance has
begun: "Minister Ludwig to SUSPEND shipment of
live cattle to 11 Indonesian abattoirs shown
committing acts of cruelty on the 4 Corners
video on Monday night!"

We have all heard this auditory performance many
times before over the years since the Live Export
Trade in animals began. The problem is that talk
is cheap, but actions speak louder than words!

We need to see genuine efforts by all concerned
in an effort to prevent further cruelty being
inflicted in the name of Overseas Trade.

These issues have in the past simply reverted to
the way it was, once the public indignation and
scrutiny eased, leaving the people falsely thinking
that steps had been taken to rectify the situation,
whilst in truth, the matter had simply been swept
under the carpet, and out of the public view!

Pressure MUST be applied to ensure genuine
action this time around, even if it does mean the
loss of this morally questionable overseas market.

I have noticed that a deathly silence exudes from
the cloisters of the RSPCA and the animal libbers
groups,...maybe this is too big an issue to risk
getting involved and thus risk the wrath of the big
cattle marketers?

Stop Live Export.

Anywhere.

Nothing more need be said.

Dear CC,

I too was horrified at what was shown on the Four Corners program.
To me it all seemed so unnecessary and cruel. Surely there is a
more humane way of dealing with the kiiling of animals - such cruelty is barbaric. RSPCA and other animal welfare organisations in this country should apply pressure on our government to see that this kind of behaviour is stopped and stopped immediately.

belly,
Let me make it quite clear. I was talking about either purchassing existing or building new abbitoirs in INDONESIA. There is no reason our killing cost would be higher than Indonesian owned abbitoirs.

The 4 corners show stated that our meat was preferred by Indonesians because it was better, that would not change. There are some abbitoirs there that do comply with our standards and we could continue to supply them with cattle.

Rehctub,
I think the MLA has tried the training and education way for long enough and should admitt failure. That is why I suggest ownership of the killing works, so we are in total control, with our key personel in charge.

That is the only way we can ensure our standards are met. As an employer you would well know that even under the best supervission, there will still be occasional breaches of your standards by staff, sometimes for the most stupid of reasons. I have witnessed this and no doubt you have also.

*RSPCA and other animal welfare organisations in this country should apply pressure on our government to see that this kind of behaviour is stopped and stopped immediately.*

They are doing that Lexi, but they are proposing the wrong solution.
Shut down the live trade and the law of unintended consequences will
kick in, you will create far more animal welfare issues then
you solved.

Its going to take more then good intentions to solve this one,
more like a deep understanging of all the issues and the implications
involved. There are indeed solutions, but knee jerk reactions are
not going to solve them.

...This thread makes me want to cry out “get yourselves a life”. Where were you when Indonesians slaughtered 185,000 East Timorese during their occupation of East Timor between 1975 and 1999. Those 185,000 were actually “humans”. This lot have no moral boundries.Get in touch with reality.

Dear Yabby,

Thanks for your response and sad as it is you're probably right - kneejerk reactions won't work. What do you suggest will?

Dear Diver Dan,

Where were we when East Timorese people died? Where were you? Why do you feel that someone who feels horror at the torture of animals would not feel the same horror at the deaths of humans? If you need to sling off at somebody - target the guilty, please.

Yabby: "Deep understanding of all the issues and
the implications involved"?

The issues as I see them are simply that the cattle
are bred here in Australia.

The Breeder then sends them to Darwin for loading on
to a Livestock freighter for shipment.

Subject cattle are unloaded in Indonesia (wherever)
and topped-off.

Cattle are then transported to Abattoir of selection.

Slaughter proceeds under primitive conditions, to
acheive and satisfy the barbaric Halal requirements!

What more needs to be said?....except the blood-money
created by this industry, should be put back into
creating a humane slaughter system, with decent human
beings supervising at the point of slaughter.

Building a steel box does nothing more than hide the
atrocities being committed from public view.

I would also mention Yabby, that I am NOT a veggan, nor
am I aligned with any group opposed to this barbarism,
however I have been a cattle breeder, and I have always
treated my cattle as humanely as possible,....but then
being from the old school, I didn`t poison the flesh
of my cattle month after month to bolster the profits
of the chemical companies!

As was stated, it is highly unlikely that we will ever
change the habits of the monkeys on the end of the knives,
so we are left with the only viably humane solution..
...Stop the Live Exports! If they want our meat then
let them eat it chilled or change their religious beliefs!

Crackup, if you watched the start of the documentary, they in fact
showed a short clip of cattle in Indonesia being slaughtered humanely,
using stun guns, all Halal. So far its been introduced in 5 meatworks
there, with another 5 due shortly for conversion.

If anyone can be criticised, it is our own MLA, for not rolling out
more of these facilities earlier. But their funding has been limited.

Nothing is stopping the taxpayer from making a small contribution
and speeding things up.

So your racist assertions that they are all monkeys and that only
we in Australia know how to do things, is flawed by the evidence.
We in Australia commit cruelty to animals every single day. Just
ask the RSPCA.

I remind you that still during my lifetime, livestock were killed
with a knife in many abattoirs in Australia. Some still are.

Why don't you care about Indonesian livestock slaughtered in
Indonesia? Why only Australian livestock?

Spending a tiny share of our 4 billion $ foreign aid budget on
introducing modern slaughter practices in some parts of the third
world, makes perfect sense and millions of animals will benefit,
including animals born in the third world.

Lexi, I did put my suggestion forward, in a previous post

In this case Rechtub I agree totally, in fact almost every thing you ask for is part of the training.
It has failed, but will not again.
In this respect the filming has done a great job.
But again it was done to stop live exports, not to stop cruelty.
It that respect TAKE NOTE of diver Dans contribution.
Banjo, do not give up those Australian farmers about to be harmed greatly did nothing wrong.
Yabby, bloke you are fighting for right, along with informed comments from Rechtub and Diver Dan, hopefully myself you are on the right path.
In the past, you saw it, animal rights lead to some true words wars here.
Some of us truly opposed to any cruelty had to defend our selves often.
The thread is bringing some comments that would see us close this trade, only to see it go else ware, and the cruelty continue.
Life is about getting the best possible out come.
In this case we must stick to it train and demand monitor and change, but not get lost in dislike of a religion and people in another country's way of life.

Yabby,Belly and crew:

There is none so blind as he who cannot see ( or will NOT!)

You insist on side-lining the issue by stating ad nauseum
that this is all about simply stopping the Live Trade!

It is not,....it is ALL ABOUT stopping the CRUELTY that
is inflicted on these animals.

If you choose to use the racial card then so be it!

I call them "monkeys" ( the low-lives on the end of
those knives in the video!)....I am deeply sorry for that
mistake,...monkeys have much more intelligence than those
ingrates that take obvious pleasure in torturing a poor
defenceless animal that is incapable of understanding it`s
horrific pridicament, as it is being kicked and gouged
in an effort to get it to stand ( even with a broken leg!)

I reiterate, if the cruelty CANNOT be stopped then
discontinue the Live Animal Export

Crackup, you played the race card. I simply responded to it.

I am certainly not ignoring the issue of animal welfare, but looking
at the big picture, unlike some, who can't see beyond the tip
of their nose.

Fact is, those shiny new boats will not be scrapped, but source
cattle from Brazil. Then who will worry about livestock welfare
in Indonesia?

Fact is that station cattle produce low value manufacturing
grade meat, they need feedlotting, difficult in the NT. Add the
high costs of operating up there, plus low prices for manufacturing
meat, your meatworks are unviable. Then what?

Fact is that if the price of beef to stations is unviable, they won't
operate. Free roaming cattle would soon become an environmental
problem like free roaming buffaloes, goats and camels.

Fact is there is no good reason why we can't install 20 or 30
modern stun gun kill systems in Indonesia, actively monitor their
use and ensure that Australian cattle go through them. Other
Indonesian meatworks might soon get the drift that if they want
good meat, they might have to change their ways.

MLA have clearly made mistakes. So rectify those mistakes, make
something good come out of all of this, not stick your head in
the sand and create other problems that you haven't even thought
of

Crackcup:

…Keeping this event in context with Indonesia’s long list of atrocities (aided and abetted by the US and overseen by Australia) against its own people, against the people of East Timor and against many thousands killed in West Papua; atrocities perpetrated against animals (as horrifying as it appears on the surface) is insignificant. I think the Australian public need to be wary not to be lead by the nose on this subject; a flavour of the month on ABC television at the moment (NB; Features of “Four Corners” and the “Australian Story”). Who drives this agenda, needs to be questioned.

...All the hypocritical bleating on Animal rights will not be balanced by a decline in tourism to the sorry confines of injustice that Indonesia is. Sorry, but my advice is to grow up, get a life and balance this minor event with the list of horrors the sick country of Indonesia produces, as an ongoing product.

Animal cruelty and particularly live exports are not flavour of the month, the issue has always been around. Programs like 4Corners just bring it out of the cupboard every so often, but there are many people working quietly behind the scenes on these problems all the time. I didn't watch the show, can't watch that sort of stuff at the best of times.

The only way to combat it is to refuse trade or to export frozen meat. If it is so that the Koran is clear about minimising animal suffering why not just kill the meat here then ship. If the meat must be killed halal for religious reasons then those practices can be followed in Australia where there is better governance and a requirement the animal be stunned.

diver dan:

You are a classic example of what I was saying about
side-lining this issue!

Who was even discussing the events that occurred in
East Timor and West Papua,....sounds to me like you
have some sort of axe to grind with that issue, but
please do NOT try to cloud this issue that has little
or nothing to with your meanderings!

You people amaze me, you jump into a Thread and try
change the subject, side-track the issue or simply
make derogatory comments about the posters` credibility
as if it were us that were creating a false issue!

Maybe you are a member of our society who stands to
suffer a loss of financial benefit or alternatively
have some sort of business interest and thus stand
to profit from the continuation of this despicable
treatment of cattle?

Crackcup
"...blinded as are many by the almighty dollar!"

It's you who's blinded by the almighty dollar more than anyone. You're the one who wants the animals slaughtered to a certain standard. Guess what? You're not God's self-appointed representative on earth. Why don't you, and Ammonite, and everyone who agrees with you, simply pay the difference between the standard of slaughter now, and the standard you want? Problem solved.

And for those talking about the standard for "our" cattle, they're not "your* cattle, they belong to someone else. If the greed, selfishness and sheer hypocrisy of the Crackcups of this world are such that they are not willing to pay for standards they passionately believe in, why should anyone else who doesn't even agree with them?

I saw a doco once where they wired up a living cabbage with electrodes to a read-out panel, and a guy sunk a meat-cleaver into it. This thing screamed off the dial.

So if I don't like live vegetables being pulled out of the ground, following your logic, does that mean the entire farming industry should be shut down, does it?

Yours is *fake* moral superiority. *You* need to pay for the values that you say are so important, and get everyone else who agrees with you to put into the hat, and there will be *no problem* financing the small changes that need to be made, if only you will practice what you preach and cut out your ostentatious pious hypocrisy. And if you won't, then a fart in your general direction is all you deserve and you should be ignored.

Crackup/cuphandle your views get more extreme as you age.
You not those you target, are no help to these cattle if they are ours or another country's.
It would be a deliberate lie, to say I look to you for other than heated comments.
Or that I do not look to you for answers.
YOU no one else unleashed the racist rant here.
In fact the thread as is the case with the film is of worth.
We will fix this problem.
But not by insisting [who can order a customers to buy ] we do the killing.
Or that we only sell a product they no longer wish to buy, chilled meat.
Education training both will fix this problem.
Not using terms like Monkeys, and ranting about religion then trying to charge others with your crime.

*The only way to combat it is to refuse trade or to export frozen meat.*

Ah, now there is a typical public servant from Canberra response,
Pelican! You should leave the place a bit more often.

Never mind the valid points made, never mind the consequences
or the unintended effects, we'll just bludgeon our way through
this and then get back to our chardonay.

Peter Hume, Belly:

Well I guess I must have touched a few raw nerves
to elicit the sort of responses that are coming
thick and fast now!

You can carry on like a bunch of little girls with
your knickers down if it makes you feel any better,
but I would suggest that criticism and abuse will
do little to solve the subject of this Thread.

In my view after reading your responses, I think I
would have more chance of getting an intellectual
discussion from a cage full of Chimpanzees!

It never fails to amaze me that whenever somebody
initiates a Thread dealing with an emotive issue,
the usual gang of know-alls and habitual critics
leap aboard to try to take control of the Thread and
manipulate the context of it around to their way of
thinking!

I consider that I have made my point in this issue,
and I will NOT desist from trying to obtain a better
deal for those unfortunate animals, regardless of what
you or anyone else may think to the contrary, and as
I said before,....If you don`t like it then suck it up!

"A product others no longer wish to buy" - not so, others would simply prefer to buy live cattle for a much lower price than chilled beef. Australian Companies killed off the bulk of the Meat Processing plants simply to cater to this desire, with no interest or concern as to the way the Cattle would be killed as a consequence.

But the majority of Countries in our region have no option BUT to import Sheep/Cattle/Goats, they simply do not raise enough themselves. They are a necessary import - regardless of whether they are killed here or killed there. The only stakeholders that stand to make anything from maligning our Meat Processing standards are those that make massive profits (comparatively) through live export as opposed to selling to Australian Packing Companies.

Everyone thought that was alright, well until the reality of what that actually means for the animals was bought to light. The 4 Corners show didn't even illustrate the inhumane treatment of the animals en route or the massive number that are crippled or die due to the same.

Then again, there are others here who will argue against anything that means jobs for Australian workers, under whatever cover they can hide behind.

Err Custard, clearly you don't follow the industry too closely.
When companies like Wammco, Fletchers and others, were screaming
for workers,year after year, they could not find any. They rely on 457 workers
to keep them going.

Why? Aussies don't want those jobs, when they can head for the
mining industry and earn 6 figures, with their arse on a machine.

Crackcup:

...You are here amongst hardcore pragmatists. All evidence suggests there is little mercy for stupidity in the halls of OLO. One must retreat on occasions to lick wounds and reassess the next (if any) step in presenting an argument from a more realistic position; a position that suits the audience you address. We all, in OLO, go there at times, so good luck with your quest.

Custard, not unlike Crackup, seems not to give others thoughts much value.
Brazil, indeed USA would gladly fill orders for live Cattle, maybe other country's too.
The EU if it could,would be able to under cut us on subsidized chilled beef.
We get the trade because of costs, rememberer no meat not killed Halal style is wanted, so not every Abattoirs can supply.
Crackup just have another look at your every word here in just this thread.
Then read mine and those you defame.
If you can not see room for self improvement I am sorry,, for you.

Belly, the supply of beef is not unlimited even worldwide. We used to be able to compete quite well with the same Countries you mention, yet so much has changed? The EU is not going to be able to undercut our prices on chilled beef, it costs them more to raise per head than we can sell it in sides. South America has awesome capacity, then again, so do we.

Explain why South America isn't undercutting us on live-exports if they can do so so very easily? Why South America is the chief supplier of chilled/processed beef, not live cattle? Is it because their Governments, well known for their interest in the living conditions of their citizens, refuse to export the same? Or perhaps that they haven't shut down over 3/4 of their meat processing facilities, preferring to sell packed meat and keep the jobs? A lot of families here where driven to the wall by the advent of "Live Exports", your original argument, that the killing is just as inhumane fails, so now you suggest price?

No, provided the Companies involved in gouging prices are precluded from continuing to export livestock, there is a chance that we could rebuild our meat processing capacity. We have the capacity to provide a better quality product, at a better price than anyone else. Australian beef was preferred many places due to the controls that had been placed on the production thereof, the lack of diseases (which is another problem the EU suffers from as does South America) and the strict quarantine procedures. Now we sell top quality livestock to the Countries that used to eat goat not beef. We do so because there is a better profit margin, not because there is no market for Quality product.

Our Farming Conglomerates simply realised there was more money per beast on the hoof, than there was processed. There was a much bigger market, because we could sell it so cheaply. Cheap and nasty where our catchwords were Good Price & Quality, what a waste.

*Explain why South America isn't undercutting us on live-exports if they can do so so very easily?*

Just look at a map Custard, that will answer your question. The
sailing time from Aus to Indonesia or the ME is a great deal shorter.

Besides, Australian on farm prices are not the problem, Australian
processing costs are the problem.

Screwing on farm prices lower is not going to do it for you either.
When I moved to this area of the world, there were around 15000
farmers. There are now a touch over 4000. High local costs
have already sent enough to the wall.

Custard I under stand you are quite intelligent.
But you need to look again at those who differ with your views.
Free trade, and the term world trade, has changed much, but EU in fact subsidizes near every farm product.
At times it held massive meat butter and other stores.
Charges have been made they dump, that is cut their loss by selling at a loss, against free trade.
America,or even south America, can use dumping tactics to start a trade,it happens.
You surely, are aware these folk want to kill [for price and religion] their own purchases.
It just has to be said chilled meat is secondary if at all, on the purchase list.
Now do they have the right to buy as they wish.
If not maybe we should ignore free and fair world trade, import Bananas to bring our prices down and kill our local growers.
Complex issues need complex answers.
We are better for the airing of this cattle will be too but again how did the cameras get into see such Ba&^ardry in practice.

Yabby >>MLA have clearly made mistakes. So rectify those mistakes, make something good come out of all of this, not stick your head in
the sand and create other problems that you haven't even thought
of

The entire MLA boad should be sacked, along with those on the cattlemens union who were, or ought to have been, aware of this practice.

There are those who say MLA are making progress. They have had 9 or 10 years to make progress and it is only now that the heat is on that they are acting.

Not only have they been funding this debarcle, but they have also been aware of the problem for years and done litterally nothing, until now.

Heads must roll!

The reaction of the government is harmfull to our trade. What they should do is, as suggested, provide stun guns.

The export meat market of these cattle is weak, due to the high dollar, so we can ill afford to hurt these farmers.

Just remember, a small farm in the NT is about one million acres, so to run these without income will be impossible.

Answers exist to the question this thread asks.
Why Rechtub has taken a aim at yabby baffles me.
And why he thinks every one,no matter how remote from this matter should be sacked too.
I understand almost every poster here knows, this is another country.
And that we do not control its laws or culture.
I am very much opposed to others inflicting their culture, on me in my country.
Yes it was bad, but who truly knew.
It will be fixed probably has as a result of this event being shown in our homes.
But considered comment should not look at other country's as other than what they are free independent nations.

Crackcup
If we put aside the personal argument all we have is this:
" I will NOT desist from trying to obtain a better
deal for those unfortunate animals".

Because no-one's suggesting that you shouldn't try to obtain a better deal.

So, personal insult and a red herring. Is that the best you can do.

The issue is why you don't obtain a better deal with your money and from everyone who agrees with you.

Therefore it's not about animal welfare. If it was, you'd simply put your money where your mouth is. It's about power. You are merely having a power trip and an ego trip, and then when this is pointed out, trying to dodge off into irrelevance.

Have you paid for the slaughter facilities to relieve those animals suffering yet?

Then admit you're a hypocrite.

And please answer my question: should everything I disagree with be illegal?

I don't agree that Rechtub is 'taking aim' at yabby. They both are expressing a different approach to solving a problem and i have put a different opinion again.

Rechtub, I would only sack those if it was lack of effort that has prevented changes. It may wel not be, as the big hurdle is religion and culture and these are formidable obstacles. This is why I suggest the purchass/building of killing works in Indonesia just so we bypass those obstacles and are totally in control of the operation.

Halal slaughter can be done humanely if we have control.

Certainly look at the training and analize why such limited progress has been made. Maybe some heads need to roll and/or different methods of training but we have to ensure that our standards are met.

The ammount of trade is worth the investment and the effort.

Belly, I can't see where Rehctub had a go at me lol. Perhaps you
confused his copy and paste of my quote at the top, as being his.
That was actually me having a go and Crackup, earlier.

I heard an interesting interview with an old fella from the North,
who knows all about the industry up there. He reckons that the live
trade had nothing to do with works closing. Their main problem up
there is the wet. In the wet, you won't move trucks too far, so
meatworks can really only operate 6 months of the year at best.

Now every meatworks needs some good staff, but if you can only offer
a bloke 6 months work a year, he's not likely to stick around.
So it was extremely difficult to staff these places each year starting
afresh, nobody made any money and one by one they closed.

Today, with the competition from the mining industry all through the
north, it would be far worse. AACo are looking at building a new
works in Darwin, but there are many doubters about wether it will
be profitable.

Banjo, you will find that some of the feedlots in Indonesia have
Australian involvement, they are quite professional operations.
So the thinking is that they can play a role in who to sell cattle
to. No stun guns - no sale. But what really needs to happen is
for our Mr Ludwig to sit down with his Indonesian counterpart
and come up with a working solution which is win win all round,
especially for the cattle. Some good can come out of all of this,
if we think things through and don't just follow the kneejerk
reactions of those less informed about the whole situation.
As always, the devil lies in the details

Yabby,
I understood,from the doco, that there are indeed some abbitoirs using stunguns in Indonesia and there is no reason that supply to those works should not continue, if they comply to our standards.

In other works it is clear that our standards are not met and we should discontinue supplying stock to them untill we are satisfied our standards are met. After 10 years that does not seem likely so we either buy them out and modify and run to our standards or we construct abbitoirs which we run to our standards.

We simply cannot continue to send cattle to abbitoirs where stunning does not take place. Whether or not our cattle are on sold, we have to ensure that the cattle are treated humanely.

I am also aware, from the doco, that Aus interests own and operate feedlots there.

*and we should discontinue supplying stock to them untill we are satisfied our standards are met. After 10 years that does not seem likely*

It ain't that simple Banjo, for don't forget, its us changing the
rules, as we go along. Australia installed those original boxes,
as shown. Australians taught them how to use them. The concept
of using stun guns in Indonesia is a recent one. MLA was in the
process of going there, but their funding is limited by grower levies.

I have many times suggested that Animals Australia, who have some
seriously rich benefactors, should join in with MLA to improve
animal welfare in the third world. They generally refuse to, for
most of them are vegans or similar. So they just want to shut the
trade down at any cost. Yet when they put a bit of effort in, as
in Jordan, they made quite a difference. They approached the Queen
of Jordan and within a short time old works were being shut
and new works, including stun guns were built.

AA have played cat and mouse with MLA for years, only normaly their
little spy goes to the ME, so MLA have perhaps focussed on that
and they certainly have achieved some results over the years.
Slaughter is one part, great progress has been made in terms of
ships, handling, feedlots at the other end etc.

If Animals Australia, the Australain Govt or anyone else wants to
make a difference, they are free to make a financial contribution to
speed things up. Most of the bill over the years, has been paid
by farmers, not those now screaming loudest

ok sorry Rechtub.
In another thread this morning I try to remind that some times out comes are the best that can be arranged.
I too want better and think this will asure us we get it, without damaging a trade we need.
I will bet that we see stun guns used and a very much better out come.
People have called for mass sackings and ending the trade here , not an answer not even close.
It may mark me badly but I no longer trust ANY ANIMAL RIGHTS GROUP.
My exposure to them has found lies radicalism I could continue.
Words in fact nothing will convince me Vegans are not driving them.
Again just how dumb how unknowing, could these idiots be, not just to treat these animals so badly but to let it be filmed.
Truly ask who was paid what.
Is this constructed or every day practice,we will never know but it will improve.

Yabby, belly and others. To put the record straight, this is what I am getting at.

The MLA have been involved in training there for a decade or so and, it is only now, that the media storm has broken that they are seemingly acting.

There would be many who have known of this cruelty for years and simply turned a blind eye. They, along with farmers, stock agents and handing companies, who were privy to this outrage should be sacked.

We have trained these people, subsidised and even assisted them, yet this cruelty has been allowed to continue until now.

Governments answer, stop the export. Once again they have taken the easy way out.

There would be thousands of head in holding yards right now with no place to go.

Just imagine the effort that has gone in to mustering these from one million acre properties.

Provide the equipment and sack the offenders I say, but don’t affect the (innocent) farmers or our exports.

Well that is the interesting thing Rehctub, there have been a number
of very credible people go to Indonesia who say that when they went
to looking at slaughter facilities, they never saw the kind of
cruelty that was shown, but that things were ok when they were there.

So we should not forget that AA are on a mission here. To his credit,
Joe Ludwig has not just given in and banned the trade, but banned
shipment to a dozen works and is only at various solutions. If
he had simply shut things down, we certainly would have a disaster
on our hands in the North.

But what is apparent is that for cattle, the traditional halal
killing of cattle is extremely difficult to perform if its not
done by an expert. Old types of stun guns used a bolt which damaged
the brain, so were no accepted as a halal solution . But new types
of stun guns simply stun the animal and render it unconcious,
so can be used in halal slaughter. Its these types that we need to
introduce in Indonesia.

Now in the ME, MLA has people stationed there full time, not so in
Indonesia, as far as I know. Apparently MLA had various hold ups
in introducing stun guns in Indonesia, as they were seen as firearms
and so there were legal issues that held things up.

The bottom line seems to be this. Both Indonesia and Australia need
each other in this trade and now that its caused a scandal in the
media here, both countries will give it top priority and resolve
the issue pretty speedily. Stun guns will be introduced in many
Indonesian meatworks, both Australian and Indonesian cattle will
benefit and long term that has to be a good thing for animal welfare.

Trucking half a million cattle south to Adelaide, where most of their
value is gobbled up by trucking costs, is hardly a realistic option.

Yabby,
I have no time for Animals Australia and similar groups, as their sole aim is to shut down live exports, full stop. They do not accept that livexport was born out of the consumers in the receiving countries demanding fresh meat and a lack of refrigerated storage, both commercial and in the homes of consumers.

Your info about stun guns adds weight to my original post about improvements being frustrated by religous and cultural attitudes.

Sadly, there are attrocities being committed in many places and against which we have no power to change, other than voice our protest.

However, the unspeakable (and so unnecessary) cruelty being inflicted upon our live cattle in Indonesia is one we must stop. We are a civilized country and we cannot condone this, least of all with "qualifications". To be a party to it, no matter if indirectly, is to belie the concept of 'civilized'. Once this principle is accepted, then solutions can be found.

We may not be able to prevent cruelty to cattle from other origins, but we surely must from this country.

Of concern, is the comment of one of the interviewees who stated that Halal killing required that the animal be conscious. What are the requirement of Halal killing? I had thought that Halal and Kosher killing were similarly based.

I believe that if a nick is found on the blade used in Kosher killing, then the premise is that the animal has felt pain, therefore the kill is not Kosher.

Needless to say, stunning is the only assurance that an animal if free of pain.

An image which will stay with me for a long time, is that of the last animal to be killed.
Having seen all the others in front of it killed, skinned and butchered, with eyes full of misery, it was uncontrollably shaking in terror.

Yabby, you say>>Well that is the interesting thing Rehctub, there have been a number
of very credible people go to Indonesia who say that when they went
to looking at slaughter facilities, they never saw the kind of
cruelty that was shown, but that things were ok when they were there.

A simple and cost effective solution is CCTV monitoring.

These cameras can be motion sensitive, the imiages collected, stored and audited.

Audits could be carried out by the press of a button,through the use of a modem.

These rouges would either clean up thier act, or be banned.

Meanwhile, our much needed exports could continue, although I am opossed to live exports in general, but only because of lost jobs.

Danielle, for the meat to be halal, the heart needs to be pumping.
That is why much halal meat is produced in Australia, using stun
guns. But meat is not halal, if the animal has watched other
animals be slaughtered and is stressed. By strict Islamic procedure
it should be condemed, but in the real world of course that won't
happen. What you actually have in Indonesia is lots of little
places, some killing 5 cows a day. But there really is no supervising
authority, as we have here. The thing is, people have been killing
cattle for thousands of years in Indonesia using what they have.
I don't think it is beyond us, as part of our already generous
foreign aid programme, to buy them stun guns, as most of them
simply can't afford them.

Rehctub, I think you will find that the large feedlots, with lots
to lose, will channel their cattle through a few major meatworks,
where modern and humane methods are used. Some have already
converted. So the good news story of all of this is IMHO it will
bring about long needed change, which was harder to implement
beforehand.

Alot of those stations are already running right on the edge, due
to huge operating costs. If they had to truck their cattle south,
only to be paid hamburger price for the meat, they would soon go
completely broke and you'd have hundreds of thousands of wild
cattle roaming the North.

Yabby,

Thank you. This is what I thought about Halal killing - that it was intended to be humane.
I wonder why no Muslim has entered this debate.

As a society, Indonesians are proficient at using 21st century western technology. Thus, as a society, they are just as capable of understanding animal cruelty. Therefore it is encumbent upon their society to do something about this situation.

I find it very difficult to believe that Indonesians have no comprehension of pain/suffering to animals. (Incidentally, I lived in Malaysia for seven years). Certainly, the Indonesian government is extremely embarrassed. To excuse Indonesians for not understanding animal cruelty, is to attribute to them a collective psychological pathology.

Peasant societies may not be sentimental towards their animals, but they care for them - they cannot afford not to.

Danielle, there are lots of questions about this debate, which
remain unanswered. People who work in meatworks, are a strange
breed at the best of times. With cattle, its very often fear
that is the problem. Australian cattle are alot larger then
traditional Indonesian cattle.

What I find interesting is that other people who have visited these
works, have seen nothing like what was documented. So why the
difference? Are these blokes, in their primitive way, trying
to impress a white Western female with their macho tactics?
Something is odd about all this.

I heard today on the radio that Getup, along with the RSPCA and
Animals Australia, are going to fund a large tv advertising
campaing to end the trade. They haven't even thought through the
implications of that. All that money could be used to install some
decent stunning equipment, so that animal welfare improves in
Indonesia and they have the gear that they require. Millions
of animals would benefit. Now its going to be our local tv
stations cashing in. It makes no sense to me at all

Live export of cattle on those 'cruise' ships is, of itself, cruel.
Just imagine the terror that is endured by the animals in a heavy sea or in a storm.

The animals on the top deck are going through the biggest arc(the closer to the water the less the roll), repeatedly, for hours or days on end as well as the forward up and down motion. The mind boggles at what they must suffer; I wonder do cattle get sea-sick?

My concerns have grown as this issue develops, first from a past that saw jobs as easy to get for honest work as leaves from a tree I have had many.
My first city job was visiting half the butcher shops in Sydney once or twice a week to pick up fat bone and waste.
To be turned in to meat meal for export mainly.
We picked up at Sydney's then Hombush bay Abattoirs twice a week.
I eventually worked there.
And both before and after saw country Abattoirs in working time.
Animal death is cruel, always,sheep stand in line know their fate cattle too.
This film was awful, some, highly critiqued was quite normal,dead cattle laying in their own skins.
We, every one of us, should be appalled at what is wrong but understand some is purely emotional.
But that film that publicity has forced reactions.
PLEASE do not refer to that country as primitive, it is not our right to judge them, as it is not theirs to judge us.
We, not just as a result of this, long ago started to fund and educate these folk for better out comes.
Indonesia is on its way, a long journey, to breeding its own cattle.
Long after they no longer import any ones, they will be killing cattle in much better ways,because we are buying stun guns are training and are stopping sales to those who will not improve.
As always we want the best out comes that is all any one can expect.
continued

Country party,now National,has always jeered me and my party, saying we could not even milk a cow.
Ignoring the fact it often is the worker doing it for them.
But lead by Wilkie and man who won his Tasmanian seat after running third, a group wants to ban this trade totally.
No benefit for the improvements no care for our farmers nothing but total ban.
I have strong views, stand by them but question them constantly, to do other is to willingly blind your self.
I distrust ANY ANIMAL RIGHTS GROUP.
They all use the tactics I sometimes did in my youth.lie fabricate evidence,, but win.
Believe me, if you ring any ABC radio station,talk for a while off air,giving a GREEN background, you will be invited to ring in.
And given prompts what to say,our middle income ABC employees are driving this issue and are greens in nature..
Vegans are too.
Constant efforts to bring change to such country's, to pay for it,are undermined by these folk.
HOW DID a known Australian radical animal rights activist get free run in that country.
YES IT WAS AWFUL but was it nothing less than a paid advertisement,did those workers receive payment for their actions.
Last,please do not think I do not care,have you killed your daily quota of rabbits after checking the traps, I have.
Never like killing but you do eat meat don't you.

Belly, the problem with people like Wilkie, is that they are way
out of their depth. Clearly they don't have a clue about the real
ramifications of their actions, if they shut down the live trade.

I've seen the other side. I've seen what happens when there is a
drought and livestock need to be moved in hurry, before the land
is bare and blowing. Those live ships play a critical role in all
that. I've also seen it when they are not operating and farmers
have to dig holes and shoot their stock.

Contrary to what many claim, the live trade has actually come a
long way. What started with poor conditions and crappy boats,
today they are floating feedlots, where animals gain weight along
the way. In Bahrain in some of the sheep feedlots, the sheep
actually have chilled water to drink, something that Australian
sheep can only dream of. Some of the new ships are purpose built,
with the best of everything.

Now is the time to be pro active. So introduce stunning where
required. Not create a whole set of new problems which those
calling for the close of the trade, have even thought of.

Here we agree yabby afraid that senator from south Aussie is a problem too.
In this matter if conservatives and Labor do not combine to protect this industry we are ruled by fools in both camps.
Australia needs major party's to do deals, keep us out of the clutches of accidental members and fools.